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evil-frosty
2014-02-07, 12:33 PM
Hello fellow playgrounders, I am pretty sure my group is using illusion magic wrong, I have voiced my concerns to the DM, and pointed to the section in PHB about illusion magic. In the last session, the party illusionist (he is a focused specialist and I believe he has banned evocation, transmutation and either enchantment or necromancy I cannot remember) made an illusion of mounted combatants that charged our Linear Guild (not joking, literally the DM made the group to specifically antagonize us) that we were chasing, the DM allowed the illusion to do physical damage, there were a couple other examples during the session including an illusion of a fireball I believe. I believe the spell he used was either minor or major image. Either way they are still figments and unable to actually cause damage, correct? Also allowing figments to cause damage like this completely invalidates the shadow subschool, right? I mean doing what shadow magic does with figments allows for more versatility. This has been bothering me and I wanted to ask the playground their opinions on it, as well as have a small discussion about it, so that I could show this thread to the DM.

The name of the game in 3.5 is versatility=power, does this make illusion magic too versatile? As it is illusion is one of the better schools of magic, at least it's one that you wouldn't ban out of hand.

Also, can one willingly lower the save DC's of their spells? Someone in the party is going Killer Gnome with some retouching and I was curious about that.

kirerellim
2014-02-07, 12:37 PM
Figments cannot cause damage. While major image does have 'thermal' illusions, it is still a figment.

Figment

A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.

CombatOwl
2014-02-07, 12:48 PM
Hello fellow playgrounders, I am pretty sure my group is using illusion magic wrong, I have voiced my concerns to the DM, and pointed to the section in PHB about illusion magic. In the last session, the party illusionist (he is a focused specialist and I believe he has banned evocation, transmutation and either enchantment or necromancy I cannot remember) made an illusion of mounted combatants that charged our Linear Guild (not joking, literally the DM made the group to specifically antagonize us) that we were chasing, the DM allowed the illusion to do physical damage, there were a couple other examples during the session including an illusion of a fireball I believe. I believe the spell he used was either minor or major image. Either way they are still figments and unable to actually cause damage, correct? Also allowing figments to cause damage like this completely invalidates the shadow subschool, right? I mean doing what shadow magic does with figments allows for more versatility. This has been bothering me and I wanted to ask the playground their opinions on it, as well as have a small discussion about it, so that I could show this thread to the DM.

This is correct, unless the figment is given quasi-reality (shadow subschool) it can't deal damage. Though there are a number of methods of making figments and glamers partially real. Shadowcraft Mage, etc.


The name of the game in 3.5 is versatility=power, does this make illusion magic too versatile? As it is illusion is one of the better schools of magic, at least it's one that you wouldn't ban out of hand.

No. True seeing cripples everything but shadow spells, and mind blank also does a number on it. Anything immune to mind affecting is severely problematic for illusionists as well. Aside from, obviously, shadowcraft mages.


Also, can one willingly lower the save DC's of their spells?

I suppose so? Seems to me that the spellcaster ought to be able to. But that is up to GM fiat.

Yanisa
2014-02-07, 02:28 PM
...the party illusionist... ...made an illusion of mounted combatants... ...I believe the spell he used was either minor or major image.
To ruin this even more, the image line of spells creates one images. More defined by an object, creature or force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silentImage.htm). The lack of plural in any part of the description means that you can only create the image of one creature.

Although I did once convince my DM that a legion of men holding each other hands counted as a single image.


Also, can one willingly lower the save DC's of their spells? Someone in the party is going Killer Gnome with some retouching and I was curious about that.

I believe the strict answer to that is no... You can however lower your casterlevel but that doesn't impact your safe.

But however from the player's handbook: "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw." (page 173-174) And I suspect casting the spells counts as proof knowing its fake, but who knows.
There is also +4 clause where if anyone is told something is an illusion they get a +4 to their will save to disbelieve.

As a "killer gnome" myself I tried to teach my party a simple sign so they could realize my illusions are fake, but in game they are too stupid for that (poor fighters and low low low will saves) and they still think I am some great conjurer and evoker (both banned schools btw).



And like others pointed out, figments can't hurt at all. But also my DM often rules that people believe my illusions are so real they die (or get hurt, or hurt themselves). It's some kind of weird matrix thing (if you die in the illusion, you die in real life), so you are not the only one with such a DM.
Heck my DM often ignores the will save of illusion/shadow spells because the enemies are too stupid or unfamiliar with illusions to even know such things exist.

nedz
2014-02-07, 02:57 PM
No. True seeing cripples everything but shadow spells, and mind blank also does a number on it. Anything immune to mind affecting is severely problematic for illusionists as well. Aside from, obviously, shadowcraft mages.

True seeing is what you need to counter illusions, Mind blank no so much. Mind blank protects against mind effecting which most illusions aren't.

For example, these are the common mind effecting spells of levels 1-3

1st Color Spray

2nd Delusions of Grandeur, Hypnotic Pattern, Phantasmal Assailants, Phantom Foe, Vertigo, Wall of Gloom

3rd Cone of Dimness, Hood of the Cobra, Illusory Script, Pall of Twilight, Phantasmal Strangler, Reality Blind

Note: no image line, no invisibility, no shadow spells.

Nettlekid
2014-02-07, 04:03 PM
I have a question about Shadowcraft Mage and [Shadow] spells in general. The Shadowcraft Mage can subsume illusions and turn them into Shadow Conjuration/Shadow Evocation, but before that part, the class feature allows them to turn [Figment] spells into [Shadow] spells. What happens if they do that, and don't just make it a Shadow Conjuration? Like if you failed the save on a [Shadow] Silent Image of a bridge spanning a chasm, could you walk across that bridge?

CombatOwl
2014-02-07, 04:21 PM
True seeing is what you need to counter illusions, Mind blank no so much. Mind blank protects against mind effecting which most illusions aren't.

A fair number of the useful ones are.


For example, these are the common mind effecting spells of levels 1-3

1st Color Spray

2nd Delusions of Grandeur, Hypnotic Pattern, Phantasmal Assailants, Phantom Foe, Vertigo, Wall of Gloom

3rd Cone of Dimness, Hood of the Cobra, Illusory Script, Pall of Twilight, Phantasmal Strangler, Reality Blind

Note: no image line, no invisibility, no shadow spells.

And extending this a bit more, mind blank also protects against phantasmal killer and weird and all of the pattern spells. That's a pretty choice list of stuff off the illusion list. Most of the remainder is pretty situationally useful, outside the shadow subschool. Mind Blank, as I said originally, cripples most of the school--because it gets rid of most of what is actually useful to an adventurer. Sure, there is a little bit of utility to invisibility and veil and such, but most of your core adventure-suitable spells are taken right out. Again, setting aside shadow.

Invisibility alone does not hold a school up, and most of the figments and glamers are only as useful as the GM lets them be.


I have a question about Shadowcraft Mage and [Shadow] spells in general. The Shadowcraft Mage can subsume illusions and turn them into Shadow Conjuration/Shadow Evocation, but before that part, the class feature allows them to turn [Figment] spells into [Shadow] spells. What happens if they do that, and don't just make it a Shadow Conjuration? Like if you failed the save on a [Shadow] Silent Image of a bridge spanning a chasm, could you walk across that bridge?

You can walk across it even if you succeed the save, because it is still a structure.

It just has 20% of its normal hit points.

Yanisa
2014-02-07, 04:28 PM
I have a question about Shadowcraft Mage and [Shadow] spells in general. The Shadowcraft Mage can subsume illusions and turn them into Shadow Conjuration/Shadow Evocation, but before that part, the class feature allows them to turn [Figment] spells into [Shadow] spells. What happens if they do that, and don't just make it a Shadow Conjuration? Like if you failed the save on a [Shadow] Silent Image of a bridge spanning a chasm, could you walk across that bridge?

Nice try, but I don't think it works like that. You alter a figment spell into a shadow spell that mimics a conjuration or evocation, you cant stop the ability half way.

But if it would work like that... it will still be image spell, and because those don't have clauses for being real or dealing damage, it well end up the same. Except those rare cases someone has a +2 on will saves vs figments...

Or, far more lenient (and now we are reaching DM discretion here), you still be imitating something, and most likely that something can be traced back to an evocation or conjuration spell. For example your bridge will still be imitating some basic form of conjuration (creation) and will function like shadow conjuration, thus people making their will save have a 10% per spell level chance of falling trough the bridge.
This is broken though, because you can make anything with any image spell and without the constriction of imitating other spells, the possibilities are endless...

Yuki Akuma
2014-02-07, 05:17 PM
I have a question about Shadowcraft Mage and [Shadow] spells in general. The Shadowcraft Mage can subsume illusions and turn them into Shadow Conjuration/Shadow Evocation, but before that part, the class feature allows them to turn [Figment] spells into [Shadow] spells. What happens if they do that, and don't just make it a Shadow Conjuration? Like if you failed the save on a [Shadow] Silent Image of a bridge spanning a chasm, could you walk across that bridge?

Shadow Magic can only be used to duplicate spells - unless you can find an appropriately leveled spell that makes a bridge, you can't use it to make a bridge.

Of course, there are totally spells that can make bridges that are Conjuration (Creation), so Shadow Magic can mimic them. In that case, yes, you'd need to fail your save or fall through the bridge.

nedz
2014-02-07, 05:34 PM
And extending this a bit more, mind blank also protects against phantasmal killer and weird and all of the pattern spells. That's a pretty choice list of stuff off the illusion list. Most of the remainder is pretty situationally useful, outside the shadow subschool. Mind Blank, as I said originally, cripples most of the school--because it gets rid of most of what is actually useful to an adventurer. Sure, there is a little bit of utility to invisibility and veil and such, but most of your core adventure-suitable spells are taken right out. Again, setting aside shadow.

Invisibility alone does not hold a school up, and most of the figments and glamers are only as useful as the GM lets them be.
Weird is useless even before mind blank. At high level the shadow spells are the main ones you use and Mind blank does nothing to stop these.
Of the spells I listed the only choice one is Colour Spray, the rest are weak to begin with. Mind blank does not cripple most of the school, far from it.

Zweisteine
2014-02-07, 05:40 PM
As the others have stated, no "Image" spell may deal damage.

However, if the character is a shadowcraft mage, he can effectively turn certain illusion spells (specifically: silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, and programmed image) into Shadow Evocations/Conjurations. That would allow a figment spell to deal damage.
Coincidentally, that is precisely what the Killer Gnome is: a shadowcraft mage.

Nettlekid
2014-02-07, 05:43 PM
Shadow Magic can only be used to duplicate spells - unless you can find an appropriately leveled spell that makes a bridge, you can't use it to make a bridge.


See, I'm not totally sold on that. Under Shadow Magic, it says that "The subschool of these spells [from the list below] changes from figment to shadow." In addition, it goes on to say that you CAN use them to mimic Sorc/Wiz Conjuration or Evocation spells. I could see the argument being made that you could choose to use the altered Silent Image or whatever as Silent Image [Shadow].

Urpriest
2014-02-07, 06:48 PM
Hello fellow playgrounders, I am pretty sure my group is using illusion magic wrong, I have voiced my concerns to the DM, and pointed to the section in PHB about illusion magic. In the last session, the party illusionist (he is a focused specialist and I believe he has banned evocation, transmutation and either enchantment or necromancy I cannot remember) made an illusion of mounted combatants that charged our Linear Guild (not joking, literally the DM made the group to specifically antagonize us) that we were chasing, the DM allowed the illusion to do physical damage, there were a couple other examples during the session including an illusion of a fireball I believe. I believe the spell he used was either minor or major image. Either way they are still figments and unable to actually cause damage, correct? Also allowing figments to cause damage like this completely invalidates the shadow subschool, right? I mean doing what shadow magic does with figments allows for more versatility. This has been bothering me and I wanted to ask the playground their opinions on it, as well as have a small discussion about it, so that I could show this thread to the DM.

The name of the game in 3.5 is versatility=power, does this make illusion magic too versatile? As it is illusion is one of the better schools of magic, at least it's one that you wouldn't ban out of hand.

Also, can one willingly lower the save DC's of their spells? Someone in the party is going Killer Gnome with some retouching and I was curious about that.

It's more likely that you misheard, and the other player is using Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation, than that the player and your DM actually believe that generic Illusion spells can do damage. There is absolutely no reason someone would believe such a thing.

evil-frosty
2014-02-07, 07:16 PM
We are fifth level...i don't think I misheard anything. Shadow Conjuration is the earliest possible shadow magic and it is a fourth level spell. And the players plan is to go into shadowcraft mage and something else that is escaping me currently.


To ruin this even more, the image line of spells creates one images. More defined by an object, creature or force. The lack of plural in any part of the description means that you can only create the image of one creature.

Although I did once convince my DM that a legion of men holding each other hands counted as a single image.

I never realized this thank you for pointing this out to me.


No. True seeing cripples everything but shadow spells, and mind blank also does a number on it. Anything immune to mind affecting is severely problematic for illusionists as well. Aside from, obviously, shadowcraft mages.
Both of those are 'high' level solutions to illusions. Currently we are only fifth level, so those are not a real option.


And like others pointed out, figments can't hurt at all. But also my DM often rules that people believe my illusions are so real they die (or get hurt, or hurt themselves). It's some kind of weird matrix thing (if you die in the illusion, you die in real life), so you are not the only one with such a DM.
Heck my DM often ignores the will save of illusion/shadow spells because the enemies are too stupid or unfamiliar with illusions to even know such things exist.

This annoys me I guess, illusion is already a good school of magic, why does it need more? There are 3 wizards in this party (a conjuration specialist banning illusion and necromancy, and myself an elven generalist) so I guess trying to maintain some semblance of balance between schools is needed or at least let each school fill its niche, if that makes any sense.

So I was correct in my thought process on illusions. I just wanted to make sure, and to have a discussion about illusions since they have the most variables of any school of magic.

Yuki Akuma
2014-02-07, 08:43 PM
See, I'm not totally sold on that. Under Shadow Magic, it says that "The subschool of these spells [from the list below] changes from figment to shadow." In addition, it goes on to say that you CAN use them to mimic Sorc/Wiz Conjuration or Evocation spells. I could see the argument being made that you could choose to use the altered Silent Image or whatever as Silent Image [Shadow].

Just changing the subschool from figment to shadow doesn't actually do anything, though. Mimicing another spell is the only way for the Shadow Magic'd figment to actually do anything.

Nettlekid
2014-02-07, 09:01 PM
Just changing the subschool from figment to shadow doesn't actually do anything, though. Mimicing another spell is the only way for the Shadow Magic'd figment to actually do anything.

The descriptions about Figment and Shadow spells seem to differ though. There are blanket statements made about both. It's very true that Figment spells can't do damage, for example, but it's also made clear that Shadow spells can. So if Silent Image becomes a Shadow spell...can it do damage? I agree that mimicking Shadow Conjuration/Evocation is definitely A way for it to damage, but the ONLY way? Not so sure.

Duke of Urrel
2014-02-07, 09:20 PM
To ruin this even more, the image line of spells creates one images. More defined by an object, creature or force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silentImage.htm). The lack of plural in any part of the description means that you can only create the image of one creature.

Although I did once convince my DM that a legion of men holding each other hands counted as a single image.

I think it's too strict to say that the Silent Image spell limits you to creating one illusory creature. After all, the description of the Persistent Image spell on page 260 of the Player's Handbook includes the following text:

"For instance, you could create the illusion of several orcs playing cards and arguing, culminating in a fistfight." The emphasis is mine.

Of course, these creatures cannot be made to move outside the stated boundary of the spell's Effect (four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level). I would also allow the Silent Image spell to create numerous objects, within the same spatial limitations. At the risk of quoting what many here regard as an extra-canonical source, let me add what Skip Williams wrote in his article "All About Illusions (Part Four) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a)":

"You could use a figment spell to make an illusory house, a grove of trees (with leafy branches for concealment), or even a hill or big rock." The emphasis is mine.

I don't believe it is unbalanced to allow the Silent Image spell to create several illusory creatures within its area of effect, because smaller creatures are generally less powerful and less intimidating than bigger ones, and the worst that figmentary creatures (that is, illusory creatures created by Figment spells) can do is intimidate, not inflict physical damage.

However, Yanisa makes an important point; read on.


I have a question about Shadowcraft Mage and [Shadow] spells in general. The Shadowcraft Mage can subsume illusions and turn them into Shadow Conjuration/Shadow Evocation, but before that part, the class feature allows them to turn [Figment] spells into [Shadow] spells. What happens if they do that, and don't just make it a Shadow Conjuration? Like if you failed the save on a [Shadow] Silent Image of a bridge spanning a chasm, could you walk across that bridge?

I am completely unfamiliar with the power of the Shadowcraft Mage, but if any power is capable of changing simple Figment spells like the Silent Image spell into Shadow spells, then I would be more inclined to interpret more strictly what these Figment spells can create. For example, I would allow the Silent Image spell, empowered by the Shadowcraft ability, to create Shadow creatures no more powerful than those that could be created by a Shadow Conjuration imitating the Summon Monster I spell or Summon Nature's Ally I spell. As soon as a mere figment is endowed with real physical power, I think we need to be clear about the limits to that power.

By the way, can anyone tell me where Shadowcraft Mages are discussed in detail?

Nettlekid
2014-02-07, 09:46 PM
I am completely unfamiliar with the power of the Shadowcraft Mage, but if any power is capable of changing simple Figment spells like the Silent Image spell into Shadow spells, then I would be more inclined to interpret more strictly what these Figment spells can create. For example, I would allow the Silent Image spell, empowered by the Shadowcraft ability, to create Shadow creatures no more powerful than those that could be created by a Shadow Conjuration imitating the Summon Monster I spell or Summon Nature's Ally I spell. As soon as a mere figment is endowed with real physical power, I think we need to be clear about the limits to that power.

By the way, can anyone tell me where Shadowcraft Mages are discussed in detail?

Shadowcraft Mages are from Races of Stone. The thing they do mainly is subsume figment spells into duplicating Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation, but reword them such that you can use spells of less than the subsumed spells level and they have level*10% effectiveness if disbelieved.

The thing I want to look at is that before that part of the description, the subsuming part, it just outright states that the Shadowcraft Mage can turn their Figment illusions into Shadow illusions. And I want to know the implications of that beyond mimicking other spells.

Duke of Urrel
2014-02-07, 10:32 PM
Shadowcraft Mages are from Races of Stone. The thing they do mainly is subsume figment spells into duplicating Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation, but reword them such that you can use spells of less than the subsumed spells level and they have level*10% effectiveness if disbelieved.

The thing I want to look at is that before that part of the description, the subsuming part, it just outright states that the Shadowcraft Mage can turn their Figment illusions into Shadow illusions. And I want to know the implications of that beyond mimicking other spells.

The only way I can make sense of this is to assume that as a Shadowcraft Mage, you can effectively substitute any prepared Figment spell with a specially level-adjusted Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation of the same spell level, just as a positive-energy cleric can substitute any other prepared spell with a Cure spell. Otherwise, you would get conflicting spell descriptions and statistics.

For example, suppose you have prepared the Silent Image spell and you use the power of a Shadowcraft Mage to "subsume" this spell, so that it behaves like a Shadow version of the Summon Monster I spell. Would the stated limitations of the Figment spell apply to the Conjuration spell, or would the stated limitations of the Conjuration spell apply to the Figment spell?

On the other hand, if we assume that "subsuming" means that you can effectively substitute a specially level-adjusted Shadow Conjuration spell for your prepared Silent Image spell, it's pretty clear how that would work. You would get the Shadow Conjuration version of the Summon Monster I spell, except that the effect would be only 10% per level real. (Would that be caster level or spell level, by the way? I haven't yet acquired a copy of Races of Stone. EDIT: Silly me, of course it would be spell level, wouldn't it, unless we want to have to argue what it means, as a spellcaster of level 11 or higher, to create something that is more than 100% real.)

I think I may be a little out of my depth here. I hope someone with more experience can help us both out.

Deophaun
2014-02-07, 10:41 PM
And I want to know the implications of that beyond mimicking other spells.
The implications are that it would interact with any feats or abilities that modify spells of the shadow subschool. That's really it. Just because it says a subschool is capable of doing something (damage), doesn't mean that every spell of that subschool will or must. Dark way, for instance, is a shadow spell, but doesn't deal damage.

nedz
2014-02-07, 11:12 PM
I can cast Shadow Conjuration and replicate Phantasmal Steed. In some ways this is an improvement on the base spell because PS has a casting time of 10 minutes against SC's casting time of 1 standard action but my shadow steed only has 20% of the HP of a real PS and it can look a little dodgy.

Shadow Evocation is not so useful for a variety of reasons which include not being able to do things like this.

If you are using Shadowcraft Mage to modify a figment (Silent Image say) to infuse it with, say, 10% shadow then you still have to mimic an evocation or conjuration spell in the same manner as Shadow Evocation or Shadow Conjuration.

For the question of making a bridge then SE is not going to work, you would have to use SC. This is clear if you read the relevant two spells.

If the bridge is very small you might be able to get away with Minor Creation, which would require you to modify a 5th level image spell, but given the restrictions of 1 cu foot/level this seems unlikely to be adequate.

Shadow Wall of Iron should work, but that would require utilising a 7th level image spell. The image spell has to be at least one level higher than the spell you are emulating. The Shadow Illusion class feature is limited to using one of these spells: silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, and programmed image: none of which are high enough level. The trick is to use Heighten spell to make one of these into a 7th level spell, with which you can make your Shadow Iron Wall. Being a 7th level spell this would have 70% of the strength of a normal Wall of Iron, which will hopefully be enough. Obviously this is a high level trick.

As to the question of doing damage: you can emulate a conjuration such as Melf's Acid Arrow, or one of the many evocation spells. This follows the same rules as the Shadow Evocation or Shadow Conjuration spells, which do differ.

Yanisa
2014-02-08, 03:42 AM
I think it's too strict to say that the Silent Image spell limits you to creating one illusory creature. After all, the description of the Persistent Image spell on page 260 of the Player's Handbook includes the following text:

"For instance, you could create the illusion of several orcs playing cards and arguing, culminating in a fistfight." The emphasis is mine.

Strict reading is RAW. Nothing within the spell distribution allow for more then one illusion.

However, using the magical RAI, what seems to be possible is to have multiple objects or creatures that are in some way linked together, they still are part of the same illusion and thus one image. Like my legion of hand-holding soldiers... The persistent image offers the greatest tool in creating multiple creatures and objects and still keeping them bound together... a script!

On a more serious note though, the image line of spells are heavily interpretable on what the limits are in creating images and in the end depend on two major factors the rules cannot handle. The players imaginative abilities and what the DM accepts. Because the spell does nothing on its own except creating a picture, its all up to the DM to rule how the world reacts to that picture. You can make the greatest illusion of a horde of mutliple dragons but the DM rules that dragons are common and friendly sight then the peasants just yawn and you wasted a image spell.

Thus the image spells can be as balanced and unbalanced as the DM allows them. And if in my case (and the OP) your DM rules that the matrixeffect is a real thing and that your brain kills you when you think you died from a fatal blow (while it was all just nothing)... well then the image spells got a lot more overpowered.


The implications are that it would interact with any feats or abilities that modify spells of the shadow subschool. That's really it. Just because it says a subschool is capable of doing something (damage), doesn't mean that every spell of that subschool will or must. Dark way, for instance, is a shadow spell, but doesn't deal damage.
QFT

A Silent Image [Figment] has the exact same spell description as a Silent Image [Shadow]. Like I started earlier, it might matter for specific bonuses, perhaps someone out there gets a +2 vs figments, well a Silent Image [Shadow] is not a figment, so you wont get that +2 on your will save. Or someone gets a bonus against shadows... then you just shot yourself in the foot.



For the question of making a bridge then SE is not going to work, you would have to use SC. This is clear if you read the relevant two spells.

Shadow Wall of Iron should work, but that would require utilizing a 7th level image spell.

Or Wall of Force (Evocation, 5th level) or Wall of Stone (Conjuration 5th level) :smalltongue:

But for bridge building only the wall of stone seems to be able to do that. Both iron and force seems to specially state to be vertical. Not that it matters for your explanation of how shadowstuff works.

Yuki Akuma
2014-02-08, 04:03 PM
The descriptions about Figment and Shadow spells seem to differ though. There are blanket statements made about both. It's very true that Figment spells can't do damage, for example, but it's also made clear that Shadow spells can. So if Silent Image becomes a Shadow spell...can it do damage? I agree that mimicking Shadow Conjuration/Evocation is definitely A way for it to damage, but the ONLY way? Not so sure.

The Shadow subschool itself has no rules attached to it. Changing Silent Image from an Illusion (Figment) to a Illusion (Shadow) does absolutely nothing because there are no rules for what happens when you do that. The subschool absolutely says Shadow spells can deal damage and have real effects... but gives absolutely no indication of what those real effects are.

Besides. 'Making a semi-real illusion of x and having it function as real' is what Shadow Magic does, in-setting. It's just that the rules say you have to mimic a spell effect because there's no other way to really adjudicate the effects otherwise.

Also: the best way to make use of the Shadow Magic class feature is with the Earth Spell feat, allowing you to mimic spells of the same spell slot that you're casting the figment out of (use it for Silent Image to get the most out of the CL boost - even better if you took Gnome Illusionist 1 to make Silent Image a cantrip). And the Residual Magic feat if you want to be really cheesy.