Bard opinions and help [3.5]

[Taislin]

Hi playground,

I'm going to create a Bard to play with some friends, probably level 8 or 9.
I've decided that I will be full bard, no prestiges.

My vision about this character is kinda a Indiana Jones with a guitar on his back. Using the whip to disarm at distance, use it as grapling hook to balance and do some crazy stuff.

My stats now are:

Human
Bard lvl 8 or 9 - with bardic knack (losing bardic knowledge)

STR: 14
DEX: 10
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 16 (+2 from leveling up)

As for feats I was thinking about taking Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm (maybe) and there is a feat which makes me able to cast spells while I am playing an instrument (much like disguise spellcasting).

I am choosing disarm and trip because I was thinking of making use of the Whip proficiency (and because it's pretty cool to use a whip xD), this way I could be mostly out of harm's way tripping, disarming, casting some support spells, while our frenzied beserker makes minced meat out of the enemy.
Edit: Main weapon will be a Longsword, Whip is just for support.

Skills wise, I would have bardic knack to use pretty much every skill with a medium chance of success, while focusing on social skills, and some knowledges.

I am posting this to ask what does the playground think, could this be a decent build to use (would it be efficient combat-wise)? I can use pretty much any book, if it fits the flavour of the character.

PS: We don't really maximize gear efficiency, we care more about roleplay and character background and advancement than gear.

[Gnaeus]

I am posting this to ask what does the playground think, could this be a decent build to use (would it be efficient combat-wise)? I can use pretty much any book, if it fits the flavour of the character.

Not very efficient. Trip is opposed strength. You are a medium creature, with a +2 str mod, so your chances of tripping anyone who will actually be impeded by being tripped are very low. Don't try to trip anything large or bigger, or any bruisers (they will have good Str), or any casters (who just won't care). That doesn't leave much.

Improved disarm is an opposed attack roll. You are a medium BAB class with a +2 str. So again, of the small subset of enemies that use weapons, most will beat you at the check. The ones who won't aren't likely to be much of a threat. Also, if the target has a 2-H weapon, they get a +4.

Better for this strategy than improved trip might be Vanguard Strike (martial Study devoted spirit (Tome of Battle)). Once per fight, you hit a target with your whip, and all your allies get +4 to hit target with melee or ranged for a round. You don't get the cool aoo when he stands up, but it will work on anything you can hit. As a bonus, you also get intimidate as a class skill, and your intimidate checks will likely be much better than your strength checks. (If you then replace Combat Expertise or Improved Disarm with Daunting Presence (libris mortis) or Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark) you will have much more effective debuffs than trip and disarm that will work on almost any enemy). Alternately, you could stack song buffs like dragonfire inspiration.

[Taislin]

Up until now we have fought mostly humanoids, orcs, humans, some lizardfolk. We fought a weird creature with some tentacles and tremor sense but that was it.

I might take jack of all trades, to have all the skills costing only one point. That way i would have access to Intimidate, among others.

I know I dont have full BAB and only +2 strenght but i do have +4 charisma, and I can intimidate in fight , so i could probably disarm a rogue(-4 light weapon)/ranger at 15 feet. I would save Hold person VS the big bad barbarian coming my way.

I feel it is better than just standing there and playing songs the whole fight.

Thanks for the extra reply :), I only noticed the bigger response after writing this, so please ignore it :)

[Gnaeus]

Having something useful to do other than just singing is good. You are thinking, so you are well on your way.

So, at low levels, you are fighting mostly humanoids. Normal enough. Humanoids are common low CR opponents.

Lets look at the core list for CR 6.

Advanced Megaraptor Skeleton
Annis
Average Salamander
Average Xorn
Babau
Baleen Whale
Belker
Blue Dragon
Bralani
Brass Dragon
Chain Devil
Digester
Ettin
Five-Headed Hydra
Gargantuan Monstrous Centipede
Girallon
Gray Render Zombie
Lamia
Megaraptor
Phthisic
Seven-Headed Hydra
Shambling Mound
Tendriculos
White Dragon
Will-O'-Wisp
Wyvern
Xill

Monsters that use weapons are in italics. See how few those are compared with the list? Now of those, disarming the lamia doesn't really slow her down (stabbing you with her dagger is her worst attack), the ettin and salamander both have higher scores than you for avoiding disarm (Strength/higher bab/2h weapon), and the chain devil can control his chains remotely. Of course, that is only core, and doesn't include all possible combinations of guys with class levels, but unless you have reasons to think that thieves guilds will be a major enemy in your campaign or that your DM will tailor encounters to make your bad feat choices better you can see that by level 6 Improved disarm is pretty much rubbish for you.

In bold are monsters that have legs, are medium, and have strength under 20. That list is better, but still not good, and it only gets worse as level goes up.

Improved disarm isn't really a good feat even for a fighter or monk with a high strength who get it as a bonus feat. Improved trip isn't bad FOR THEM, since they will likely be trying to keep their strength high and will be working on a size bonus or begging the wizard for a polymorph, and they can follow it up with a high (compared with a whip) damage attack if they succeed. Even for many fighters, it isn't great, only OK.

[gorfnab]

These may help:
Bard Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284)
Inspire Courage Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0)


an old post of mine on creating a melee-focused bard, but most of the advice still applies to any single classed bard.

Don't PrC. Bards are great single-classed.

The exception of course is the Bardadin, which is worth looking at, but that's a whole other story.

Bard Only:
Silverbrow Human is the best race (as you can instantly qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration, and get that bonus feat)
Savage Bard variant from UA is much better even if only for trading Reflex saves for Fort saves.
Swap Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack.
Swap Countersong for Spellbreaker Song.
Swap Fascinate for Hymn of Healing (just because)
Swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart (Feat, eberron ACF, but not setting specific)
Take Jack of All Trades (to enable bardic knack across trained-only skills)Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, and a heritage feat to move you to some sonic dragon. Also consider Martial Study (Devoted Spirt maneuver of your choice - we're going for intimidate as a class skill here) and Doomspeak. If you're going very, very good-aligned, Words of Creation is godlike.
Spell: Inspirational Boost.
Ensure you have a Crystal Echoblade and a Badge of Valor.

Right there, you have a perfect bard. Depending on your DM (and the availability of Flaws), you might consider two crystal echoblades and Two Weapon Fighting. It's a good idea, but the wording of Snowflake Wardance makes some DMs ban it with a second weapon (incorrectly, I believe.)
Somehow, I forgot to mention Melodic Casting.

[Duke of Urrel]

I wouldn't entirely dismiss the use of a whip to disarm as a poor trick with little utility. It's a great way to defeat foes who are not very strong, but who wield magic items, such as magic rods, staffs, and wands. These things can also be targeted with a disarm action. Moreover, according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#disarm): "If the item you are attempting to disarm isn’t a melee weapon the defender may still oppose you with an attack roll, but takes a penalty and can’t attempt to disarm you in return if your attempt fails. […] If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a -4 penalty on the roll."

Probably you shouldn't imagine that the rules of D&D allow you to use a whip like Indiana Jones, as an all-purpose tool, but in some situations, it may be practical as well as fun.

Postscript: If I were you, I would have a talk with my DM about the effect of the Animate Rope spell upon a whip used to disarm. I would argue that this spell may empower a whip to act like a disarming Unarmed Strike with a 15-foot reach, provided that you make your disarm attack roll and your disarm check, as usual. This would enable you to take possession of any item that you knocked out of an enemy's grasp with your magically prehensile whip, simply by jerking it back toward you. Of course, your DM may think that this proposal goes too far.

[Palanan]

The Whip Climber skill trick does let you swing on it, though.

:smalltongue:

[Nihilarian]

There's a 3.0 whip focused PrC called the Lasher, in Sword and Fist. it's a fun class that really should have been updated to 3.5. Ask your DM if it's OK first, though.

[Gnaeus]

I wouldn't entirely dismiss the use of a whip to disarm as a poor trick with little utility. It's a great way to defeat foes who are not very strong, but who wield magic items, such as magic rods, staffs, and wands. These things can also be targeted with a disarm action. Moreover, according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#disarm): "If the item you are attempting to disarm isn’t a melee weapon the defender may still oppose you with an attack roll, but takes a penalty and can’t attempt to disarm you in return if your attempt fails. […] If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a -4 penalty on the roll."

But the difference HERE is that if you disarm someone with a weapon, they typically can't attack you, or at least they spend a move action to draw a weaker weapon. Most of the time, if you disarm someone with a wand, they level you with a spell, which usually has a higher save DC. There is nothing like spending a feat and an action to force an enemy to attack you better. That isn't always true. You might get someone with UMD or a really low level caster with a high level wand. You still wind up spending permanent resources (a feat) on something that will only be helpful a tiny % of the time. Bad call.