[Weapons/Feat] Powder and Steel

[Neon Knight]

Okay. I’m trying to lay out some gun rules that will make guns near the level of bows, with a dash of realism thrown in. Note: JUST A SMALL DASH OF REALISM. I’m not going to throw in some overly complex rule for realism’s sake. The current complexity of the rules listed below is more than enough for me.

These are not supposed to represent any particular era of weapon, but if you can peg what type of weapons these would be (For Example, Bolt Action, Flint Lock, Wheel Lock) then I would be overjoyed to finally slap an era and more detailed descriptions on these.

Hitting with a gun: Roll for a Ranged attack as normal. If the result exceeds the target’s touch AC, add the weapon’s strength bonus. You actually hit the target if you exceed the target’s normal AC.

Weapon Strengths:
Pistol +1
Heavy Pistol +2
Rifles +4
Shotguns +3

Pistol (Simple Light Ranged Weapon)
Cost: 50GP
Damage: 1D8
Critical Range: x3
Range: 40 ft.
Damage Type: Piercing
Weight: 2lb.

Heavy Pistol (Simple One-Handed Ranged Weapon)
Cost: 75GP
Damage: 1D10
Critical Range: x3
Range: 40 ft.
Damage Type: Piercing
Weight: 4lb.

Pistol Rounds (10)
Cost: 1GP
Weight: 1lb.

Pistol and Heavy Pistol: A Pistol or Heavy Pistol can be fired once before it needs to be reloaded. Reloading a pistol is a standard action. A character can make a Craft (Small Arms) skill check (DC15) to reduce it to a move action. Pistols and Heavy Pistols must be loaded using pistol rounds. A pistol or heavy pistol can shoot out to 7 range increments. A pistol can be sued as a club with a -4 penalty to the attack roll.

Rifle (Simple Two-Handed Ranged Weapon)
Cost: 100GP
Damage: 2D6
Critical Range: x3
Range: 60 ft.
Damage Type: Piercing
Weight: 10lb.

Over/Under Rifle (Simple Two-Handed Ranged Weapon)
Cost: 100GP
Damage: 2D6
Critical Range: x3
Range: 60 ft.
Damage Type: Piercing
Weight: 11lb.

Rifle Rounds (5)
Cost: 3GP
Weight: 1lb.
Rifle: A Rifle can be fired once before it needs reloading. Reloading a rifle is a full round action. A character can make a Craft (Small Arms) skill check (DC15) to reduce it to a standard action. A rifle must be loaded using rifle rounds. A rifle can shoot out to 9 range increments. A rifle can be used as a great club with a -4 penalty to the attack roll.

Over/Under Rifle: An Over/Under Rifle can be fired twice before it needs reloading. Reloading an over/under rifle takes 2 full-round actions to reload both barrels. Reloading one barrel is a full-round action. A character can make a Craft (Small Arms) skill check (DC15) to reduce reloading one barrel to a standard action, and to reduce loading two barrels to a full-round action. An over/under rifle must be loaded using rifle rounds. An over/under rifle can have both of its barrels fired at once if the user posses the Rapid Shot feat. Make an attack roll for each separate round fired, using the same attack bonus for both -2. An over/under rifle can shoot out to 9 range increments. An over/under rifle can be used as a great club with a -4 penalty to the attack roll.

Shotgun (Simple Two-Handed Ranged Weapon)
Cost: 80GP
Damage: 2D8
Critical Range: x4
Range: 20 ft.
Damage Type: Piercing
Weight: 8lb.

Double Barreled Shotgun (Simple Two-Handed Ranged Weapon)
Cost: 80GP
Damage: 2D8
Critical Range: x4
Range: 20 ft.
Damage Type: Piercing
Weight: 9lb.

Shotgun Rounds (5)
Cost: 3GP
Weight: 1lb.

Shotgun: A Shotgun can be fired once before it needs reloading. Reloading a shotgun is a full round action. A character can make a Craft (Small Arms) skill check (DC15) to reduce it to a standard action. A shotgun must be loaded using shotgun rounds. Shotguns impose a -4 penalty to the attack roll and a -2 penalty to the damage roll for every range increment. A shotgun can shoot out to 6 range increments.

Double Barreled Shotgun: A Double Barreled Shotgun can be fired twice before it needs reloading. Reloading a shotgun takes 2 full round actions to reload both barrels. Reloading one barrel is a full-round action. A character can make a Craft (Small Arms) skill check (DC15) to reduce reloading one barrel to a standard action, and to reduce loading two barrels to a full-round action. A double-barreled shotgun must be loaded using shotgun rounds. A double barreled shotgun can have both of its barrels fired at once if the user possess the Rapid Shot feat. Make an attack roll for each separate round fired, using the same attack bonus for each -2. Shotguns impose a -4 penalty to the attack roll and a -2 penalty to the damage roll for every range increment. A shotgun can shoot out to 6 range increments.

Bayonet (Simple Light Weapon)
Cost: 2GP
Damage: 1D4
Critical Range: x2
Damage Type: Piercing
Weight: 2lb.

Bayonet (On Rifle) (Simple Two-Handed Weapon)
Cost: 2GP
Damage: 1D8
Critical Range: x3
Damage Type: Piercing
Weight: 1lb

Bayonet: A bayonet is a small spike designed to be used while mounted on a rifle. A bayonet can be used as a light weapon when un-mounted or as a two-handed weapon when mounted on a rifle. Mounting a bayonet on a rifle is a full-round action. A rifle cannot be fired while a bayonet is mounted. A masterwork bayonet allows the rifle to be fired while the bayonet is in place.

Feats
Bayonet Drills [General, Fighter]
Training with bayonets has allowed you to mount one with stunning speed and precision.
Prerequisites: Dex 12
Benefits: Mounting a bayonet on a rifle is a standard action.
Normal: Normally, mounting a bayonet on a rifle is a full-round action.

So, what do you guys think?

[Matthew]

No weapon should ever have a Critical Range of 19-20/x3.

I don't think you should be relying on expanded Critical Range to model the deadliness of guns, especially when Bows benefit from Strength to Damage.

Rifles should probably have considerably more than twice the range of pistols.

30 Ft. for Pistols, 60 ft. for Muskets, 90 ft. for Rifles works for me, but other ranges are all possible.

These seem fine to me otherwise, but I might as well throw in my usual advice about modelling guns. Give them a Strength Rating that either applies to Damage or to Attack Bonus instead of Dexterity or both.

[Neon Knight]

M'kay. I'll nerf critical ranges then.

As to your other suggestion, how about you get an attack bonus to your shot if your attack roll is better than the touch AC of the target?

I oppose an always applies attack bonus because that doesn't figure in accuracy. By doing Touch AC, then flat-footed AC with a bonus to the attack roll, we model first the weapon actually hitting the target, then the armor's effect on the weapon.

I hope that made sense. That probably didn't make sense. Let me give an example.

Let's say the Bob is shooting a rifle at a target 50ft. away. This target has 20 normal AC, 12 touch AC, and 18 flat-footed AC.

If Bob rolls an attack (1d20+ Ranged Attack Bonus, either 1x or 0.5x) higher than his enemies touch AC (12), he then rolls another attack (1d20+ Weapon's Strength Bonus) against his enemies flat-footed AC (18) with an attack bonus.

The main problem is that by throwing in another roll, I add another variable, and thus lower the efficiency both of play and the weapon.

I don't know. Just giving an attack bonus doesn't seem right, because that makes the weapon more accurate, not more likely to punch through armor, which is the effect you were going after. I think.

Then again, I weaken the weapon when I add another roll it has to make in order to hit.

Hmmm...

[Matthew]

Yeah, I mean the touch attack thing seems to make sense, but it does complicate the game, as you acknowledge. You might want to have a look at the recent Guns, you and D&D Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32118)

What you have to remember about the D&D Attack Roll is that it models both the probability of hitting a target and bypassing or penetrating the armour in one roll. The DR rules for armour separate these two aspects out, but do not model the possibility of bypassing armour, so is an imperfect fix.

We are only talking a +4 to hit and Damage or something of that type, so it's not necessarily a big deal. Mechanically, it also works out as making the gun desirable (especially considering the time taken to reload).

So, I would still advocate giving guns a Strength Rating, usually around +4, but it's not the only answer.

If it is really a bother, you could just have it negate X points of Armour.

[Neon Knight]

I think I will go with this:

When attacking with a gun, roll a 1d20+ Ranged Attack Bonus.

If the result is higher than the target's touch AC, add the weapon's strength bonus to the roll.

Now, to strength bonuses.

How about:
+1 Strength Bonus For Pistol
+2 Strength Bonus For Heavy Pistol
+4 for both Rifles
+3 for Both Shotguns

[Matthew]

Well, the range of the weapons should be the primary differential between Pistols, Muskets and Rifles. Getting shot with a Pistol at close range is pretty much as bad as getting shot with a rifle.

I might go with:

Pistol: 1D6+4, 20/x3, 30 ft.
Musket: 1D6+4, 20/x3, 60 ft.
Rifle: 1D6+4, 20/x3, 90 ft.

Shot Gun: 1D6+4 20/x3, 60 ft. (Half for a Sawn Off)

If you wanted to reflect their relative power you could up the Damage Die (1D6, 1D8, 1D10, 1D12) or have more powerful versions available for an additional cost, as with Strength Bows (i.e. the Heavy Pistol would be a higher Strength Pistol)

The Double Barreled Shot Gun might have its own rules. Maybe it acts like the Feat Multi Shot, one attack roll at -2 for two damage? (I don't know how they work, but actually I have a feeling they shoot one round and then another, rather than two at once, but as an option...)

[Neon Knight]

My double barreled actually just let you make two separate attack rolls in one round using the same attack bonus. The over/under rifle has the same ability.

Now that I look at Rapid Shot, my two-barreled guns are really overpowered. You can either acquire Dex 13 and Point Blank Shot and spend a feat on Rapid Shot to make two separate attacks with a bow with a -2 penalty, or you can pick up one of my double barreled guns and get the same ability for free.

Any ideas on how I should fix this?

EDIT: Real life double barreled weapons can fire both barrels at once if each barrel has its own trigger. This is the design found on most older double barreled shotguns.

Modern Single Selective Trigger (or SST) shotguns do not permit simultaneous firing of both barrels.

The weapons I am displaying here probably represent older double trigger designs.

[Matthew]

Sure, the quickest fix is to make it so that you need Rapid Shot or an extra Iterative Attack to shoot the Double Barreled Shot Gun twice, but you don't need to reload. Same mechanic as the Repeating Cross Bow.

[Neon Knight]

Done and done. Thanks for your help.

[Matthew]

No problem. Glad to be of service.

[Icewalker]

I like them, and your armor equation is way better than anything I attempted to come up with. I think the guns should do a bit more damage though, getting a bullet through the chest can be as bad as a greatsword to the face, so maybe they should deal 1d10 or 1d12.
I agree with Matthew on the damages, that they should probably be the same, and that the big difference between pistol and rifle is the range, but also the accuracy. With longer barrels, rifles are far more accurate than pistols can be at not point-blank targets.

[Matthew]

Sure, but a bullet through the chest is a s deadly as a Short Sword through the chest as well. D&D Damage doesn't make all that much sense in the context of the real world. Bigger = More Damage Dice appears to be the fundamental equation. Of course, people are free to assign Damage Dice as they see fit; I just usually default to 1D6.

Also, remember that since a Rifle has a greater range than a Pistol it is more accurate at that range. For instance, if a Character shoots with a Rifle at 90 ft. there is no penalty to hit (assuming 90ft. Rane Increment), but if he shoots with a Musket it is -2 (assuming 60 ft Range Increment) and with a Pistol it's -4 (assuming 30 ft. Range Increment).

[Darkkwalker]

I'd like to point out that it doesn't take 1 second to reload a pump action gun. So it seems like all of these guns are breach, bolt or lever action. No semi-auto. Even bolt you can do pretty fast. So these guns are breach or lever action. On another note, the pistols, are they like pirate pistols? Are you refering to revolvers? Or perhaps to modern pistols? I'd like clarification. Also there are different calibers to take into account. As well as weather or not it fires a magnum round.

[Matthew]

These appear to early Fire Arms. As in Flint Locks, most likely. Remember, it's not intended to model reality, but create a convincing game mechanic for their use.

[Icewalker]

I believe those would take a much longer time to reload, at least a full-round for the pistol, although I don't know too much about weaponry from this time period. The pistol whipping was a nice touch.

And on the accuracy of rifles v pistols, even at the range at which a pistol hasn't broken it's first increment, a rifle would be more accurate, the longer barrel allows the bullet to get a straighter shot, so the rifle could have a straight plus to hit (or more realistically, the pistol a minus) as well as a longer range increment.

[Matthew]

Yeah, well, if it were to be modelled realistically, it would take two Full Round actions to reload a Musket, not sure about a Pistol. Ranged Attack Rates are not exactly realistic in D&D, though, so best to give some leeway.

Rifles may well be more accurate than Pistols at less than 30', but again we have to make some allowances for simplicity and speed of play. It could always be said to be modelled by Strength Ratings, should the need arise.