What if every one had cantrips at will all day?

[Jgosse]

I have often thought about playing a magic heavy game where every one had some innate magic ability right down to the children in the school yard. I have thought maybe just making it that every one knows x number of cantrips at will or maybe all cantrips or just Prestidigitation. How would you handle a campaign if every one had some innate magical ability.

[almightycoma]

two things came to mind right off the bat. One, do those cantrips count as arcane casting ability for prerequisites for prestige classes, if so that could mess with some stuff probably.Two if everyone could use magic id give every class UMD. It seems to makes sense if they can all do magic useing scroll or wands should be very common.

[Jeff the Green]

Given an hour or so between combats you wouldn't need healing items or powers. This isn't a huge change, as unlimited healing is available easily anyway (Dread Necromancer, reserve feats, auras, templates, persisted mass lesser vigor etc.) and even without those, it's cheap (<1.4 GP/HP).

[Jgosse]

two things came to mind right off the bat. One, do those cantrips count as arcane casting ability for prerequisites for prestige classes, if so that could mess with some stuff probably.Two if everyone could use magic id give every class UMD. It seems to makes sense if they can all do magic useing scroll or wands should be very common.

I would probably change ability to cast arcane spells to 1st level spells, and the UMD idea sounds good.

[Jgosse]

Given an hour or so between combats you wouldn't need healing items or powers. This isn't a huge change, as unlimited healing is available easily anyway (Dread Necromancer, reserve feats, auras, templates, persisted mass lesser vigor etc.) and even without those, it's cheap (<1.4 GP/HP).
I was considering removing Cure minor wounds from the spells available for the innate ability.

[Spore]

PF magic users can use cantrips at will (although "only" an amount of spell slots) and the game hasn't broken down because of that. I'd say go for it.

Second the removal of Cure Minor Wounds. Make this "Stabilize". Free healing out of group (where a Wand of any spell is considered almost legendary) this would make up for more drama.

[watchwood]

It wouldn't be all that bad. Pathfinder's got unlimited cantrip usage on most of it's spellcasting classes, and the difference is negligible.

[Zanos]

Detect Magic gets spammed a lot is something I've noticed.

[Big Fau]

I was considering removing Cure minor wounds from the spells available for the innate ability.


Second the removal of Cure Minor Wounds. Make this "Stabilize". Free healing out of group (where a Wand of any spell is considered almost legendary) this would make up for more drama.

Infinite healing helps the noncasters keep up with the more difficult beef gates in the MM. HP isn't so much a resource for them as a necessity to contribute, especially considering they can get one-rounded at the higher levels.

Letting them heal up between encounters will not cause problems for the game, it just means they won't buy wands of CLW/LV and get to conserve some of their WBL for stuff that actually matters (like backup weapons).

I could go on, but I doubt it'll convince you guys. Short and simple: Infinite healing benefits the Fighter more than anyone else.

[qwertyu63]

Detect Magic gets spammed a lot is something I've noticed.

So? Not a bad thing.


I was considering removing Cure minor wounds from the spells available for the innate ability.

Why? It's not a bad thing.

[Rubik]

Infinite healing helps the noncasters keep up with the more difficult beef gates in the MM. HP isn't so much a resource for them as a necessity to contribute, especially considering they can get one-rounded at the higher levels.

Letting them heal up between encounters will not cause problems for the game, it just means they won't buy wands of CLW/LV and get to conserve some of their WBL for stuff that actually matters (like backup weapons).

I could go on, but I doubt it'll convince you guys. Short and simple: Infinite healing benefits the Fighter more than anyone else....But!

BUT...!

Fighters don't deserve nice things! Not even basic competence and self-sufficiency!

[Ruethgar]

If you define Cantrips and Orisons as any 0 level spells, then it can get pretty powerful, but that's just the power gamer in me talking. I would suggest making them SLA's instead of spells to just avoid the whole pre-requisite issue all together.

[Zanos]

So? Not a bad thing.
That depends. It can slow down dungeons crawls considerably, and it makes magical traps much less useful.

I'm all for unlimited cantrips, but it's not all sunshine and rainbows.

[Jgosse]

Infinite healing helps the noncasters keep up with the more difficult beef gates in the MM. HP isn't so much a resource for them as a necessity to contribute, especially considering they can get one-rounded at the higher levels.

Letting them heal up between encounters will not cause problems for the game, it just means they won't buy wands of CLW/LV and get to conserve some of their WBL for stuff that actually matters (like backup weapons).

I could go on, but I doubt it'll convince you guys. Short and simple: Infinite healing benefits the Fighter more than anyone else.

Oh I am open to the idea I just think not every one in the world should have it. So if every one was born with x number of cantrips and said cantrips were random then I would probably make cure minor a smaller chance.

[Rubik]

Oh I am open to the idea I just think not every one in the world should have it. So if every one was born with x number of cantrips and said cantrips were random then I would probably make cure minor a smaller chance.But then you have fighters with Read Magic and warlocks with Ray of Frost, which are not useful at all.

[watchwood]

Make cantrip learning a function of basic education in the campaign world?

[Jgosse]

But then you have fighters with Read Magic and warlocks with Ray of Frost, which are not useful at all. I would probably craft a table and make different abilities have higher and lower probability. prestedigitation and other more mundane abilities having higher probabilities then offensive and healing powers.

[Jgosse]

Make cantrip learning a function of basic education in the campaign world?

Ah but then it is not an innate ability .

[Ravens_cry]

Make cantrip learning a function of basic education in the campaign world?
What of barbarian characters then? Not Barbarians the class necessarily, but those from outside the 'civilized' cultures? Say, a wild child raised by wolves, for example?

[Jack_Simth]

That depends. It can slow down dungeons crawls considerably,
... how? Take the 'classic' party: Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric.

Normal:
In a 'paranoid' group, the party rogue will be checking every five-foot square they plan to traverse. In a non-'paranoid' group, they'll just be searching at likely spots.

With unlimited Detect Magic:
In a 'paranoid' group, the party rogue will be checking every five-foot square they plan to traverse, and the party caster will be pausing for three rounds while he does so, and spend the fourth round catching up (60 foot range, vs. 5 feet/round for the rogue, so the caster needs a move of 20). In a non-'paranoid' group, they'll just be searching at likely spots, and just detect magic the likely spots.

In either case, it won't really take any extra time in-character. You just have a second searcher. It will only take a small amount of extra time out-of-character, assuming the play group does a standard shortcut that amounts to "OK, yes, we begin our trapfinding routine, explained earlier; let us know if/when it finds something," and the DM then just rolls (or takes 10/20, as appropriate) when something relevant comes up.

and it makes magical traps much less useful.

Magic Aura is a days/level 1st level spell that gets rid of those pesky magical auras. That's a very easy fix for an 'occupied' dungeon.


I'm all for unlimited cantrips, but it's not all sunshine and rainbows.
Yeah, there's a couple of minor complications that bear thinking about, but for the most part, it's fine.

[watchwood]

Ah but then it is an innate ability .

Not really. Classes without cantrips would get to use cantrips as though they were class X of the same level, with X being whatever was thematically appropriate. Cleric cantrips for Paladins, Druid cantrips for Rangers/Barbarians, etc.

[quote]What of barbarian characters then? Not Barbarians the class necessarily, but those from outside the 'civilized' cultures? Say, a wild child raised by wolves, for example? [\quote]

A wild child raised by wolves wouldn't have the education, but it could easily be remedied under the the tutalege of a suitable instructor.

For barbarian class outside the 'civilized' cultures, there's 2 options:

1) Their own shamans/elders/etc handle the instruction for the younglings
2) They don't get the cantrips. It really pisses them off, and it's a good plot hook for some political friction in the campaign world

[Spore]

[quote]What of barbarian characters then? Not Barbarians the class necessarily, but those from outside the 'civilized' cultures? Say, a wild child raised by wolves, for example? [\quote]

A wild child raised by wolves wouldn't have the education, but it could easily be remedied under the the tutalege of a suitable instructor.


Fi Fa Fo Fum, ME SMELL MAGIC!

[Ravens_cry]

A wild child raised by wolves wouldn't have the education, but it could easily be remedied under the the tutalege of a suitable instructor.

And what counts as a 'suitable instructor'?

[Lightlawbliss]

And what counts as a 'suitable instructor'?

The guy the character has in his backstory.

[watchwood]

And what counts as a 'suitable instructor'?

DM's discretion. I'd suggest someone who can cast 1st level spells or better.

[HaikenEdge]

I would imagine he'd just figure it out if he just takes it off the Druid list.

After all, he was raised by wolves.

[Deophaun]

After all, he was raised by wolves.
Suddenly I want to see an encounter where the PCs are ambushed by wolves and get hit by flare.

[EgoisticSpark]

I like the basic idea of this. My one question would be what this would mean for the world at large?

I can guess that magic item fraud would be nonexistent.

Would people be a bit more jaded towards magic, or a bit more impressed that Wizards and such were able to cast fireballs and lightning?

[watchwood]

Hygiene would be better across the board, and disease would be lower. You'd also have less food waste to deal with (Purify Food And Water), so nutrition would be somewhat better as well. Communities would be able to thrive in deserts and other low water regions, since they'd be their own water supplies. Mending would take some work from craftsmen, but they'd still make a good living from making new things since people would have more money to spend on new things instead of on having their existing things fixed.

Basically, everyone's quality of life would go up a couple of steps. They'd probably be pretty appreciative of higher level magics, because of it.

[Grozomah]

Here's my take on this, as i've toyed with the idea before.

1) UMD stays as it is, but common magic items do not require it. Imagine this as in every BSF college there is a class "wands 101", where you learn that there is a trigger for every magic items and you learn the most common ones. So everyone can use generic items like wands, but doing racial/alignment shennenigans or deciphring an unknown scroll does take a bit of expert knowledge.

This gives the advantage of not everyone needing to invest in UMD (messing up skill distributon), while still rewarding those that do. It also makes sense. In a high magic world you expect everyone to be able to use a wand of CLW much like everyone in the real world knows basic CPR. Also i can imagine wands of hold person made to the capabilities of village law enforcement (i.e. aim and press the button).

Metagame you can also, as a DM, decide on the go whether certain items are considered "common" and which are not and can avoid abuses as they pop out.

2) Cantrips - at character creation each non-casting class picks one casting class that he feels closest to and in this way chooses his available level 0 spells and casting stat. You can choose wiz with INT, Clr/Drd for WIS and Sor for CHA. You still need at least 10 in the casting ability to be able to use magic. So most orkish barbarians - are exactly that.

Everyone chooses 2+casting stat modifier cantrips from their respective lists. These are the spells they know and can use as spell-like abilities, although with certain limitations for more useful cantrips - e.g. you can only use the regular CMW a number of times per day equal to your level, but can use it unlimited if casting time becomes 5 minutes. This way you can still use it to stabilize an ally if need be, but healing out of combat slows down and is generally impractical during adventuring. (sitting still for an hour and doing nothin else heals one for 12 HP). Similair rules apply for mending or create water (otherwise abuse is way too simple)

While i have never managed to playtest this I think it should turn out as a fun and not too broken way of doing things.
I also considered allowing full casters low level spells under similar rules. One level 1 spell at level 8, another at 12, a level 2 spell at level 16 etc., but a good muchkin would probably be able to break this.

[Firechanter]

I find this idea pretty cute.

What would that mean for the life of every man Jack?

[watchwood]

Everyone chooses 2+casting stat modifier cantrips from their respective lists. These are the spells they know and can use as spell-like abilities, although with certain limitations for more useful cantrips - e.g. you can only use the regular CMW a number of times per day equal to your level, but can use it unlimited if casting time becomes 5 minutes. This way you can still use it to stabilize an ally if need be, but healing out of combat slows down and is generally impractical during adventuring. (sitting still for an hour and doing nothin else heals one for 12 HP). Similair rules apply for mending or create water (otherwise abuse is way too simple)

While i have never managed to playtest this I think it should turn out as a fun and not too broken way of doing things.
I also considered allowing full casters low level spells under similar rules. One level 1 spell at level 8, another at 12, a level 2 spell at level 16 etc., but a good muchkin would probably be able to break this.

I would suggest giving them cantrips from a chosen class, as though they had levels in that class equal to their character level (they geting nothing else from that class, just the cantrips). Levels in classes that have cantrips as a class feature do not count for this.

I'd also suggest using the cantrip list from Pathfinder for this. PF already has unlimited cantrips, so they come pre-balanced for the cases where it matters.

You probably don't need to bother with the full casters change. By the time they get high enough for it to be handy, they've got a ton of spells per day anyways.

[Zetapup]

The only possible abuse I can think of off the top of my head is if people used metamagic plus metamagic reducers for all day blasting/whatever. It prolly wouldn't be too bad, with a few exceptions (fell drain sonic snap, anyone?). The simple fix to this is to just not allow metamagicked cantrips.

Frankly, I don't see any other way to abuse it. Free out of combat healing isn't particularly unbalanced and there are quite a few other ways to get it (although at low levels it could potentially be game changing). Like other posters have said, overall quality of living for the average person would go up. It'd be a flavorful way of saying, "hey, this world has a lot of magic and it's seen as something common" while giving a few options that generally won't disrupt play.

[Prime32]

The only possible abuse I can think of off the top of my head is if people used metamagic plus metamagic reducers for all day blasting/whatever. It prolly wouldn't be too bad, with a few exceptions (fell drain sonic snap, anyone?). The simple fix to this is to just not allow metamagicked cantrips.Or you could just make them spell-like abilities.

Heck, go further. On top of cantrips, give everyone the warlock's invocations (with access to both the warlock and dragonfire adept lists (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/invocations), for variety) and eldritch blast. Now you've got a world where all the fighters can fly, the rogues can turn invisible and so on.

[Qwertystop]

In a high magic world you expect everyone to be able to use a wand of CLW much like everyone in the real world knows basic CPR.

So only those people who go out of their way to learn it?

I mean, CPR is certainly something that it's not difficult to find a class in in most first-world countries, but it is in no way standard education for everyone ever.

[watchwood]

Frankly, I don't see any other way to abuse it. Free out of combat healing isn't particularly unbalanced and there are quite a few other ways to get it (although at low levels it could potentially be game changing).

Out of combat healing is only an issue until the party can scrape together enough cash for a wand - after that it's merely an annoyance.

[Zetapup]

Or you could just make them spell-like abilities.

Heck, go further. On top of cantrips, give everyone the warlock's invocations (with access to both the warlock and dragonfire adept lists (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/invocations), for variety) and eldritch blast. Now you've got a world where all the fighters can fly, the rogues can turn invisible and so on.

Making them spell-like abilities has some interesting side effects:
Mortalbane (3.0, which some dms might not accept) from BoVD, lets you add 2d6 damage to each damaging spell like ability 5 times per day, which is very nice for the first few levels, but is quickly overshadowed by any second level spell, etc. If feat retraining is allowed, I'd consider taking it.

Deceptive Illumination, from DotU, requires dancing lights and lets you spend one use of dancing lights to cast silent image. Not particularly overpowered, but at will silent image in the hands of a creative person could be dangerous.

Fascinating Illumination, also from DotU, requires dancing lights and lets you spend a use of it to cast hypnotic pattern. I'm not terribly familiar with the spell, so I can't really say how powerful this is.

Light to Day, from Races of Faerun, requires light and lets you create daylight instead (in some respects, at least. It's a little vague on exactly what it is). Against vampires, very useful. Otherwise, eh.

Overall, each of these potential uses requires a feat, so I'd say it's reasonably balanced (unless I'm missing something). DMs who decide to do the cantrips as spell like abilities should be aware of these uses though.

[Firechanter]

Oh. And does everyone count as Arcanist for purposes of a Ranger's Arcane Hunter ACF?

[Jeff the Green]

I find this idea pretty cute.

What would that mean for the life of every man Jack?

I think it'd be rather similar to Codex Alera. People are more willing to take risks—particularly in war—because there's ready access to healing. There's more reuse of items because of Mending. Prestidigitation and Ray of Frost allow refrigeration and comfortable existence in more environments. Farming becomes easier. Probably a bunch of other changes to daily life too.

[Zetapup]

Oh. And does everyone count as Arcanist for purposes of a Ranger's Arcane Hunter ACF?

The bonuses are against anyone who can cast arcane spells or invocations, so yup. It wouldn't work if the cantrips are spell like abilities though. I suppose arcane hunter could be edited so that it only applies against people who can cast 1st level or higher arcane spells to prevent 1 level of ranger dips for FE: arcanist.

[cosmicAstrogazr]

Overall, I like the idea, but then, I like a high-magic campaign to begin with.

Actually, I've done something like this in a campaign before, and it seemed to work out well enough.

[Dalebert]

Overall, I like the idea, but then, I like a high-magic campaign to begin with.

Actually, I've done something like this in a campaign before, and it seemed to work out well enough.

Did you read the Xanth books by Piers Anthony? Maybe you could get some inspiration from that setting.

[Qwertystop]

Did you read the Xanth books by Piers Anthony? Maybe you could get some inspiration from that setting.

The earlier ones, more specifically. There's a bit of a tone shift after... hmm. Definitely after #9, but there's a chunk in between that I don't have so I'm not completely sure. The later ones are very different, though - all bad puns and thin plots (I keep wanting to add "and authorial soapboxing," but it's been long enough since I read them that I can't be absolutely sure I'm thinking of the right books there).