[3.5] Various Unarmed Strike Questions.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I've been working on a non-monk Unarmed gish and some issues came up, since there are several and some might need DM interpretation I decided to make a thread instead of posting them on the RAW answer thread.

1) How does Greater Mighty Wallop and Versatile Unarmed Strike interact? Assuming you cast the spell while you are using your fists to deal bludgeoning damage, does the spell ends (or is suppressed) if you change to piercing or slashing damage?

2) Would I need one or two casts (once for each fist) of GMW?

3) This character will be using Dragonfang Gauntlets (MIC) to "enchant" his fist; since Snap Kick only mentions a generic extra unarmed attack on the rules text, does that means I can make another punch and thus benefit of the enchantments of my Dragonfang gauntlets on that extra attack?

4) Do Spiked gauntlets impose any penalty to spellcasting by RAW? For the record I've always pictured them more like Shredder's (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110425123346/game-pedia/de/images/a/a4/Shredder.jpg) gauntlet's as opposed to the image given on the PHB (http://wizards.com/dnd/images/ph35_gallery/PHB35_PG119_WEB.jpg)


Thanks in advance.

[Yuki Akuma]

1) I... actually don't know whether Versatile Unarmed Strike counts as changing the damage type of your weapon or simply lets you do slashing or piercing damage with a blugeoning weapon. Sorry.

2) Unarmed strike is a single weapon. Your fists aren't separate weapons.

3) An unarmed strike is an unarmed strike. Not a punch or a kick. Snap Kick works fine with Dragonfang Gauntlets.

4) Spiked gauntlets are weapons, not armour. Only armour and shields arcane spell failure. Note that attacking with a spiked gauntlet isn't the same as attacking with an unarmed strike, or even attacking unarmed (but Dragonfang Gauntlets are special).

[Red Fel]

I'd like to point out that a Necklace of Natural Weapons can probably do more for you than the Dragonfang Gauntlets, if your DM allows 3.0 material. Basically, you can enhance the NoNA like a weapon, and the enhancements carry to the natural weapon of your choice - here, unarmed strikes. Yes, you can have +2 Flaming Throwing Returning fists if you want. (See the Natural Weapons and You (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) handbook for more useful tips.)

I think Yuki nailed questions 2-4, but I'll take a shot at #1. Versatile Unarmed Strike says explicitly that it changes the damage of your unarmed strikes to bludgeoning, slashing or piercing. However, I would rule that the base weapon is still a bludgeoning weapon, it's simply temporarily switched its damage type. In much the same way that a Morningstar is Bludgeoning and Piercing, it counts as both. As per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#type):

Some weapons deal damage of multiple types. If a weapon is of two types, the damage it deals is not half one type and half another; all of it is both types. Therefore, a creature would have to be immune to both types of damage to ignore any of the damage from such a weapon.

...

In other cases, a weapon can deal either of two types of damage. In a situation when the damage type is significant, the wielder can choose which type of damage to deal with such a weapon.

In other words, the Morningstar is a Bludgeoning and Piercing weapon, that deals Bludgeoning damage or Piercing damage. In much the same way, I would rule, your unarmed attacks are Bludgeoning weapons that deal another damage type, and thus are still (somewhat paradoxically) subject to GMW.

[HammeredWharf]

1. It ends. VUA lets your unarmed attacks deal "your choice of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage". So, they stop dealing bludgeoning damage, if you choose slashing or piercing. If it's "or", it can't be "and".
2. One.
3. Yes. Despite Snap Kick's name, its description never mentions kicking and by RAW the gauntlets would even augment your kicks.
4. No. They're a weapon and weapons don't give you ASF.

[shylocke]

1) How does Greater Mighty Wallop and Versatile Unarmed Strike interact? Assuming you cast the spell while you are using your fists to deal bludgeoning damage, does the spell ends (or is suppressed) if you change to piercing or slashing damage?
A:only works with bludgeoning dmg

2) Would I need one or two casts (once for each fist) of GMW?
A:the spell enchants your unarmed ark. Fist knee foot headbutt. All work.

3) This character will be using Dragonfang Gauntlets (MIC) to "enchant" his fist; since Snap Kick only mentions a generic extra unarmed attack on the rules text, does that means I can make another punch and thus benefit of the enchantments of my Dragonfang gauntlets on that extra attack?
A:snap kick is up to DM. But technically it is a kick.

4) Do Spiked gauntlets impose any penalty to spellcasting by RAW? For the record I've always pictured them more like Shredder's gauntlet's as opposed to the image given
A:hell yea they do. Shedders weapons are tiger claws not gauntlets. Exotic weapon. Sword and fist I think or song and silence

Thanks in advance.[/QUOTE]

[Khedrac]

There's a problem with the answers to 2), and it goes to the root of some of the problems with unarmed strike - poor definition.

You fists, kicks and headbutt (etc.) are separate weapons for most purposes - such as GMW and (Greater) Magic Fang. (This is why you cannot two-weapon fight with unarmed strike, except you can sort-of.)
What Unarmed Strike does is allow you to use any part of your body that is not otherwise occupied to make the attack.
This means if you cast GMW & GMF on your fist then you won't get their bonuses if you use kicks (no, stunning fist does not require a fist so that's OK).
RAW you can headbutt something below you or kick something above you so which part of your body you enchant should not be a big issue, but there will be circumstances when the GM will say "no - you can't use that part of the body" - the main one being when you want to punch something and are carrying an unconsious ally, your hands are full unless you drop what they are holding.

Generally with a little care you can always use a foot so that would be a good choice to enchant. A spiked gauntlet could be used for an "off-hand" attack but will not get the enchantment bonuses.
What you will need to do though, it to be careful about how you describe your strike to make sure you don't specify the wrong body part.

Edit: most people seem to be saying that you can count "unarmed strike" as a single natural weapon to enchant. Personally I think they are wrong, but there's a good argument that they are correct. However if this interpretation is used, the should you somehow be making an attack with any part of the body that is not part of your unarmed strike routine, then it will not get the enchantment. I am not sure if this is possible without a bite/slam/claw so is unlikely to be an issue.

The real point here is check with your DM - this whole area is a bit murky and he may rule a different way to most posters here.

[Sian]

Edit: most people seem to be saying that you can count "unarmed strike" as a single natural weapon to enchant. Personally I think they are wrong, but there's a good argument that they are correct. However if this interpretation is used, the should you somehow be making an attack with any part of the body that is not part of your unarmed strike routine, then it will not get the enchantment. I am not sure if this is possible without a bite/slam/claw so is unlikely to be an issue.

Given that there are items and such that explicitly call 'unarmed strike' a natural weapon (Fanged Ring comes to mind, which gives Improved Natural Strike (Unarmed Strike) as parts of its bonuses), and the way its explained under Monk, it would lead credence to the belief that Unarmed strike counts for all unarmed attacks that doesn't explicitly count as another natural weapon (bite, slam, claw, gore etc)

[TuggyNE]

There's a problem with the answers to 2), and it goes to the root of some of the problems with unarmed strike - poor definition.

You fists, kicks and headbutt (etc.) are separate weapons for most purposes - such as GMW and (Greater) Magic Fang. (This is why you cannot two-weapon fight with unarmed strike, except you can sort-of.)
What Unarmed Strike does is allow you to use any part of your body that is not otherwise occupied to make the attack.
This means if you cast GMW & GMF on your fist then you won't get their bonuses if you use kicks (no, stunning fist does not require a fist so that's OK).
RAW you can headbutt something below you or kick something above you so which part of your body you enchant should not be a big issue, but there will be circumstances when the GM will say "no - you can't use that part of the body" - the main one being when you want to punch something and are carrying an unconsious ally, your hands are full unless you drop what they are holding.

Generally with a little care you can always use a foot so that would be a good choice to enchant. A spiked gauntlet could be used for an "off-hand" attack but will not get the enchantment bonuses.
What you will need to do though, it to be careful about how you describe your strike to make sure you don't specify the wrong body part.

Edit: most people seem to be saying that you can count "unarmed strike" as a single natural weapon to enchant. Personally I think they are wrong, but there's a good argument that they are correct. However if this interpretation is used, the should you somehow be making an attack with any part of the body that is not part of your unarmed strike routine, then it will not get the enchantment. I am not sure if this is possible without a bite/slam/claw so is unlikely to be an issue.

The real point here is check with your DM - this whole area is a bit murky and he may rule a different way to most posters here.

Monk unarmed strikes are not like most natural weapons, in that they are not tied to any part of the body at all, and use iteratives instead of multiple natural attacks. Other natural weapons, of course, are limited in that respect, so putting +5 on your claws with GMF means you can't use the same spell instance for +5 on your bite; however, +5 on unarmed strike works for all unarmed strikes and only unarmed strikes.

Presumably this also extends to non-Monk unarmed strikes, although the rules are a bit murkier there.