[E6] Is there anything more powerful than an optimized Ranger?

[Seerow]

Seriously, an optimized ranger is pretty awesome even in a normal game. But the best Ranger options tend to get hamstrung by restricting high level access. Consider a Ranger with the following:

-Mystic Ranger ACF
-Wildshape Ranger ACF
-Sword of the Arcane Order Feat


You give up your Animal Companion and delay your access to Combat Styles and Favored Enemy with Mystic Ranger. You give up the Combat Styles (which are still available to give up, they just got delayed) for the Wildshape Ranger.

In exchange, at level 6 you are now a full BAB class with light armor, 6 skill points per level, a d8hd, fast movement, and wildshaping as a druid of your level and casting spells as a Wizard of your level. Once you're actually level 6 you can start spending feats on extra spells per day so having a few less base spells per day makes almost no difference to you. You also have a few extra feats and minor class features that you generally don't care about, but aren't bad to have (Endurance, Track, Wild Empathy, Endurance).

I mean, that's a lot of stuff on one class. The drawback for Mystic Ranger is typically that your spells cap out at 5th level, but in E6 that never matters anyway. The drawback for Wildshape Ranger is unless you prestige out you never get beyond medium animals. But in E6, the Druid never gets those either.

Is there anything that tops a Ranger in a low level game? It doesn't seem like it.

[Seerow]

So I guess that resounding silence is a "no"?

[Spore]

I think the resounding silence is meant to be a:

"I don't play e6 so I do not have any opinion on it."

[Seerow]

I think the resounding silence is meant to be a:

"I don't play e6 so I do not have any opinion on it."

But that's the boring answer. And it's not like you have to play E6 to know what's good at level 6.

[Irk]

Not everyone thinks that you can stack wildshape ranger and mystic ranger. If you could, The ramifications of that would bring Ranger up to T2 or even T1 if done correctly. (Not in E6, but in normal 3.5.)

Also, wildshape ranger only allows you to wildshape into animals, so you have to take the wildshape feats to get access to other forms.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Less than three hours is not a resounding silence. A SotAO Wildshape Mystic Ranger 6 only gets 3/3/2/1 spells/day.

A Kobold can get Wizard 9 spellcasting in E6, with no spellbook, and automatically know four 5th, eight 4th, eight 3rd, eight 2nd, and however many 1st level spells. Along with Abrupt Jaunt, Mindbender 1 and Mindsight despite banning Enchantment, and above average HP. He can know Cloudkill, Teleport, Transmute Rock to Mud, Wall of Stone, Enervation, Globe of Invulnerability, Heart of Earth, Polymorph, Black Tentacles, etc. Plus he can learn non-Wizard spells just by counterspelling them and sacrificing a gem. He can write multiple copies of the same spell on his body as though in a spellbook and then spend those copies instead of material and xp components of spells. He can even sacrifice a copy of a spell to cast it as though from a scroll.

[Kaje]

Also give up Track for Trapfinding.

[Twilightwyrm]

Less than three hours is not a resounding silence. A SotAO Wildshape Mystic Ranger 6 only gets 3/3/2/1 spells/day.

A Kobold can get Wizard 9 spellcasting in E6, with no spellbook, and automatically know four 5th, eight 4th, eight 3rd, eight 2nd, and however many 1st level spells. Along with Abrupt Jaunt, Mindbender 1 and Mindsight despite banning Enchantment, and above average HP. He can know Cloudkill, Teleport, Transmute Rock to Mud, Wall of Stone, Enervation, Globe of Invulnerability, Heart of Earth, Polymorph, Black Tentacles, etc. Plus he can learn non-Wizard spells just by counterspelling them and sacrificing a gem. He can write multiple copies of the same spell on his body as though in a spellbook and then spend those copies instead of material and xp components of spells. He can even sacrifice a copy of a spell to cast it as though from a scroll.

Disregarding for a moment that the OP just mentioned class, not race, I still sense shenanigans. How exactly have you worked this increased wizard class level past what E6 is normally capable of, not to mention the other stuff?

[Seerow]

Not everyone thinks that you can stack wildshape ranger and mystic ranger. If you could, The ramifications of that would bring Ranger up to T2 or even T1 if done correctly. (Not in E6, but in normal 3.5.)


Doubtful. It's strongest in E6 because you're getting the same level spells and wildshapes as the full casters. In a 20 level game, you've got a gimped wildshape and a gimped spellcasting. Either can be expanded upon through prestige classes, but by themselves it doesn't get you a tier 2 class. On the other hand I can't think of anything strictly better at level 6.

As for whether or not they stack, I see nothing to indicate they wouldn't. Wild Shape ranger requires giving up combat styles, and Mystic Ranger still has combat styles to trade out. Follow the same rules as combining multiple ACFs for any other class.


Also, wildshape ranger only allows you to wildshape into animals, so you have to take the wildshape feats to get access to other forms.


True, but the Druid has the same restriction when stuck at level 6, which makes it seem much better than normal.



Less than three hours is not a resounding silence.


My experience is a thread that falls off the first page without a single reply never gets seen again. Whether that takes 3 hours or 3 weeks. On the other hand, one reply and suddenly people are talking. Strange.


A SotAO Wildshape Mystic Ranger 6 only gets 3/3/2/1 spells/day.

And a Wizard only gets 4/3/3/2 spells per day. And if you need more spells per day, at level 6 you can spend 1 feat to gain 3 extra spell levels worth of spell slots. The Wizard will always be ahead, but not by a huge amount.


A Kobold can get Wizard 9 spellcasting in E6, with no spellbook, and automatically know four 5th, eight 4th, eight 3rd, eight 2nd, and however many 1st level spells. Along with Abrupt Jaunt, Mindbender 1 and Mindsight despite banning Enchantment, and above average HP. He can know Cloudkill, Teleport, Transmute Rock to Mud, Wall of Stone, Enervation, Globe of Invulnerability, Heart of Earth, Polymorph, Black Tentacles, etc. Plus he can learn non-Wizard spells just by counterspelling them and sacrificing a gem. He can write multiple copies of the same spell on his body as though in a spellbook and then spend those copies instead of material and xp components of spells. He can even sacrifice a copy of a spell to cast it as though from a scroll.


This on the other hand is a great competitor. What shenanigans are being pulled to get the Wizard 9 casting? I'm guessing stuff out of Dragon Magic/Races of the Dragon? (Not even calling foul on this, genuinely curious)

[Irk]

Doubtful. It's strongest in E6 because you're getting the same level spells and wildshapes as the full casters. In a 20 level game, you've got a gimped wildshape and a gimped spellcasting. Either can be expanded upon through prestige classes, but by themselves it doesn't get you a tier 2 class. On the other hand I can't think of anything strictly better at level 6.
It mainly has to do with the fact that they can get a magical beast animal companion, even after they swap it out for something else.

As for whether or not they stack, I see nothing to indicate they wouldn't. Wild Shape ranger requires giving up combat styles, and Mystic Ranger still has combat styles to trade out. Follow the same rules as combining multiple ACFs for any other class.
Personally, I agree with you. The argument against that is that the wildshape ranger is a modification to the BASE ranger class, rather than modified version that mystic ranger creates. Again, I am in agreement with you, so lets not turn this into an argument.

[nedz]

It's an excellent Gish, but your spells are spread quite thinly.
A Wizard 6 gets [4,3,3,2] base before specialisms/generalisms/etc.
Your also quite MAD — at least if you want combat and spells.

[Glimbur]

This on the other hand is a great competitor. What shenanigans are being pulled to get the Wizard 9 casting? I'm guessing stuff out of Dragon Magic/Races of the Dragon? (Not even calling foul on this, genuinely curious)

I'd guess the kobold with extra spellcasting is using Loredrake. Sovereign dragon archetype from some Eberron book.

Could also be using Epic hax (dragonwrought + epic feat qualification through dragon age) and various ways to get spell slots higher level than you should.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds), Draconic Rite of Passage: Charm Person, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), Loredrake archetype, and the Spellhoarding template from Dragon 313's article Psychoses: Dragon Delusions and Dementia. The class build is Martial Wizard (Conjurer) 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1, with at least one flaw for Collegiate Wizard, Dragonwrought, Draconic Reserve, and Mindsight. Preferably you trade your Wizard familiar for Abrupt Jaunt, and your Sorcerer familiar for Rapid Summoning, otherwise get a Hummingbird familiar for +4 initiative. Get Improved Initiative or Combat Reflexes via Martial Wizard, and proficiencies and weapon focus via Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, either armor spikes and a glaive or some light or one-handed martial weapon and a longbow.

Everyone should know what a Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold gets, and everything else is easy enough to research until you get to Spellhoarding. Note the Draconic Rite of Passage gives him Charm Person as a spell-like ability to qualify for Mindbender.

Spellhoarding is a +0 LA dragon template that gives Int +2, Wis -4, +5 Spellcraft, Scribe Scroll and Eschew Materials for free, and some very unique special attacks/qualities. All of your Sorcerer spellcasting is converted to as many levels of Wizard spellcasting, and levels gained later are retroactively converted. That means the drawbacks of Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer get removed with the Sorcerer spellcasting, and since you're already a Conjurer your converted Sorcerer levels will increase that. Without Spellhoarding the build gets Wizard 1, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 7 (4 levels, 2 loredrake, 1 rite of passage), and +1 to either via Mindbender. That gets switched to Wizard 9 casting, and with Collegiate Wizard you get four new spells per level of Wizard casting gained.

A Spellhoarding dragon doesn't keep a spellbook, his spells are instead written on his scales, referred to as a spellhoard. The cost of scribing a spell into his spellhoard is the same as scribing one into a spellbook (100 gp per spell level), but there's no risk of losing it. Like a spellbook he can scribe the same spell multiple times. He can 'burn' a certain number of spell levels from his spellhoard to pay xp and/or material costs of spells. He can 'spellcatch' any spell he counterspells and automatically add it to his spellhoard, available as a Wizard spell, though it costs a gem worth 100 gp per level of the spell (the same cost as scribing it), and he can use this to learn non-Wizard spells and even spells from prohibited schools. He can even cast a spell directly from his spellhoard as though from a spell, using up that copy of that spell, though there is a daily limit (caster level + Int bonus) to the number of spell levels he can cast in this manner.

So he gets four levels of the Stalwart Battle Sorcerer BAB (3/4) and HP (1d8+2+Con), base saves of Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +8, standard skill points for a Wizard 6, a few more proficiencies, and Wizard 9 (Conjurer, Focused Specialist optional) spellcasting. Yes, it does rely on him being considered a true dragon per the most recent and most definitive source on the matter, Dragon Magic.

Edit: Epic feats are not even needed, but they'll definitely help (Epic Toughness +30 HP).

[Fouredged Sword]

The Kobold is a Kobold wizard 5 / mindbender 1 with the White Dragonspawn template and the Spellhording draconic insanity.

White dragonspawn makes you a dragon, so you don't need to even burn a feat on dragonraught. You can then preform the greater draconic right of passage.

All in all, you end up with Wizard 10 casting (6 normal, 1 rite of passage, 2 spellhordeing, and 1 white dragonspawn) and nothing stopping you from researching the wish spell through the standard rules for researching spells. Once you do so (and you can write a spell into your spellbook even if you can't cast it) you can copy it 29 times (for 900gp each time) and use those as scrolls of WISH to give yourself +5 to all stats.

[Callin]

It would be my go to class minus the Wildshape in an E6 game. I just dont care for Wildshape all that much.

Now if I wanted huge damage numbers i like Whirling Frenzy Lion/Wolf totem Barb 2/ Savage Progression Savage Vampire 1/ Fighter 2/X 1. On a Half Minotaur/Half Ogre/Half Orc. Nothing says I love you like a +30 to strength while level draining with each claw attack.

For funsies i made up a Generic Warrior/Expert/Spellcaster/Rogue/Sneak attack fighter 2 that gets 8d6 sneak attack


Early entry into thief of life using the same Generic Warrior 1/ Expert 1/ Thief of Life 4 can be fun. And gets 5d6 sneak attack i think... And I gave him an Animal Cohort. Fun times.

Lots can be built for tons of things but the ranger can do alot and is powerful in E6 with the right ACFs.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Kobold is a Kobold wizard 5 / mindbender 1 with the White Dragonspawn template and the Spellhording draconic insanity.

White dragonspawn makes you a dragon, so you don't need to even burn a feat on dragonraught. You can then preform the greater draconic right of passage.

All in all, you end up with Wizard 10 casting (6 normal, 1 rite of passage, 2 spellhordeing, and 1 white dragonspawn) and nothing stopping you from researching the wish spell through the standard rules for researching spells. Once you do so (and you can write a spell into your spellbook even if you can't cast it) you can copy it 29 times (for 900gp each time) and use those as scrolls of WISH to give yourself +5 to all stats.

White Dragonspawn makes you a Monstrous Humanoid, and it cannot be applied to creature type: Dragons. Since you have to be 1 HD to be living, and you must take Dragonwrought at 1st level, and White Dragonspawn is an acquired template that you don't get to be born with, the two are completely incompatible.

[Lanaya]

Well the simple and useless answer, as is always the answer to "is there anything more powerful than X" in 3.5, is that yes there is, and that is Pun-Pun. Unless you were asking whether anything is more powerful than Pun-Pun, I suppose. As far as more useful answers go, we'd have to see a proper build to tell, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if an optimised wizard or druid had the upper hand.

[Lonely Tylenol]

As far as general, can-do-everything-pretty-damned-well effectiveness, SotAO Wildshape Mystic Ranger is just a generally strong contender, because, as described, it has the best chassis with third-level spell casting, and access to both the Wizard list and the Ranger list (up to what a Ranger normally gets at 12th level) is quite nice. That said, there are hedge cases that can flat-out outrank such a ranger in overall effectiveness: for example, a Mulhorandi Divine Minion Master of Many Forms 6 has at-will free action wild shape without duration or equipment restrictions, at a caster level of 17, for six different types of creatures (but, hilariously, not animals). The sheer number of creatures of the supported types (Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Giant, Fey, Aberration, and Vermin), between Tiny and Huge, at up to 17 Hit Dice, is staggering. You have hundreds of options at your fingertips at all times. Add onto this a few iterations of the feat Assume Supernatural Ability (pick your poison; there are many options available to you), and you can basically bend most encounters combat and logistical alike over your knee and spank them.

There are other examples, too... But basically, what I'm getting at is that SotAO Mystic Ranger isn't the single most optimized thing you can have, but it is probably the safest optimization ceiling without breaking the world a bit.

[nedz]

Well the simple and useless answer, as is always the answer to "is there anything more powerful than X" in 3.5, is that yes there is, and that is Pun-Pun. Unless you were asking whether anything is more powerful than Pun-Pun, I suppose. As far as more useful answers go, we'd have to see a proper build to tell, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if an optimised wizard or druid had the upper hand.

Has anyone done Pun Pun in E6 ?
I know it can be done at level 1, but it normally involves spells which aren't available in an E6 setting.
The quoted caster level for making a Candle of Invocation is 17 with the spell Gate. Obviously you need to be able to access Wish too.
Is this just hand waved as Greater Powers did it.

[SiuiS]

The dwarven Soulforger. They get all that, and more, from their ability to craft magic items as if they were CL 15 and had access to any spells available to a 15th level caster – which is what, 8th level spells?

Sure it's just supposed to be arms and armor, but you can do an amazing amount of twinkery with that.

[Ziegander]

The dwarven Soulforger. They get all that, and more, from their ability to craft magic items as if they were CL 15 and had access to any spells available to a 15th level caster – which is what, 8th level spells?

Sure it's just supposed to be arms and armor, but you can do an amazing amount of twinkery with that.

What is this sorcery you speak of?

[SiuiS]

Dwarf incarnate 5/soul forger 1
Retraining shenanigans
Dwarf incarnate 1/Soulforger 5 (or possibly soul forger 6; I believe that once you hit retraining, training incarnate levels into soul forger levels meets it's own prerequisites). Soul forger can make magic items as if it had the right feats and spells, and it's caster level is triple it's class level.

The price is "only" going on a solo quest to handle encounters of CR 10 in quick succession a few times to get the retraining done.

E: Nope!

The class is iron soul forge master (quite a mouthful) and there are two important points.
The first is that you must retrain to get crafting; the class gets arms and armor at second level.
The second is that the class does not bypass means of getting actual spells; it's only value in e6 s the CL15 gets you up to, I think +5 weapons and armor versus the +2 max otherwise. The methods I have on record for getting spells aren't RAW legal because they draw from inference, houserules and outside sources. I crossed my memories of higher potency basic gear with my memories of cheating the system :smallredface:

Good thing I actually had a book available to check, I suppose.

[Ziegander]

E: Nope!

The class is iron soul forge master (quite a mouthful) and there are two important points.
The first is that you must retrain to get crafting; the class gets arms and armor at second level.
The second is that the class does not bypass means of getting actual spells; it's only value in e6 s the CL15 gets you up to, I think +5 weapons and armor versus the +2 max otherwise. The methods I have on record for getting spells aren't RAW legal because they draw from inference, houserules and outside sources. I crossed my memories of higher potency basic gear with my memories of cheating the system :smallredface:

Aww, this is too bad. I was so intrigued, too. :smalltongue:

[Kaje]

It's an excellent Gish, but your spells are spread quite thinly.
A Wizard 6 gets [4,3,3,2] base before specialisms/generalisms/etc.
Your also quite MAD — at least if you want combat and spells.

It needs 13 Int, 13 Wis, and then put the rest in Con. Your Wildshape can do the rest.

[Petrocorus]

If Favoured Enemy is only delayed (don't remember) you can take Arcane Hunter instead, which is a huge improvement i believe.

[Ruethgar]

I might point out that Spellhoarding is for true dragons only so it is questionably applicable to a kobold. However, White Dragonspawn Abomination Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Lore Drake(strongly implied to be true only but not outright stated as such) can still get the casting of a 10th to 16th level sorcerer. You of course also want a major draconic bloodline for more caster level and so you can buy off the LA before your are character level 2.

With 3rd party, take Stalwart Battle Dragon Sorcerer and one level of DFA to get up to 3rd level spell slots at will, still none new learned, but come on, at will!

Also dragonspawn breed true and race is applied before feats so you are born a White Dragonspawn Abomination and then take the Dragonwrought feat, no conflict of type. If you insist that it must be acquired, convert the mother while the child is still not a separate being.

[Fouredged Sword]

Or acquire the template and get a casting of psychic reformation to reset your first level feat. That is a 4th level power, so hard to get your hands on as a E6 character.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Also dragonspawn breed true and race is applied before feats so you are born a White Dragonspawn Abomination and then take the Dragonwrought feat, no conflict of type. If you insist that it must be acquired, convert the mother while the child is still not a separate being.

Dragonspawn is an acquired template, you cannot be born with it. You're only ever born with inherited templates. Dragonwrought must be taken at your 1st HD, before you have the chance to gain any acquired templates, and it's described as being obvious even from the egg the kobold hatches from. They are incompatible.

[123456789blaaa]

Given the E6 LA rules, there are almost certainly some monsters that could compete or exceed a really optimized ranger. Off the top of my head, a drider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/drider.htm) seems like it could at least keep up. The LA of the Grell were changed in Lords of Madness (so the original in the MMII 3.5 update manual isn't RAW-legal anymore) but with their original LA of +4, they were insane in E6.


Dwarf incarnate 5/soul forger 1
Retraining shenanigans
Dwarf incarnate 1/Soulforger 5 (or possibly soul forger 6; I believe that once you hit retraining, training incarnate levels into soul forger levels meets it's own prerequisites). Soul forger can make magic items as if it had the right feats and spells, and it's caster level is triple it's class level.

The price is "only" going on a solo quest to handle encounters of CR 10 in quick succession a few times to get the retraining done.

E: Nope!

The class is iron soul forge master (quite a mouthful) and there are two important points.
The first is that you must retrain to get crafting; the class gets arms and armor at second level.
The second is that the class does not bypass means of getting actual spells; it's only value in e6 s the CL15 gets you up to, I think +5 weapons and armor versus the +2 max otherwise. The methods I have on record for getting spells aren't RAW legal because they draw from inference, houserules and outside sources. I crossed my memories of higher potency basic gear with my memories of cheating the system :smallredface:

Good thing I actually had a book available to check, I suppose.

There is another way actually. The Primary Contact feat from Cityscape allows you to gain 1 bonus rank in a skill (dpending on which organization your contact belongs to) even if doing so would put you above your normal maximum ranks for that skill. Thus you can enter one level early and nab the second level ability. No retraining necessary :smallcool:.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Bloodline levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) increase your max skill ranks without increasing your character level. There's no limit to how many bloodlines you can have, and bloodline levels taken before your 2nd character level only cost 1,000 xp each. You can get three major bloodlines and go [class] 1/ Bloodline 9/ [class] 1/ [PrC with 14 skill ranks prerequisite] 3.

I'm not sure how useful that would be, considering most prestige classes have limiting prerequisites besides skill ranks, such as BAB and spellcasting, but I'm sure there are plenty that this will work with. Just off the top of my head:
Assassin (Bloodline 3)
Psychic Assassin (Bloodline 3, or 4 for ML)
Shadowdancer (Bloodline 5)
Master of Masks (Bloodline 3)
Chameleon (Bloodline 3)
Runesmith (Bloodline 3)
Ruathar (Bloodline 4)
Mindbender (Bloodline 3, or 4 for CL)
Divine Oracle (Bloodline 3)
Ordained Champion (Bloodline 2)

Bloodline levels are also amazing for spellcasters and psionic manifesters. They were good for an Animal Companion build (effective Druid level 23 with Bloodline 3, +5 per additional Bloodline level), but WotC made an official ruling that Animal Companion is a level threshold progression rather than a per-level progression, so Bloodline levels wouldn't apply. For a Psionic manifester it increases your manifester level, so it affects range, duration, how many powerpoints you can spend on a power, and also bonus powerpoints for a high ability score. You can actually get 9th level powers on an Ardent with enough Bloodline levels.....


Any race, Ardent 1/ Bloodline 18/ Ardent 5, manifester level 24, six major bloodlines, knows two 1st level powers and five of any level including 9th, not counting Expanded Knowledge. Be sure to use Substitute Powers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a). He has a sufficient manifester level to use Persistent Power (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf): Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm), becoming invulnerable to everything including abilities used by deities for 24 hours at a time. I think there's a psionic artifact somewhere that's specifically able to bypass this, but that's the only thing that would ever pose a threat to him.

[Seerow]

That's a pretty sketchy interpretation of Bloodline Levels. If they actually worked that way, everyone would take as many bloodlines as possible right after level 1 to get tons of effectively free benefits.

The way it actually works is you take a bloodline level, and you now count as a level higher, you just got none of the stuff you should have gotten from leveling up. It's similar to LA, it's a weird sort of LA where the LA gets higher the higher level you are. So you take a Major Bloodline, you give up 3 levels to get all of the benefits of a major bloodline for a character of your ECL.

So in E6, you're capped at 6 levels. You could be say, Wizard3/Bloodline3. You're only going to have 2nd level spells, but will have CL6. You get no hit dice or skill points, but you do have max skill ranks of a 6th level character. Trying to take Wizard3/Bloodline3/Wizard3 as an ECL6 character is stretching the RAW to the point of absurdity.

[Novawurmson]

Nobody brought up the Pixie Warlock? I thought that was supposed to be the "Oh, screw you" of E6.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's a pretty sketchy interpretation of Bloodline Levels. If they actually worked that way, everyone would take as many bloodlines as possible right after level 1 to get tons of effectively free benefits.

The way it actually works is you take a bloodline level, and you now count as a level higher, you just got none of the stuff you should have gotten from leveling up. It's similar to LA, it's a weird sort of LA where the LA gets higher the higher level you are. So you take a Major Bloodline, you give up 3 levels to get all of the benefits of a major bloodline for a character of your ECL.

So in E6, you're capped at 6 levels. You could be say, Wizard3/Bloodline3. You're only going to have 2nd level spells, but will have CL6. You get no hit dice or skill points, but you do have max skill ranks of a 6th level character. Trying to take Wizard3/Bloodline3/Wizard3 as an ECL6 character is stretching the RAW to the point of absurdity.

Bloodline levels specifically do not increase your character level. They aren't counted when determining how often you get feats or ability score increases, and they aren't counted when determining how much xp you get per encounter or how much xp you need to gain your next level. At 1st level once you gain 1,000 xp you gain a level. If you gain a bloodline level, you're still 1st level and still need only another 1,000 xp to gain another level. That's why bloodline levels only cost 1,000 xp each.

Bloodline levels do give you specific benefits that are similar to character levels, but still don't increase your character level. They're counted when determining max skill ranks, and they're added to each of your classes when determining class features based on class level, such as caster level. They do not progress any class features, so they wouldn't give you additional spells/day or higher level spells available or more spells known. The Ardent is a special case though, because the only limiting factor in what level of powers and ardent can learn is his manifester level, rather than his class level.

[Seerow]

Bloodline levels specifically do not increase your character level. They aren't counted when determining how often you get feats or ability score increases, and they aren't counted when determining how much xp you get per encounter or how much xp you need to gain your next level. At 1st level once you gain 1,000 xp you gain a level. If you gain a bloodline level, you're still 1st level and still need only another 1,000 xp to gain another level. That's why bloodline levels only cost 1,000 xp each.


This is the part you need to prove. It specifies it doesn't increase character level the way a class level does, but then goes on to elaborate what you do and don't gain.

I see nothing in here saying you spend the experience (so you go from 0 to 1000, gain a bloodline level and go back to 0 so you can gain level 2 at 1000). I also see nothing saying the experience level table is modified at all (so you go from 0 to 1000, gain a bloodline level, and go 1000 to 2000 to level 1).

So what happens as far as anything I can see is you hit 1000exp. You gain a bloodline level. You gain exactly the benefits described by the bloodline levels section. Your next character level comes at 3000exp, and is your 3rd level as per the normal experience charts.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This is the part you need to prove. It specifies it doesn't increase character level the way a class level does, but then goes on to elaborate what you do and don't gain.

I see nothing in here saying you spend the experience (so you go from 0 to 1000, gain a bloodline level and go back to 0 so you can gain level 2 at 1000). I also see nothing saying the experience level table is modified at all (so you go from 0 to 1000, gain a bloodline level, and go 1000 to 2000 to level 1).

So what happens as far as anything I can see is you hit 1000exp. You gain a bloodline level. You gain exactly the benefits described by the bloodline levels section. Your next character level comes at 3000exp, and is your 3rd level as per the normal experience charts.

"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

It specifically doesn't do anything that a normal character level would do, with detailed exceptions to that. XP per level is not one of those exceptions. In the PHB you have Table 3-2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits, the first column of which is labeled Character Level. Bloodline levels do not move you down this chart, because that's not one of the listed exceptions to not increasing your character level. Technically a 1st level character who reaches 1,000 xp and takes a Bloodline level is still eligible to gain an additional level immediately, because he has not increased his character level. But he did spend that level-up on something, so he should have to gain that much XP over again.

[bekeleven]

I have a question. How are you getting the 2nd and 3rd level of the bloodline in e6? I Was under the impression you had to be be 6th level to gain the 2nd bloodline level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I have a question. How are you getting the 2nd and 3rd level of the bloodline in e6? I Was under the impression you had to be be 6th level to gain the 2nd bloodline level.

It says you have to take each bloodline level before the indicated character level. You can take them as early as you want, though not at 1st level since it doesn't give you a HD.

[bekeleven]

It says you have to take each bloodline level before the indicated character level. You can take them as early as you want, though not at 1st level since it doesn't give you a HD.

Fair enough, I'd never really looked into them.

How are you trading away a sorc's familiar for rapid summoning?

[deuxhero]

Mystic Ranger is dragon content (unless it was in Dragon Compendium...). Most classes get really crazy with that allowed.