Looking for a streamlined magic system!

[wesisthearcher]

I've recently been laying some groundwork on a homebrew setting I've been dreaming up. My past experiences with RPG's are limited to just D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder, and even in those two aren't terribly extensive. For whatever reason, I've always had some trouble completely grasping the ruleset for their magic system, and I suppose just for that reason I haven't been terribly fond of it.

I want to stick with a D20 system, I'm fairly certain of that, and of these two Pathfinder has been my favorite. But what I'm looking for from magic in my setting is something a bit more free-form - preferably without individual spells at all. I've never been crazy about how limiting that is, as well as the idea of having to daily prepare these spells, for that matter. I've started doing a bit of research looking for some sort of game with a system I could scavenge a bit for ideas, but I thought I might go directly to the experts, and perhaps save myself some time (and money) avoiding the process.

Thanks all!

[Rubik]

Try 3.5 psionics (and avoid 3.0 psionics completely). It uses the bare-bones basics of the 3.5 magic system (targeting and so on), but it completely forgoes the clunky, chunky, and nasty and funky spell slots system and uses a points system (similar to FFVI's magic point system). You know a certain number of psionic powers based on your levels in psionic classes and have a pool of power points to spend on them, and you can spend a number of power points per manifestation equal to your manifester (ie, caster) level. Most powers allow you to "augment" them (spend more power points to boost the effect, such as "spend +1 power point to deal +1d6 damage; for every 2 pp you spend, add +1 to the DC").

The system is considerably more streamlined and easier to play. There are a few loopholes in the system, but they're far fewer than core casting, and power points are far more easily kept track of than those stupid spell slots.

And it's even in the SRD, so you can refer to that when you need to.

[wesisthearcher]

Try 3.5 psionics (and avoid 3.0 psionics completely). It uses the bare-bones basics of the 3.5 magic system (targeting and so on), but it completely forgoes the clunky, chunky, and nasty and funky spell slots system and uses a points system (similar to FFVI's magic point system). You know a certain number of psionic powers based on your levels in psionic classes and have a pool of power points to spend on them, and you can spend a number of power points per manifestation equal to your manifester (ie, caster) level. Most powers allow you to "augment" them (spend more power points to boost the effect, such as "spend +1 power point to deal +1d6 damage; for every 2 pp you spend, add +1 to the DC").

The system is considerably more streamlined and easier to play. There are a few loopholes in the system, but they're far fewer than core casting, and power points are far more easily kept track of than those stupid spell slots.

And it's even in the SRD, so you can refer to that when you need to.

This would be the Expanded Psionics book, yes? I've thumbed through that one a bit and liked it. The problem is, I also planned on using psionics in this setting, so if I adopted the psionic ruleset for my magic system, I then have to look for something new to use for psionics. :smalltongue:

Am I correct in this, or do I misunderstand your suggestion?

[Rubik]

This would be the Expanded Psionics book, yes? I've thumbed through that one a bit and liked it. The problem is, I also planned on using psionics in this setting, so if I adopted the psionic ruleset for my magic system, I then have to look for something new to use for psionics. :smalltongue:

Am I correct in this, or do I misunderstand your suggestion?Definitely the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Most of the "magic systems" in D&D aren't really particularly magical. Incarnum, for instance, basically creates personal-only magic items out of soulstuff, which doesn't really feel magical at all. Truenaming, while cool in theory, is horribad on so many levels. Warlocks are basically just artillery pieces with a few effects tacked on. Binding forces a non-entity thing to inhabit the binder's body, granting benefits and penalties according to the non-entity in question. Pretty much the rest uses Vancian spell slots, so you're pretty well stuck.

I'd suggest focusing on psionics, Tome of Battle, incarnum, binding, and maybe a few dips in lower-tiered classes. Just lower the level of the Body Adjustment (psionic healing) power to 1, and change it to a Touch power. That, or make other forms of healing easily available. Beyond that, you should be set to go.

You could also check out Lycanthromancer's Psionic Powers Revision (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7XkmnK-DY9YNGFFaGd1MEFRWkk/edit?usp=sharing). It's designed to be a full magic system, rather than an adjunct to the regular system. It's not entirely finished (basically, it's missing a few higher level powers), so it's basically still a beta version, but a lot of people seem to like it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think you're going to find anything better than psionics that's already finished except maybe in the hombrew section of this and other forums.

You don't -have- to have two systems, you know. Replace magic with psionics and just go with it.

[rmnimoc]

In addition to everything mentioned above, I believe Unearthed Arcana has variant rules for spellcasters using a magic version of power points.

[Rubik]

In addition to everything mentioned above, I believe Unearthed Arcana has variant rules for spellcasters using a magic version of power points.Not a good idea in the vast majority of cases. It makes wizards MUCH better, makes sorcerers relatively worse, and punishes blasting, which is already one of the worst things to do as a caster.

Basically, it exacerbates the system's problems most of the time (with corner cases being the only real exceptions).

[Xerlith]

My personal favourite is the Spellshaping system by DonQuixote. It's basically a natural derivative of the ToB mechanic

[Petrocorus]

I totally second (or third, uhh...fifth?) the psionic system.
And ToB.

You could make a pretty balanced D&D if you ban all magic and use psionic (*) (refluffed as the new magic) and ToB instead.
All base class can be replaced easily by psionic or ToB version of them, except for the Bard, the Ranger and maybe the Druid.
I actually am working on such a thing.
Adapting the bard into psionic bard by using the Psychic Warrior power progression (basically the equivalent of the Bard spell progression already) and create a power list.

The ranger can be adapted using Champion of the Wild (non-casting) Wildshape Ranger. Or by homebrewing a ToB version.

(*) Okay, you'll need to ban a handful of dirty tricks, notably those who can break the power point limit.

[Snowbluff]

Psionics is not what you want. It's copy pasta magic. I heard World of Darkness has a more "free form" magic system. I'd suggest the GURPS one, but it's a little more on the rigid side.

[BWR]

Finding 'streamlined' magic systems for d20 can be a bit of a pain.
What you want sounds suspiciously like either WW's Mage system or, more likely, Ars Magica.
While AM is not exactly streamlined, it does have a well-tuned system for creating many many effects from a base set. Once you get into it it's quite nice. The biggest problem is using it to create effects on the fly rather than formulaic magic (traditional spells) really slows down game play as you leaf through the book trying to find out what you can do and your chances of making the Difficulty roll. 4th edition AM is available for free online and well worth a look no matter what you want. It even has an attempt at a d20 conversion (http://wiki.erik.jordan.name/index.php?title=Magic_Mechanics).

[wesisthearcher]

So unless I misunderstand, a popular opinion seems to be to retool the psionics rules to include magic as well as psionic powers? That sounds like a great option, but I'm not entirely sure how to proceed with such a thing.

I looked up the spellshaping codex by Don Quixote, and ironically enough, not only does it seem a viable option but exactly as it's fluffed I think it should fit my setting quite well. My question on that front is, if I went with that option and just replaced all arcane casters with these spellshaping classes, would that irreparably damage game balance? That would leave divine casters exactly as they are, but I have a much easier time accepting that a cleric has to pray daily to request his spells from his deity, and prepare them for use. This is probably the simplest, and currently most appealing option to me at the moment.

In a previous campaign I actually tried Unearthed Arcana's spell point system once, but I wasn't terribly impressed. That campaign was bogged down with too many house rules as it was, but the spell point system seemed to just make D&D's already muddy magic system that much muddier.

Next I plan on reading through the Ars Magica 4th edition book to get a feel for what that's all about. I'm still sort of feeling out some options, but I really appreciate everyone's input!

[Gemini476]

My question on that front is, if I went with that option and just replaced all arcane casters with these spellshaping classes, would that irreparably damage game balance?

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...phew, alright, I made it. Thank God.
No, replacing core arcane casting will not hurt game balance. Mostly because core arcane casting is broken to hell and back.

You might want to replace the divine casters with something else, however - the Cleric and Druid in particular are extremely broken (although more so the second). For a quick fix to the Druid, giving it the Bard's spell slots makes it merely a very good class. I'm sure that others can give good suggestions for changing both of them to be less broken.

I mean, really. The Druid's Riding Dog is basically a Fighter as a class feature, and the Cleric is a Fighter who is worse at fighting but has spells (that can give him full BAB and extra HP, so he's actually just better at fighting).
I guess the Shugenja is decent as a healer if you absolutely need one, although I would probably just consider gestalting the actual Healer class with something better to create a new "cleric". Would Healer//Fighter work, perhaps? Or maybe just tack the Adept's spell list onto the Healer and call it a day. I dunno.
I really don't know any quick-fixes to the Cleric, so sorry for that.

[TuggyNE]

I don't think you're going to find anything better than psionics that's already finished except maybe in the hombrew section of this and other forums.

You don't -have- to have two systems, you know. Replace magic with psionics and just go with it.

This.


So unless I misunderstand, a popular opinion seems to be to retool the psionics rules to include magic as well as psionic powers? That sounds like a great option, but I'm not entirely sure how to proceed with such a thing.

As I so often do in this sort of situation, I'd like to recommend Ernir's system that does just that. All Core spells were rewritten to use psionic mechanics, down to augmentation and focusing, and pretty much all the refluffing has been done.


I looked up the spellshaping codex by Don Quixote, and ironically enough, not only does it seem a viable option but exactly as it's fluffed I think it should fit my setting quite well. My question on that front is, if I went with that option and just replaced all arcane casters with these spellshaping classes, would that irreparably damage game balance?

Probably not, given that the game has somehow survived having arcane casters in it. Removing them may well improve matters.

[Maginomicon]

I rewrote/fixed the Unearthed Arcana "Spell Points" system that was mentioned earlier in an easily-extensible way (Ernir's system is not easily extensible, as in his system you have to homebrew every single spell in existence from the ground up, increasing your workload as GM by ten-fold).

While my fix has many balancing tweaks, the most difficult component in my fix is that the GM must actively fight against the "15 minute work day". It is critical that the GM not run the party on the "batteries" of the caster-archetype PCs. If you let the caster PC's batteries dictate when the party rests, there is no easily-extensible system that will make prepared-type spellcasters balanced compared to the spontaneous-type casters. The party must feel a sense of urgency in their task, and not stop for the night because the caster-archetypes in the group blew their points or because the caster-archetypes didn't prepare what the party needed.

You must through quest design force the prepared-type casters to feel like they have to leave spell slots open (decreasing how many spells are at their immediate disposal, which is key to balancing the system) or otherwise potentially become essentially-useless later in the day.

Another key component to balancing caster types is that your world must emphasize that arcane casters are extremely dangerous. Every NPC must have grown up knowing that if you're fighting a group, take out the caster-archetype's first and as quickly as possible, preferably before they can unload their first volley. NPCs must use line-of-effect and line-of-sight to their advantage in the same way that cover matters in modern first-person shooter games.

If you want to see the full text of my Spell Points rewrite/fix, PM me and I'll send you a link to an online document that has the details.

[Petrocorus]

You must through quest design force the prepared-type casters to feel like they have to leave spell slots open (decreasing how many spells are at their immediate disposal, which is key to balancing the system) or otherwise potentially become essentially-useless later in the day.

My thought exactly, especially in a dungeon crawl, why would monster let the party rest for the night or even for 15 min. They have been attacked, they certainly are planning a counter-attack if the PC gives them time.



Another key component to balancing caster types is that your world must emphasize that arcane casters are extremely dangerous. Every NPC must have grown up knowing that if you're fighting a group, take out the caster-archetype's first and as quickly as possible, preferably before they can unload their first volley. NPCs must use line-of-effect and line-of-sight to their advantage in the same way that cover matters in modern first-person shooter games.

Totally agree, that's why in MMO, everybody is aiming for the heal first. In DnD, there is no aggro system, and there should not be. There are no reason that NPC, including smart monsters don't go for the caster first.
Imagine if the NPC were actually PC of another party, they will totally attack the caster first.

BTW, does anyon have the link to DonQuixote system?
Edit: Nevermind, found it.

[TuggyNE]

I rewrote/fixed the Unearthed Arcana "Spell Points" system that was mentioned earlier in an easily-extensible way (Ernir's system is not easily extensible, as in his system you have to homebrew every single spell in existence from the ground up, increasing your workload as GM by ten-fold).

"Balance" and "trivially convertible through a fixed rules framework" are incompatible goals, since the sole reason for spell imbalance in the first place is all the exceptions spells have in their text; as such, applying any static transform to all spells in the same way will inevitably allow broken spells through.

Of course, in this particular case I'm not sure "easily-extensible" or "balanced" are goals that are important to the OP, who mostly just wants something that's simple. Ernir's satisfies that, since the work for Core spells has been done already, all the way down to nice formatting. In fact, limiting to Core spells might even be good for simplicity; you can accomplish most things just fine without the 3000+ splatbook spells, after all.

[Psyren]

Not a good idea in the vast majority of cases. It makes wizards MUCH better, makes sorcerers relatively worse, and punishes blasting, which is already one of the worst things to do as a caster.

Basically, it exacerbates the system's problems most of the time (with corner cases being the only real exceptions).

One quick and dirty fix is to chop the spell points down quite a lot. This makes up for the fact that so few spells need augmenting to be effective.

[Artillery]

Try 3.5 psionics (and avoid 3.0 psionics completely). It uses the bare-bones basics of the 3.5 magic system (targeting and so on), but it completely forgoes the clunky, chunky, and nasty and funky spell slots system and uses a points system (similar to FFVI's magic point system). You know a certain number of psionic powers based on your levels in psionic classes and have a pool of power points to spend on them, and you can spend a number of power points per manifestation equal to your manifester (ie, caster) level. Most powers allow you to "augment" them (spend more power points to boost the effect, such as "spend +1 power point to deal +1d6 damage; for every 2 pp you spend, add +1 to the DC").

The system is considerably more streamlined and easier to play. There are a few loopholes in the system, but they're far fewer than core casting, and power points are far more easily kept track of than those stupid spell slots.

And it's even in the SRD, so you can refer to that when you need to.

Also take a look at the Pathfinder Psionics books that Dreamscarred Press did. They did a nice job and fixed some of the more broken exploits, they are on the pfsrd.

Edit: They are not rune scarred berserkers. Thanks Psyren.

[Psyren]

Also take a look at the Pathfinder Psionics books that Rune Scarred Press did. They did a nice job and fixed some of the more broken exploits, they are on the pfsrd.

Dreamscarred Press actually :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Psionics is not what you want. It's copy pasta magic. I heard World of Darkness has a more "free form" magic system. I'd suggest the GURPS one, but it's a little more on the rigid side.

I don't think anyone said it was balanced, I know I certainly didn't, just much more streamlined. It's a bit smoother and a lot more fluid without being dramatically different. I kinda thought that was what the OP was looking for.

Game balance is a whole different can of worms.

[wesisthearcher]

I don't think anyone said it was balanced, I know I certainly didn't, just much more streamlined. It's a bit smoother and a lot more fluid without being dramatically different. I kinda thought that was what the OP was looking for.

Game balance is a whole different can of worms.

Precisely. Game balance is a factor, for sure, but my group is generally really good about not actively trying to break the game. They build characters they find interesting, and don't go out of their ways to make them overly-powerful.

Looks like I've got plenty of reading to do! :smallsmile:

[Perturbulent]

I find Words of Power to be a little simpler once you get used to them. It removes the issue of duplicate spells for each power level and target. Rather, you have effects, target, and adjustments. You combine them to make a spell of a certain power.
It does, however, take a little longer to quite understand how it works.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/words-of-power

[Snowbluff]

I don't think anyone said it was balanced, I know I certainly didn't, just much more streamlined. It's a bit smoother and a lot more fluid without being dramatically different. I kinda thought that was what the OP was looking for.

Game balance is a whole different can of worms.
None of this is true. If anything, a step was added in the casting process for no benefit. I didn't say anything about balance, just that it wasn't more streamlined.

[Kelb_Panthera]

None of this is true. If anything, a step was added in the casting process for no benefit. I didn't say anything about balance, just that it wasn't more streamlined.

:smallconfused: I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

[Petrocorus]

I did say that psionics were more balanced than magic, or at least less unbalanced. You'll still have to ban some tricks, and be careful to what the players do. You'll still have linear warriors quadratic psionics (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards). And you'll still have some 8th and 9th that can clearly break the game.
But, overall, the system is less a headache for everybody, notably the DM. You have far less combos that can break the game, specially at early levels. Far less ACF, feats, badly written spells that can be abuse in many ways, and the best power are spread out in several disciplines and cannot normally be all accessed by a single character, not even a Erudite can acquire all 9th power spell.
So, the system is not balanced, but compared to magic, it's clearly better.
Probably because it was much less supported by splatbooks, but that's even better, less homework and problems, and more streamlined.

[Snowbluff]

:smallconfused: I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Psionics meets none of the criteria in the OP. :smalltongue:

For example.

I did say that psionics were more balanced than magic, or at least less unbalanced. You'll still have to ban some tricks, and be careful to what the players do. You'll still have linear warriors quadratic psionics (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards). And you'll still have some 8th and 9th that can clearly break the game.
But, overall, the system is less a headache for everybody, notably the DM. You have far less combos that can break the game, specially at early levels. Far less ACF, feats, badly written spells that can be abuse in many ways, and the best power are spread out in several disciplines and cannot normally be all accessed by a single character, not even a Erudite can acquire all 9th power spell. Through reformation or other tricks, a psion can effectively have every power.


So, the system is not balanced, but compared to magic, it's clearly better.
Probably because it was much less supported by splatbooks, but that's even better, less homework and problems, and more streamlined.
STP Erudite. Not to mention that variety is the lifeblood of 3.5.

He at least has the wisdom to point out that psionics will break your game, just like magic. Before you say that STP wouldn't be allowed, consider blanket banning splatbooks to achieve the "streamlining" effect. You'd be banning something from either magic or psionics either way.

I really dislike people disseminating false information.

[Petrocorus]

Psionics meets none of the criteria in the OP. :smalltongue:

For example.
Through reformation or other tricks, a psion can effectively have every power.

I did say that there were some tricks to ban.
Fission + Psychic Reform + Psychic Chirurgery for instance.
Fusion + Astral Seed + a way to avoid lvl loss for becoming pun-pun,
The couple of tricks that break the PP limit.
And probably a couple of others.



STP Erudite. Not to mention that variety is the lifeblood of 3.5.

He at least has the wisdom to point out that psionics will break your game, just like magic. Before you say that STP wouldn't be allowed, consider blanket banning splatbooks to achieve the "streamlining" effect. You'd be banning something from either magic or psionics either way.

I'm sorry, i am not really sure to understand these sentence about blanket banning, English is not my first language.

Anyway, the point of the OP was to replace Magic. So, StP Erudite is de facto impossible. And StP Erudite is certainly the first thing to ban if you want to make psionic less game-breaking. I read many people on these forum stating that StP Erudite could be consider T0. And you don't need to ban any book, StP is a web enhancement variant, nothing forces the DM to allow it, like nothing forces the DM to allow custom mantle Ardent or educated Wilder. Nothing forces the DM to alllow anything, anyway.


I really dislike people disseminating false information.
I'm not disseminating false information, i'm stating my opinion. And i still believe that psionic is less unbalanced than magic, that you have less thing to ban to avoid easy game-breaking, and that a lot less of work for a DM to replace magic with psionic. There a reason if psionic classes are considered T3 or T2. Of course, you can break the game with psionic, but with enough optimization, you can break the game with anything.

[Snowbluff]

I'm sorry, i am not really sure to understand these sentence about blanket banning, English is not my first language.
The idea is that you have to make a huge number of blanket bans either way, so no effort is saved in order to streamline magic by choosing manifestation over casting.

And you don't need to ban any book, StP is a web enhancement variant, nothing forces the DM to allow it, like nothing forces the DM to allow custom mantle Ardent or educated Wilder. Nothing forces the DM to alllow anything, anyway.
Web enhancements are a common assumption.


I'm not disseminating false information, i'm stating my opinion. And i still believe that psionic is less unbalanced than magic, that you have less thing to ban to avoid easy game-breaking, and that a lot less of work for a DM to replace magic with psionic. There a reason if psionic classes are considered T3 or T2. Of course, you can break the game with psionic, but with enough optimization, you can break the game with anything.
Usually I expect people to substantiate their opinions. However, you've done a pretty good job.

For posterity, T2 and T1 are not any different. It's only a measure of how many times you break the game per character, and is entirely irrelevant to a moderately optimized psion. Tiers don't assume optimization, so the obvious and minimalistic choice of taking Psychic Reformation isn't accounted for. That's the real reason why it's a T2.

[Petrocorus]

The idea is that you have to make a huge number of blanket bans either way, so no effort is saved in order to streamline magic by choosing manifestation over casting.

OK, i think that what i don't understand is what you mean by "blanket banning"?


Web enhancements are a common assumption.

Common, yes, but not every DM accept them, or rather, not every DM accept all of them. I don't see many DM having a problem with educated wilder. But the custom mantle for Ardent is already more subject to caution. Or rather to cautious use. And the StP Erudite is certainly not welcome at every table.



For posterity, T2 and T1 are not any different. It's only a measure of how many times you break the game per character, and is entirely irrelevant to a moderately optimized psion. Tiers don't assume optimization, so the obvious and minimalistic choice of taking Psychic Reformation isn't accounted for. That's the real reason why it's a T2.

I certainly do not disagree with that. I simply state that it is less difficult for a DM to keep this classes in check and to know what to expect from them compared to a Wizard or a CoDzilla. And that the non-vancian nature of the psionic system, the versatility of each powers (compare animal affinity to the equivalent spells) and lesser number of powers and feats published make it easier for both the players and the DM and more streamlined (if not completely like some others systems) that the magic one. And compared to homebrewed system, or to imported one, it's already a known and integrated system of the 3.5 and so, required much less adaptation.

As for Psychic Reform, i personally don't think it's broken on its own, it just a quick retraining powers. It become broken when combined to Thought Bottle (but everything become broken with it) or Psychic Chirurgery + Fission or Leadership/Thrallherd.

[Snowbluff]

OK, i think that what i don't understand is what you mean by "blanket banning"? Excuse me. I mean not allowing a large amount of material from a source.


Common, yes, but not every DM accept them, or rather, not every DM accept all of them. I don't see many DM having a problem with educated wilder. But the custom mantle for Ardent is already more subject to caution. Or rather to cautious use. And the StP Erudite is certainly not welcome at every table.

I don't know many DM's who have a problem with a fighter, but Wizards are more subject to caution.



As for Psychic Reform, i personally don't think it's broken on its own, it just a quick retraining powers. It become broken when combined to Thought Bottle (but everything become broken with it) or Psychic Chirurgery + Fission or Leadership/Thrallherd.
Chirurgery is a bit larger combo. Psychic Reformation is the one I often cite because it requires less parts. Are you familiar with the phrase "Experience is a river?" How I understand it is that experience points are an easily obtained resource for casters. By simply leaving yourself a level behind of your peers, you are allowed to use XP costs with impunity. Since you're a level lower, your XP gains are larger than the rest of your party's.

[Petrocorus]

Excuse me. I mean not allowing a large amount of material from a source.

Oh, okay, like putting a blanket on the whole book. That's it? Well, there are certainly many DM who do it with ToB, ToM and MoI.



I don't know many DM's who have a problem with a fighter, but Wizards are more subject to caution.

Precisely, that's why ACF that improve the Fighter are taken with much less caution than Wizard ACF. That's more or less what i meant.



Chirurgery is a bit larger combo. Psychic Reformation is the one I often cite because it requires less parts. Are you familiar with the phrase "Experience is a river?" How I understand it is that experience points are an easily obtained resource for casters. By simply leaving yourself a level behind of your peers, you are allowed to use XP costs with impunity. Since you're a level lower, your XP gains are larger than the rest of your party's.

Yes. But that requires the DM to give XP according to each PC lvl. What many DM do, indeed. But up to some point. I think many DM ends up saying stop if a player is doing it on a regular basis. At least, the DM i know have no problem using rule 0 and at some point, start giving the same XP to everybody. Psychic Reform, IMHO, was made, so the Psion / Wilder could retrain his powers and feats sometimes for a low cost and in short time or to prepare for a particular BBEG. I don't think it was intended for the Wilder to do it every day.

[Snowbluff]

Oh, okay, like putting a blanket on the whole book. That's it? Well, there are certainly many DM who do it with ToB, ToM and MoI. Precisely.


Precisely, that's why ACF that improve the Fighter are taken with much less caution than Wizard ACF. That's more or less what i meant.
I was pointing out that all materials in the system have a wide variety of power levels. Blanket banning is a solution I find lacks finesse and ultimately damages the value of 3.5. Of course, there are some material that are so bad (Complete Psionic being pretty awful, even to people who prefer psionics) that I wouldn't complain if they were cut.

Online material is usually assumed because it's free, easy to access, and the spread of power levels isn't as bad as Player's Handbook or the Expanded Psionics Handbook.



Yes. But that requires the DM to give XP according to each PC lvl. What many DM do, indeed. But up to some point. I think many DM ends up saying stop if a player is doing it on a regular basis. At least, the DM i know have no problem using rule 0 and at some point, start giving the same XP to everybody. Psychic Reform, IMHO, was made, so the Psion / Wilder could retrain his powers and feats sometimes for a low cost and in short time or to prepare for a particular BBEG. I don't think it was intended for the Wilder to do it every day.

Indeed. XP is a huge hassle. However, DMs are assumed to be using the set rules of the game when we give advice. Everyone has there different play styles, and it's really hard to pin them down without more information, hence the assumptions.

[Petrocorus]

Precisely.
I was pointing out that all materials in the system have a wide variety of power levels. Blanket banning is a solution I find lacks finesse and ultimately damages the value of 3.5. Of course, there are some material that are so bad (Complete Psionic being pretty awful, even to people who prefer psionics) that I wouldn't complain if they were cut.

Online material is usually assumed because it's free, easy to access, and the spread of power levels isn't as bad as Player's Handbook or the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

We agree on all this. I just tend to assume that web enhancement, contrary to SRD, are allowed case by case, and not as a whole.


Indeed. XP is a huge hassle. However, DMs are assumed to be using the set rules of the game when we give advice. Everyone has there different play styles, and it's really hard to pin them down without more information, hence the assumptions.

That's totally right, but i tend to assume that most DM tend to ban explicit or repeated abuse, unless they specifically want to play at high op. I mean there is optimizing, and there is abusing the wording of the rule. That's why i tend to assume that DM tend not to follow this particular XP rule to avoid XP is a river. But maybe i wrong. Maybe many DM allow XP is a river. I just don't know that many different DM.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Psionics meets none of the criteria in the OP.

I disagree. The baseline mechanic of PP's vs spell slots definitely has psionics as the more fluid option.

Magic comes in both prepared and spontaneous and there are a variety of methods to the selection of spells while psionics, with the exception of the erudite; a somewhat obscure variant class, is always the same; you get your power points, you select your powers from your class list, and that's it. That's definitely more streamlined.

They both have myriad tricks for breaking them wide open but psionics -is- more fluid and streamlined on the fundamental level.

[Snowbluff]

That's totally right, but i tend to assume that most DM tend to ban explicit or repeated abuse, unless they specifically want to play at high op. I mean there is optimizing, and there is abusing the wording of the rule. That's why i tend to assume that DM tend not to follow this particular XP rule to avoid XP is a river. But maybe i wrong. Maybe many DM allow XP is a river. I just don't know that many different DM.
This is why census data would be good for giving on this

I disagree. The baseline mechanic of PP's vs spell slots definitely has psionics as the more fluid option.

Magic comes in both prepared and spontaneous and there are a variety of methods to the selection of spells while psionics, with the exception of the erudite; a somewhat obscure variant class, is always the same; you get your power points, you select your powers from your class list, and that's it. That's definitely more streamlined.

They both have myriad tricks for breaking them wide open but psionics -is- more fluid and streamlined on the fundamental level.
Break down the steps. It literally doesn't help. Augmentation is borked. If you want, you can have all of the sorcerers intentionally lower their CL half of the time when casting blasting spells.

Literally:
1) Select Spell
2) Select Target/Area
3) Select CL/PP and augmentations.

[wesisthearcher]

So while I'm doing my research, I'm wondering about something else. I do prefer Pathfinder over 3.5, so if I use any of this homebrew or these variant systems or whatever, what sort of balancing issues am I going to run into if I use them with PF instead of 3.5?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Break down the steps. It literally doesn't help. Augmentation is borked. If you want, you can have all of the sorcerers intentionally lower their CL half of the time when casting blasting spells.

Literally:
1) Select Spell
2) Select Target/Area
3) Select CL/PP and augmentations.

That's only one very small portion of the system. It also ignores that many powers have more flexibility than their spell counterparts.

Take blasting: every spell dictates which type of energy its damage does. Powers, on the other hand, allow you to select from any of 4 and you don't have to burn maximum PP's on minor targets while the spell burns the slot it burns, period.

How about charms: a caster must learn both person and monster or else they have to waste a higher level slot on humanoids or simply cannot effect non-humanoids. A manifester need only select psionic charm and can burn more or less PP's depending on what tier of creature they're charming.

It's absurd to suggest that a manifester has less or even equal flexibility with a spontaneous caster at the time of casting. It's not even a contest with prepared casters. The fluidity of PP's over spell slots is undeniable.

The streamlining is in character construction; only the erudite uses a different mechanic, every other manifester simply chooses from his class list and can then manifest those powers freely. The ardent and divine mind are atypical in that they must first select a grouping of powers and then select powers from that grouping but it's a minor difference that has minimal impact on how they play.


So while I'm doing my research, I'm wondering about something else. I do prefer Pathfinder over 3.5, so if I use any of this homebrew or these variant systems or whatever, what sort of balancing issues am I going to run into if I use them with PF instead of 3.5?

The difference should be pretty close to negligible. PF has (or at least had) a slightly lower base-line of power but the two systems are otherwise similar enough that balancing a piece of homebrew for one or the other won't put it off from the other by much.