I want to become a web designer

[coineineagh]

I have a lot of things to learn:
HTML, CSS, JAVASCRIPT, JQUERY, XML, ASP.NET, PHP, SQL...

HTML seems simple enough, though I've been told the rest is a lot more difficult. My hope is that I can one day offer my services as web design freelancer. Currently, I'm an English teacher in China, but the prospects for the future are dismal, and I have a 2nd child coming this year.

I've always been interested in coding, so I have a feeling I'll pick things up fast. But any help is welcome. This website and forum looks well designed, so I was wondering if any experts here might be willing to impart some advice to me?

Thanks!

[FLHerne]

This subforum is solely to discuss issues with these boards, not discussion of websites in general.

Try the Friendly Banter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=29) subforum, or the existing programming thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321138)therein.

EDIT: Thread has been moved, this post is no longer relevant.

[coineineagh]

i got some ebooks from a programmer friend, and i'm reading the w3classes site.

[valadil]

You might want to check out what this person did (http://jenniferdewalt.com/). It was all over some of the coding sites I read. She started with no web dev knowledge and built a site a day for half a year. By the end they were pretty sophisticated.

[Grinner]

Having pursued this before (and actually, it's what led me to programming), I can tell you that web design doesn't pay a whole lot. That said, I have no idea what the cost of living is like in China, so it may be workable.

Let's see...I remember seeing a comic about the rigors of web design, particularly where the customer is concerned. Perhaps it was an Oatmeal comic? I'll see if I can find it later.

Last point I can make is that, yes, HTML is pretty easy. An actual programming language, like Javascript, is an incredibly different experience. You might have an easier time of learning it if you don't try to compare it to HTML, because the two are quite dissimilar.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Overview of the things you mentioned...

HTML is a pretty easy formatting language. You're correct to learn it first. I would then check out CSS, because that lets you apply flexible visual styles to your site. (Very useful! It enables you to completely change the look of your site on a whim!)

Then, Javascript is useful for a few tricks, and jQuery is a collection of Javascript functions that's focused on neat visual design stuff. So those two go together.

PHP is how you make websites which can display different information to different people. It's how forums work, but you can also use it to personalize a website. ASP.NET does the same thing, but it's not an open-source language.

XML is a way to store data and transfer it between different applications and websites. It may or may not be useful to you from the get-go.

SQL is a way to store data in a database; it's inter-linked with PHP.

I would personally recommend HTML -> CSS -> PHP -> Javascript/jQuery, then branch out however you feel. I suggest PHP mainly because that lets you start hacking Wordpress as a content framework--which is good, because it's easy to edit the content of a Wordpress site. (That's just my personal take, though. I do think it's an incredibly useful development tool. Note--this is hosting Wordpress on your own server, not using Wordpress.com)

But I can second Grinner's experience: with no connections, I had poor luck building web design customers. It was rotten. If you're going to get into it, you need to know that you have a solid ring of potential customers and connections. Start doing work for them, let them spread the word to other people who need it (and can pay), and that should keep you busy.

[coineineagh]

Here (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell) you are, Grinner. Whimsical clients is far preferable over pushy Chinese bosses and shaky visa situations when your 2nd kid is on the way.:smallwink:

My friend is a programmer himself, and I may well make that transition too. But I can't learn to program without first studying a bit of web design. Thanks for the link, Valadil, I'll check it out.

[Trog]

I dabble in web design, professionally, though I'm a graphic designer by trade. Sass (http://sass-lang.com) is a handy extension language to CSS. The more CSS you write the more you'll see just how handy this is.

With Sass you can do things like assign variables to your stylesheets. So coding:
$primary-color: #333;
In Sass, allows you to code your CSS like so:
body {
color: $primary-color;
}
Then, when you compile, Sass renders your CSS like this:
body {
color: #333;
}
The great thing about it is that by calling out that variable you created in Sass in your uncompiled CSS, you only need to change the one Sass variable to change ALL the instances of it in the compiled CSS document! :smallcool: Very handy for easy universal changes.

You don't need to learn Sass now, but be sure to bookmark it for later, after you've familiarized yourself with CSS.

Best of luck! :smallsmile:

[blunk]

Just a couple additions to some generally good information:


Then, Javascript is useful for a few tricks, and jQuery is a collection of Javascript functions that's focused on neat visual design stuff. So those two go together.
...
I would personally recommend HTML -> CSS -> PHP -> Javascript/jQuery, then branch out however you feel.OP: as a web designer, you may only care about the "few tricks" and the "neat visual design stuff". But as a programmer first, I would say "JS is a full-fledged, powerful programming language, and jQuery makes programming JS a lot easier". Maybe you'll never care that there's a lot more power available there, but maybe you will.

I would probably do "HTML -> CSS -> JS/jQuery, then branch out", because I'm not sure that there's a long future in PHP. But I could be wrong.

[coineineagh]

Thanks, guys and gals. I'm looking at some of the free editing programs to get me started: Komodo, CoffeeCup and XAMPP. From the look of things, i have a lot to learn. I'm converting a game guide I wrote for some starter's practice.

[Flickerdart]

You say web designer, but you've named a list of development technologies. Do you want to design or develop sites?

This website and forum looks well designed
It's...really, really not, and you have to look no further than the fixed-width sidebar nobody ever uses and the always-full-width content area to find problems with it.

[Mike T]

Do you want to design or develop sites?

What's the difference?

[The Grue]

What's the difference?

It's analagous to the difference between an architect and a carpenter.

[blunk]

It's analagous to the difference between an architect and a carpenter.Eh, we can do better than that.

In this context, a web designer is more interested in designing the user experience, and creating the user-facing content to deliver that experience. So he'll be concerned with things like static images, HTML, CSS, and a small amount of front-end/browser code (in e.g., Javascript) to flesh out the experience - for cycling images, alerts on incomplete forms, things of that level.

A web developer is more interested in delivering the information that the designer uses to deliver the user experience. So he'll be concerned with the internal database and back-end/server code (in e.g. Python or many others) used to pull information from it, and the deeper front-end code to receive that information. (He also handles information flowing in the other direction - e.g., for saving user information in the database.)

[Seerow]

Eh, we can do better than that.

In this context, a web designer is more interested in designing the user experience, and creating the user-facing content to deliver that experience. So he'll be concerned with things like static images, HTML, CSS, and a small amount of front-end/browser code (in e.g., Javascript) to flesh out the experience - for cycling images, alerts on incomplete forms, things of that level.

A web developer is more interested in delivering the information that the designer uses to deliver the user experience. So he'll be concerned with the internal database and back-end/server code (in e.g. Python or many others) used to pull information from it, and the deeper front-end code to receive that information. (He also handles information flowing in the other direction - e.g., for saving user information in the database.)

In either case, a good knowledge of HTML/CSS is a must (yes even when working on the backend of web development, it helps a lot to understand how those things work, if only for testing/debugging before your front-end designers get you the real page to work with your code), but yeah past that where you want to focus your attention really depends on what you want to do.

Personally, I'm no good with aesthetics, and generally find working with HTML/CSS boring as sin, but I don't mind working on building web apps. But someone with a more artistic bent would want to focus more on CSS and derivatives (like the Sass someone mentioned above) plus general graphic design, as well as user interface design, site flow, and the like.

[blunk]

In either case, a good knowledge of HTML/CSS is a must (yes even when working on the backend of web development...)Totally. Conversely, the better a designer is with front-end coding, the more self-reliant he is and the better he can diagnose (even fix) the developers' bugs.

[Flickerdart]

That's not really the salient point. A designer, first and foremost, designs - this is a process that begins with ideation techniques and a healthy amount of domain research, and continues into scenario development, information architecture, wireframing, and mockups. There is an immense amount of work and expertise required before you commit a single line of code.

It's entirely possible for a designer to know absolutely nothing of HTML and still be able to design websites (or apps, or programs), because he is concerned with interactions, content flow, and the one constant (people) that exists throughout all interactive domains. The implementation technology is very nearly irrelevant to a designer, except for feasibility concerns.

A developer, on the other hand, takes that design and implements it. He's the one that needs to know all the tech stuff.

Will you be a better web designer if you know HTML, CSS, Javascript, and other prototyping tools? Yes. Will you be hired over someone who doesn't? Probably. But if you don't have the design part of web design down, you're not even going to be considered.

[blunk]

A designer, first and foremost, designsYour definitions are obviously correct in the classic sense. But in common usage, "web designer" is often used to encompass both what you're calling "designer" and "developer", especially in smaller companies where the process is far less formal than what you've outlined. And since the OP listed technologies from both, it's reasonable to assume that he is using this common definition.

It's a fair question whether the OP is more interested in your "designer" or "developer" sides, but he may be equally interested in both. And he may want to throw back-end development in, as well.

[Flickerdart]

And since the OP listed technologies from both
What specifically worries me is that technologies is all the OP listed, while they are only half of the picture at best. I'm not just being pedantic: ever since the rise of desktop publishing, people have been confusing the profession for its shiniest tools, and a lot of effort has been put into developing the discipline of design in the public consciousness beyond straightforward layout craft.

[blunk]

What specifically worries me is that technologies is all the OP listed, while they are only half of the picture at best. I'm not just being pedantic: ever since the rise of desktop publishing, people have been confusing the profession for its shiniest tools, and a lot of effort has been put into developing the discipline of design in the public consciousness beyond straightforward layout craft.Well, you obviously take pride in your chosen field (assuming it *is* your chosen field), and that's commendable. But like it or not, many will take less pride; they will focus on the technologies, and they might even get jobs after doing so.

But if you're fighting the "take it more seriously" fight, I'm not going to argue with you. :smallsmile:

[blunk]

I'll also add that the OP's personal situation, as he described it, may limit the amount of time and energy he can spend on theory and fundamentals, as opposed to pure "just give me a paycheck" pragmatism.

[coineineagh]

To answer the question: I'm hoping that I'll display an aptitude towards coding in the future, but I won't know until I actually get there. Then I might be able to make the switch to programmer, but my hopes are taking giant, premature leaps. There are fewer skilled programmers out there, so if I can be skilled at that, I might be able to make it into a full-time career.

As for web design; part of it is tied to aesthetics, and I've never been known to have a hightened sense for aesthetics, as my opening comment about this site proves. Maybe it's true that I'd get annoyed by whimsical demands of clients quickly. Right now, another teacher wants me to help them build a website.

I'm currently assessing whether the task is within my beginner's capabilities:

"I'm not sure if it's complex or not. It would be a website with some tabs or dropdowns, some hyperlinks to MS Office documents stored on a Godaddy server or other, maybe the option for users to send feedback, and space for google ads to bring in revenue. I have a stockpile of ESL games that I've designed in powerpoint and word. I've been teaching for four years now, so my students have been my lab rats. These games work very well for any amateur teacher, and they fit to any content. I've used these games with adults as well as 4 year old students. If you shoot me an email, I can show you a ppt. My co worker has a master's in English, so he is interested in expanding the site with a grammar forum, maybe a Q & A. It would be impossible to sell these games with the lack of copyright enforcement, so giving them away one a week would create more traffic to the website. I've thought it through and adverts would be the only way to go."

It sounds like a great beginner's project for me, what do you guys think?