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View Full Version : Roleplaying How Do You Like Your Devil Contracts: Convoluted, or Dark Side Up?



Vrock_Summoner
2014-02-09, 05:36 AM
Title is actually pretty descriptive, despite the pun. How do you like literal "deals with the devil" dealt with in your games? This is most prevalent in D&D, but is present in some form across many roleplaying games. Do you prefer constant Monkey's Pawing? Heavy costs but getting what's on the tin with no trickery? Should they not exist (assuming they do in your related game)? What kinds of things should you be able to get out of them? And in what sorts of scenarios is it appropriate to implement them? Also feel free to give any comments related to the topic that don't pertain to the above questions.

Lord Raziere
2014-02-09, 05:50 AM
After reading Vaarsuvius's deal?

a fair but damning one.

you get what you wish for, and you what you sell seems innocuous and unimportant at the time.

But somehow what you wish for corrupts you to do evil without any real push from the contractor themselves. all they do is hand you the power to screw yourself over with- not add in anything they use to screw you over.

then when it seems you get everything you wanted out of the deal, but feel shame and sadness out of getting it, the devil starts calling in your side of the deal and suddenly what seem unimportant then becomes very important now and you kick yourself for agreeing to it and not seeing it coming.

Mastikator
2014-02-09, 07:33 AM
I agree with Raz. They should trick you into thinking something precious to you has a low value and that you're getting a reasonable trade. Or exploit your desperation.
If however you can trick the devil then the devil begrudgingly holds his end of the bargain not just to the letter but also to the spirit. He's not a genie that will interpret your wish literally.
I think it's important that it's possible to trick the devil.

Grinner
2014-02-09, 10:21 AM
These are the sort of things that sound great during planning sessions but utterly fail in-game. The cleanest sort are the kind of fairy tales: simple and artfully presented. The problem arises when the players enter the scene. Because they, quite naturally, want to get something for nothing, they'll start to look for loopholes, leading to an arms race of litigation.

All I want is a plot hook, not a law degree!

Plus, it's really hard to be so clever as a professional pact-maker.

Beelzebub1111
2014-02-09, 10:47 AM
First, I determine what the entity granting the wish wants, and its ability to fulfill it.
Second, I decide how best to phrase what they offer so that it sounds the most appealing.
Third, I warn the PC through IC means to the exact danger of the deal.

For example, The Dreaming Dark wanted a PC to join their ranks, they offered him "Power and Freedom" in exchange for "Service" not specifying how they would do this. I dropped many hints that this was a bad deal for him. When he asked what freedom was from he said "Obligation, Responsibility, All internal struggle." He still said yes, I made the process of "Accepting" them as clear as possible so that he would know that I was talking about allowing himself to be posessed, and he didn't interrupt. SO we had a combat and an exorcism.

He knew not to trust these guys after that.

First and foremost, think about what you, the GM, want out of this interraction. I wanted that player to learn not to take everything at face value and to be wary of smiling tigers. and no matter what choice he made he learned that lesson.

NichG
2014-02-09, 11:03 AM
These are the sort of things that sound great during planning sessions but utterly fail in-game. The cleanest sort are the kind of fairy tales: simple and artfully presented. The problem arises when the players enter the scene. Because they, quite naturally, want to get something for nothing, they'll start to look for loopholes, leading to an arms race of litigation.

All I want is a plot hook, not a law degree!

Plus, it's really hard to be so clever as a professional pact-maker.

This is a good point. I think the way to deal with this is to make the consequences immediate and not 'debatable', and at the same time to not have creatures that care all that much about legalese doing the deals - possibly having the creature restate the deal in simpler language before going through with it, so it controls the degree of convolution that is present.

For example, in my current campaign, there's a wand that one PC has that 'Does anything, once, for a given user. but regardless of what's asked for, the wand itself immediately gets to make its own wish whenever its used.'

The user's wish won't be genied, because the wand doesn't need to genie the user's wish to make this a dark deal. Both the user and the wand get to edit the universe, and the wand's nature makes it sort of adversarial - its looking for a chance to show that its wish will bring about more chaos than the user's wish will bring about happiness. If the user wishes for a ham sandwich, the wand can still wish for the sun to dim and famine to spread across the land - there's no proportionality, so if you use it, use it big.

Boci
2014-02-09, 11:05 AM
After reading Vaarsuvius's deal?

a fair but damning one.

you get what you wish for, and you what you sell seems innocuous and unimportant at the time.

But somehow what you wish for corrupts you to do evil without any real push from the contractor themselves. all they do is hand you the power to screw yourself over with- not add in anything they use to screw you over.

then when it seems you get everything you wanted out of the deal, but feel shame and sadness out of getting it, the devil starts calling in your side of the deal and suddenly what seem unimportant then becomes very important now and you kick yourself for agreeing to it and not seeing it coming.

That does sound good, but how do you get that to work when you do not control the characters?

BWR
2014-02-09, 01:59 PM
It's never actually come up in a game that I've run and only once to a player in one game (and the rest of the players never found out the details of that bargain). I guess it would depend greatly on circumstances, the parties in question and the desired rewards.
If you have a demonic entity that just wants to promote the maximum amount of chaos and pain and a guy who is more than happy to do this I can imagine the deal being something like "I want power to destroy the kingdom" - "Sure, here're a couple of demon-dudes to help you. Have fun"

If you have a really corruptor sort who wants to slowly ensnare and corrupt someone I can imagine a lot more work going into it. Introduction to said person, small favors for free, get them hooked on aid and dependant on your help, asking for small things in return, gradually getting worse until the victim is hopelessly buried under evil deeds and deals.

Or someone who knows what they're getting into and tries to wiggle around to minimize the amount paid, there could be a long, difficult densely worded contract with tons of fine print, carefully worded phrases, unusual definitions laid out in some obscure book the victim has never heard of, and anything to trip them up.

Lord Raziere
2014-02-09, 02:57 PM
That does sound good, but how do you get that to work when you do not control the characters?

Well players and characters often want things already. you don't offer them something they don't want.

that and you can control the situation to be really desperate. desperate enough to make them consider it.

and of course make the devil immune to fire and explosions. thats a given.

also make it clear that in hell's law, its literally possible to get something for "Nothing" but that when the devil calls up their payment, they are the sole interpreters of what "Nothing" means. which can include "Doing Nothing At An Important Event" or "Getting Nothing As A Reward For Killing The Dragon" or "The Damage you Deal to that Monster no one else can stop is Nothing" etc. and would basically be an open ticket for the Devil to screw you over in some way.

also make it clear OOC that the deal itself won't kill them or do anything permanent like mind control.

thats all I can think of right now.

NichG
2014-02-09, 03:22 PM
Not taking the deal has to be a valid option for the character. If you want to play this game, your job as DM is to make the deal so enticing that the player forgets what they know to be true just for a moment - that this will screw them over eventually - and takes it anyhow.

If you can't actually make it enticing to the player, then either it won't work or will feel too railroaded to really give them an interesting experience from it.

Vrock_Summoner
2014-02-09, 03:49 PM
Not taking the deal has to be a valid option for the character. If you want to play this game, your job as DM is to make the deal so enticing that the player forgets what they know to be true just for a moment - that this will screw them over eventually - and takes it anyhow.

If you can't actually make it enticing to the player, then either it won't work or will feel too railroaded to really give them an interesting experience from it.

"Hey, Paladin! Devil Mays Here! Are you sick of being utterly outperformed in every way by your full-casting buddies? Would you like this Holy Avenger? It can be yours, and for a limited time, I'll even add in giving you the Half-Celestial Template! All for one easy payment of your mortal soul! (Plus shipping and handling)"

UndertakerSheep
2014-02-09, 04:00 PM
One of the players in my current 4e campaign plays a tiefling hexblade, who's main goal is to restore the ancient tiefling empire of Bael Turath to its former ultimate glory.

At one point on this quest, he made a pact with a recurring succubus: she would give him power (and she has a lot, as daughter of an Archduke of Hell), and in return he will marry only her when he becomes emperor. She also knows everything he knows.

It didn't seem like much to him at first. His character isn't interested in women or offspring (he intends to live forever). But it soon became clear that the succubus knowing everything he knows, is going to make it next to impossible to get rid of her. Formulating a plan to kill her? She knows all about it.

So yeah, I'd go for the ''make them feel like what they're giving up isn't important, while it actually is''.

NichG
2014-02-09, 04:02 PM
C'mon, tempt them with what they want as a player and a character at the same time:



Dear Paladin,

I know you must be tired of protecting people around you who do more evil than good. Watching your friends stain their souls with casual evils, slowly becoming the very monsters they hunt.

I can give you an enchantment that would ensure that you and your friends can never harm an innocent, intentionally or not. A sort of souped-up Phylactery of Faithfulness. No, it won't kill you or turn you into statues or anything, but your weapons and spells simply will wash off of innocents like so much rain.

Better yet, think about how easy it will be to tell who deserves your divine wrath and who does not! Now you don't have to hold back for fear of nasty divine gotchas - no issues with catching an orc civilian with your attack - oh, that orc actually never killed anyone and was secretly neutral, now you'd better fall!

Cost? Hm.. what would be fair. How about this - 40 years from now, your alignment will slip one step towards chaotic and you'll stop being a Paladin. By then you'll be an old man, so its hardly going to make a difference, right? And its not as if your god will abandon you for being a little chaotic, you just won't be a paladin anymore.


Trap: There are almost no true innocents. The phylactery does nothing. It does however maintain the Paladin class features for the holder, meaning that the PC can go as evil as he wants without ever finding out via loss of power.

Mrc.
2014-02-09, 04:27 PM
I always plan these far in advance of what is likely to happen (not railroading, I do a timeline for all major NPCs and this will be where the PCs interact with or anger the wrong/right person). However, I think it's important to know your players. There is something to be said for having a devil screw the party over but I've had people storm out over that and ultimately it is detrimental to the gaming environment. I find that giving the players a way of one-upping the devil makes them feel great, so long as it is done rarely.

For example, I ran a campaign once where the party happened across a relatively weak demon who was in possession of something far more powerful than it knew or by all rights should have. The paladin of the group(!) approached the demon and demanded the artifact on the spot. Knowing the player to be a great lover of Norse mythology, I had the demon sneer back; "Fine, but in return I want your head!" Of course, knowing what was coming the paladin agreed, and the demon eagerly handed over the artifact and was just about to attempt to sever the paladins head when, in a clear voice, the paladin stated; "Just what are you attempting to do? The deal was for my head and my head alone! How dare you lay a finger on my neck!" Unable to remove the paladins head without damaging his neck the demon howled in frustration before fleeing. It was at this point that I gently reminded the player that he had done a deal with a demon. However, I believe that his deity would applaud outwitting a fiend so instead he was gently reprimanded.

I can honestly say I don't think that player ever enjoyed D&D more.

The Oni
2014-02-09, 04:39 PM
C'mon, tempt them with what they want as a player and a character at the same time:

Trap: There are almost no true innocents. The phylactery does nothing. It does however maintain the Paladin class features for the holder, meaning that the PC can go as evil as he wants without ever finding out via loss of power.

And, when he finally finds that one innocent, and his blade turns to figurative clay in his hands, comprehension dawns...

Kane0
2014-02-09, 05:16 PM
I like my contracts as devious and cunning as my DM can conceive. So cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.

Failing that, something that will obviously screw you over but manages to be worth considering anyway.

That said, the contract should at least give you what you wanted. Thats the difference between a genie wish and a deal with the devil.

veti
2014-02-09, 05:22 PM
Straightforward but vague. "I'll do you this favour, and one day I'll come back to you and ask for a favour in return."

The player knows they're going to get screwed, but not when or how. And I've got an easy plot hook whenever I want one.

Red Fel
2014-02-09, 05:45 PM
In the classic words of Asmodeus, "Read the fine print."

Before I begin, let me just say that, if I wrote this entire post in evil text, I'd run out of purple. So let's just pretend, hmm?

A good Faustian deal is specially tailored to the situation - to the facts, people, and events involved.

First rule: Play to personality. When trying to corrupt a Paladin, he's going to assume you're lying and concealing. So be straight with him - he's going to doubt you anyway. Make him an offer that's literally too good to refuse. But with someone who thinks he can outsmart you - a Wizard, for example - don't be afraid to feign an oopsie. Layer your contract, and be sure that he can reveal one of the more obvious hidden meanings. He'll be so proud of himself for figuring out the trick that he'll miss all of the other hidden meanings.

Second rule: No surprises. Even if you sneak tricks into your contracts, make them obvious in retrospect. The sort of thing heroes kick themselves over missing. The irony is delicious, but more importantly, the players won't feel completely robbed. So be specific - the more specific, the better. Specific doesn't preclude vague, mind you. A classic example is "When I return, I'll take your hand." This may mean a limb, or it may mean marriage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHL3IPfYThw). Vague language begets suspicion; precise language prevents them from weaseling out.

Third rule: No legalese. As others have suggested, players shouldn't need a law degree to play this game. Tricky and precise wording is good; convoluted clauses involving elaborate language, punctuation, and numerous pseudonyms and redefinitions is just a jerky move.

Fourth rule: Always deliver. When someone signs a contract, they get exactly what they paid for. Sometimes, giving them what they want is so good that the fun isn't even in the fee you extract. A classic example is a Midas Wish - you can demand a very negligible fee for that sort of trick, since the real payoff is the misery they suffer from their own poor thinking.

Fifth rule: Be open to renegotiate. In fact, designing contracts as a slippery slope arrangement is part of the art-form. A good Faustian contract has a decent payoff; a great Faustian's payoff is another Faustian. And never assume you have only one client, either. Consider this. You want the Paladin's soul. But he's untouchable. Instead you sell the Fighter a sword. It's bloodthirsty, now he's bloodthirsty; he's damned. The Cleric is able to figure out where the sword came from - you were careful to make it apparent. The Cleric comes to you demanding a cure. You make him the offer; an orphan's tears. He does something unthinkable, loses favor with his deity and his faith; now he's a goner. Finally, the Paladin realizes what has happened, and confronts you. You make him the Final Offer - him for the other two. Which leads us to...

Sixth rule: Keep your eyes on the prize. Don't just make contracts for fun, fun though they may be. Always have a goal. Every deal you make, every signature and soul you take, should be in pursuit of that goal. Each contract is little more than a piece on the board, to be acquired and lost and exchanged as you move towards the King. A single King is worth an army of Pawns; always go for the King.

Now, in terms of the more mechanical aspects, the best time to make a deal is when the PCs are desperate. That's how Evil thrives; when people are willing to do what's Easy instead of what's Right. A friendly merchant you can trust to be untrustworthy is easy to implement at a moment of desperation.

But even before that, if you like, you can have a merchant on hand with a cursed item, a snake oil salesman in town making offers for needful things, an itinerant clergyman with an unusual penchant for knowing exactly what people want. If your players aren't suspicious of people like this, teach them to be.

As a gameplay aspect, however, be ready to provide them with three outs. Every problem should have at least three solutions. Some possible outs include Embrace damnation. Become evil and revel in it. Seize the contract. If your Faustian friend is dumb enough to keep the contracts as the equivalent of bearer bonds (admittedly a convenient way to deal in souls), take the document. Alternatively, buy it for market price or find a way to take it by force or authority. Make an exchange. Maybe the PC isn't the King your merchant of souls is after. Give the PC a chance to buy himself out of the hole - knowing that doing so is likely an Evil act. Take over Hell. If you own the place, you own all the contracts. It's not an easy solution - Asmodeus might take issue - but it works.Or any other idea you can think of. Be creative.

And remember the seventh rule: Some contracts are designed to be loss leaders. Sometimes, you want the PCs to "win" their way out of a contract - not only for fun at the table, but also to make them overconfident.

We love overconfidence.

EDIT: Allow me a few examples.

1. Contract for whatever. The price is as follows: "At some point in the next year, I will come to you. When I do, you will simply sit. That's all. For five minutes, I just want you to sit there. If I don't do this within the next year, you have no further obligations." Sitting seems innocent. Fast-forward nine months. The party is in the House of Nobles, which is now voting on a proposal to raise an army to fight against the invading devil-worshipping hordes from the North. The Speaker announces, "All in favor, please rise." The PC(s) in question feel a tap on the shoulder. "Please remain seated," whispers the deal-maker, "I'm calling in my favor." The vote fails, and the Northerners invade.

2. "See this coin?" The devil takes out a rather distinctive gold coin. "I'm very fond of it. My price is this. If I ever drop it someplace, you must pick it up for me. That's all. If you see it, pick it up." Fast-forward. The party is in an ancient temple of sealed evil. The final seal can only be broken by the touch of a noble warrior. The PCs read the inscriptions, and realize that they're safe; as long as they don't touch the seal, the evil within can never be released. They turn to leave - but one sees a gold coin resting on the seal. A very distinctive gold coin. And he knows what he has to do.

3. "You know," says the deal-maker, "I'm a reasonable fellow. I like to know with whom I'm dealing. So here's my price. Someday, I'm going to ask you for your name. Calm down, I'm not going to steal it or anything. I just want you to remind me, in a loud, clear voice. When I ask you, say your name, loud and clear." Fast-forward. The party has infiltrated some sort of ceremony, where either (a) a sacrifice will be given, or (b) a vessel will be chosen to receive some terrible, corrupting power. The master of ceremonies then intones, "And who is the one who has been chosen for this task?" Suddenly, the PC hears a voice. "I like to know with whom I'm dealing. Why don't you remind me; what's your name?"

AuraTwilight
2014-02-09, 06:01 PM
+1 what Red Fel said. He took the words out of my mouth.

sktarq
2014-02-09, 06:29 PM
Red Fel that post officially put you on a short list of people whose games I feel am I am missing out on by not being there.

oudeis
2014-02-09, 07:01 PM
I am at a loss to understand how deals with Evil Extraplanars work in-game, especially with all the meta-game knowledge players have about these things. In a world where the ability to Detect Evil is about as common as the ability to detect spoiled meat, where the Outer Planes are not only known but actually charted- practically censused- who would be stupid enough to consider this in the first place, let alone actually take the deal? Who would forfeit an afterlife in Heaven for mundane temporal power? This is something that has puzzled me for quite a while.



Demon "In exchange for your immortal soul, of whose existence there is empirical proof and of whose ultimate fate is the subject of first-hand tales of those who have actually visited the paradise everlasting that awaits those who don't sell said soul, you will receive a decent amount of power, say 6.5- maybe 7- on a 10-point scale for as long as ye shall live; upon the ending of your mortal existence, whether by old age, violence, natural catastrophes, other violence, unavoidable accidents, more violence, avoidable accidents, random violence, suspicious accidents, drunken violence, incredibly-unlikely-but-not-provably-faked-or-staged-accidents, or blocked arteries resulting from excessive consumption of beef, cheese, butter, and other high-cholesterol foods, you shall be ours to torment for eternity!
*bursts into fiendish laughter*

[the richly-garbed mage appears to consider the deal]



*bursts into hysterical laughter*
[B]Mage: "Do I sound like the village idiot to you? What kind of *******s are you used to dealing with, anyway? BEAT IT, DUMBASS!"



I'm not trying to make fun of anyone here- the examples in this thread are obviously well-thought out and I think well done. I just can't grasp the mechanics of it. The only way I can see it working is if the Divine Forces of the universe are so distant, so indifferent, or so rarely in evidence that there is serious doubt as to their existence. If that's the case, though, where are all these Clerics walking around here *waves hand* getting their power? And even if that is the case, doesn't the existence of the various anti-evil spells- or, more properly, anti-EVIL spells- pretty much point to any contact with EEs as A Bad Thing? The first time someone actually summoned an Outsider word would spread pretty fast.



Stupid Mage: "By the name of the One Who Walked through The Fire, by the most vile and blasphemous conjunctions of the stars on this night, I, Etruch the Cunning, do summon the servitors of The Pit to me!!!"

*small mushroom cloud of flame and a puff of smoke*

15' tall Flaming Pit Fiend: "In accordance with the ancient compact, I, Yazzatag, do appear before thee, O Wise One. Speak thy bidding to me!"

Now-considerably-paler-and-probably-damper Stupid Mage: "Holy ****!!!!!! You mean this **** actually works?!?!?!? Devons and Demils- I mean Demons and Devils- actually exist?!?! Oh am I so utterly boned!!"

*hauls ass for the nearest Temple of Light™*


How do you work Infernal Deals into the meta-mechanics or whatever of your games?

Slipperychicken
2014-02-09, 07:03 PM
For example, I ran a campaign once where the party happened across a relatively weak demon who was in possession of something far more powerful than it knew or by all rights should have. The paladin of the group(!) approached the demon and demanded the artifact on the spot. Knowing the player to be a great lover of Norse mythology, I had the demon sneer back; "Fine, but in return I want your head!" Of course, knowing what was coming the paladin agreed, and the demon eagerly handed over the artifact and was just about to attempt to sever the paladins head when, in a clear voice, the paladin stated; "Just what are you attempting to do? The deal was for my head and my head alone! How dare you lay a finger on my neck!" Unable to remove the paladins head without damaging his neck the demon howled in frustration before fleeing. It was at this point that I gently reminded the player that he had done a deal with a demon. However, I believe that his deity would applaud outwitting a fiend so instead he was gently reprimanded.

I can honestly say I don't think that player ever enjoyed D&D more.

That demon shuld totally have just cut off ~9/10 of the Pallies skull, left the lower jawbone, then said he was being generous by not taking the full share. And then the Pally falls because making deals with fiends is an evil act.

Tragak
2014-02-09, 07:04 PM
I am at a loss to understand how deals with Evil Extraplanars work in-game, especially with all the meta-game knowledge players have about these things. In a world where the ability to Detect Evil is about as common as the ability to detect spoiled meat, where the Outer Planes are not only known but actually charted- practically censused- who would be stupid enough to consider this in the first place, let alone actually take the deal? Who would forfeit an afterlife in Heaven for mundane temporal power? This is something that has puzzled me for quite a while.

I'm not trying to make fun of anyone here- the examples in this thread are obviously well-thought out and I think well done. I just can't grasp the mechanics of it. The only way I can see it working is if the Divine Forces of the universe are so distant, so indifferent, or so rarely in evidence that there is serious doubt as to their existence. If that's the case, though, where are all these Clerics walking around here *waves hand* getting their power? And even if that is the case, doesn't the existence of the various anti-evil spells- or, more properly, anti-EVIL spells- pretty much point to any contact with EEs as A Bad Thing? The first time someone actually summoned an Outsider word would spread pretty fast.

How do you work Infernal Deals into the meta-mechanics or whatever of your games? Think of it this way: why do people make deals with organized crime syndicates in the real world?

Grinner
2014-02-09, 07:05 PM
@Red Fel: Well put. While I like what you've got (to the point that I intend to save it for future reference), there are ways out of the given scenarios that the players will, barring some mechanic like FATE's Compels, take advantage of.

I say this not to undermine your point but to prove my own, that players are all without appreciation for such drama. They just want their free lunch.


I am at a loss to understand how deals with Evil Extraplanars work in-game, especially with all the meta-game knowledge players have about these things. In a world where the ability to Detect Evil is about as common as the ability to detect spoiled meat, where the Outer Planes are not only known but actually charted- practically censused- who would be stupid enough to consider this in the first place, let alone actually take the deal? Who would forfeit an afterlife in Heaven for mundane temporal power? This is something that has puzzled me for quite a while.

First, player characters are not supposed to know these things. They just do because the players study the relevant sourcebooks religiously and because D&D is such an overdeveloped, broken heap.

Second, the best pacts are those made out of need rather than greed. (i.e. Vaarsuvius)

Vrock_Summoner
2014-02-09, 07:14 PM
I am at a loss to understand how deals with Evil Extraplanars work in-game, especially with all the meta-game knowledge players have about these things. In a world where the ability to Detect Evil is about as common as the ability to detect spoiled meat, where the Outer Planes are not only known but actually charted- practically censused- who would be stupid enough to consider this in the first place, let alone actually take the deal? Who would forfeit an afterlife in Heaven for mundane temporal power? This is something that has puzzled me for quite a while.




I'm not trying to make fun of anyone here- the examples in this thread are obviously well-thought out and I think well done. I just can't grasp the mechanics of it. The only way I can see it working is if the Divine Forces of the universe are so distant, so indifferent, or so rarely in evidence that there is serious doubt as to their existence. If that's the case, though, where are all these Clerics walking around here *waves hand* getting their power? And even if that is the case, doesn't the existence of the various anti-evil spells- or, more properly, anti-EVIL spells- pretty much point to any contact with EEs as A Bad Thing? The first time someone actually summoned an Outsider word would spread pretty fast.




How do you work Infernal Deals into the meta-mechanics or whatever of your games?

It's easier than you think because an in-game world is made up almost entirely of NPCs level 1-6 who really don't have proof that any of that truly exists. Except Cleric spells, but those work on devotion to ideal too, so for all you know churches are just groups of Clerics with the same ideal who think there is a God Among Us. (Yay references)

Also, it's not at all hard if you offer the right reward. The power to save millions of people who would be killed and soul-ganked in exchange for personal damnation seems like a good deal to a sufficiently altruistic character. Also, characters who figure "eh, I'm going to hell anyway" could still be useful to the devils as deal-pawns, so both sides have something to gain and thus those deals will probably happen pretty often (though it is neither as glorious nor as heart-wrenching).

Qwertystop
2014-02-09, 07:16 PM
Red Fel, those are great.

To actually contribute to the discussion:
There's a character who goes by "Mister" something, different every deal, or just "the Mister". He makes deals as follows: He offers you something, plain-english, and not granted in any subtle is-it-magic-or-isn't-it way either. The cost is always the same: You have to be complicit in the death of a friend/ally/non-estranged family member. You don't have to kill them, but you have to agree to their death, which is similarly obvious. You make the deal, you get what he offered, the person dies abruptly. Of course, what he offers typically has some flaw - no grammatical twisting, but you don't get anything extra to help you deal with the results.

Zelphas
2014-02-09, 07:22 PM
Oudeis, I think you're working off of the assumption that given proof that bad deeds=bad consequences, the majority of people would shun them. Sometimes, however, being told that doing a specific thing will cause a bad result just means that the person would look for a way out of that bad result. For a real world example: the crime of murder in most countries is punished by a hefty jail sentence. Taken logically, the act of murder (in most cases) is not worth the price of losing your freedom, if not your life. However, murders still occur; the people who do them just make varying attempts to keep from getting caught. In D&D, this is the exact reason why liches exist: a way of "getting away with" their evil deeds without paying the consequences.

To relate this back to deals with devils: if you have a character that is savvy enough to know that their soul is not worth bargaining over, don't put it on the table in the first place. Have them do something that, at worst, could be considered Neutral. You can twist Neutral to do as bad or worse than straight Evil.
As to why anyone would accept the deal: Like Red Fel said, hit the PCs when their desperate. The kingdom is under siege, and the capital city is about to fall; or the PCs are about to face a TPK; or the morally ambiguous character that the PCs have been trying desperately to turn to good is on the brink of death. From a rational standpoint, accepting a deal with Devils is never a good idea. The key, then, is to offer the deal when the PCs aren't able to be rational.

EDIT: Swordsaged, twice, and both were much better explained.

Red Fel
2014-02-09, 08:14 PM
I am at a loss to understand how deals with Evil Extraplanars work in-game, especially with all the meta-game knowledge players have about these things. In a world where the ability to Detect Evil is about as common as the ability to detect spoiled meat, where the Outer Planes are not only known but actually charted- practically censused- who would be stupid enough to consider this in the first place, let alone actually take the deal? Who would forfeit an afterlife in Heaven for mundane temporal power? This is something that has puzzled me for quite a while.

. . .

I'm not trying to make fun of anyone here- the examples in this thread are obviously well-thought out and I think well done. I just can't grasp the mechanics of it. The only way I can see it working is if the Divine Forces of the universe are so distant, so indifferent, or so rarely in evidence that there is serious doubt as to their existence. If that's the case, though, where are all these Clerics walking around here *waves hand* getting their power? And even if that is the case, doesn't the existence of the various anti-evil spells- or, more properly, anti-EVIL spells- pretty much point to any contact with EEs as A Bad Thing? The first time someone actually summoned an Outsider word would spread pretty fast.

The point is this: Not everyone is focused on the afterlife. Many people - very many, even in a world where divine powers are literally made manifest - are more focused on the here-and-now of their material present than some distant and symbolic future. Even ones who do lend some thought to the afterlife may not care. You make light of the fact that there are Detect Evil spells - well, there's also Atonement. If you're sincere in your repentance, a high-level Cleric can literally wipe the slate clean. There are larger-than-life heroes who save the souls of the damned and despairing on a regular basis. So why not take the gamble?

And that's the key thing. Even if your PCs are aware that they may be entitled to an eternity of bliss as Petitioners on Celestia or someplace, they may not want to die yet. They may want that moment's reprieve, that second chance. Or maybe they're willing to die - and be damned - to prevent something worse. Maybe they're willing to make that bargain to save a child, or a town, or a kingdom. The point is that every hero - every single one - has at least one moment of desperation, one defining moment, where the easy road would be so welcomed, so priceless, so incomprehensibly perfect.

And that's when the nice fellow with the perfect smile and the contract appears.

Diabolical compacts aren't made for everyone, or every day. They're made for that one perfect person, at that one perfect time. They're the offers you can't refuse. They're needful things. They give you that one thing, that one advantage or edge, that one asset you need right now, the thing for which you can't wait. The best compacts don't give you a gift with a twist - although that can be terribly entertaining - they give you exactly what you want. Something you can't do without. Something that you won't want to give up, even if it means you could rescind the contract and walk away scot-free.

That's why they succeed. Faustian deals succeed because there is always someone, even in the face of superior wisdom and experience, who would rather do what is Easy and Prompt than that which is Right but Difficult. They continue to succeed because once you have a taste of what you can have if you're willing to compromise on your principles, you'll stay for more.

There's one born every minute, friend.

Science Officer
2014-02-09, 08:48 PM
As for the contract itself, I don't like wordy documents full of loopholes, and subclauses. In my opinion, every demonic contract has the same text:

"I, the undersigned
do agree
to all stipulations
as discussed.
Signed:
X______"

Zaydos
2014-02-09, 08:50 PM
On the subject of why would anyone make deals knowing about the nature of the after life in D&D: Remember it's possible to get early promotion into the higher ranks of devildom.

If I'm evil (and I know it because I ping Evil on Detect Evil) I'm not going to Celestia, I might as well make a deal with Mephistopheles to scratch his back if in exchange he'll scratch mine. I mean I do well enough I might start out as a pit fiend, or even a unique archfiend. The odds of the former are low, almost like winning the lottery, and the later is a pipe dream, but if I'm going to Baator anyway might as well gamble to get a better position. Because Baator might be hell to petitioners and lemure, but once you get into the upper echelons you've got it rather nice, especially for someone who is greedy and hedonistic. Early promotion is extremely rare, but how many people believe that just given the opportunity they'd prove themselves the best of everyone if only they were born into a position of wealth and affluence? Because maybe someone would rather become a fiend of hell then just merge peacefully into another plane.

And this is ignoring people who do it because they're too focused on the here and now, or have a need that makes them willing to sacrifice themselves and make the pact.

ChaoticDitz
2014-02-09, 08:52 PM
I love how players will gloss over obvious details and straight-up ignore plot-relevant information, yet the second it comes to themselves getting a net gain, such as acquiring loot, or in this case cheating a devil out of its deal, they become the most studious bastards alive with degrees in English, Law, and Stubbornness. :smallamused:

NichG
2014-02-09, 08:53 PM
Full knowledge of the consequences is actually one of the big tropes about the Faustian pact. Its not like Faust didn't have the theology to understand the consequences of making a pact, and the appearance of a deal-maker would have been an explicit confirmation of the reality of that theology just as much for Faust as it would be for random D&D mage.

Part of the point of the Faustian Pact is that it is conceptually an examination of how humans value and perceive cost and reward. Its an observation about human nature cloaked in supernatural reference, that people will often take a short-term reward for a long-term cost (as well as stuff about hubris and the thought 'I will be the one to trick the fiends where everyone else failed'). Thats why its significant that its Faust, a learned scholar and person of import, rather than some random commoner. Faust can be believed to think that he is cleverer and wiser than everyone around him, and that he can succeed where everyone else has failed. Kinda like a PC.

Of course in D&D, its actually a lot more muted than it would be in the sorts of theologies that exist in the real world, which I shall not go into detail about. In D&D, going to the evil afterlife doesn't necessarily mean an eternity of suffering. It may mean you get to manipulate, slaughter, and connive your way to the position of some type of arch-fiend. So its even more likely in D&D-land that someone would accept the deal.

There's also the sort of scenario where the victim knows full well how awful a choice they're making, has no delusions or pride or hubris, but still decides that taking the pact is better than the alternative. The paladin who sacrifices his soul to torment to save the souls of his two friends, for example.

Slipperychicken
2014-02-09, 10:05 PM
If I'm evil (and I know it because I ping Evil on Detect Evil) I'm not going to Celestia, I might as well make a deal with Mephistopheles to scratch his back if in exchange he'll scratch mine. I mean I do well enough I might start out as a pit fiend, or even a unique archfiend. The odds of the former are low, almost like winning the lottery, and the later is a pipe dream, but if I'm going to Baator anyway might as well gamble to get a better position.

If fiends grant contracts to tempt mortals into the applicable afterlife (in this case Hell), it seems rather wasteful to grant boons to people who are already evil and not spreading evil to others, so I'd be skeptical that a fiend would do it.

Of course, granting such a boon could be part of an organized word-of-mouth marketing effort. Basically, the idea would be to give a few influential well-connected people (referred to in marketing as "opinion leaders" for their ability to persuade friends and coworkers to use innovations, products, and services) great deals in faustian pacts, perhaps in a very public way, then watch people spread the word ("Did you know? Such-and-such went to the devil, and was able to get rich, become young again, and have his children brought back to life!"). Such a strategy well-executed could potentially bring in loads of mortals looking for their own Faustian boons.

Kane0
2014-02-09, 10:33 PM
At this point I am very concerned about my own characters' deal...


The whole family of my PC has their souls indebted to a particular fiend, so I was damned from birth.
I later made a new deal with the fiend to give him 100 souls and a way onto the plane in return for my own, 'no strings attached'.

It seems we are both getting exactly what we want without any need for twisted words, fine print and/or sneakiness.

Red Fel
2014-02-09, 10:40 PM
If fiends grant contracts to tempt mortals into the applicable afterlife (in this case Hell), it seems rather wasteful to grant boons to people who are already evil and not spreading evil to others, so I'd be skeptical that a fiend would do it.

Of course, granting such a boon could be part of an organized word-of-mouth marketing effort. Basically, the idea would be to give a few influential well-connected people (referred to in marketing as "opinion leaders" for their ability to persuade friends and coworkers to use innovations, products, and services) great deals in faustian pacts, perhaps in a very public way, then watch people spread the word ("Did you know? Such-and-such went to the devil, and was able to get rich, become young again, and have his children brought back to life!"). Such a strategy well-executed could potentially bring in loads of mortals looking for their own Faustian boons.

This latter one is the point. Good Faustian compacts are about immediate gain, but that's a sucker's game - the whole point of the deal is to hornswaggle someone after immediate gain. Great deals are about the long con, a long-term goal.

Here's an example, spoilered for convenience.

So you make a deal for the soul of a corrupt, wicked, already hellbound person. See to it that he's powerful, rich, and capable.

He hires heroes to save him. How cute. That's what heroes are for, right? To save people in distress, who are offering to pay huge amounts of money?

So the heroes come after you, as they are wont to do. And you put up a fight. Make it look authentic. And then you lose. Either they defeat you legitimately, or you let them win. Either way, mission accomplished.

Because once they beat you, you go home. And you wait. But not for long. Because now, the heroes know who you are. They've seen what you can do. They know you deliver on your bargains. And you'll be back. And this time, you'll make the offer to them.

You'll do it at a time when they're in a position of strength, at first. And they'll dismiss it, of course. Why would they want anything from you?

So you'll leave. But you'll reappear. Again and again. Make it clear you're ready to deal.

Because one day, they will be asking for you. And when that happens, you'll have the contract already drafted up.
Alternatively, you could simply offer them a trade - them for the rich guy. He's already hellbound anyway, not that they need to know that, but heroes are notorious for suffering from terminal righteousness.

Raine_Sage
2014-02-09, 10:58 PM
I like it when the demons themselves are generally unconcerned about collecting on the debt, but working towards a larger goal and using the contract as leverage over the PCs.

The warlock in our group for example has his deal with the devil as part of his backstory. Basically he was 15, power hungry, and not very bright. He didn't manage to summon up anything, but a devil noticed his attempts and decided to offer a deal anyway because a soul is a soul and she figured the stupid kid would get himself killed pretty quickly at this rate.

Fast forward several years and now the Warlock is an accomplished adventurer. His name is known around town, he has good will built up with the people, and he has a bunch of equally powerful friends who just managed to take down an impressive threat. And suddenly she's thinking the snotty 15 year old might be good for more than just a quick soul fix, so she contacts him, offers bigger rewards for a bigger investment of his time. And he accepts because while he knows this is probably a bad idea he doesn't want to lose his powers and have to admit to everyone he knows that he only got as far as he did coasting on someone else's power (a devil's no less). Pride is a big thing with this guy.

So now he's got his soul back, and he's stronger than he's ever been. But now she has license to call on him whenever she wants, and ask him to do, and she has capitol P plans. Really it was a worse deal than what he had before, at least her owning his soul was a static condition even if he was auto damned. Now he's no longer auto damned, but given the kinds of favors devils usually ask he's probably going to get there. And now she can twist his arm as hard as she likes.

Malimar
2014-02-09, 11:27 PM
Most devils in my (3.5e) games are completely forthright.

They're willing to make pretty much any deal that's even slightly in their favor, because simply having made a deal with a devil at all is a permanent stain on a mortal's soul, so it's a win/win either way -- most devils are content to play a longer game than most mortals are equipped to play. I treat most devil deals like the first wish Pazuzu gives a paladin: he doesn't mess with it, because just having made the deal at all is plenty nasty.

Once a deal is made, a devil, being a creature of elemental Law, would sooner kiss a deva than go back on the deal. Some of the smarter ones may do the thing where you twist the spirit of the deal while still remaining well within the letter of the deal, but if the deal is enough in their favor, they won't even do that.

Also, devils don't lie, especially not when making deals. The more dickish or dumb among them may withhold information or distort the truth, but that's not common -- the most diabolical devils are proud of being able to benefit from deals with mortals without having to resort to any sort of trickery at all.

(In related news: in my world, the diabolical economy pretty much runs on favors (also souls). Every devil owes some other devils favors and is owed favors by some other devils. So many devils are more than willing to make "owe me a favor" type deals, to be cashed in at suitably inconvenient times.)

I think I generally play devils as a lot more trustworthy and reasonable than most people do; I play up the Lawful aspect just as much as the Evil aspect.

TeChameleon
2014-02-09, 11:44 PM
... of course, no matter how talented the devil, s/he can always run into a character like my somewhat deranged Pyromancer. He's arrogant, short-tempered, rude, kind of crazy, and maybe a little too fond of amassing magical power. At first glance, he'd probably look like a prime candidate for an infernal deal.

That being said, his response to being offered a deal would likely be "I'd love to serve you. Would you prefer roasted or fried?" *FWOOSH*

Connington
2014-02-10, 12:01 AM
Obviously ever deal with a devil comes with a catch, but I prefer to tailor the cost to the PC in question.

A basically Good or Neutral PC should get what he's requested, no tricks or loopholes. The immediate goal that he set himself to solve is accomplished. But the moral cost is extreme, and more importantly the tainted means that were used means that the ultimate result is twisted and wrong. Like putting on the One Ring, Sauron is well and truly defeated, but the victory just raises another dark lord.

If the PC is evil or amoral type who just wants to increase his own power and doesn't have any other buttons to press, he gets screwed over with wording or an unforeseen consequence or whatever else is necessary. Even if the PC's goal is aligned with the devils. That's partly because Evil is petty and self-destructive. It's more because the tone of the campaign should match its protagonists, and I'm willing to bend plausibility to make that happen. Good protagonists get villains who don't exploit their good graces at every opportunity, evil protagonists have no such protections (but they have less restrictions).

Slipperychicken
2014-02-10, 12:29 AM
At this point I am very concerned about my own characters' deal...


The whole family of my PC has their souls indebted to a particular fiend, so I was damned from birth.
I later made a new deal with the fiend to give him 100 souls and a way onto the plane in return for my own, 'no strings attached'.

It seems we are both getting exactly what we want without any need for twisted words, fine print and/or sneakiness.


It seems to me like the 'strings' should be fairly obvious: Even if your soul is "yours", you just used your free will to selfishly deliver 100 souls to a fiend (remember that damning/harming souls is one of the most evil acts in all of DnD), and that would surely damn you to hell, curse or no. Your soul would be black as tar at that point, he just has to wait until you kick the bucket. Or at least that's how I'd play it.

Also, your family is still cursed. So depending on how the curse works, when/if your character has kids, your guy might have to bail the kid(s) out too (which might take way more than 100 souls because good parents like your PC will do anything for their kids). And hope the curse doesn't hit any wives your character might have, either. Heaven help you if the rest of your family learns how you beat the curse. That would be suitably tragic IMO.

ChaoticDitz
2014-02-10, 12:41 AM
Obviously ever deal with a devil comes with a catch, but I prefer to tailor the cost to the PC in question.

A basically Good or Neutral PC should get what he's requested, no tricks or loopholes. The immediate goal that he set himself to solve is accomplished. But the moral cost is extreme, and more importantly the tainted means that were used means that the ultimate result is twisted and wrong. Like putting on the One Ring, Sauron is well and truly defeated, but the victory just raises another dark lord.

If the PC is evil or amoral type who just wants to increase his own power and doesn't have any other buttons to press, he gets screwed over with wording or an unforeseen consequence or whatever else is necessary. Even if the PC's goal is aligned with the devils. That's partly because Evil is petty and self-destructive. It's more because the tone of the campaign should match its protagonists, and I'm willing to bend plausibility to make that happen. Good protagonists get villains who don't exploit their good graces at every opportunity, evil protagonists have no such protections (but they have less restrictions).

I disagree with that last point, but if I ever DM'ed I'd never have any screw-overs, so maybe my point is unreliable. Why? Because I don't want the Evil character screwing it right back and suddenly we're both speaking legalese. If I ever DM, that will be an enforced rule at my table; no going "letter of the law over spirit" on Outsider contracts. No, I don't care if one of them can actually find a legitimate loophole, that defeats the entire point of the contract being made. You want to sign it, both sides get what they ask for, no distortions, no overly-literal word comprehension. If a devil is making a deal with an Evil person at all, they should be getting enough out of it that they don't have to screw the character over too; that just makes the devil's services get a bad rep anyway, which the devil certainly doesn't want.

NichG
2014-02-10, 12:43 AM
A side note on the 100-for-1 deal, there's an interesting bit of weirdness here. You aren't being traded 'I release my claim on your soul'. You're being traded 'I transfer my claim on your soul to you'.

What happens when someone dies while having afterlife-ownership of their own soul? Do they become a stateless spirit, with no passport to any afterlife but the one that they themself could provide (which of course they can't)?

It could be an amusing form of gotcha.

Zaydos
2014-02-10, 01:38 AM
A side note on the 100-for-1 deal, there's an interesting bit of weirdness here. You aren't being traded 'I release my claim on your soul'. You're being traded 'I transfer my claim on your soul to you'.

What happens when someone dies while having afterlife-ownership of their own soul? Do they become a stateless spirit, with no passport to any afterlife but the one that they themself could provide (which of course they can't)?

It could be an amusing form of gotcha.

Sounds like the end of a vestige's legend.

Mrc.
2014-02-10, 02:27 AM
That demon shuld totally have just cut off ~9/10 of the Pallies skull, left the lower jawbone, then said he was being generous by not taking the full share. And then the Pally falls because making deals with fiends is an evil act.

Probably true, but the party had just had lots of stuff they valued wrecked due to their own inaction. The guy playing the paladin was especially downbeat, so I thought this would be a nice thing to throw his way. He also wasn't playing the stupid good paladin type, which is always a plus for me.

Kane0
2014-02-10, 03:21 AM
It seems to me like the 'strings' should be fairly obvious: Even if your soul is "yours", you just used your free will to selfishly deliver 100 souls to a fiend (remember that damning/harming souls is one of the most evil acts in all of DnD), and that would surely damn you to hell, curse or no. Your soul would be black as tar at that point, he just has to wait until you kick the bucket. Or at least that's how I'd play it.

Also, your family is still cursed. So depending on how the curse works, when/if your character has kids, your guy might have to bail the kid(s) out too (which might take way more than 100 souls because good parents like your PC will do anything for their kids). And hope the curse doesn't hit any wives your character might have, either. Heaven help you if the rest of your family learns how you beat the curse. That would be suitably tragic IMO.
Oh yeah, my poor fellow has fallen so far into that pit he's got an honorary title waiting for him.
Family is all gone though, some cultists blow'd up the village. Cursed spawn sounds awesome though.


A side note on the 100-for-1 deal, there's an interesting bit of weirdness here. You aren't being traded 'I release my claim on your soul'. You're being traded 'I transfer my claim on your soul to you'.

What happens when someone dies while having afterlife-ownership of their own soul? Do they become a stateless spirit, with no passport to any afterlife but the one that they themself could provide (which of course they can't)?

It could be an amusing form of gotcha.
Chances are he'd end up blasting away his own little place in hell to call his own...
Edit: Actually chances are there is already a place in hell reserved for people that think they can (or partially do) weasel out of pacts.


Sounds like the end of a vestige's legend.
Even better!

Coidzor
2014-02-10, 03:27 AM
What does "Dark Side Up" mean? Just that the downside is evident before the deal is made rather than, say, being entirely hidden in "fine print" or just fabricated completely out of the blue after the deal was agreed to?


This latter one is the point. Good Faustian compacts are about immediate gain, but that's a sucker's game - the whole point of the deal is to hornswaggle someone after immediate gain. Great deals are about the long con, a long-term goal.

Here's an example, spoilered for convenience.

So you make a deal for the soul of a corrupt, wicked, already hellbound person. See to it that he's powerful, rich, and capable.

He hires heroes to save him. How cute. That's what heroes are for, right? To save people in distress, who are offering to pay huge amounts of money?

So the heroes come after you, as they are wont to do. And you put up a fight. Make it look authentic. And then you lose. Either they defeat you legitimately, or you let them win. Either way, mission accomplished.

Because once they beat you, you go home. And you wait. But not for long. Because now, the heroes know who you are. They've seen what you can do. They know you deliver on your bargains. And you'll be back. And this time, you'll make the offer to them.

You'll do it at a time when they're in a position of strength, at first. And they'll dismiss it, of course. Why would they want anything from you?

So you'll leave. But you'll reappear. Again and again. Make it clear you're ready to deal.

Because one day, they will be asking for you. And when that happens, you'll have the contract already drafted up.
Alternatively, you could simply offer them a trade - them for the rich guy. He's already hellbound anyway, not that they need to know that, but heroes are notorious for suffering from terminal righteousness.

The problem with that is that appearing before the PCs often enough leads to them trying to work out just how to give a fiend permanent Death if they're not total rubes.


At this point I am very concerned about my own characters' deal...


The whole family of my PC has their souls indebted to a particular fiend, so I was damned from birth.
I later made a new deal with the fiend to give him 100 souls and a way onto the plane in return for my own, 'no strings attached'.

It seems we are both getting exactly what we want without any need for twisted words, fine print and/or sneakiness.


He's obviously expecting you to screw him with hundreds of rat and mice souls, which are essentially worthless, and then screwing you in the bargain as well. At the most simple, killing your character in a way that physically rips the soul out of your body after it manifests on the plane completely both eliminates your character's potential to send it back as well as screwing your character and getting your character's soul.

Granted, the metaphysics of having one's soul earmarked for a fiend prior to existing are screwy in and of themselves, so, really, all bets are off solely on that count and what's necessary for it to be the case, so anything and everything could happen and be part of the plan.


Oh yeah, my poor fellow has fallen so far into that pit he's got an honorary title waiting for him.
Family is all gone though, some cultists blow'd up the village. Cursed spawn sounds awesome though.

Eh, those are the kind they love, because the surprise as they unmake a person who thought they'd earned direct conversion to fiend-hood is the most delicious thing. Becoming a fiend and actually retaining any semblance of one's past self is a bugger and a half.


That demon shuld totally have just cut off ~9/10 of the Pallies skull, left the lower jawbone, then said he was being generous by not taking the full share. And then the Pally falls because making deals with fiends is an evil act.

Then your players would remind you that you need to re-read your Merchant of Venice. :smallwink:

Beelzebub1111
2014-02-10, 06:18 AM
This talk about why someone would do it. Eberron fixes this problem. Everybody goes to the same place in the afterlife. Isn't that neat? When everybody dies they go to the same plane of eternal sorrow to wander as a spirit. Really wants you to stay alive and enjoy life, even if it means giving up your body to an AWOL devil from the plane of eternal battle for a bit.

You see, in Eberron, the costs and benefits to both the outsider and the mortal both need to be temporal.

Like I said before, the kind of deal you make is up to what YOU the GM want out of the deal. If you're just doing it because you want to screw your players over later, then you need to rethink why you want this deal in the first place.

I had a monk, who felt he was falling behind the other party members, In character he was being frustrated with his weakness, as it prevented him from becoming master of his dojo. I saw this as an opportunity to tempt him as well as help him keep up with the other party members. An advanced Erinyes (The AWOL devil I previously mentioned) that was possessing a stuffed toy he picked up approached him and offered an exchange, hitching a ride on his body for the benefits that possession provides.

Demon gets what she wants, monk gets what he wants, player is happy because he gets something, DM is happy because his players are happy. Win Win Win Win.

BrokenChord
2014-02-10, 12:39 PM
@Coidzor: I think the title was just a pun on what they ask you in restaurants when you ask for eggs.

@Beelzebub: Oh, really? I was just certain DMs considered this game a race to see how fast you could make the players screw themselves over :smalltongue:

Kane0
2014-02-10, 11:02 PM
He's obviously expecting you to screw him with hundreds of rat and mice souls, which are essentially worthless, and then screwing you in the bargain as well. At the most simple, killing your character in a way that physically rips the soul out of your body after it manifests on the plane completely both eliminates your character's potential to send it back as well as screwing your character and getting your character's soul.

Granted, the metaphysics of having one's soul earmarked for a fiend prior to existing are screwy in and of themselves, so, really, all bets are off solely on that count and what's necessary for it to be the case, so anything and everything could happen and be part of the plan.

Eh, those are the kind they love, because the surprise as they unmake a person who thought they'd earned direct conversion to fiend-hood is the most delicious thing. Becoming a fiend and actually retaining any semblance of one's past self is a bugger and a half.


Not at all, I've been diligently collecting the souls of mostly intelligent, good/neutral mortals. And for each one i get to live another 100 years to boot.
AFAIK, as far as the fiend is concerned the longer he can keep me alive the longer he can keep milking me for a steady stream of souls. And at the end of all this all I get is a badge saying 'congratulations, sucker!' in infernal after landing somewhere in Baator. Supposedly (My DM is not quite as well versed on the planes as I).

The funny thing is I'm totally okay with that because my character doesn't know better, he just wants his soul back. His ingenious master plan at this point is to kill the fiend when he brings it to the prime and release the souls again.
He is not a particularly intelligent individual.

Braininthejar2
2014-02-12, 08:36 AM
Much depends on the fiend who is making the deal.

A Tanaari is likely doing it for fun in the first place - and they don't like the lawyer stuff: so the pact is likely to be of the "give them enough rope..." variery. Using the wording of the pact as an excuse for wanton destruction is also ok.

Unless he is actually forced into service - then he will play along, waiting for the opportunity to force-feed the mortal with his own limbs.

A Yugoloth is a mercenary - he will stay as trustworthy as he needs to keep getting customers, but he is pure evil; he will leave some loopholes so that HE can weasel out of the deal if it turns out beneficial to betray you.

A Baatezu will always keep the word of the deal, obsessively so. But he considers himself an embodiment of what evil should be and proud of it - he will consider it his sacred duty to try to screw you over.

The pact can be as convoluted as a devil makes it (especially if you intend it as a puzzle for the players), but it is much easier to mess with things that aren't actually stated in the contract (like the three evils lying about the soul splice side effects, or a devil hiring adventurers as mercenaries and paying them in gold - just as agreed, but since he is a devil, it goes without saying that the coins are minted in hell and cursed by default; they become addictive when spent, hooking you for another deal.)

Hyena
2014-02-13, 01:30 PM
3. "You know," says the deal-maker, "I'm a reasonable fellow. I like to know with whom I'm dealing. So here's my price. Someday, I'm going to ask you for your name. Calm down, I'm not going to steal it or anything. I just want you to remind me, in a loud, clear voice. When I ask you, say your name, loud and clear." Fast-forward. The party has infiltrated some sort of ceremony, where either (a) a sacrifice will be given, or (b) a vessel will be chosen to receive some terrible, corrupting power. The master of ceremonies then intones, "And who is the one who has been chosen for this task?" Suddenly, the PC hears a voice. "I like to know with whom I'm dealing. Why don't you remind me; what's your name?"
Good Lord, this is brilliant. May I steal this one?

Red Fel
2014-02-13, 03:02 PM
Good Lord, this is brilliant. May I steal this one?

Oh, please do. But once you run it, tell us how it went.

I love it when a plan comes together.

Erik Vale
2014-02-13, 03:15 PM
Oh, please do. But once you run it, tell us how it went.

I love it when a plan comes together.

Is it wrong that after I read that I remembered Mr Rojers saying "When my plan comes together you wont even see it coming, I'll chop you into 4 black dudes and I'll remake cool running."

Actually, I've a feeling his part of that ERB might be part of your theme song.

Vknight
2014-02-18, 01:53 PM
A good deal with a devil/daemon/demon will work differently depending on the evil outsider and there personal tastes of accomplishing evil

Offering warriors power or a sword.
Say you'll save a woman's child.
Sometimes the Devil will force a work around so the group must come to them for aid
Other times they will wait for the party to think they need more power

The essence of a deal is in the.

What does the player want
What does the Devil/Daemon/Demon want
How can you convince/connive or otherwise get the player to go through with it.
What did he miss in the deal & how could it harm him
A deal need not be complex it just needs to create drama

BrokenChord
2014-02-18, 02:01 PM
Maybe this is just because I haven't read the Fiend books or BoVD, but what about a devil contract actually enforces that both sides go through with it? Irresistible mental compulsion? Or what?

AuraTwilight
2014-02-18, 04:30 PM
Depends on the contract. The evil outsider will usually be more than happy to give their side of the bargain without coercion due to being Lawful beings, and if the mortal is given a boon in exchange for their soul, than the Celestial Bureaucracy just figures "Well, the deal's legit so he goes to <Evil Afterlife> When he dies."

If the mortal has to do some evil act for it, then there might be a geas, or he doesn't receive the boon until he does the deed, or what have you.

Eurus
2014-02-18, 04:35 PM
Remember when Qarr mentioned how hard it was to arrange a contract on purpose (Kubota certainly couldn't do it)? :smallbiggrin:

That's the way I like to think of fiends. They're very picky. No devil is going to waste his time popping up in front of some dude who might turn him down, time is money and money in this metaphor is the tormented souls of the damned innocent. Why gamble when there are sure things out there waiting?

There are two ways to arrange a contract; you go to them, or they go to you. If you're going to them, then there's no guarantee they have to give you what you want or even humor you. In fact, pretty much the only way to get your metaphysical collateral approved is if what you want is already evil or beneficial to them in some way (and increasing the amount of evil in the world is usually at least a minor benefit). What they ask for in return is almost an afterthought, but in most of the source material, it tends to be some sort of favor or service.

You want your empire's army to get the power to slaughter and ethnically cleanse its enemies? Sure, that's appropriately horrible, just make sure to fly the flag of Bel and consecrate the site of every battle in the name of hell. Building a massive empire on the backs of devil-worship is an investment that will pay off dividends for decades.

But that's definitely the better option, because if a fiend is coming to you, it's because you've hit rock bottom. You're well and truly desperate and you've exhausted or failed to come up with other options, and they're pretty sure that you will do whatever it takes. This one is more likely to involve a bit of misdirection or trickery; a "too good to be true" deal will draw suspicion, but if they can make you think you know what they're getting out of the deal and actually get much more, that's one for the portfolio right there.

Actually, there's a third option, and that one involves being a high level spellcaster. Because really, if you can break out the Planar Bindings or Gates, you're cutting out the deal bit entirely. You snap your fingers, and a fiend pops up to do whatever you make it do. That's just part of the wizard thing, and it's relatively risk free except for possible alignment erosion for casting so many evil spells unless Hell itself for some reason decides to declare a serious vendetta against you. But that's not really what we're talking about here, so aside from a really niche situation like the Vaarsuvius thing, fiends probably don't bother trying to hook spellcasters. A wizard can solve his own problems. :smallamused:

Raine_Sage
2014-02-18, 06:35 PM
Maybe this is just because I haven't read the Fiend books or BoVD, but what about a devil contract actually enforces that both sides go through with it? Irresistible mental compulsion? Or what?

It can be, depends on what the devil asks for specifically in return which could be "control of your body for ten minutes" or something less concrete.

Really why the contracted person goes through with the contract is situational. My own solution has always been to ask for payment up front.

Necroticplague
2014-02-18, 10:36 PM
I actually like people being able to break their pacts.

WHY!, you might ask? Character development.

As some people pointed out, a pact is usually made in a time of weakness. Its a bad decision made out of desperation. It's the low point of a plot arc. What better way to develop a character than to have them muster up the will to accept the consequences and walk away? Like an alcoholic leaving their last drink behind, it could be a defining moment for that person. The black stain will always be on their soul, but at least now they live free. Of course, the devil can now rescind it's half of the agreement as well, which is what makes the decision so hard to make, and so difficult. If they could just houdini their way out of it, theirs no narrative impact. But having to make the hard choice to lose something, at the gain of their soul? I could think of worse ways to end an arc.

Red Fel
2014-02-18, 11:02 PM
I actually like people being able to break their pacts.

WHY!, you might ask? Character development.

As some people pointed out, a pact is usually made in a time of weakness. Its a bad decision made out of desperation. It's the low point of a plot arc. What better way to develop a character than to have them muster up the will to accept the consequences and walk away? Like an alcoholic leaving their last drink behind, it could be a defining moment for that person. The black stain will always be on their soul, but at least now they live free. Of course, the devil can now rescind it's half of the agreement as well, which is what makes the decision so hard to make, and so difficult. If they could just houdini their way out of it, theirs no narrative impact. But having to make the hard choice to lose something, at the gain of their soul? I could think of worse ways to end an arc.

It would make a heck of a finale in a musical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damn_Yankees).

As an aside, Applegate? One of my favorite Faustians.

BrokenChord
2014-02-18, 11:15 PM
I actually like people being able to break their pacts.

WHY!, you might ask? Character development.

As some people pointed out, a pact is usually made in a time of weakness. Its a bad decision made out of desperation. It's the low point of a plot arc. What better way to develop a character than to have them muster up the will to accept the consequences and walk away? Like an alcoholic leaving their last drink behind, it could be a defining moment for that person. The black stain will always be on their soul, but at least now they live free. Of course, the devil can now rescind it's half of the agreement as well, which is what makes the decision so hard to make, and so difficult. If they could just houdini their way out of it, theirs no narrative impact. But having to make the hard choice to lose something, at the gain of their soul? I could think of worse ways to end an arc.

I see where you're going with this, but it's also rather silly to make it open that the Fighter can make a deal to get the sword he needs to kill, oh, the BBEG's second in command, then be like "mkay, don't really need this anymore, I'd like my soul back." And even if you'd let that fly, there ought to be a way for a Devil to enforce his contract if that option isn't immediately available for some reason, like the deal-signer is still using your bargain or it isn't something that can just be rescinded. For example, Red Fel's "tell me your name" thing or, for possession deals, using it in the middle of a major battle and not just having the deal-greedy Wizard be like "Will save, I don't have to pay anything for having learned those new spells you taught me lolololololol".

Raine_Sage
2014-02-18, 11:47 PM
I see where you're going with this, but it's also rather silly to make it open that the Fighter can make a deal to get the sword he needs to kill, oh, the BBEG's second in command, then be like "mkay, don't really need this anymore, I'd like my soul back." And even if you'd let that fly, there ought to be a way for a Devil to enforce his contract if that option isn't immediately available for some reason, like the deal-signer is still using your bargain or it isn't something that can just be rescinded. For example, Red Fel's "tell me your name" thing or, for possession deals, using it in the middle of a major battle and not just having the deal-greedy Wizard be like "Will save, I don't have to pay anything for having learned those new spells you taught me lolololololol".

Sorry all sales on immortal souls are final. Product may not be exchanged for soul refund. In the event your boon stops working as promised please see our service rep about infernal credit compensation.

Necroticplague
2014-02-19, 06:24 AM
I see where you're going with this, but it's also rather silly to make it open that the Fighter can make a deal to get the sword he needs to kill, oh, the BBEG's second in command, then be like "mkay, don't really need this anymore, I'd like my soul back." And even if you'd let that fly, there ought to be a way for a Devil to enforce his contract if that option isn't immediately available for some reason, like the deal-signer is still using your bargain or it isn't something that can just be rescinded. For example, Red Fel's "tell me your name" thing or, for possession deals, using it in the middle of a major battle and not just having the deal-greedy Wizard be like "Will save, I don't have to pay anything for having learned those new spells you taught me lolololololol".

Except their is still a way they can collect:force. The devils are a bit like illegal loan sharks, in that they REALLY hate people going back on their debt. And no longer being under the contract means that the Pact Primeval (its the "Law" in "Lawful Evil", standard boilerplate) doesn't cover the mortal,thus meaning the devil is now free to do whatever nastiness its black heart desires.Human debt collectors have nothing on their infernal counterpart. And of course, if the demon is strong enough, it could drag you away to hell to face charges. And even if it isn't, it could pull a string or two...

I do agree in concept, though. Rescinding a deal should not be without severe consequence. That's what makes it the hard decision.

And of course all this only applies for things the owner is physically capable of deciding to provide. If it's something like a posession deal, then their's really nothing you can do but ride it out.

Red Fel
2014-02-19, 08:25 AM
Except their is still a way they can collect:force. The devils are a bit like illegal loan sharks, in that they REALLY hate people going back on their debt. And no longer being under the contract means that the Pact Primeval (its the "Law" in "Lawful Evil", standard boilerplate) doesn't cover the mortal,thus meaning the devil is now free to do whatever nastiness its black heart desires.Human debt collectors have nothing on their infernal counterpart. And of course, if the demon is strong enough, it could drag you away to hell to face charges. And even if it isn't, it could pull a string or two...

I do agree in concept, though. Rescinding a deal should not be without severe consequence. That's what makes it the hard decision.

And of course all this only applies for things the owner is physically capable of deciding to provide. If it's something like a posession deal, then their's really nothing you can do but ride it out.

Consider the doctrine of partial performance.

Suppose Hero McShinyPants is the general of a besieged army. The siege is expected to go on for months. They're out of supplies and out of options.

Enter Mr. Applegate (because I mentioned the character earlier and he's awesome). Applegate offers Hero the power to fight off his enemies for one month. At midnight precisely one month later, however, Applegate will take Hero, body and soul, into his cozy corner of the Nine Hells. Hero agrees, with one stipulation - there's an escape clause. At any time before the month is up, he may rescind the deal, lose the power but keep his soul. Applegate reluctantly agrees.

Unfortunately for Applegate (and despite his best behind-the-scenes efforts), the siege is lifted in only three weeks, and Hero's forces are victorious. He calls on Applegate and rescinds the deal.

At this point, Applegate teaches him about "partial performance." Because Hero received the benefit of powers granted by Applegate, Applegate is entitled to the benefit of Hero's soul. Since Hero did not receive the complete benefit, Applegate is not entitled to the complete benefit either - so no dragging Hero off to the Nine Hells. But, assuming Hero ever arrives in Hell on his own, Applegate will be entitled to a piece of him.

Oh, if only Hero had done something Evil and Hell-worthy... Like making a contract with a Devil.

That's how you enforce a contract. Not with force, but with inevitability. You're not going to escape from it; why not enjoy what's left of it?

arcane_asp
2014-03-07, 10:13 AM
I genuinely loved this whole thread, has given me soooo many ideas to mess with my PC's. I dont want to use the term 'teach them a lesson', but if that happens as a result of my action... so much the better :smallbiggrin:

Any advice or comments on the document in spoiler wraps below? Any contribution welcome.

Contract for a player
Contract of Infernal Agreement
Named parties: Quonan Voidrake, Dragonborn Warlock
Captain Avarophet, Demon Captain

This contract is both physically and magically binding, following both the laws of the land and the laws of the infernal abyss.
I, Quonan Voidrake (the undersigned) do hereby enter into this contract of my own free will. I accept the terms below and am aware that breaking the agreed-upon terms will invoke the ‘Breach of Contract Clause’ at the bottom of this document.
• Quonan Voidrake will receive a holy relic of the God Vecna, Master of Secrets, from the Demon Captain Avarophet. This holy relic will increase Quonan Voidrakes ability to target and use arcane spells, and increase the amount of damage inflicted with such spells.
• In addition, Captain Avarophet will gift Quonan Voidrake with the ability to assume a demonic form when his life is in serious danger, the specific details of which are verbally agreed at the signing of this contract.

In return for the above mentioned gifts, Quonan Voidrake promises the following:
• Quonan Voidrake will kneel down for an amount of time not less than 1 minute, and bow his head. This action must be performed at the time and place of Captain Avarophet’s choosing.
• Quonan Voidrake will not reveal his affiliation with the God Vecna, Master of Secrets, to any living persons


Signed:
Breach of Contract
• Should Quonan Voidrake refuse or be unable to kneel and bow his head in the terms referred to above, Quonan Voidrake must then relinquish all of his Warlock Powers to Captain Avarophet.
• Should he reveal his affiliation with the God Vecna, Master of Secrets, to any living persons as mentioned in the terms above, he will relinquish all of the gifts he received as a result of this contract to Captain Avarophet.
In the event of Quonan Voidrake refusing or being unable to comply with the Breach of Contract conditions above, his mortal soul will belong to Captain Avarophet, to be collected and retained in the event of Quonan Voidrakes death.

Red Fel
2014-03-07, 11:09 AM
I genuinely loved this whole thread, has given me soooo many ideas to mess with my PC's. I dont want to use the term 'teach them a lesson', but if that happens as a result of my action... so much the better :smallbiggrin:

Any advice or comments on the document in spoiler wraps below? Any contribution welcome.

First off, never make contracts with a Dragonborn. They've got this irritating tendency to have an LG deity watching them over the shoulder constantly, which kind of gets in the way of matters. On the other hand, always offer to make contracts with Dragonborn - the very idea of a demonic contract is so inherently Evil that the Dragonborn in question is basically guaranteed to fall. (In terms of mechanics - your Dragonborn really, really shouldn't be making this contract; he will lose his template.) Frankly, a demon dealing with a Dragonborn "wins" when the Dragonborn accepts the offer to contract, before a deal has even been made - the Dragonborn falls, and the demon can simply walk away, laughing.

That said, your contract is solid. Very detailed, very specific. However, your contract lacks a proper penalty clause. You're giving this PC an object of incredible power, and attendant abilities to go with it, and if he refuses to perform his part, he simply has to give it all up? It's good, in that the lack of a penalty clause will make him incautious. It's bad, in that there's no reason for him to not break the contract at the last minute. And given his options upon breach, he can simply give back the relic and powers, and still be ahead of the game.

Instead, consider a partial performance-based penalty clause, like the one described above. In essence, the longer the PC keeps and benefits from the powers granted by the contract, the more he should suffer upon its breach. For example, consider this:

Penalty Clause: Should either party be found in breach of this contract, this penalty clause will be invoked.
- Mortal: Should the Mortal be found in breach of this contract, his mortal form shall be wracked and diminished in proportion to the benefit he has received from the benefits of the contract. (Translation: For every X period of time or Y levels gained while under contract, the PC will lose 1 point of ability score, or maybe 1 spell slot, or maybe 1 skill point or 100 xp or something like that. Decide this in advance and hash it out with the player.) Upon his demise, the soul of the Mortal in breach shall belong, legally and wholly, to the Demon. (In other words, there's an immediate loss and a future loss.)
- Demon: Should the Demon be found in breach of this contract, the mortal shall be entitled to X. (Choose a benefit of the contract; it belongs to the PC free of charge now. Since it's evil, it's still a corrupting influence.)
- Additional: In the event of breach by either party, this contract shall be held null and void, with the exception of any provisions adopted in this Penalty Clause. (In other words, the PC loses the benefits of the contract anyway; but he also suffers a punishment.)
With a bilateral penalty clause like this, the player will ignore the risk of his own harm, because he will be convinced that he can trick the demon into breaching the contract. The thing to remember is that the demon's performance is a one-time deal - he simply has to provide powers and an item to the PC, and his job is done. The PC's role is ongoing, creating myriad chances for breach.

And that's what your demon wants. Either the PC fulfills the contract, in which case you get what you want, or the PC is in breach, in which case he is crippled, and you get his soul. Or, if you're really sneaky, you have the Demon deliberately breach - this is a Demon, not a Devil, so some Chaos is involved - in which case the PC now has dark powers at his disposal. And you know what happens then.

Segev
2014-03-07, 11:30 AM
Contract for a player
Contract of Infernal Agreement
Named parties: Quonan Voidrake, Dragonborn Warlock
Captain Avarophet, Demon Captain

This contract is both physically and magically binding, following both the laws of the land and the laws of the infernal abyss.
I, Quonan Voidrake (the undersigned) do hereby enter into this contract of my own free will. I accept the terms below and am aware that breaking the agreed-upon terms will invoke the ‘Breach of Contract Clause’ at the bottom of this document.
• Quonan Voidrake will receive a holy relic of the God Vecna, Master of Secrets, from the Demon Captain Avarophet. This holy relic will increase Quonan Voidrakes ability to target and use arcane spells, and increase the amount of damage inflicted with such spells.
• In addition, Captain Avarophet will gift Quonan Voidrake with the ability to assume a demonic form when his life is in serious danger, the specific details of which are verbally agreed at the signing of this contract.

In return for the above mentioned gifts, Quonan Voidrake promises the following:
• Quonan Voidrake will kneel down for an amount of time not less than 1 minute, and bow his head. This action must be performed at the time and place of Captain Avarophet’s choosing.
• Quonan Voidrake will not reveal his affiliation with the God Vecna, Master of Secrets, to any living persons


Signed:
Breach of Contract
• Should Quonan Voidrake refuse or be unable to kneel and bow his head in the terms referred to above, Quonan Voidrake must then relinquish all of his Warlock Powers to Captain Avarophet.
• Should he reveal his affiliation with the God Vecna, Master of Secrets, to any living persons as mentioned in the terms above, he will relinquish all of the gifts he received as a result of this contract to Captain Avarophet.
In the event of Quonan Voidrake refusing or being unable to comply with the Breach of Contract conditions above, his mortal soul will belong to Captain Avarophet, to be collected and retained in the event of Quonan Voidrakes death.

I know I wouldn't sign that; the two player-character's-payment-conditions can be used to make one force violation of the other. "You must kneel down with head bowed before the prophet of Vecna as he proclaims your obeisance to be a sign of your loyalty to Vecna."

There is also no Breach of Contract clause should Captain Avarophet fail to deliver.

arcane_asp
2014-03-07, 12:24 PM
Wow, thanks for the swift response!

@ Red Fel - Good points all, I will ammend this to reflect a proper penalty clause. Love the idea of him having to not just give back his warlock powers, but also being physically withered too! Of course, the demon captain will have a similar clause too to give the illusion of a fair deal

@Segev - you're not too far off what where I had intended this little contract to go! maybe i should reword this so its not quite so apparent what might be required and sound a bit more innocent.

The player is pretty much in the 'power gamer' category, I fully expect him to sell out his Dragonborn values for slightly higher numbers on his character sheet. Is there any scope for evil or at least 'less morally strict' Dragonborn?

Red Fel
2014-03-07, 01:42 PM
The player is pretty much in the 'power gamer' category, I fully expect him to sell out his Dragonborn values for slightly higher numbers on his character sheet. Is there any scope for evil or at least 'less morally strict' Dragonborn?

Not without refluffing the template directly. RotD is pretty clear on that point - Dragonborn are noble souls explicitly chosen by Bahamut to represent his will and presence. A single Evil act may not doom them, but will merit a visit from a very cross emissary of the deity; seriously Evil action will have the template (painfully) stripped from the character.

If the player hasn't asked to have the template refluffed to be less deity-dependent, then a DM is quite merited in warning him that Bahamut frowns on serious evildoing, before peeling the draconic flesh from his body. (This is actually how it works. I meant it when I said painful.)

Dragonborn don't have to be Exalted, but making deals with infernals is pretty explicitly Evil.

Segev
2014-03-07, 01:52 PM
I would suggest that the contract promise the demonic visage comes with stats comparable to or better than what he'll lose when he loses his dragonborn template; otherwise, it might not be really that sweet of a deal.

I would also be wary of the PC arranging to have somebody else receive the item from the demon and give it to the PC. An intermediary would thus be the one who received it...and the PC never received it from the demon. Now, the demon has breached contract, and the PC has the item. He never received it FROM THE DEMON, however.

I would also make sure, as you write this, that you are careful to determine what, precisely, the goal of the demon is. What is in it for him to screw over the PC and take away the PC's warlock powers? IF the demon's going to try to force a default, make sure the "what he gets" is something other than snidely-whiplash level of evil plot.

Unless this is a very petty demon who just likes screwing people over for kicks - and, if he works for Vecna in a Captain level position, he's bound to be more than that - he should have the default penalty be something that will further his aims. Something that the PC wouldn't agree to willingly, but which seems a reasonable "penalty" to "encourage compliance."

SilverLeaf167
2014-03-08, 08:47 AM
In my setting (or, well... the one I'm building) devils have stopped "spawning" naturally. This means they can only multiply by obtaining people's souls. They could do it by force with some very convoluted and difficult rituals, but that would bring angels down upon them and risk their already limited numbers. Thing is, the normal evil afterlife is Hades; also known as the "most depressing place in all of existence". So, the devils get a lot of new recruits just by going to Hades and offering the tormented souls there the chance to serve as a devil until their destruction, after which they'll reincarnate as mortals. So it's basically an inversion of the typical faustian pact: agree to these terms, spare yourself from an eternity in Hell. The devils benefit, the souls benefit.

Because of this, they don't really need to make deals with living people just for their souls; they're already getting plenty of rank-and-file rookies. Of course, infernal servitude is often included in the deal anyway (hey, it's basically a benefit to people who would otherwise go to Hades). The main point is obtaining mortal pawns to utilize for greater goals, larger in scale. Often this means simply opening a few portals or something, which the devils might not even use too much to avoid wasting their forces. Other times it's something much more convoluted. Getting a lot of souls, especially Good ones which they'd otherwise miss, might be worth it as well.

Some devils work in their own interest, of course, preferring to add a clause that the soul would be their servant specifically.

So basically, how complicated the deal is basically depends on how complicated they need to make it. :smalltongue: If they just want your soul, it's usually quite straight-forward. What you "gain" from the deal is much more likely to be the real price.

arcane_asp
2014-03-10, 05:25 AM
I would also make sure, as you write this, that you are careful to determine what, precisely, the goal of the demon is.


The players Dragonborn character has his back-story linked in to this. Demons captured the soul of his dear friend, as the friend got greedy and made it too easy for them to own him. Now his Dragonborn is dabbling in warlock magics to learn enough to free the friends soul. The demon captain Avarophet sees the Dragonborns desperation as a means to corrupt a Dragonborn and earn status for himself in the eyes of other demons (and maybe some kind of personal wealth, in whatever way demons would measure wealth)


So basically, how complicated the deal is basically depends on how complicated they need to make it.

Just complicated enough to tempt him :smallwink:

Vecna is going to be a bit more of an adversary in some later sessions, having someone working on his behalf from inside the party would be a logical move for him. Plus it would be a great big forbidden secret which should appeal!

Does anyone know if specific Gods make use of specific demons to conduct their evil plans? A generic demon could no doubt appear in a friendly disguise, but if it had to take its true form at some point would be good to know what sort of monster stats to use.

Segev
2014-03-10, 08:21 AM
If his backstory is that his friend was tricked by demons in just this way, and the demon's goal is to tempt and corrupt rather than just to "gotcha," you should probably think very hard about the deal being offered. The catches and tricks shouldn't be things that allow the demon to say "and now you're screwed because I'm so clever muhuhahaha," but instead should be quirks that oddly limit his power if he tries to do things the hard-but-nicer way...and things which look like precisely the kind of character optimization loopholes that boards such as this are famous for, but which require malign acts to implement.

Better still if they look like some way the Dragonborn has found a catch to put one over on the demon, but in enforcing the catch, he has to do something of questionable virtue. For instance, if he must sacrifice somebody else's secret for each Warlock invocation he learns, he has to get the trust of his allies or his enemies, or he has to spy on them to obtain a secret that only he and they know to give to Vecna. Obviously not-nice, but something probably workable. The loophole might be that, in the wording, he can actually get more invocations than the class progression allows by finding and sacrificing more secrets. Some legalese may be necessary to define "secret" properly, but if he "abuses" this, he's becoming a gossip and a spy who gathers everybody's private details and shares them with the god of secrets.

Then it becomes a game for Araphet to put up a façade of outrage that he is being tricked like this, all the while slipping ways to get more secrets in front of the Dragonborn with increasingly questionably moral deeds required to obtain them.

arcane_asp
2014-03-11, 12:40 PM
it becomes a game for Araphet to put up a façade of outrage that he is being tricked like this, all the while slipping ways to get more secrets in front of the Dragonborn with increasingly questionably moral deeds required to obtain them.

Segev, you are a master of deviousness. Awesome :smallcool:

Segev
2014-03-12, 11:21 AM
Segev, you are a master of deviousness. Awesome :smallcool:

Glad to help!

I've seen enough examples of archetypes that are meant to have this horrible "hunger" or "temptation" or the like, and which provide no mechanical incentive for a gamist player (whether a PC-controller or the GM) to actually act on it. This has led me to devising ways of making it tempting to do things that are of socially malignant value to obtain greater power mechanically so as to tempt the players.

It does tend to let pure optimizers treat the world as something there for them to exploit, but really, isn't that precisely what you want your "evil temptations" to do? Game balance can still be an issue if you aren't prepared to have enemies of appropriate threat level oppose them, though.

However, "more invocations" is nifty and potentially over-versatile, but I doubt a character who had every invocation of the levels he has access to would truly be broken compared to moderately-optimized Tier 2 classes.