[3.P] Making Money In A World Full Of Gods

[GraySeaJones]

The group I am playing in has recently reached third level without making a single gold coin. In fact, it seems that we have been losing money since we started. The reason for this stems from the fact that seemingly everyone in the world is at an arbitrarily high level. As such, we are significantly behind in WBL, and the problem will probably only get worse if this keeps up.

As examples, the following things happened in a couple sessions:

We were attacked by a 20th-level Sorcerer whose tower my Ninja woke up in,
After being ejected from the tower, we landed in a boat full of 15th-level sailors who were immune to negotiation (by virtue of low intelligence) and were taken prisoner,
While we avoided them from taking our gear, after being trapped in their ship, we were specifically targeted by wave after wave of sea creatures (some larger than the merchant ship), with quick thinking and GM fiat barely keeping us alive,
Barely survived our room being flooded (twice), being boarded into a room filled with burning oil, nearly being swallowed by a Colossal whale, and being stranded in the middle of the ocean, and
We now have bounties on our heads from supposedly destroying a merchant ship.


Let me explain a couple of these further.

We were plopped onto a merchant ship where we were surrounded and taken prisoner. As we were transported, the GM gave us lots of opportunities to escape the merchant ship (see: maybe-sahaguin, hostile aquatic life). We did a lot of thinking about it, too. The stumbling blocks were always that A) most of the party can't swim, B) a lifeboat would still get us killed by aquatic life, C) we can't find much information because we are always in combat, D) the sailors are basically immune to damage and spells because they are so many levels above us, and E) the sailors are able to rebuild their ship from scratch, making intimidation by means of setting fire to their gunpowder supply worthless.

We tried everything in our power to get a druid (who cannot swim) close enough to cast Charm Animal on a hostile Colossal whale into carrying us away. It was our best and only shot at escaping; using rope, a dolphin, and a Samurai acting as a lifeguard, finally got the druid close enough. Of course, a Colossal whale has saves which are sky-high - and so, of course, the it makes its save. The whale tried to eat us, then stranded us in the middle of the ocean. We made it back to land by GM fiat.

The only shops we have come across after reaching civilization has every magical item you can imagine, for exorbitant prices. Of course, they can't be robbed because they can track down any thief to the end of the earth. (Not that our party of Good characters would rob a store anyhow.)

There's a quote I've heard somewhere, "The weak can speak and only hope to be heard, but the powerful have the freedom to give mercy or withhold it." I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are completely outclassed, always struggling to react, and usually at someone's mercy. That, and that we don't have any gear left. Surviving these horrors gets us experience but not loot, sadly.

(As an aside, the only time we managed to accomplish something - pin down an invisible halfling who may or may not have kidnapped a party member - it magically replaced itself with an invisible block of wood. Go figure.)



Now that we have made it to civilization after a long trip, I have taken it upon myself to earn some money. I am currently playing as a 3rd-level, middle-aged, drunken and superstitious Ninja who had been exiled from a far away clan. I try to place roleplaying over mechanics, and border on Neutral Good-True Neutral, striving to defend the innocent through dirty deeds. The character is kind-hearted, and would not rob or kill anyone who is not actively out to harm others.

My current plan is to try and take a bounty or two such that we can make back some of our WBL (that's what Ninjas are good at). Since it's exceedingly rare to get downtime, it's my only chance to make some money. My fear, though, is that whatever bounty my character takes will only lead us to a high-level spellcaster that will slaughter us (or at the very least cast Geas and force us to do its bidding). It also means that if we survive, we get experience but not gold, making the problem worse.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, does anyone here have ideas for making money as a Ninja? Anything I could ask my DM about at all? Any scheme that takes a long time to pull off could easily get us back into danger, since trouble follows our party from place to place.

As a reference, the party consists of: A middle-aged Ninja (the sneak and glass cannon), a lordless Samurai (the meatshield), a Druid whose player doesn't understand spells (the... utility spellcaster, on a good day), a responsible human Alchemist (the blaster), and a dumb-as-a-doorknob kitsune Oracle (the face).

Also, if my Ninja dies, what sort of class/build should I play as next to be able to act rather than react? Ninjas, sadly, are not very effective in the campaign: assassinations probably won't work, since any high-level character can shrug off a weak coup-de-grace, and the world doesn't have Wands that can be UMD'ed. (If we want to use them, we need to make them ourselves.)

With all that said, I don't dislike our DM. His style is quite different from mine (I like E6, where things aren't quite as ridiculous), but the fact that everything is so powerful makes us have to think. Hard. On a time limit. It's the most thought I've put into a game in a long time. The problem is more that we have to put in all this thought just to break even, which I'm trying to remedy.

TL;DR: We are horribly outclassed by everyone we've met. They are hostile to us, we barely escape in all cases, and we get experience but never loot. I want to make money as a Neutral Good Ninja. How should I go about this without getting killed?

Thanks for your help, and I'm sorry for making this so darned long.

[Saidoro]

So is the setting FR or some homebrew world that caricatures some of the worst parts of FR?
It doesn't really matter for my response, just curious.

The best way to make money in a difficult situation is the same as the best way to do anything else in a difficult situation: by being a spellcaster. Sadly, that's not a major option given your builds and level; a wizard or cleric could sell everburning torches or something, either would be a good choice if you die and come back. Ninjas don't seem to have much in the way of class features that are useful to your situation, you'll basically be limited to stealing things or getting creative to exploit DM fiat in your favor. Or you could try heading out into the wilds and slaughtering primitive tribal cultures and taking their stuff, I hear that's popular. Or just talking to your DM, that's usually the best solution even if you do like most aspects of their style.

[SPoilaaja]

Do everything in your bidding not to die, but if you're playing in a game where the average encounter you meet is 15+, just let your character die or be saved by a GM-fiat.

And as to how to make money: Roll profession, the only surefire way not to get killed captured by creatures 5 times your level and immune to everything you can do.

[GraySeaJones]

So is the setting FR or some homebrew world that caricatures some of the worst parts of FR?

I'm not familiar with Forgotten Realms, but I know the DM borrows from 1st and 2nd edition D&D modules. From what I know about the setting we're in - we don't know too much about it - it's mostly a set of city-states ruled by insane rulers, each city with its own gimmick.

For example, one city is covered in mist that makes people lose track of time (my character spent ten years in the mist), and another city is based entirely around the aforementioned Omnimart.


The best way to make money in a difficult situation is the same as the best way to do anything else in a difficult situation: by being a spellcaster. [...] Or you could try heading out into the wilds and slaughtering primitive tribal cultures and taking their stuff, I hear that's popular.

I was afraid of that answer. I've been trying to break my optimization habits and play a non-spellcaster.

As an aside: The way things are going, I'd be surprised if the primitive tribes don't have a 20th-level Barbarian leader. I mean, if they don't, what keeps a random adventurer from showing up and taking their stuff?


Do everything in your bidding not to die, but if you're playing in a game where the average encounter you meet is 15+, just let your character die or be saved by a GM-fiat.

...Hmm. That's kind of a downer. I would like to be as effective as possible, given the circumstance. Well, when we die we do get our WBL in loot, so there's that, I guess...


And as to how to make money: Roll profession, the only surefire way not to get killed captured by creatures 5 times your level and immune to everything you can do.

Thank you for your advice.

As I said, trouble seems to find us, and our DM doesn't like to give us downtime - he likes games that are fast-paced. I'm certain that he's going to spring something on us if we spend a month in town, and it will probably relate to the bounties on our heads.

On the other hand, our adventurers may want to consider leaving this whole "discover the truth about dimensional portals" to 20th-level Sorcerers and do something that won't get them killed... I... don't think the DM would be happy with that, but I'll give it a try.

Assuming the Ninja had maximum ranks in Profession, which he doesn't... that would be a +10 modifier. That's an average of 10 gp/week. It's not very much given 3rd-level WBL, but it's probably worth not dying over. The party alchemist is opening up shop, so I could try to help him using Craft (poisons).

[SPoilaaja]

The Alchemy shop seems like a reasonable solution to break through through the profession cap.

I really see no other choices, since as you described: An average encounter for you is around 15 ECL creatures or higher, so bounty hunting is not an option and wandering off to random directions finding dungeons probably the same. And given that the world is full of characters like that, there is no reason for you to investigate portals, you seem like commoners compared to the rest of the world.


So: I'd address the GM out of game and ask what is his intention with all this.

[Gavinfoxx]

Your problem is that you have a really, really, really, really, really bad GM who has no idea how to run a game of 3.5e. Talk to the GM, and point out the problems with the game (seriously, the way he is running it is NOT fun and makes NO SENSE).

[Arbane]

...Hmm. That's kind of a downer. I would like to be as effective as possible, given the circumstance. Well, when we die we do get our WBL in loot, so there's that, I guess...

I remember a story a while back about a guy playing with a stingy killer GM who managed to get his team up to WBL by having his new characters get killed repeatedly.



On the other hand, our adventurers may want to consider leaving this whole "discover the truth about dimensional portals" to 20th-level Sorcerers and do something that won't get them killed... I... don't think the DM would be happy with that, but I'll give it a try.


If the GM is going to cram the world full of high-level characters, it's their responsibility to explain why a bunch of snivelling noob PCs are the ones who need to deal with the major threats.



So: I'd address the GM out of game and ask what is his intention with all this.


Your problem is that you have a really, really, really, really, really bad GM who has no idea how to run a game of 3.5e. Talk to the GM, and point out the problems with the game (seriously, the way he is running it is NOT fun and makes NO SENSE).

...and what these guys said.

[GraySeaJones]

If the GM is going to cram the world full of high-level characters, it's their responsibility to explain why a bunch of snivelling noob PCs are the ones who need to deal with the major threats.

Apathy by everyone that matters, I guess? Everyone we have met seems insane to a degree, at the very least unconcerned with our plight. For example, an Omnimart employee has no reason to believe a group of noobs about reality falling apart. Even if, for example, they could potentially fix it given the immense resources that they have.

As another example, the sailors didn't even believe that magic existed, even after we showed them. That sort of disbelief is hard to maintain in a world with 20th-level casters.


So: I'd address the GM out of game and ask what is his intention with all this.


Your problem is that you have a really, really, really, really, really bad GM who has no idea how to run a game of 3.5e. Talk to the GM, and point out the problems with the game (seriously, the way he is running it is NOT fun and makes NO SENSE).

I appreciate the advice.

I would disagree that it's as bad as you say - we, the players, have had fun, after all - but the more I think about it seriously, the more it is starting to feel like an elaborate power fantasy.

I've sent my DM an email about it, following your advice, asking what is up with the world, why we should bother adventuring when other people are far better equipped at dealing with the problems it faces, and whether we could fight things like wights or trolls rather than the BBEG himself at level 3.

The last thing I want to do is cause hard feelings, since I otherwise like the DM.

Thank you for your help. I will let you guys know how he responds, and maybe ask for help again if it doesn't change anything.



You know, if things don't change, maybe my best bet is to play a high-OP Cleric or Wizard. If I can make scrolls, or at least utilize buffs and things that don't allow saves, I could try to evade most deadly encounters if need be. After all, casters are affected least by a loss of WBL...

On the other hand, that brings us back to the barbaric world of Gary Gygax and the "DM versus Player" mentality.

[Firechanter]

If things don't change, significantly, your best bet is to leave the game. Period.

[GraySeaJones]

If things don't change, significantly, your best bet is to leave the game. Period.

In regards to the email I sent: The DM has been cooperative, and has agreed to make changes. According to him, he's too used to the "DM versus player" mindset, which he will try to get out of.

He's asked me to give him feedback next week when we play, and he says that will start trying to balance encounters such that we could feasibly end up with a net gain of resources.

So far, anyway, it looks like everything will work out fine.

[Gavinfoxx]

He's asked me to give him feedback next week when we play, and he says that will start trying to balance encounters such that we could feasibly end up with a net gain of resources.

Feasibly get a net gain isn't how the game is set up. Show him the Wealth By Level table and mention that the game is balanced on the assumption that characters have that much gold in useful, relevant gear, simply to hit par.