quick simple Soulknife fix

[Lans]

Scrap the mindblade enhancement progression and add A soulknife can assign enhancements and abilities to his mind blade up to the value of the expected WBL.

Thoughts? I'm worried it might be a little overpowered

[SPoilaaja]

I'd rather use something like Ancestral Relic as the starting point.

[Seerow]

I'm curious. What does a 20th level Soulknife spend 760,000gp on when he can enhance only his weapon?

I'm sure with flat gold cost enhancements and unique weapons, you can get that up as high as 400,000. But I don't see getting all of it.



And even so, you're going to end up with an underpowered class. "Soulknife gets a free weapon" makes it so the Soulknife can spend all of his money on other gear already. That other gear is the stuff people generally refer to when they talk about money being used to keep up. If the Soulknife with a free weapon and their WBL of other gear isn't good enough; then the Soulknife with an even bigger weapon and their WBL of other gear still isn't going to be enough.

[SPoilaaja]

Seerow is correct. The class needs way more than just a bigger weapon. Full bab, maybe the ancestral weapon-like progression, with some free gold thrown into it depending on your level and rudimentary psion manifesting.

[Lans]

I'm curious. What does a 20th level Soulknife spend 760,000gp on when he can enhance only his weapon?

I'm sure with flat gold cost enhancements and unique weapons, you can get that up as high as 400,000. But I don't see getting all of it.

Lets see, you can add strength and dex enhancements to weapons 36k, flight 16k , inititiative is 20k, displacement is a 100k, bonus on reflex saves 16k, vanishing is 8k, slow burst 5k, Shadow Strike 5k, prismatic burst 30k, the various intelligent item enhancements can add about 350, that's pretty close and adds defensive, mobility, utility and offensive options. I'm not concerned about epic, and I think you can add multiple uses of Shadow strike and vanishing by paying the costs again. If need be an ability to add psuedo augment crystals can be done to use up some of the ability




And even so, you're going to end up with an underpowered class. "Soulknife gets a free weapon" makes it so the Soulknife can spend all of his money on other gear already. That other gear is the stuff people generally refer to when they talk about money being used to keep up. If the Soulknife with a free weapon and their WBL of other gear isn't good enough; then the Soulknife with an even bigger weapon and their WBL of other gear still isn't going to be enough.


That doesn't follow, the mindblade as is, only about 1/2 of WBL at the levels it gets an increase, and is only enhancements and a small list of, often subpar special abilities. This is steady by level and has many abilities that most classes don't get, like flight, dimension door, action economy


Seerow is correct. The class needs way more than just a bigger weapon. Full bab, maybe the ancestral weapon-like progression, with some free gold thrown into it depending on your level and rudimentary psion manifesting.
I would rather not give it a full base attack bonus, I don't see it as proficient at fighting with out his weapon. I would sooner expand on it getting the weapon focus feats by finishing off with the rest of the weapon supremacy line. Looses out on last iterative, +3 to hit, and gains 6 damage, and weapon supremacy benefits.

Why ancesteral relic?

Edit-If it matters my target balance range is mid tier 4 to low tier 2 so if its not as good as warblade its not a big deal.

[Just to Browse]

The free money only for your weapon is not going to buff the soulknife a tier, but it's a good quality of life improvement, bringing the soulknife from useless to kind of worthwhile.

[Vanitas]

Just use Pathfinder Soulknife.

[SPoilaaja]

Why ancesteral relic?

Because I personally find the feat fascinating, but a bit too limiting. Granting it to non-good alignment, increasing the allowed gold cap and throwing in a few bucks of free gold for it. Ancestral relic is a nice sink for "crap" loot, since you can use it to enchant items at the full value, instead of first selling your loot for half price and then buying or going to enchanters for what you want.

[Feint's End]

Just use Pathfinder Soulknife.

Vanitas got it right (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife). I mean you could try fixing a deeply broken class OR you could look at the infinitely better PF Soulknife created by the geniuses of DSP. Very solid t4 with some options to argueably push it to low t3 (Gifted Blade archetype). Also as opposed to the 3.5 counterpart it actually is good at what it is supposed to do (namely creating a flexible and powerful weapon with her mind and do crazy things with it).

[Lans]

I'm not liking the base pathfinder soulknife, it has some good things, but I'm against throwing full base attack bonus on classes, and most of the blade skills are meh, Some of them are nice, and Ill crib them for my fix that I'm tossing around in my head

[Gavinfoxx]

...Uh? The soulknife is a class whose primary schtick is to run up to people and hit them with a weapon? Why WOULDN'T it have full BAB?

[Seerow]

I don't like the PF Soulknife either, but that's mostly because I think it didn't go far enough. Psychic Strike is still all but useless, and more than half of your class progression is either the weapon or the useless psychic strike. They made it better by adding blade skills and bumping up the BAB, but it was far too cautious.

[Nihilarian]

Try this, (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/soulknife) and let prc's that improve Manifester Level instead count towards mind blade progression.

However, it's better just to use the PF version.

Edit: In Dark Sun, Soulknife gets compressed into a PrC, which could also work pretty well.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The easiest way to fix the soulknife is to take the psychic warrior and trade its first-level bonus feat for the basic mindblade progression. (Mindblade, Shape Mind Blade, and the various +X and mind blade enhancements). Turn Throw Mind Blade and Bladewind into feats, if you so desire.

[JusticeZero]

Use the PF one, and use the Gifted Blade instead. *shrugs* Should pretty much fix it.

[Zweisteine]

Say they get full BAB when wielding their mind blade.

[Draz74]

I'm not liking the base pathfinder soulknife, it has some good things, but I'm against throwing full base attack bonus on classes,

I'm a stickler for full BAB too; I don't like Monk or PsyWar fixes that give them full BAB. But in the Soulknife's case, it doesn't really bother me. Not sure if that's because of flavor or because they really need the help, though.

[Vanitas]

In Dark Sun, Soulknife gets compressed into a PrC, which could also work pretty well.
That's because it's the 3.0 Soulknife, which was always a prestige class.

[Nihilarian]

That's because it's the 3.0 Soulknife, which was always a prestige class.I've never played 3.0. I was thinking of the version in this PDF (http://athas.org/products/prc1), which is 3.5. As far as I can tell it's approved by WoTC, so it's about as official as you're gonna get for 3.5 Dark Sun.

[Zaq]

Say they get full BAB when wielding their mind blade.

Eh, give 'em full BAB all the time. Otherwise you get weird cases where you qualify for feats/PrCs/etc. when using your mind blade, but not when you're, um, not. That's unnecessarily headache-inducing. The best-case scenario is that they just happen to have their mind blade out all the time, or at least whenever it matters, at which point they might as well just have full BAB.

Personally, I think if a Soulknife gets it in their head to attack with something other than their one defining feature, they're punishing themselves enough without needing to recalculate their BAB and total to-hit.

[Zweisteine]

Eh, give 'em full BAB all the time. Otherwise [confusing stuff happens].
I agree, but, the asker said this, so I came up with something to get around it.

I would rather not give it a full base attack bonus, I don't see it as proficient at fighting with out his weapon.

For prerequisite-confusing stuff, anything he qualifies for only with the full BAB, he can only use with his mind blade. For example, a level one soulknife with weapon finesse would be able to apply his dexterity bonus to his mind blade's attacks, but not any other attacks he makes. When he reaches level two, his standard base attack bonus would reach +1, and he could use weapon finesse with any applicable weapon.

[Divide by Zero]

Even with full BAB, a soulknife wouldn't get nearly as much benefit out of physical weapons as their mindblade, unless they sunk a bunch of their WBL into a weapon that they'll only ever use in obscure cases where their mind blade isn't useful. I really don't think that's worth adding in needlessly complicated rules.

[Vanitas]

I've never played 3.0. I was thinking of the version in this PDF (http://athas.org/products/prc1), which is 3.5. As far as I can tell it's approved by WoTC, so it's about as official as you're gonna get for 3.5 Dark Sun.

It's actually quite different from the 3.0 Soulknife. Easier requirements, full base attack bonus, d10 HD instead of d6, no sneak attack, no powers. It's a shame they get few skill points, though. I guess I'd rather use the 3.0 version.

[Kennisiou]

Soul knife wants stealth abilities, powers, and power points. His disappearing weapon makes him a nice stealth sneak assassin, but he lacks anything else good for that sort of role. He really doesn't have anything that makes him a great melee frontliner either. His class features really don't even compare very favorably to - say - a fighter.

[Lans]

...Uh? The soulknife is a class whose primary schtick is to run up to people and hit them with a weapon? Why WOULDN'T it have full BAB?

Mostly so I can balance for a more awesomer sword.

I figure damage up 2 sizes, up crit range by 1 or 2, and modifier by 1, option for reach, go epic with the weapon, maybe have it ignore DR, far shot, give a bonus to jump, climb, swimming, the weapon supremacy line, power attack, enhanced two weapon fighting, weapon finesse, a mind shield+sword option, mind daggers, no penalty for having multiple weapons

[Nihilarian]

Mostly so I can balance for a more awesomer sword.you aren't getting an awesomer sword. Base 3.5 Soulknife has a strictly inferior sword to the fighter, your OP gets them the same sword. In either case, the only benefit is getting it for free.

I'm not entirely sure what the second half of your post is about. Qualities you want to give your soulknife/mind blade? Half of them appear on the PF soulknife (because you cribbed them from it) and it's still considered a bit weak. It's also far simpler.

Alternatively, if you aren't dead set on the soulknife, the Soulbound Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) ACF summons a magic weapon to fight with.

[Lans]

you aren't getting an awesomer sword. Base 3.5 Soulknife has a strictly inferior sword to the fighter, your OP gets them the same sword. In either case, the only benefit is getting it for free.
/QUOTE]

My original fix was better than the sword a fighter would get. Starts as magic, gets a +1 enhancement at 3rd, when its doubtful a fighter would have a magic weapon, they might be equal at 4th

[QUOTE]I'm not entirely sure what the second half of your post is about. Qualities you want to give your soulknife/mind blade? Half of them appear on the PF soulknife (because you cribbed them from it) and it's still considered a bit weak. It's also far simpler.

Only the expanded critical, and mind daggers were cribbed from pathfinders. The reach was coincidental.

Its now clear to me that Pathfinders is a better place to start when it comes to an attempt at a soulknife fix. I don't think it goes far enough though

[Feint's End]

[QUOTE=Nihilarian;17061894]Its now clear to me that Pathfinders is a better place to start when it comes to an attempt at a soulknife fix. I don't think it goes far enough though

Well the Pathfinder Soulknife does what it is supposed to do really well. Being a melee badass. It is solid t4 and I think I am with Psyren on this one if I say it is fully recommendable to everyone who likes the flavour. It can argueably reach t3 with Gifted Blade, Expanded Knowledge and the right selection of blade skills and powers.

[Lans]

[QUOTE=Lans;17069217]

Well the Pathfinder Soulknife does what it is supposed to do really well. Being a melee badass. It is solid t4 and I think I am with Psyren on this one if I say it is fully recommendable to everyone who likes the flavour. It can argueably reach t3 with Gifted Blade, Expanded Knowledge and the right selection of blade skills and powers.

Its not quite what I wanted with the class, I kind of wanted more like Kuwabara where its sword is its majore source of fighting power, and its super awesome not on par. Ill have to go over the ACFs to see if any of those fit

[Person_Man]

I have an Incarnum based fix, the War Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441). It's basically a Jedi class, which is what most people want to play when they think of the Soulknife. It also fixes the Soulborn, which has a lot of fun/useful soulmelds and chakra binds to choose from, but completely borked mechanics.

Incarnum is anything but simple though. If you wanted a strait forward fix, I would just rewrite the signiture class ability to be as useful and flexible as possible. Using my War Soul's Soul weapon as a basis, it would be something like this:


Soul Weapon: As a free action during your turn, you may shape a weapon of your choice out psychic energy. This includes all melee weapons and ranged weapons (simple, martial, and exotic weapons) but not ammunition. Shaping a weapon does not grant the Soulknife proficiency with it. This weapon has all of the normal properties and acts exactly like a mundane weapon or shield of the same type, with the following benefits and restrictions.

All weapons gain an Enhancement bonus to hit and damage equal to 1/4 the Soulknife's class level, rounded up, with a maximum bonus of +5.

Beginning at 4rd level, after 10 minutes of uninterrupted concentration, you may choose to enchant your soul weapons. The enchantments that you select for your soul weapons may have a total enhancement bonus equal to 1/4 the Soulknife's class level, rounded up, with a maximum bonus of +5. From that point forward, all soul weapons created gain that enchantment, until the Soulknife chooses to take 10 minutes of uninterrupted concentration in order to change them.

Beginning at 16th level (when the Soulknife has a +5 soul weapon with +5 worth of enchantments), the Soulknife may choose Epic level enchantments for their soul weapon. At 20th level, the soul weapon automatically bypasses all forms of damage reduction and regeneration, including DR/Epic. In addition, at 20th level cannot be suppressed or dispelled by any non-Epic level effect, such as Dispel Magic or an Antimagic Field.

All enchantments must be from sources approved by your DM. Only enchantments which are legal take effect. For example, the Keen property would not take effect on ranged weapons or blunt weapons, because Keen is not a legal enchantment for those weapons.

In addition, bonuses gained from multiple soul weapons never stack, even if they otherwise would. For example, while two soul weapons with the Flaming property would grant a bonus of 1d6 fire damage to each weapon, multiple Defending weapons would only grant an AC bonus once.

You may create any number of soul weapons during your turn (subject to reasonable limits on free actions set by your DM). Thus you could create two soul weapons and use Two Weapon Fighting, or multiple weapons with Multi-Weapon Fighting. You could also use it to make a full attack with a ranged weapons or thrown weapons. And each soul weapon created would gain the full benefits of it's Enhancement bonus and being enchanted.

If you lose physical contact with a soul weapon (for example if you drop it, if it is disarmed, or if you throw or shoot it) then it dissipates at the end of the round. In addition, if you lose consciousness for any reason, all soul weapons dissipate immediately. Any other creature attempting to use a soul weapon gains none of it special benefits (but can wield it as a normal weapon of its kind until it dissipates).


The class would still be Tier 4 without some major rewrites - in particular, it would need meaningful access to some sort of subsystem (psionics, incarnum, vestiges, magic, maneuvers, etc). But the above is a step in the right direction.

[RedMage125]

I've never played 3.0. I was thinking of the version in this PDF (http://athas.org/products/prc1), which is 3.5. As far as I can tell it's approved by WoTC, so it's about as official as you're gonna get for 3.5 Dark Sun.

No, during the last few years of Dragon/Dungeon being in print, the content was sanctioned as 100% official by WotC.

And Dragon/Dungeon magazine did a 3.5 update to Dark Sun. It's kind of cool. They tried to fit Elan and Maenads into the setting, though, which was weird. And still had a few throwbacks to the old 2e thing of no characters below level 3. Athasian humans, dwarves and elves are not like PHB ones. They have different stat adjustemnts (even humans), and Level adjustments. Starting at higher level makes it a little better for those players who wanted to be half-giants or thri-kreen, I guess.

[Lans]

The class would still be Tier 4 without some major rewrites - in particular, it would need meaningful access to some sort of subsystem (psionics, incarnum, vestiges, magic, maneuvers, etc). But the aboves is a step in the right direction.

I'm actually fine with a class being tier 4. My target balance range is 3 +-1

I like your warsoul, though the bonus feats are a bit weird