Is there a save-or-die earlier than 9th level, plus some fire questions.

[RPGaddict28]

First off, is there a save-or-die spell earlier than Flesh to Ice? Secondly, what kind of damage should a grease(based off the spell) fire do, and is there a way to add the fire descriptor to spells?

[eggynack]

First off, is there a save-or-die spell earlier than Flesh to Ice?
Touch of the juiblex (BoVD, 107) can pull it off if you're willing to wait a few rounds, and that's a 3rd level spell. Despite the corrupt descriptor, a good wizard can technically cast the thing, so there's no real restriction along those lines. An alignment restricted caster needs to be at least neutral though.

What kind of damage should a grease(based off the spell) fire do?
Mundane fire deals 1d6 damage a round, so probably that.

Is there a way to add the fire descriptor to spells?
Energy substitution (CArc, 79) is probably the best way. If you actually awnt to add the descriptor, instead of doing a replacement, then you're probably looking for something like energy admixture (CArc, 78).

[Drachasor]

Sleep and Color Spray are effectively SoDs. They have Hit Die limits, but on a failed save the targets are effectively dead (especially in a group setup).

[eggynack]

Sleep and Color Spray are effectively SoDs. They have Hit Die limits, but on a failed save the targets are effectively dead (especially in a group setup).
More like SoL's, or maybe even SoS's. I mean, if the category is open to SoL's, then getting one before level nine isn't all that difficult. You toss out something as simple as a charm monster, and there ya go, SoL. Getting the target actually dead takes a higher leveled spell.

[Fax Celestis]

Why does everyone forget about phantasmal killer? 3rd level sod, right there in core.

[Drachasor]

Why does everyone forget about phantasmal killer? 3rd level sod, right there in core.

Well, if we are going to be very technical about everything, PK is hmm, SoSoD (Save or Save or Die). (Edit: And 4th level, but I got distracted)

[eggynack]

Why does everyone forget about phantasmal killer? 3rd level sod, right there in core.
4th level, apparently. I like touch of the juiblex more, even with the delay. Double saves means sad times for all. It definitely fits the criteria though.

[Yawgmoth]

Why does everyone forget about phantasmal killer? 3rd level sod, right there in core. Because it is bad and you should feel bad for suggesting it. The number of things that have both a poor will AND fort is vanishingly low, and the odds that on two saves in a row both of them are under your DC is pretty slim without some crazy optimizing (which could be put towards spells that don't suck).

[Ramza00]

This is not a comprehensive list but here is a list of spells that remove people from combat you know save or die, save or sucks, just suck, etc

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=31962

[Fax Celestis]

Because it is bad and you should feel bad for suggesting it. The number of things that have both a poor will AND fort is vanishingly low, and the odds that on two saves in a row both of them are under your DC is pretty slim without some crazy optimizing (which could be put towards spells that don't suck).

Illusion DCs are the easiest DC to bump.

[Rubik]

Power Word: Pain is a no-save-no-attack-roll-no-regular-defenses-at-all-just-die spell. 1d6 damage for 4d4 rounds for a single 1st level spell. Literally the only defenses against it are protection from [compulsion] and [mind-affecting] effects, protection from pain (which is incredibly rare), lots and lots of hit points, and SR, none of which is readily available at early levels. Basically, until enemies regularly have 50+ hp, or they're undead, mindless, or under the effects of Protection From Alignment, they're almost auto-dead, unless you roll really, really low on damage and duration both.

[edit] Average damage at 1st level: 35.

[Starbuck_II]

Because it is bad and you should feel bad for suggesting it. The number of things that have both a poor will AND fort is vanishingly low, and the odds that on two saves in a row both of them are under your DC is pretty slim without some crazy optimizing (which could be put towards spells that don't suck).

Hey, Rogues get bad both: not that rogues are that common of enemies.

[Deophaun]

Illusion DCs are the easiest DC to bump.
Not just that, but Illusion [Fear]. PK is going to be highly lethal for any fear-based caster.

[Malimar]

My witch's favored lineup these days is Phantasmal Killer (4th), Baleful Polymorph (5th), and Flesh To Stone (6th).

[Yawgmoth]

Illusion DCs are the easiest DC to bump. Saves vs. fear are also incredibly simple to beef up, and mind-affecting is a very common immunity.

[Fax Celestis]

Saves vs. fear are also incredibly simple to beef up, and mind-affecting is a very common immunity.

There's a few ways to break both fear and mindless immunities. Granted, the mind-affecting ones tend to be type-bases, but they do exist.

Phantasmal Killer is definitely no the be-all-end-all of SoDs, but it is quickly accessed, easily augmented, and will work if you know what you're doing. If you're a binder, one of the vestiges gives a 1/5rd Phantasmal Killer SLA, so there's no reason you shouldn't pop one of those off in the first round: maybe your target will bomb his saves. For a regular caster, you can do all the regular illusion boosters and fear shatterers (like Dread Witch) and have a low-slot sidearm you can throw around.

[Twilightwyrm]

Save of Dies? Before 9th level? How about Finger of Death at 7th level? Symbol of Death at 8th. Destruction at 7th for Clerics. If you want to stretch the definition of "Death" you have Flesh to Stone at 6th level. All just in Core. There are plenty de jure save or die spells below 9th.

[eggynack]

Save of Dies? Before 9th level? How about Finger of Death at 7th level? Symbol of Death at 8th. Destruction at 7th for Clerics. If you want to stretch the definition of "Death" you have Flesh to Stone at 6th level. All just in Core. There are plenty de jure save or die spells below 9th.
I think this is the opposite of what he's looking for, as 9th level was referring to the level of caster, rather than the spell level.

[Psyren]

Why does everyone forget about phantasmal killer? 3rd level sod, right there in core.

It's worth noting this is one of the few SoDs to actually remain one in PF, most likely due to the two saves.


The number of things that have both a poor will AND fort is vanishingly low, and the odds that on two saves in a row both of them are under your DC is pretty slim without some crazy optimizing (which could be put towards spells that don't suck).

It's fun for zapping Rogues.

[The Viscount]

For an early SoD other than the ones already mentioned, Stop Heart isn't bad. It's a 4th level spell (5th for arcane) and takes 2 rounds to kill as opposed to touch of juiblex's 3, and the target is in the negatives for those 2 rounds, so they're out of combat while they die.

As for adding the fire descriptor, it's straightforward enough. As mentioned above, energy substitution will work for any spell that already has an energy descriptor. If a spell does not, Snowcasting can add the cold descriptor to any spell, which you can then change to fire.

[TmasterT]

slay living. Arguably hold person a 2nd lvl spell can be save or die if someone is hanging out ready for the coup de gras

[Spuddles]

Power Word: Pain is a no-save-no-attack-roll-no-regular-defenses-at-all-just-die spell. 1d6 damage for 4d4 rounds for a single 1st level spell. Literally the only defenses against it are protection from [compulsion] and [mind-affecting] effects, protection from pain (which is incredibly rare), lots and lots of hit points, and SR, none of which is readily available at early levels. Basically, until enemies regularly have 50+ hp, or they're undead, mindless, or under the effects of Protection From Alignment, they're almost auto-dead, unless you roll really, really low on damage and duration both.

[edit] Average damage at 1st level: 35.

It sounds really cool, and it definitely is, but most encounters dont last 4d4 rounds.

[Socksy]

Suggestion for a sorcerer or bard. Some-animal-or-other's charisma-booster (Eagle's Splendour? Something like that) and then Suggestion for a wizard. Of course, you'll need a handy cliff, vat of acid, lake full of sharks... :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

It sounds really cool, and it definitely is, but most encounters dont last 4d4 rounds.Cast it from hiding and wait. Or cast it on the hardiest target on the battlefield, then ignore it and let him die on his own time while the group takes down everyone else.

It's a very efficient way of taking down one creature with damage, assuming you have the time to wait it out. It also metamagics well, at least through the first few levels.