It's Nerf or nothing (for druid wild shape)

[Aeternal]

Ok, this is a big rant, but TL;DR I need proof that level 10 druids are perfectly justified for wild shaping into a Dire Tiger and any other large dire animal to appease my DM.

MOVING ON!

My party and I have been adventuring for approximately 9-10 levels playing good ol' "Savage Tide." We've made it through storm after storm after literal roiling ocean storm to get where we're at.

Last night we began to fight a second wave of pirate invasions, and surprise surprise these weren't just normal pirates but we also have pirates in league with A) Undead Constructs (Phyrexia, mtg fans?) B) Aberrant Wizards who can quote "magically slip out of [the] grapples" and C) Demon ritualists who do the Dance of Dr. Strangelove to release a huge 20d6 explosion, effectively killing our Swashbuckler were it not for the mercy of our GM.

In an attempt to fight back while conserving spells I decided it was time to stop being the evasive spellcaster and wildshape into something big and fat (cuz really, Druid's aren't the greatest front line fighters, and even if they were I'm playing an Anthro-Bat which makes me about as effective as a emaciated puppy with any weapon).

I decided to wild shape into a dire tiger, and that's when it hit the fan. Suddenly I was breaking the game, not adhering to the books, etc etc, and I can admit the tension had been building on this because I had enough buffs on me to choke a horse (i.e. 27 AC if I needed it and a Wisdom of 31 that was decided to be brought down to 27 because one buff was not made 'clear'). I had practically half our table against me doing what I could have sworn was perfectly legal.

My argument was that as an above 8th level druid I am able to turn into any Large sized animal. Sure enough, a Dire Tiger is indeed an Animal, and of Large size. Granted, it's a formidable foe, but it fits the req's. It had a CR 8 which was 2 levels below my own ECL too, and I actually had already shaped into this form once before (in the pirate attack two months prior) so I assumed it wasn't too broken and usable.

The opposition was that, first, I wasn't able to shape into Dire Animals until level 12 (which was an outdated rule for 3ed since we're playing 3.5, and therefor almost discarded as you will see), and second that as dire animals are "feral, monstrous, or even demonic" in nature and appearance, they were not animals but better deemed 'monsters.'

At this point in the night we were tired, angry, and had been stuck on one particular group of enemies (The Strangelove Dancing Demon Quartet) for 3 hours because none of us knew demons well enough to Align Weapon/Fang.... actually none of us recognized they were demons without metagaming. Case in point, I backed off, I became a vanilla tiger.......and it was decreed I could not Wild Shape into a Dire Animal until 12th level. All in all, it had been a bad night for me (stone to flesh'd for the first 3rd of the battle and sunk to the bottom of the bay, hahaha) and getting this huge whopping bag of B-grade Nerf kinda just doesn't sit well with me, specially when DM even pulls the "cuz I say so" card, which as rightful as he is to it, still kinda pisses me off.

So, friends, I beseech you.... gimme some hard cold proof that I can (politely *twitch*) show my DM besides the PHB ruling of Wild Shape saying I can wild shape into dire stuff, IF I'm in the right. If I am in fact in the wrong, then please give me some good Wild Shape forms for lv. 10 druids that wanna get their claws a lil' bloody. For instance, proof that Dire Animals are indeed "ANIMALS," or perhaps the history of the Dire Animal. Many Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

You can become dire animals just fine. There is no real difference between the two where wild shape is concerned. You can't become a dire tiger though, cause they have 16 HD, and you can only become forms with HD equal to or less than your wild shape level (which is just your druid level, unless you lose advancement). So, your friends are mistaken, because there is no such rule that would make them be correct, but you are also mistaken. I advise a group hug.

As for beat stick forms that are not dire, dinosaurs of various kinds should serve you fairly well. Are you stuck in core? If so, the options are a bit limited, though megaraptor is a very solid option at level 10, sporting 21 strength, 17 AC, and four attacks that are accessible off of a pounce. Polar bears are also perfectly reasonable, with 27 strength, three attacks, and improved grab. There's more stuff out of core too, mostly other dinosaurs if you're trying to consume people, like fleshraker dinosaur (MM III, 40), and cave ankylosaurus (MiniHB, 57). I think it was JaronK who advised just always reading the D section of each monster having book, which gets you the three D's of wild shape. Dire animals, dinosaurs, and desmodu hunting bats (MM II, 65). Realistically, those three things are plenty for any druid, and they're still plenty minus the dire animals. You should also look into other dire animals, by the by, if you still have dire access after you point out that you legally do.

[Tiki Snakes]

There's also the point to make that you are also both right about something else.

You are legally allowed to transform into stuff that is horrifyingly dangerous and yes it does often break the game. :smallsmile:

Druids, you know?

[OldTrees1]

1) Rarely are Tier 1 classes perfectly justified in doing anything that makes them Tier 1 classes.

2) Here is some evidence

At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.

The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level.

A druid can use this ability more times per day at 6th, 7th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, as noted on Table: The Druid. In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at 8th level, a Tiny animal at 11th level, and a Huge animal at 15th level.

A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.

Dire Ape
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+13 (35 hp)

Dire animals are larger, tougher, meaner versions of ordinary animals. Each kind tends to have a feral, prehistoric, or even demonic appearance.

[eggynack]

1) Rarely are Tier 1 classes perfectly justified in doing anything that makes them Tier 1 classes.

2) Here is some evidence
Are you trying to argue that druids can't become dire animals using that as evidence? It doesn't really work. Dire is not a template.

[Anxe]

I was waiting for your to repost this! Eggynack is right. Wild Shape says it is like polymorph, but with other limitations. Polymorph only lets the caster change into a shape that has HD equal to or less then their level. Polymorph also has a max of 15HD, so technically you can never change into a dire tiger. My group's houseruled that away though. Your max continues to increase.

Strangely, this has a conflict with the SRD. The PHB says wild shape is like polymorph. The SRD says it is like alternate form which has no HD limitation.

Anyways, your group's rule is fine for a house rule I think. It just should've been established with certainty previously. Now you know! You could also change to the HD increasing rule that my group and Eggynack's group use.

EDIT: AH! I see now. The SRD made it not like polymorph to get around that 15HD restriction. Not a house rule after all. Excellent.

[eggynack]

Snip
Actually, wild shape was errata'd to use alternate form, so the SRD is correct. The HD thing is just an explicit part of wild shape, rather than a function of some connected ability.

[Anxe]

Actually, wild shape was errata'd to use alternate form, so the SRD is correct. The HD thing is just an explicit part of wild shape, rather than a function of some connected ability.

I edited my post before you quoted! Your turn!

[Gavinfoxx]

Sure you can turn into a Dire Animal... it's not a template, it's just a slightly bigger, more deadly animal.

And Animal is a TYPE. Is Dire Tiger a Magical Beast? NO! It is an Animal! So you can Wild Shape into it. You can change into it... at level 16. Not level 10. It has 16 HD, you need to change into animals at or below to your hit dice.

Here are some other forms you can change into at level 10:

Brown/Polar Bear, Dire Lion, Cave Triceratops (MiniHB), Megaraptor Dinosaur (MM errata), Rhinoceros, Cave Anklyosaurus (MiniHB), Cave Tyrannosaurus (MiniHB), Smilodon (Sabre-Toothed Tiger) (Frost).

[Zweisteine]

Are you trying to argue that druids can't become dire animals using that as evidence? It doesn't really work. Dire is not a template.

No, he's arguing that druids can become dire animals at level 8.


Dire animals are just animals made tougher so you can still fight them at higher levels. There is nothing about them that makes them not animals.

Though, as mentioned by others above, you can not become a Dire Tiger, because that particular animal has 16 HD.

[eggynack]

I edited my post before you quoted! Your turn!
True, though I feel the errata thing is important enough to justify a post. Errata is an important thing, on occasion.


No, he's arguing that druids can become dire animals at level 8.
That would certainly make sense, but I'm not sure that you're correct. There seemed to be some argument there that dire is a template. This is why explaining quotes is a good thing.

[Gavinfoxx]

See this?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direLion.htm

Size/type: Large Animal
Hit dice: 8d8+24

So you can change into it as soon as you can:
-wild shape into large creatures
-wild shape into animals
-wild shape into creatures with 8 hit dice

Note this is a Dire LION, which is legal for you to change into.

And if Dire is a template... where is it? Where is it written up as a template? Hint: it's not.

[eggynack]

Snip
I am not entirely sure who you are currently arguing against. I mean, there are the vague beginnings of an argument about whether OldTrees was arguing for dire being a template, but I don't think that anyone has argued for dire being a template since then, if he even was in the first place.

[OldTrees1]

Are you trying to argue that druids can't become dire animals using that as evidence? It doesn't really work. Dire is not a template.

Sorry for not explaining the quotes well enough.

Wild Shape cannot become templated creatures
RAW Dire Animals are not templated creatures

However I still mentioned the prohibition against templates for 2 reasons:
1) template + Dire Animals are prohibited
2) The DM might replace Dire Animals with a Dire template

Why answer a question when you can answer it and then some?:smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

Sorry for not explaining the quotes well enough.

Wild Shape cannot become templated creatures
RAW Dire Animals are not templated creatures

Ah. Fair enough then.

[Zweisteine]

If I modify a quote, it is in green. Anything green in one of these quotes is something I added.


A) Undead Constructs (Phyrexia, mtg fans?) B) Aberrant Wizards who can quote "magically slip out of [the] grapples" and C) Demon ritualists who do the Dance of Dr. Strangelove to release a huge 20d6 explosion, effectively killing our Swashbuckler were it not for the mercy of our GM.
These sound like custom monsters, and not particularly fair ones...
And 20d6 is a lot of damage to be thrown at a 10th level character. A tenth level swashbuckler with 16 constitution will have an average of 90 hit points. 20d6 does an average of 70 damage. Even with a constitution of 18 and maximum hit points per hit die, that is (exactly) half of the characters hit points (140) in one attack.
I bring this up because you said "the mercy of our GM," though it seems that the GM is "mercifully" protecting you from challenges that he made too difficult in the first place...
I assume you have a grappler, who tried and failed to grab an opponent, because the DM said "he escapes because magic." Was there any more explanation to that?

(cuz really, Druid's aren't the greatest front line fighters, and even if they were I'm playing an Anthro-Bat which makes me about as effective as a emaciated puppy with any weapon)
Druids are the greatest front-line fighters, if you don't want front-lining to be your specialty. That's what makes wild shape so great: You can be a full caster and a fighter all at once!


It had a CR 8 which was 2 levels below my own ECL too.
Wild Shape is limited by HD, not be CR. CR is calculated to match a party, not a character. A CR 8 monster is mean to be a beatable challenge to a CR 8 party, and is thus stronger than one level 8 character.


Especially when DM even pulls the "cuz I say so" card, which as rightful as he is to it, still kinda pisses me off.
We feel for you. :smallfrown:




For instance, prove that Dire Animals are indeed "ANIMALS."

Dire animals are larger, tougher, meaner versions of ordinary animals. But still animals.

Size/Type: Large Animal

Size/Type: Large Animal
There you go. If one of those isn't an animal, neither is.

[some guy]

Here's some more proof that dire animals are, in fact, animals;
the dire wolf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dire_wolf).

And I feel many people on this forum ignore the following rule, but I have a feeling your DM just might choose to not ignore it:

The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
So, you might prepare yourself for that as well.

[Gavinfoxx]

So, you might prepare yourself for that as well.

The familiar thing? Uh, how about knowledge nature and take 10.

Seriously. In order to be familiar with an animal, you must be able to pass a DC 10+ hit dice of creature knowledge nature check. Which you can -and should- take 10 on.

[Zweisteine]

Seriously. In order to be familiar with an animal, you must be able to pass a DC 10+ hit dice of creature knowledge nature check. Which you can -and should- take 10 on.

That's only to identify an animal, and some small amount of information about it.

I'd recommend using Summon Nature's Ally to become familiar with the animals you want to be.

(Also, if you want to get away without being familiar with them, don't mention it to your DM.) :smallwink:

[Alent]

2) The DM might replace Dire Animals with a Dire template

Interestingly. this is Pathfinder RAW (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dire-creature-cr-2-tohc), but Pathfinder also removed the template restriction from Wild Shape/beast shape.

[Gavinfoxx]

Each time you pass an extra five on that DC, you get more info about the animal, though... at what point is 'familiar'? And I believe Collector of Stories counts on this...

[tyckspoon]

If I modify a quote, it is in green. Anything green in one of these quotes is something I added.


These sound like custom monsters, and not particularly fair ones...
And 20d6 is a lot of damage to be thrown at a 10th level character. A tenth level swashbuckler with 16 constitution will have an average of 90 hit points. 20d6 does an average of 70 damage. Even with a constitution of 18 and maximum hit points per hit die, that is (exactly) half of the characters hit points (140) in one attack.


Vrock special ability, Dance of Ruin. It takes at least 3 Vrocks doing nothing but charging this ability for 3 turns. Note that 3 Vrocks actually *trying* to kill you for 3 turns is much, much more dangerous than this ability, between Spores, nearly 50 average damage on a full attack, at-will Mirror Image, and taking turns using Stunning Screech to keep the party controlled... Dance of Ruin is basically the DM inviting you to stomp on his monsters. Frankly, if you can't interrupt the Dance inside those 3 rounds in some way you probably need to reconsider your party's tactics.

[Anxe]

Each time you pass an extra five on that DC, you get more info about the animal, though... at what point is 'familiar'? And I believe Collector of Stories counts on this...

In my campaign, familiar is when you have actually seen such an animal. Summon Nature's Ally could work to become familiar with most creatures for me. The Knowledge Nature check also seems legitimate.

[Gavinfoxx]

The Knowledge Nature check also seems legitimate.

So you don't have to actually see the animal in your campaign then? You just make a knowledge nature check, then?

[eggynack]

The rules compendium offers a far less vague definition for what is required to become an animal, saying, "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid has seen or could reasonably know about." Based on that rule, which indicates that simply knowing of an animal is sufficient for familiarity, a basic knowledge (nature) check of the sort that Gavvinfox has indicated should be fine.

[Anxe]

So you don't have to actually see the animal in your campaign then? You just make a knowledge nature check, then?

Legitimate for other people. Like, it seems like a fair rule. Not my campaign though.

[Hurnn]

So you don't have to actually see the animal in your campaign then? You just make a knowledge nature check, then?

Even if you do have to see it scrying is a thing.

and oh yeah your gm hosed you but only partially, you certainly can be a dire animal, dire tiger is to high for you, however dire lion eats faces and is 8 hd.

[eggynack]

Even if you do have to see it scrying is a thing.

I don't think you can scry on an animal of some species without having a specific animal in mind. It would be pretty nifty if it worked though.

[Leon]

"Small furious demon eyes"

From the Dire Boar discription, this caused a near party wipe once when I read it from the book as the party lept onto it with anti evil methods (and some bad strategy). It had previously in the same session killed the Monk and Sorcerer for minor damage taken and was not happy about being disrupted again when the rest of the party found it. The paladin was gored almost to death while trying to smite evil...

[Psyren]

Interestingly. this is Pathfinder RAW (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dire-creature-cr-2-tohc), but Pathfinder also removed the template restriction from Wild Shape/beast shape.

This is not RAW at all - it is in fact a 3rd-party template from Frog God games. No Dire creature created by Paizo is built using this template, and even the template itself says so.

Note also that in Pathfinder, a Druid can indeed become a Dire Tiger as early as 6th-level. Despite this huge change, PF wild shape is still far more balanced than that of 3.5.

[Alent]

This is not RAW at all - it is in fact a 3rd-party template from Frog God games. No Dire creature created by Paizo is built using this template, and even the template itself says so.

Ah, my mistake. :smallredface: I don't suppose you know if that template was credited a year ago? I don't remember the 3pp copyright footer or half of that verbage being there, and didn't scroll down when grabbing the link. :smallannoyed:


Note also that in Pathfinder, a Druid can indeed become a Dire Tiger as early as 6th-level. Despite this huge change, PF wild shape is still far more balanced than that of 3.5.

One of the nifty benefits to PF's HD reductions. :smallbiggrin: That said, yeah, not taking on physical stats is huge.

OP, if your DM is adverse to 3.5's wildshape he might consider using PF's druid as a nerf- it really defangs your melee toolbox by making you horrifically MAD.

[Aeternal]

Thank you all for the help everyone. :smallsmile: For the most part, I've mulled things over with the DM and we're both happy we finally made the connection of the Alternate Form bit.

The next potential problem is indeed the question of 'familiarity.' Already I know this is gonna be a problem because he's already questioned my basic knowledge of the animal world ("Are you even familiar with what a rhinoceros is?"). Indeed I realize the difference between being familiar with say a rhino and a... nnn... mega-raptor or something, or even a polar bear (though really we're on an island full of dinosaurs, I don't see why I can't figure out mega-raptor. Polar bear though....nnn...). I even explain my familiarity with the Desmodu bats by being interested and curious with peoples such as myself (woo, anthro bat!) since we are far and few in between.

Another question I have is what separates some "Beasts" from "Animals." The DM and I at one point said that an animal is something that would exist on earth, while a beast does not necessarily have to be. I'd agree, but there are instances in the MM where creatures that would have been identified as Animals at one point are now Beasts instead, mainly MM2's dinosaurs. I also noticed that Megalodon is listed as a Beast, and I realize that I'll never become one before level 20 +, but we all know Megalodon was an actual animal, same as Dire Wolf. So what's the difference?

[eggynack]

The next potential problem is indeed the question of 'familiarity.' Already I know this is gonna be a problem because he's already questioned my basic knowledge of the animal world ("Are you even familiar with what a rhinoceros is?"). Indeed I realize the difference between being familiar with say a rhino and a... nnn... mega-raptor or something, or even a polar bear (though really we're on an island full of dinosaurs, I don't see why I can't figure out mega-raptor. Polar bear though....nnn...). I even explain my familiarity with the Desmodu bats by being interested and curious with peoples such as myself (woo, anthro bat!) since we are far and few in between.
Just go with the standard 10+HD knowledge (nature) roll. That means that you have the capacity to identify the creature in question, which means that you know of it, which in turn means that you can wild shape into it per the rules compendium. It's a pretty easy number to hit too, especially if you take 10.


Another question I have is what separates some "Beasts" from "Animals." The DM and I at one point said that an animal is something that would exist on earth, while a beast does not necessarily have to be. I'd agree, but there are instances in the MM where creatures that would have been identified as Animals at one point are now Beasts instead, mainly MM2's dinosaurs. I also noticed that Megalodon is listed as a Beast, and I realize that I'll never become one before level 20 +, but we all know Megalodon was an actual animal, same as Dire Wolf. So what's the difference?
There is no difference, to my knowledge. I think that anything that was once a beast is now an animal. However, you need not take my word for it. There's an MM II update document (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) that updates all monsters for 3.5 use, and clarifies the animal nature of all of these creatures, among others. That document should be more than sufficient for these purposes.

[Psyren]

There is no game term called "Beast." Your DM is making something up.

My suggestion is that you sit with him, come up with a small selection of animals that your character would be familiar with, and hammer out some structured way for you to learn more during your downtime. Less headache for him, less bookkeeping for you, and much more trust.

[eggynack]

There is no game term called "Beast." Your DM is making something up.
Actually, there was once a beast type, and now it is no more. It is a thing relevant to past-folk, but perhaps less relevant to us of a more enlightened nature.

[Psyren]

Actually, there was once a beast type, and now it is no more. It is a thing relevant to past-folk, but perhaps less relevant to us of a more enlightened nature.

Oh, I don't know all that much about prior editions. Regardless, there's no distinction like that in 3.5.

[eggynack]

Oh, I don't know all that much about prior editions. Regardless, there's no distinction like that in 3.5.
Indeed so. Thus, fancy update documents. As a result, things may proceed in copacetic fashion. This I decree.

[Stegyre]

Vrock special ability, Dance of Ruin.
Beat me to it, but I'm surprised no one has opined that "Aberrant Wizards who can quote 'magically slip out of [the] grapples'" just sounds like spell casters with Freedom of Movement, a 4th-level spell that most folks on the forum seem to view as a nigh-mandatory get-out-of-grapple card for spell casters.

It sounds like a high-CR encounter for a 10th level party, but on the other hand, the party sounds pretty optimized, too: anthro-bat druid just isn't something I think I'd feel sorry for.

[Chronos]

In 3.0, the owlbear, roc, and assorted dinosaurs were all "beasts". At the time, "animal" basically meant "vertibrate or cephalapod that exists or existed on Earth alongside humans", and "beast" meant "anything with a mostly-normal anatomy and no magical abilities but which didn't coexist with humans". In 3.5, the definition of "animals" was extended to things that ever existed on Earth, such as dinosaurs, and most other "beasts", such as owlbears, were moved to "magical beast". For reasons I'm unclear on, though, the roc was moved to "animal", despite being far larger than any real-world bird or other flyer has ever been.

Monster Manual II dates from the days of 3.0, and so its dinosaurs were listed as beasts. They were changed to animals in the official update booklet, along with the dinosaurs in the 3.5 version of MM I.

[Urpriest]

Thank you all for the help everyone. :smallsmile: For the most part, I've mulled things over with the DM and we're both happy we finally made the connection of the Alternate Form bit.

The next potential problem is indeed the question of 'familiarity.' Already I know this is gonna be a problem because he's already questioned my basic knowledge of the animal world ("Are you even familiar with what a rhinoceros is?"). Indeed I realize the difference between being familiar with say a rhino and a... nnn... mega-raptor or something, or even a polar bear (though really we're on an island full of dinosaurs, I don't see why I can't figure out mega-raptor. Polar bear though....nnn...). I even explain my familiarity with the Desmodu bats by being interested and curious with peoples such as myself (woo, anthro bat!) since we are far and few in between.

Another question I have is what separates some "Beasts" from "Animals." The DM and I at one point said that an animal is something that would exist on earth, while a beast does not necessarily have to be. I'd agree, but there are instances in the MM where creatures that would have been identified as Animals at one point are now Beasts instead, mainly MM2's dinosaurs. I also noticed that Megalodon is listed as a Beast, and I realize that I'll never become one before level 20 +, but we all know Megalodon was an actual animal, same as Dire Wolf. So what's the difference?

Hmm...this reminds me, I really ought to add a section to my Monster Handbook explaining that every single time you want to use a 3.0 monster you need to check the updated version, because monsters changed dramatically between editions. Sure, normally I could just assume that anyone who wants to play as nostalgia-laden and complicated a game as 3.5 would have background that stretches back to the 3.0-3.5 transition, but the whole reason I wrote the handbook is because people often have much less experience than they logically should.

[Chronos]

Make sure to specifically mention that Monster Manual II, the Fiend Folio, and the Manual of the Planes are 3.0.

[Urpriest]

Make sure to specifically mention that Monster Manual II, the Fiend Folio, and the Manual of the Planes are 3.0.

Mmhmm. Plus Epic Level Handbook, which a lot of people forget since some of it got built into the Core rules.