Appeal of shocktrooper

[Bacchus]

I see this mentioned a lot but I just don't really see the appeal. I haven't ever played a character with it so could anybody enlighten me with examples or methods where it measurably beneficial.

Maybe I just have a blind spot for its potential

[Nirhael]

"you can assign any portion of the attack roll penalty from Power Attack to your Armor Class instead, up to a maximum equal to your base attack bonus"

That means you can max your Power Attack while retaining your to-hit chance.

[Firechanter]

It's all about Heedless Charge.
Maximum Power Attack with no attack penalty -> insane damage, especially when combined with Pounce, Leap Attack, extra attacks etc.

[EugeneVoid]

There is no penalty if they die first.

[LordBiscuit]

If I recall correctly shocktrooper does one of two things.

a) A power attack by reducing AC rather then strenght, really allows you to smash that huge creature with an attack with practically zero chance of missing, short of rolling a 1. If it's one thing that a full BAB should be able to do, is hit consistantly.

b) It allows you to play fun AAO shanaigans by knocking medium sized creatures on their behinds by bullrushing. Easpically nice if your unlikely to kill either of them with a swing, since you get to attack them both as they get back up and prevent them making a full attack.

Thats the main perks of taking it. Most of the time it's used with option one, as I believe it's possbile to stack the feats with Mighty Leap or something to do jumping/charging power attacks with 4X the damage. Allowing you to take a good chunk out of pretty much anything.

[Vamphyr]

I see this mentioned a lot but I just don't really see the appeal. I haven't ever played a character with it so could anybody enlighten me with examples or methods where it measurably beneficial.

Maybe I just have a blind spot for its potential

The main benefit is the third tactical option, Heedless Charge. It allows you to use Power Attack without lowering your BAB, instead you take it from your AC. So it gains all the benefits of power attack with no accuracy loss. It works great for builds based around power attack/leap attack.

The other options are secondary, but could be useful in certain situations. Like being able to direct an opponent you bullrush to the left or right would be amazing if your DM likes to use lots of dangerous environments (pits, lava lakes, acid, spike traps, etc)

[OldTrees1]

The "appeal" is that it removes the penalty to attack (by putting it to AC) and thus allows you to use Power Attack at full penalty. This is only viable if you one hit kill your target so it is normally combined with several power attack multipliers. This results in the Ubercharger that is overly focused on large damage per turn.

So it is fine to pass up unless you want to be overly focused on large damage.

[Calimehter]

The penalty to AC can potentially be a problem when fighting lots of opponents or otherwise fail to clear out and/or incapacitate all of your foes before they get to go.

At the end of the day though, in most campaigns those will not be common situations. Even when those situations do come up and can be recognized for what they are, you can always hold off on the Heedless Charge if you really want to.

[Kraken]

Also, charging is often combined with raging, which together create a -4 to AC. The reckless rage feat has potential to reduce AC by 2 more, and if light armor is being worn to prevent a hit to move speed, chances are someone opting to take their power attack penalty to their AC instead of their attack bonus isn't missing much.

[EugeneVoid]

Oh right, the second reason is because AC is trash anyways.
Get miss chance effects, etc.

[Bacchus]

I thank you all


I also have a second question. This is an odd one. Is there a reach weapon that is also bludgeoning? I've looked around a little and can't find anything. Nothing important just wondering

[Alent]

I thank you all


I also have a second question. This is an odd one. Is there a reach weapon that is also bludgeoning? I've looked around a little and can't find anything. Nothing important just wondering

Lucern Hammer?

[Kraken]

I have also looked for a reach bludgeoning weapon in the past, and unfortunately the only thing I came up with was the lucerne hammer, too. It's from Dragon Magazine #331, and does 2d4 damage with both heads, is 20/x4 for crits, does bludgeoning or piercing, costs 12 GP, weighs 10 pounds, and like many weapons, has a hardness of 5 with 10 HP. Assuming the Crystal Keep pdf is accurate.

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you ever LOOKED at a Lucerne Hammer? It should probably deal piercing...

[Kraken]

I agree completely. I just rationalized that the pronged head had prongs that were so short and dull that they were closer to bludgeoning than piercing. Alternatively, just make up an otherwise identical weapon that keeps the end with the pick and replaces from pronged end with a hammer.

[Firechanter]

In PF there are a couple.
Lucern Hammer is d12 x2 P, B, Reach
Meteor Hammer is kinda Bludgeoning Spiked Chain.

[Alent]

I agree completely. I just rationalized that the pronged head had prongs that were so short and dull that they were closer to bludgeoning than piercing. Alternatively, just make up an otherwise identical weapon that keeps the end with the pick and replaces from pronged end with a hammer.

When you're hitting plate or ringmail, that's bludgeoning damage. Common pictures with the prongs also seem to have the prongs facing the wrong way to really be piercing.

And then there's other images of different lucern hammers (Bec de corbin?) that show small squared off studs rather than prongs, and so on, and so on. I always figured the weapon's exact design was a "Blacksmith's preference" and bordered on an improvised weapon in the first place.

Edit: I also just assumed that the pretty versions we see today were beautified, idealized versions made to look good when held by statues, and that the rank and file infantry would've seen a more crude weapon.

[nedz]

Shocktrooper is a tactical feat which gives you three options in combat.
No one cares about options 1 and 2, option 3 however allows you to do 9001 points of damage.

[herrhauptmann]

Oh right, the second reason is because AC is trash anyways.
Get miss chance effects, etc.

+1 Smoking Armor Spikes.
20% miss chance for about 8k. Cheapest way I know.

As a shocktrooper, buy steadfast boots from MiC. This will save you against counter chargers.

[Slipperychicken]

No one cares about options 1 and 2, option 3 however allows you to do 9001 points of damage.

Dungeoncrasher builds, however, care a lot about options 1 and 2. It makes melee crowd-control much more fun.

[Seerow]

Dungeoncrasher builds, however, care a lot about options 1 and 2. It makes melee crowd-control much more fun.

This. When doing anything with Knockback and/or Dungeoncrasher, Shock Trooper is a feat I'd take even without the charging benefit.

[StreamOfTheSky]

This. When doing anything with Knockback and/or Dungeoncrasher, Shock Trooper is a feat I'd take even without the charging benefit.

The charging PA benefit definitely synergizes w/ Knockback quite a lot. But yeah, I've actually taken Shock Trooper primarily for the bull rushing benefits more often than I've taken it specifically for the power attacking benefit.

Sending enemies hurtling across the ground in all directions like bowling balls into other enemies and knocking them all down is just hella fun!

[beowulf_gr]

It can also be very effectively combined with the feat Reckless Attack which works pretty much the same way. Take from AC --> add to damage so with Shock Trooper you can basically reduce AC by 2 x Base Attack to add that number to Dmg or even more with a Two handed weapon

[Firechanter]

Nitpick: Reckless Attack is a Conan D20 feat. 3.5 knows Reckless Offense and Reckless Charge, which follow a similar idea but are more limited.

[Venger]

It can also be very effectively combined with the feat Reckless Attack which works pretty much the same way. Take from AC --> add to damage so with Shock Trooper you can basically reduce AC by 2 x Base Attack to add that number to Dmg or even more with a Two handed weapon

are you referring to "reckless offensive" ? it tanks your AC by 4 and boosts melee atk by +2.

[beowulf_gr]

No I am referring the d20 feat Reckless attack. It's 3rd party but still if you can use it in your game it's pretty awesome

[nyjastul69]

Dungeoncrasher builds, however, care a lot about options 1 and 2. It makes melee crowd-control much more fun.

What book is it in?

[Person_Man]

+1 on the Bull Rush benefits. Being able to steer the Bull Rush and Trip enemies when you Bull Rush them into each other is a big deal, especially when combined with Knockback, even without Dungeoncrasher. (A Fighter 6 alternate class feature from Dungeonscape).

[Eldariel]

Heedless Charge is excellent. If you're wielding a reach weapon and Enlarged with a decent control setup (Improved Trip, Stand Still, Thicket of Blades) you can protect yourself from enemy melee attacks quite well. Combine Heedless Charge with Pounce, Leap Attack, Valorous Weapon, etc. and the target you hit should be paste. If you have Cleave-type effects you can paste another enemy if there are any in your threatened area (if you're Large with a reach weapon, you have 20' reach; try drawing those 20' radius circles on grid some time, the area you can pick secondary targets from is actually kinda huge).

Now then. Defensively, you then employ a variety of techniques. AC is usually a lost cause anyways - people who really care can pump Attack way beyond most reasonable AC values (e.g. Polymorph (Any Object), Wraithstrike, True Strike, Arcane Strike, Law Devotion, the magical ways to enhance attack rolls are ridiculously strong). It is, of course, worthwhile against MM monsters but "they ded they controlled"-mentality works there quite equally well. Anyways, yeah, other defenses. Some items that grant miss chances can be worthwhile; for instance (Smoking Weapon [Lords of Darkness] or the MiC Displacement armor enhancement; also some sources of blinking).

Starmantle Cloak is amazing once you can afford it, completely negating most mundane attacks and halving magicals. Abs are a superb defense; there's the option of just pumping your HP skyhigh and taking it. "Elusive Target"-feat [Complete Warrior] is an excellent option here too, since it negates the biggest worry you'll have with low AC, another brute getting close to you and full Power Attacking away.

Then there's Scarab of Invulnerability and similar things that can make you invulnerable for one turn. They tend to be daily tho. Ways to gain temporary invisibility or such are also good options, as is of course Belt of Battle to charge the other guy in the encounter down.


But ultimately, reach plus Shock Trooper plus AoO build is good enough vs. most enemies. Elusive Target and Starmantle Cloak (with Pride-domain through Cleric-dip, Planar Touchstone or such) and you're good vs. almost everybody physical defenses actually matter against. But ya, early on just simple charge in and AoO anybody who tries to hit you down/stopped/dead is good enough (note, the Power Attack damage persists until your next turn so your AoOs [B]hurt - Stand Still thus means even Gargantuan Quadropeds need to make DC 80+ Reflex-saves to approach you - vs. Colossals or Gargantuan Bipeds you unfortunately run out of reach tho).

And ye, in the right builds the Bull Rush options rock. Heedless Charge is quite universal far as damage goes tho.

[Slipperychicken]

What book is it in?

Shock Trooper is from Complete Warrior.

The Dungeoncrasher Fighter variant is from Dungeonscape.

[nyjastul69]

Shock Trooper is from Complete Warrior.

The Dungeoncrasher Fighter variant is from Dungeonscape.

Thanks. I was actually wondering what the 3rd party book being referenced by beowulf_gr was. My bad, I should have used quotes.

[beowulf_gr]

Thanks. I was actually wondering what the 3rd party book being referenced by beowulf_gr was. My bad, I should have used quotes.

I think it was the d20 Conan but I'm not entirely sure. The wording was similar to Power attack except that instead of reducing attack you reduce AC

[Fax Celestis]

I think it was the d20 Conan but I'm not entirely sure. The wording was similar to Power attack except that instead of reducing attack you reduce AC

Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might has a few feats that work on this premise.

[Rijan_Sai]

The charging PA benefit definitely synergizes w/ Knockback quite a lot. But yeah, I've actually taken Shock Trooper primarily for the bull rushing benefits more often than I've taken it specifically for the power attacking benefit.

Sending enemies hurtling across the ground in all directions like bowling balls into other enemies and knocking them all down is just hella fun!

Out of curiosity, could you use Power Attack on a Bull Rush at the end of a charge, if that BR deals damage?

Because I am now imagining a Dungeoncrasher that takes either a one level dip in Warblade, or the Martial Study: Charging Minotaur feat, for even more BFC goodness!

(Honestly, I don't see why the BR from CM can't be used with any or all of the options from ST...)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Out of curiosity, could you use Power Attack on a Bull Rush at the end of a charge, if that BR deals damage?

Bull Rush is actually one of the few maneuvers that doesn't require an attack roll of any sort. You just make the BR check. No touch attack first, like with grapple.


You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Initiating a Bull Rush

First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.)

Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

Bull Rush Results

If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)

If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.


So...I don't know? There's no attack roll to take a penalty *on*, so it's kind of hard to power attack.

If at all possible, every bull rush build wants Knockback feat anyway. It's just such a massive, light-years improvement over normal bull rushing.