Hellfire Warlock/Binder Build

[Valtu]

Alright, I've decided to go ahead and build my first Warlock, either as a future or backup character to have on reserve. I'm going to tentatively plan out all 20 levels, at least the feats and class levels.

I've got a spreadsheet for my current one, where I've rolled up my HP and got all my saves and things like that ready to go, so I just plug them into a PDF character sheet and print it off when we level :P

Anyway, I'm wanting to go the route of Warlock into Hellfire Warlock with at least a level or so in Binder for the Naberius vestige.

My question is this:

How should I divide up the levels among these classes? I'd also like to limit it to just these 3, since I've been told our DM really doesn't care for multiclassing with more than 3 classes.

[Flickerdart]

Hellfire Warlock is generally only useful with Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster. Since all you need Binder for is Naberius, how do you feel about Strongheart Vest instead?

[Red Fel]

Hellfire Warlock is generally only useful with Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster. Since all you need Binder for is Naberius, how do you feel about Strongheart Vest instead?

There are some debates as to whether Strongheart Vest is permitted (i.e. whether it counts as "immunity" to ability damage or merely a "DR-equivalent"). If your DM allows Strongheart Vest, a one-feat investment may be preferable to a one-level investment; if not, stay with Binder.

My advice, if you're doing a straight Warlock/Binder/HFW, is to go with 16 levels of Warlock, 1 Binder, 3 Hellfire Warlock. The Warlock levels don't need to be in order - there are advantages and disadvantages to going straight through or breaking them up - but for this build, you really only need the one-level dip to get Naberius.

[Uncle Pine]

Naberius can also be binded through the Bind Vestige feat without dipping in Binder.

[Red Fel]

Naberius can also be binded through the Bind Vestige feat without dipping in Binder.

Except that if you go that route, you can't access Naberius' ability to heal ability damage, which is how it fits into the build. The only way to get that benefit is through the Binder class.

[Socratov]

OK, on the topic of Naberius: the feat only gets access to the boost in social skills. You need the level of binder to access it's regenerative abilities.

Strongheart Vest: It does not seem to work since you need to freely give up the CON damage to fuel. This was mentioned in a FAQ (it's in here somewhere (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)). Do realise that some DM's do allow it, and some don't. You can try, but don't count on it.

Ok, you want to multiclass asap, it's easier to explain (finding your way) and it gives a boost in terms of classfeatures a lot when you take it earlier rather then later. So your first 2 levels are warlock 1/binder1 or binder 1/warlock 1 (second is coolest since you can make that your origin of your warlock powers), then you continue warlock until you meet the prereqs and get into HFW. finish it, and go about your merry way. I am curious however, what your goals are. If you want to to deal damage you might want to look into Eldritch glaive, or go full warlock and go debuffer (you have a lot of them)

whatever you want, here is a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265455) to help you with your needs.

[bekeleven]

Note that you don't need binder for HFW. A Rod of bodily restoration heals 12 Con / Day for 3.1k. Buy two or three, how many times per day are you hellfire blasting?

[Valtu]

Note that you don't need binder for HFW. A Rod of bodily restoration heals 12 Con / Day for 3.1k. Buy two or three, how many times per day are you hellfire blasting?

I actually hadn't thought too much about that yet, but since it's unlimited. . .why not all day?

Also, I like the passive nature of healing lost ability points vs. being reliant on having to spend an action using a magic item (wands/rods are standard actions, right?)

As for the Strongheart Vest, I'm not sure if our DM would allow it or not, but personally if it was me, I wouldn't. Kinda sounds like whether you're technically "immune" to the damage or not, the fact is that you aren't taking any, so whoever it is you're appeasing by giving them 1 pt of Con isn't getting it.


There are some debates as to whether Strongheart Vest is permitted (i.e. whether it counts as "immunity" to ability damage or merely a "DR-equivalent"). If your DM allows Strongheart Vest, a one-feat investment may be preferable to a one-level investment; if not, stay with Binder.

My advice, if you're doing a straight Warlock/Binder/HFW, is to go with 16 levels of Warlock, 1 Binder, 3 Hellfire Warlock. The Warlock levels don't need to be in order - there are advantages and disadvantages to going straight through or breaking them up - but for this build, you really only need the one-level dip to get Naberius.

Ok, cool. I wasn't sure whether it was recommended to take all 3 levels of Hellfire Warlock or not.

As to which class to begin with, I could see interesting backstory for either way of doing things. I'll probably go with whichever class has better 1st level perks unless I'm stricken with some particular story idea in the next few days.

It honestly doesn't matter a whole lot, though. Our group goes very light on backstory elements and roleplay is kind of on the back-burner as well.

[herrhauptmann]

Hellfire Warlock is generally only useful with Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster.

How so? It gives full invoking progression, so it's not like the celestial warlock which gives new abilities without progressing your basic ones.

[Red Fel]

Ok, cool. I wasn't sure whether it was recommended to take all 3 levels of Hellfire Warlock or not.

In terms of EB progression, Hellfire is vastly superior. With regular Warlock, you get EB progression by 1d6 every several levels. With Hellfire, you get 2d6 every level, on top of regular EB progression. You lose out on other class features of Warlock advancement, such as DR and energy resistance, but your invocations known and invocation level continue to advance.

Another key point to remember is that you gain access to Dark Invocations at Warlock 16. That leaves precisely four levels to spare - one for Binder, three for Hellfire. Keep that in mind if you're planning on having access to them.

[Flickerdart]

I actually hadn't thought too much about that yet, but since it's unlimited. . .why not all day?

Action economy. It's not always a good idea to do damage with your only standard action, sometimes you may want to use an invocation.

Also sometimes there isn't anything to blast, and the better you are at blasting, the fewer times per day you will need to do it (because things die faster).


How so? It gives full invoking progression, so it's not like the celestial warlock which gives new abilities without progressing your basic ones.
Because it's only got 3 levels; since Hellfire Blast is a function of class level, you can stretch it out with UT/LC and get more dice.

[herrhauptmann]

Because it's only got 3 levels; since Hellfire Blast is a function of class level, you can stretch it out with UT/LC and get more dice.

Ahh, thought it would cap after 3 effective levels of HFW.
Sort of like how you can't boost arcanamach spells beyond 10 levels by taking another casting prc. (Pre-epic anyway)

So its not that its only useful with that, but much more useful.

[Valtu]

Action economy. It's not always a good idea to do damage with your only standard action, sometimes you may want to use an invocation.

Also sometimes there isn't anything to blast, and the better you are at blasting, the fewer times per day you will need to do it (because things die faster).


Because it's only got 3 levels; since Hellfire Blast is a function of class level, you can stretch it out with UT/LC and get more dice.

I'd definitely still want to use invocations, for sure. I wouldn't only do eldritch blasts, but when I did, it'd be nice to make sure they count :P I might not have Naberius all the time either, I'd definitely switch up the vestiges once in a while to have various other abilities.

What are UT and LC? Not sure what those are abbreviations for, or how that fits in with somehow increasing damage gained from Hellfire Warlock class levels. Sounds good, though!

[herrhauptmann]

Legacy champion.
Uncanny trickster.

[bekeleven]

I actually hadn't thought too much about that yet, but since it's unlimited. . .why not all day?Well, assuming you're in 3 combat encounters/day, which last (let's say) 4 rounds each, that's 12 hellfire blasts. And those assumptions are liberal. You might go over them some, but probably not 4x, which is why I caution against blowing a build level when you could be grabbing invocations, EB, item crafting, or what have you just so you can heal con damage and constantly stand on stages of things. Although admittedly, Naverius's silver tongue is awesome with beguiling influence, if that's your thing.

[Uncle Pine]

Except that if you go that route, you can't access Naberius' ability to heal ability damage, which is how it fits into the build. The only way to get that benefit is through the Binder class.

Ouch, I thought it gave access to one 1st level vestige's ability of your choice. Too bad it doesn't work that way. Thank you for making me notice.

[Mithril Leaf]

Ask your DM if Ravenloft material is on the table. If so, take Laborious Training From Ravenloft Legacy of the Blood pg 92. It lets you enter Hellfire Warlock 2 levels early, which is another 4d6 damage per blast, assuming Legacy Champion.

Additionally, pick up some method of polymorph and a wand or something else of Devil's Ego to enable outsider forms, namely the Carnevus which Maximizes your blast, and gives you a quickened one for free. Nearly quadruples your damage output if you can take the hit to your constitution mid battle.

[Valtu]

Well, assuming you're in 3 combat encounters/day, which last (let's say) 4 rounds each, that's 12 hellfire blasts. And those assumptions are liberal. You might go over them some, but probably not 4x, which is why I caution against blowing a build level when you could be grabbing invocations, EB, item crafting, or what have you just so you can heal con damage and constantly stand on stages of things. Although admittedly, Naverius's silver tongue is awesome with beguiling influence, if that's your thing.

That's true. I suppose that is a quite a lot. Doesn't Con damage drain your HP though? Like your max HP? So if we have a NPC Cleric hired on at the moment, who is constantly healing people, he may not have the slots to constantly heal ability damage, and I'd hate to have to use an action to heal myself like every other turn. Plus, we only get to buy magic items every once in a while. Most towns we encounter don't have very skilled craftsmen or merchants, just a few here and there.

I've never really had to deal with ability damage so far, though, so I may be thinking it's worse than it really is :P

I do like the silver tongue thing, though. I think that would fit in well with the warlock's fluff and I'd also like to switch that out with other vestiges depending on their abilities as well. I suppose it could even be worth taking more binder levels, although that would kill the dark level of invocations. I'll have to do some more research and figure out what I want to do. I do think the Hellfire thing is really really cool, though!

[Taveena]

Anima Mage can actually progress both classes - the tricky part is finagling entry.

[Flickerdart]

What are UT and LC? Not sure what those are abbreviations for, or how that fits in with somehow increasing damage gained from Hellfire Warlock class levels. Sounds good, though!
Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion. They have a unique "class feature" that lets you "gain an effective level" in other classes (twice and 8 times respectively). This doesn't do anything except advance CL if you've capped out a casting class, but "a hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level." So you don't actually need to have gained any class features by using Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion for more hellfire, just that boost in effective level.

[Red Fel]

Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion. They have a unique "class feature" that lets you "gain an effective level" in other classes (twice and 8 times respectively). This doesn't do anything except advance CL if you've capped out a casting class, but "a hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level." So you don't actually need to have gained any class features by using Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion for more hellfire, just that boost in effective level.

In essence, this. Because Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire Blast is based on HFW class level, instead of an arbitrary number, if you could advance HFW beyond 3 levels, it would theoretically increase your Blast damage.

But that's theoretical. More importantly, it's exceptionally pungent cheese. A lax DM, or one who promotes creativity or optimization, may let you get away with it; many DMs would not. Be aware of that fact.

If they let you get away with it? You could just use LC and UT for the remainder of your build. Hellfire Warlock advances Warlock's EB and invocations; LC and UT advance Hellfire Warlock. It's a two-for-one bargain.

If they don't? Stick to the basics. Warlock, Binder and HFW.

[Valtu]

Those are all very interesting points, but I'd have to agree that it seems UT and LC would increase the base class, not a prestige class ECL. In either case, pretty sure my DM wouldn't go for it, and it would feel too cheesy for me to pursue myself. I like the idea of some optimization obviously, but I'm going to try not take it too overboard. Also, I'm trying to stay within the bounds of only 3 total character classes if possible.

Now for a much more basic question:

What is a good source of invocations? There are tons of books with sorc/wiz spells, but aside from Complete Arcane, are there any other WotC supplements with new invocations?

Maybe the Fiendish Codex has new ones? I need to check that. I looked in Spell Compendium today and it doesn't, just actual spells.

[bekeleven]

In essence, this. Because Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire Blast is based on HFW class level, instead of an arbitrary number, if you could advance HFW beyond 3 levels, it would theoretically increase your Blast damage.

But that's theoretical. More importantly, it's exceptionally pungent cheese. A lax DM, or one who promotes creativity or optimization, may let you get away with it; many DMs would not. Be aware of that fact.Warlock 17 / HFW 3 deals 14D6 damage/Round, or 49 damage. A dual-wielding rogue 20 with Craven deals 10D6+20 (55) sneak attack damage per hit on each of 4 hits, plus the base damage. An ubercharger deals somewhere between 250 and 5000+ damage per round.

I really don't think getting the warlock's damage per round to crack 50 counts as "extremely potent cheese." Given that their signature ability is blasting, a warlock at level 20 deals as much damage as a wizard at level 10 using a 3rd level spell on two people that made their save.

Invocations can be found in Complete Arcane, Complete Mage and Dragon Magic. And yes, UT/LC works with Hellfire Warlock, because HFW has a new ability that scales with HFW level.

[Red Fel]

Warlock 17 / HFW 3 deals 14D6 damage/Round, or 49 damage. A dual-wielding rogue 20 with Craven deals 10D6+20 (55) sneak attack damage per hit on each of 4 hits, plus the base damage. An ubercharger deals somewhere between 250 and 5000+ damage per round.

I really don't think getting the warlock's damage per round to crack 50 counts as "extremely potent cheese." Given that their signature ability is blasting, a warlock at level 20 deals as much damage as a wizard at level 10 using a 3rd level spell on two people that made their save.

Invocations can be found in Complete Arcane, Complete Mage and Dragon Magic. And yes, UT/LC works with Hellfire Warlock, because HFW has a new ability that scales with HFW level.

The cheese doesn't come from the fact that your damage increases. I happen to agree that Warlock (and its iterations) isn't the class for people who plan to do massive numbers in damage without substantial optimization.

The cheese comes from the fact that you are using vaguely worded mechanics - here, the "gain class abilities" function of LC and UT - to increase a class - here Hellfire Warlock - beyond its printed limits, on the basis that one could hypothetically (and purely hypothetically) extend it further.

It is impossible to extrapolate whether there would be any class features other than Hellfire Blast +2d6 for HFW 4 and beyond, because there is no printed explanation of those levels. This isn't like a base class, where you get levels 1-20, and can extrapolate Epic Levels if they haven't been explicitly statted; this is a PrC with a fixed number of levels, a predefined beginning and end. This exercise uses LC and UT to extend the class beyond HFW 3, based upon the description that "at each level" you gain +2d6 Hellfire Blast damage.

That's where I smell cheese.

Is it possible? Yes, but highly hypothetical, and certainly questionable. More importantly, I think it's very specifically subject to DM approval.

[Flickerdart]

The cheese comes from the fact that you are using vaguely worded mechanics - here, the "gain class abilities" function of LC and UT - to increase a class - here Hellfire Warlock - beyond its printed limits, on the basis that one could hypothetically (and purely hypothetically) extend it further.
Not vague at all. Effective level is an explicit increase, and it's what HFB is based on.



It is impossible to extrapolate whether there would be any class features other than Hellfire Blast +2d6 for HFW 4 and beyond, because there is no printed explanation of those levels.
Not relevant. You are not gaining any class features at all, merely effective class level.

The only valid objection to doing this is that "as if you had taken a level in that class" does nothing when there are no more levels left, but that's an issue of which one is general and which one is specific, rather than any claims of vagueness.

[bekeleven]

The cheese comes from the fact that you are using vaguely worded mechanics - here, the "gain class abilities" function of LC and UT - to increase a class - here Hellfire Warlock - beyond its printed limits, on the basis that one could hypothetically (and purely hypothetically) extend it further.

It is impossible to extrapolate whether there would be any class features other than Hellfire Blast +2d6 for HFW 4 and beyond, because there is no printed explanation of those levels. This isn't like a base class, where you get levels 1-20, and can extrapolate Epic Levels if they haven't been explicitly statted; this is a PrC with a fixed number of levels, a predefined beginning and end. This exercise uses LC and UT to extend the class beyond HFW 3, based upon the description that "at each level" you gain +2d6 Hellfire Blast damage.

That's where I smell cheese.
So to sum up, your argument is that uncanny trickster is cheese because it's granting too few class features?

[Tetraplex]

Well, if homebrew is allowed, there's a pretty good and (as far as I know) balanced ACF for Warlocks here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287276) that lets you pass on Deceive and Imbue Item for a weaker scaling version of the Binder's ability.
Caps at a single 2nd-level Vestige at 12th level, but if all you want is Naberius and are going pure HFW blasting, it might be worth running by your DM. Adds a bit of flexibility, in case having to use stages all the time would be a hindrance later on or, Pelor forbid, shooting Hellfire somehow doesn't solve a problem.

[Red Fel]

So to sum up, your argument is that uncanny trickster is cheese because it's granting too few class features?

My argument is that UT is cheese because HFW only has three levels. UT shenanigans basically create more HFW levels than exist.

The lack of class features is merely evidence of the lack of additional levels; it's not the focus of my argument.

But back on point, because there are only three levels of HFW, I think it's something on which you really need to get DM approval.

[Flickerdart]

My argument is that UT is cheese because HFW only has three levels. UT shenanigans basically create more HFW levels than exist.
They don't create anything. You only have 3 levels in HFW, but your effective level is 4. This is similar to how you can have a 10th level Champion of Gwynharwyf with a CL of 11 pre-Epic if you are using an orange ioun stone. There are only 10 levels of CoG, but your effective CL is 11.

[Chronos]

Quoth Red Fel:

Another key point to remember is that you gain access to Dark Invocations at Warlock 16. That leaves precisely four levels to spare - one for Binder, three for Hellfire. Keep that in mind if you're planning on having access to them.
The three levels for Hellfire Warlock aren't really "to spare", since they're progressing your invocations too. If you take Warlock 13/HFW 3, you can get a dark invocation.

[Red Fel]

The three levels for Hellfire Warlock aren't really "to spare", since they're progressing your invocations too. If you take Warlock 13/HFW 3, you can get a dark invocation.

I think it depends on your level order. If you go Warlock/HFW/Warlock, then yes. But HFW advances your invocations known and invocation level; it's not clear to me whether access to Dark Invocations is a function of invocation level (in which case you get it from HFW) or a specific class feature of Warlock 16 (in which case you don't get it from HFW). I may be mistaken, however.

[Zaydos]

The LC Hellfire Warlock damage isn't problematic on an eldritch blast it lets you get ~105 damage (30d6 with Greater Chauseble of Fell Power, 7 levels of Warlock, 3 levels of Hellfire Warlock, 10 levels of legacy champion).

It becomes a problem with Eldritch Glaive which gives you ~315 damage in a full attack.

On topic, you'll probably just want 1 level of Binder, 3 levels of Hellfire Warlock, and then just throw warlock (or if you can find something you can qualify for with just warlock and advances casting every level) for the rest. Eldritch Glaive lets you do major damage still (48d6 at Lv 20 if all three touch attacks hit and you have a greater chausable of fell power), but locks you in melee.

Anima Mage is possible, but you either need early entry shenanigans and 1 level of wizard or 3 levels of wizard which would mean delaying HFW and probably not be worth it unless you're starting at high levels. It would mean only having 1 dark invocation a decrease in EB damage till 20th, but give you 3rd level wizard casting 2 vestiges of up to 6th level, and cost a feat.

Edit: Access to new stages of invocations are part of the invocations ability of Warlock, and Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple use the same language and are clearly designed as dual casting progression classes.

[Thurbane]

Anima Mage can actually progress both classes - the tricky part is finagling entry.
True. One level in Sorcerer, with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten SPell will do it though. Or Dread Necro/Warmage/Beguiler.

[Feint's End]

The LC Hellfire Warlock damage isn't problematic on an eldritch blast it lets you get ~105 damage (30d6 with Greater Chauseble of Fell Power, 7 levels of Warlock, 3 levels of Hellfire Warlock, 10 levels of legacy champion).

I'm gonna go with Red Fel on this one and say that the problem are not the damage numbers. You should never use the argument "but the class sucks so it is ok if we give it special treatment on RAW and shady rulequestions" (Now I know Warlock doesn't suck but you get the point)

I personally think it is a hard topic to find a clear solution and falls under the category of "ask your DM" but I also doubt it is RAI and only argueably (as in ... dysfunctional rules argueably) RAW that you can increase PRCs beyond the level they are indicated with classes like LC or UT.

Would I allow it? Probably. Do I think it is RAI or RAW? Hardly but it's up for debate I guess.

[Zaydos]

I'm gonna go with Red Fel on this one and say that the problem are not the damage numbers. You should never use the argument "but the class sucks so it is ok if we give it special treatment on RAW and shady rulequestions" (Now I know Warlock doesn't suck but you get the point)

I personally think it is a hard topic to find a clear solution and falls under the category of "ask your DM" but I also doubt it is RAI and only argueably (as in ... dysfunctional rules argueably) RAW that you can increase PRCs beyond the level they are indicated with classes like LC or UT.

Would I allow it? Probably. Do I think it is RAI or RAW? Hardly but it's up for debate I guess.

I was actually pointing out how the raw numbers could easily become problematic and how there are ways to get reasonable/good damage without LC.

[Segev]

RAW? Prestige Classes are a subcategory of the category "classes." "Base" classes make up the other subcategory, and are called out as such when the rules need to distinguish them.

So if something says it advances class features of one or more classes you already have, it is not restricted, by the rules as written, to base classes. PrCs are valid targets.

Now, whether it's RAI is always a valid discussion to have, since we can't really read the minds of the developers (and even then, we can't be sure their intention would have survived to the final book if it had been more explicit), but it is definitely RAW-ok. For whatever being okay by the RAW is worth.

[Red Fel]

RAW? Prestige Classes are a subcategory of the category "classes." "Base" classes make up the other subcategory, and are called out as such when the rules need to distinguish them.

So if something says it advances class features of one or more classes you already have, it is not restricted, by the rules as written, to base classes. PrCs are valid targets.

Now, whether it's RAI is always a valid discussion to have, since we can't really read the minds of the developers (and even then, we can't be sure their intention would have survived to the final book if it had been more explicit), but it is definitely RAW-ok. For whatever being okay by the RAW is worth.

We're not saying (or at least, I'm not saying) that having LC or UT advance a PrC is wrong by RAW. Of course it's allowed. I absolutely agree that "advance class features" can advance any applicable class, base or PrC. I'm saying that when you advance a PrC beyond the listed number of class levels, you have entered "ask your DM" territory.

[Taveena]

True. One level in Sorcerer, with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten SPell will do it though. Or Dread Necro/Warmage/Beguiler.

There are some other ways to do it using... I think it was Sanctum Spell and a feat which gave you a first level spell slot which could only be used on a single spell.

[Valtu]

I think it depends on your level order. If you go Warlock/HFW/Warlock, then yes. But HFW advances your invocations known and invocation level; it's not clear to me whether access to Dark Invocations is a function of invocation level (in which case you get it from HFW) or a specific class feature of Warlock 16 (in which case you don't get it from HFW). I may be mistaken, however.

If it was treated as a Sorcerer/Wizard's spells known, then I'd think it would count. It is worded a bit differently than the way theirs are, though. What do you think?