D&D 3.5, getting rid of levels and classes. Let the players have what they want.

[Yogel]

Hello everyone!

I posted this before in the 3.5 section and was told I needed to post it in the homebrew section instead. So here it is. I've been playing table top rpgs for about 10 years now. While I have fun with D&D, I feel it's a little to restrictive. So keeping to most the core gameplay rules, I set out to get rid of levels and classes. Yes, I know there are other systems that get rid of classes and levels. I've looked at many of them. But this is something I wanted to do as an experiment of my own. A lot of this text will be in "spoiler"s because of the length of it.

D&D 3.5 Leveless and Classless System.

Character Creation –
At character creation players start with a base 200 xp to create their characters.

Races –
Human Racial Traits –
Humans are medium creatures – no special bonuses due to size
1 free class feature (not to include cantrips)
30 feet base speed
No Ability Score adjustments

Dwarf Racial Traits –
Dwarves are medium creatures – no special bonuses due to size
+2 Constitution, -2 Charisma
20 feet base speed
Darkvision
Stonecunning
Weapon familiarity: may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven warhammer as martial weapons, rather than exotic.
Stability - +4 bonus on ability checks vs bull rush or trip while standing on the ground
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison
+4 dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the ‘giant’ type
+2 appraise checks related to stone or metal items
+2 craft checks related to stone or metal

Elf Racial Traits –
Elves are medium creatures – no special bonuses due to size
+2 dexterity, -2 constitution
30 feet base speed
+4 saving throw bonus vs enchantment spells or effects of the sleep type
Farsight – Elves are able to see farther than any other race, +4 spot checks as well as ignoring range increment penalties on long and short bows.
Weapon Proficiency – longsword, and longbow
+2 bonus on listen, and search checks

Gnome Racial Traits –
Gnomes are small creatures - +1 size bonus to AC, attack roles, and +4 bonus on hide checks, small weapons, ¾ carry/lift capacity
+2 Intelligence, -2 strength
Low-light vision
Weapon familiarity – may treat hooked hammers as martial weapons
+2 bonus on saving throws vs illusion spells and effects
+1 DC on any illusion spell cast by gnomes
+1 bonus on attack roles vs kobolds and goblinoids
+4 dodge bonus vs monsters with the ‘giant’ type
+2 bonus on listen checks
+2 bonus on craft alchemy checks
+1 bonus on attack roles and damage with crafted grenade like weapons, as well as a 20 foot increased range increment with these weapons.

Half-Elf Racial Traits –
Half-Elves are medium creatures – no special bonuses due to size
No ability score adjustments
30 feet base speed
Farsight – Elves are able to see farther than any other race, +4 spot checks as well as ignoring range increment penalties on long and short bows.
+4 saving throw bonus vs enchantment spells or effects of the sleep type
+1 bonus on listen, and spot checks
+2 bonus to diplomacy and gather information
Elven blood: all effects that are related to race, a half-elf is considered an Elf

Half-Orc Racial Traits –
Half-Orcs are medium creatures – no special bonuses due to size
+2 Strength, - 2 wisdom
30 feet base speed
Orc blood: all effects that are related to race, a half-elf is considered an orc

Halfling Racial Traits –
Halflings are smal creatures - +1 size bonus to AC, attack roles, and +4 bonus on hide checks, small weapons, ¾ carry/lift capacity and a +4 bonus to hide checks, small weapons, ¾ carry/lift capacity
+2 dexterity, -2 strength
20 feet base speed
+2 bonus on climb, jump, and move silently checks
+1 bonus on all saving throws
+1 bonus on attack roles with thrown weapons and slings
+2 bonus on listen checks


Skill point costs -
Cost to acquire the next rank in the skill = current rank + 1
all skills are class skills, except for Use Magic Device, and Spellcraft.,making those class skills requires you to have the cantrip list of any caster “class” purchased(10xp) or pay 5 xp to make it a class skill, then you may purchase ranks in it.

For every 10 points in the spellcraft skill, your spells DC's gain a +1

Also, at character creation you may pick 2 knowledge skills to be your class skills, all others are untrained.


Feat point costs -
10 XP + 10 XP per prerequisite.
Max of 3 feats at character creation

Magic -

Spells are the odd ball, you can't just spend XP to learn a spell, you must research the spell in game.

You must have an INT, WIS or CHA score of 11 + spell level to learn the spell (to include cantrips). In addition, starting at level 6 spells, you must have 6 more hit dice than the spell level, as well as 6 more ranks in spellcraft, knowledge arcana, or knowledge religion than the spell level, and learned at least one spell of every spell level prior(excluding cantrips).

Cantrips - 10 XP earns you the entire cantrip list (must have a score of 11 in the casting score) for whatever class it is based from. I.E...cleric, paladin, bard, ranger, or wizard/sorcerer(because of changes made to the spell system, the Wizard and Sorcerer “class” has been merged)

Cost for individual spells -
Level of spell x 10

There are no more "spells known" or "spells per day" lists. You learn spells by studying them.

Arcane magic spells are now at will. However, each level incurs an additional 5% spell failure chance.

Spell Failure chart -
Cantrips - 0%
Level 1 - 5%
Level 2 - 10%
Level 3 - 15%
Level 4 - 20%
Level 5 - 25%
Level 6 - 30%
Level 7 - 35%
Level 8 - 40%
Level 9 - 45%

Divine magic is cast in much the same way. However, Divine casters have the option of wearing armor with the use of feats. By purchasing the Armored Caster feat anyone with access to divine spells may wear armor without incurring a casting penalty greater than that of the arcane spell caster(see failure chart above).

Feat –

Light Armored Caster
Prerequisite: Divine OR Arcane Cantrips
Benefit: Allows divine magic to be cast while wearing Light armor.
Normal: Spell incur a 100% spell failure when wearing armor.

Medium Armored Caster
Prerequisite: Divine OR Arcane Cantrips
Benefit: Allows divine magic to be cast while wearing Medium armor.
Normal: Spell incur a 100% spell failure when wearing armor.

Heavy Armored Caster
Prerequisite: Divine OR Arcane Cantrips
Benefit: Allows divine magic to be cast while wearing Heavy armor.
Normal: Spell incur a 100% spell failure when wearing armor.

Domains are granted by the deity in whom your character worships.

Reducing spell failure chance –

For every Rank a caster has in the skill “Spellcraft” they reduce their failure chance by 1%.

The way this will work, each level of spell has a % chance to fail, when rolling percentiles, if you roll at or below the number listed, you fail the spell. With ranks in spellcraft, you may add your ranks to the number rolls.

I.E. a spellcraft rank of 5, I rolled a 41, which gives me a total of 46(one more than needed). I successfully casted the level 9 spell.

Class features -

50 for introductory class features.
25 x # of increments owned for each increment of that class feature. I.E...sneak attack of 1d6 costs 50 XP. 2d6 costs 25 XP. 3d6 costs 50 XP, 4d6 cost 75xp.

BAB
BAB cost = next rank x 10

Saving Throws
Saving throw cost = current rank x 5

Ability scores

Ability score cost = ability score modifier x 10. Minimum of 10. Ability scores with negative modifiers do not yield XP back to the players. All Ability Scores start at 8 (before racial modifiers).


Hit Dice
Buying more Hit die = ½ new total number of hit die of the type of HD you're buying x HD rank x10.

Example -
½ x 2d4 x1(rank 1 HD) x10 = 10
giving the player 2d4.

½ x 3d12 x5(rank 5 HD) x10 = 75
giving the player 3d12

Buying new types of HD(also upgrading starting HD at character creation) -

At character creation you start with a 1d4, however you can upgrade this so you start with a larger die.

Upgrade cost of hit die = Rank of hit die upgrading to x10. So if I wanted to changing my starting hit die from a d4 to a d12 it would be rank 5x10 = 50 xp.

It functions a little differently after character creation. You may purchase a new type of hit die throughout your characters life for the same cost as if you were upgrading. This is not however an upgrade. Instead it adds that die type to you HD pool. Because of this you could have 2d4, 2d8, and 2d12 for a total of 6 hit die.

The first hit die you have is rolled maxed. After that you roll according to the chart.
D4 = 2+d2
D6 = 3+d3(d6/2)
D8 = 4+d4
D10 = 5+d5(d10/2)
D12 = 6+d6

Hit die ranks -
Rank 1 - d4
Rank 2 - d6
Rank 3 - d8
Rank 4 - d10
Rank 5 – d12

Based on your constitution score you take either a penalty or gain a bonus to your HD(this replaces the -+ numeric bonus to HP)

4(-3) – roll 3 of your hit die and take the lowest
6(-2) – roll 2 of your hit die and take the lowest
8(-1) – no change
10(0) – no change
12(+1) – no change
14(+2) – roll 2 of your hit die and take the highest
16(+3) – roll 3 of your hit die and take the highest

There will be a hard limit on the number of hit die your characters can have = total xp/200

This limits characters to 1 hit die per 200 experience gained (this includes the starting 200 xp)

So there it is, tell me what you think or if you have suggestions on how to improve it.

[Chaos_Laicosin]

Sorry, but I find many issues with this system.

How are you planning to grant xp to players since you are doing away with levels? The current system allots xp based on level, party size, and enemy CR.

What if someone wants to play an ogre? No monster races with level adjustments?

Xp cost for feats with a level requirement? 10 + 10xp x level?

Feats with no prerequisite, just 10 xp forever? Defeat 1 orc and use the xp for 7 more feats?

Spells with damage based on caster level (e.g. fireball) do how much damage?

No more spells per day: Invest 15 ranks in spellcraft = unlimited fireballs forever with no failure chance? With armoured caster = unstoppable force of magic?

Infinity cure spells = never having to rest ever again?

All saving throws start at 1? (Since your equation effectively makes the first rank free)

All ability scores start at 8, so getting all six up to 10 (non-hero abilities) is 120 of your starting xp?

Maybe I don't understand your intent, but this system just seems to make magic overpowered to the point where nobody would ever try a melee build.

Melee would be like: "I have maximum HD, BAB, strength, dexterity, constitution. I have all the weapon focus/power attack/combat expertise/dodge feat trees (15ish feats with prerequisite costs). I can kill maybe 8 enemies on my turn."
Magic would be all: "I used my xp for heavy armoured caster and the metamagic feats (8ish feats without prerequisite costs). Then used all the rest for my spellcraft skill and 14 Int. I can cast maximized, widened, empowered fireballs every turn and kill everything else while you deal with those 8 guys. And just in case one gets past you, I have enough armour that he won't be able to kill me."

[Just to Browse]

I am a ranged death assassin. At character generation, I buy at-will swift invisibility from the wizard (10 XP), 2d6 sneak attack (75 XP), longbow proficiency (10 XP), 5 ranks in Spellcraft (20 XP), 12 Dex (50 XP), +2 BAB (30 XP), and never lose any fight below EL 3 for the rest of my life despite having 3 HP and terrible saves.

Alternatively, I am a paladin of everlasting tankiness. I buy at-will delay death from the cleric (30 XP), divine metamagic (10 XP), extend spell (10 XP), persist spell (10 XP), cleric's turning (50 XP), dread necromancer's rebuking (50 XP), Charisma 10 (20 XP), and every day I roll my 85% to never lose any fight below EL 3 for that day despite having 3 HP and terrible saves.

To make it more embarrassing for their enemies, both of these characters can fight stark naked. Who needs armor when you're uncatchable/unkillable?

[Yogel]

This is a lot more input than I received in the other thread. Thank you.

I will make edits concerning some of the issues brought up here, and address some of the other stuff here.

Feats, its not per level, it's per prereq of the feat, so 10xp + 10 per prereq(other feats or ability score req)

xp will be granted at around 10 per session, not per monster killed or quest completed.

with the armored caster feats, you still incur a spell failure chance based on the armor. and that stacks with the percentage of that spells level. Or perhaps make armored caster feats for divine spells only to force magic users back into support positions.

You'll still need to rest, as you will still get exhausted and need sleep.

The first rank of saving throws costs 5 xp(I'll clarify this in the rules here).

Class features from prestige classes are not permitted at character creation, this will need to be clarified as well, also in order to learn spells of any level, you must have at least one from the previous level(this forces magic users to purchase cantrips first).

Maybe make it cheaper to increase Ability scores x5 modifier instead of x10? While at the same time making feats more expensive?

As for the spells per day. Maybe make it so that you must have at least 3x the spells level in ranks? you can still cast the spell if with out it, but it makes the spell 'wild'? something like that could work.

What do you think of these changes?

[Just to Browse]

I think you are writing a point-buy game (prone to trap options and abuse) off of a level-based game chock full of trap options and abuse, and that even if you weren't eyeballing XP costs or giving quadratic benefits linear costs, you would still have a really awkward and disempowering system that would cause terrible power disparities from level 1.

You need some serious groundwork before you start throwing around XP costs for hit dice and such.

[Yogel]

I'm having a play test game this Saturday, I'll work some of the kinks out then. I see what you're getting at with the hit die xp costs, but you gotta start somewhere right?

[Yogel]

I've looked at a lot of different point buy systems(GURPS being one of them). This is just something I'm trying to do with 3.5. Really just an experiment of my own. Thanks for the suggestion though.