Night stick stacking

[Spuddles]

So it's been like a decade since LM came out. Has the meta changed at all on this? I dont usually play clerics so dont look at handbooks for them. Plus all the handbooks tend towards really old, with dusty meta. Like solo's sorcerer handbook. Popular as a google hit, terrible advice.

[Gavinfoxx]

You don't NEED to use nightstick stacking to get ton of turn undead attempts...

[Kennisiou]

By RAW, nightstick stacking still works. Whether or not that means your DM allows it is a different matter.

As for whether or not it's still worth it from an optimization perspective... Nightsticks are still the most efficient way of turning gold into turn undead attempts. If you have gold and need turn undead attempts, stack nightsticks. Whether or not it's truly worth it depends on how good the effects you intend to use those extra TU attempts are compared to what you can buy with your gold. Like I wouldn't go for persisting cloud of knives over getting an item of persistent mind blank.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are some quotes, all from a single thread.


First quote:

"Human
Cloistered Cleric7/Sacred Exorcist 2/Death Delver 1
Swap knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion
Swap CC's Turning for Destroy Undead (from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft; there are 2 or 3 other options in other sources that will do, but I like this one)
Take Undeath and Planning domains
Take 2 flaws
You get Extend Spell and one Extra Turning for free. You have to spend two feats on Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). Let's take Power Attack too, just because. You get 4 feats from levels, 1 from race, 2 from flaws, for 7 total, leaving 4 you can spend on more Extra Turnings. With the free one, that's 5 copies of Extra Turning.
Get a Reliquary Holy Symbol and a Nightstick.
You have 3 + 20 (Extra Turning) + 2 (holy symbol) + 4 (Nightstick) + charisma, or 29 + charisma, uses of Turn Undead.
You have the same number of uses of Destroy Undead.
You also have the same number of uses of Rebuke Undead.
That's 87 plus triple charisma bonuses uses to fuel DMM with. Assuming a modest 14 charisma, that's enough for 13 spells."

And here's second quote:

"Human Cleric6(Rebuke Dragons ACF)/RadiantServant1/SacredExorcist1/RS X. I'm currently at level 8. Feats are Extend, Persistent, DMM(Persistent), Extra Turning.

Our group counts Radiant Servant's Greater Turning as a separate pool of turns. I have 1 Nightstick (we don't allow them to stack) and a Reliquary Holy Symbol - both refluffed to affect Rebuke Dragons instead of Turn Undead, as my cleric worships Tamara, but this isn't necessary for it to work! So with 14 Charisma base (18 with Eagle's Spleandor) I have:

17 Rebuke Dragon Attempts
11 Turn Undead Attempts
7 Greater Turnings"

Third quote:

"Reliquary Holy Symbol: +2 turns
Nightstick: +4 turns
Extra Turning: +4 turns
Any Charisma +2 item: +1 turn
Cast Eagle’s Splendor: +2 turns
Consider Extending the Persistent Spell for a 48 hour duration (8 turns). Then persist a few spells, then 2nd day persist a different set of spells. Effectivly doubles the # of persistent spells you have have active.
Use a Metamagic Rod, Extend instead of the extra turn.
Use Slow Spell to make it 6 turns instead of 7 turns. Although Extra Turning is likely a better choice.
Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su) is a single ability. Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead refer to the same ability and you have to pick one or the other, you can't double up here. The Cleric description roughly states that if your alignment changes so does your turn/rebuke ability to match.
Elemental turning such as that provided by the Cold Domain will NOT power divine feats.
Channel Incarnum (Azurin race), Destroy Undead and Rebuke Dragons will power divine feats. Sacred Exorcist gives you Turn Undead. So it may be possible to double (or more) the number of turns you get per day for use with DMM
Remember that Extra Turning adds 4 to ALL your turning pools.
Technically a touch is not a fixed or personal range. Your size dictates the range of a touch spell.
House rules could permit touch spells to be persisted if they are cast as-if personal (ie: yourself).
You could research an original spell with a range of personal that is practically identical to the spell with a range of touch.
Reach Spell turns a touch spell into a ray with a fixed range of 30ft, which can then be Persisted. However, that's a total +8 level adjustment. A cleric with Divine Metamagic for Persistent also could do it at a cost of +2 levels and 9 turnings. Seems a bit silly to force a "touch" spell into a "fixed ranged ray" only to cast it upon yourself, but technically it works!
Heirophant provides for Divine Reach which is the same as Reach Spell for free.
Technically medium is 100 ft + 10 ft. This is not a fixed range, it is a variable range depending on level.
v.3.5 Main D&D FAQ gives a specific example of Summon Monster NOT qualifying for Persistent Spell.
You could research an original spell with a fixed range (short = 10ft, medium = 20ft, long = 30ft). This original spell could be pratcially identical to the spell with a variable range.
Also look at the Spelldander Prc + Vagabond Sandals."

[Firechanter]

The sensible, healthy way to apply stuff like Nightsticks is to think of them as temporary buffs. You hold a Nightstick, you gain 4 Turn Attempts. You drop the Nightstick, you ~lose~ 4 Turn Attempts. This can lower your remaining TU into the negatives.

[bekeleven]

Q: Can a character benefit from multiple nightsticks (Libris Mortis p78) or multiple orange prism ioun stones (DMG p260)?

A: Neither of these items provides extra bonuses in multiples. The rules for stacking (Rules Compendium p21) do not allow untyped bonuses to stack if they come from the same source. However, this does lead to an interesting question: could a character use a nightstick and then grab a second nightstick to use? The Sage recommends Dungeon Masters limit the nightstick and similar items to one a day.

So it's clear that nightsticks don't stack. Can you use multiple? Well, even if you don't take the suggested DM route and ban it, then...

Assuming that you lose turn attempts when you lose a nightstick - which is obvious, since you lose the persistent benefit of a magical item when you lose the item... then that means your nightstick turns are effectively lost last.

Therefore, if you have, say, 18 turn attempts with your nightstick, then persist 2 spells, you now have 4 turn attempts. If you drop the nightstick and pick up another nightstick, you still have 4 turn attempts. So you can get the benefit of, at most, 1 nightstick when DMM persisting spells - and that's with the unadvised stacking rules Sage cautions DMs against.

If people think that any alternative turning besides incarnum + rebuking dragons grants DMM, I'll refute that in a separate post. Again.

[Spuddles]

The sensible, healthy way to apply stuff like Nightsticks is to think of them as temporary buffs. You hold a Nightstick, you gain 4 Turn Attempts. You drop the Nightstick, you ~lose~ 4 Turn Attempts. This can lower your remaining TU into the negatives.


So it's clear that nightsticks don't stack. Can you use multiple? Well, even if you don't take the suggested DM route and ban it, then...

Assuming that you lose turn attempts when you lose a nightstick - which is obvious, since you lose the persistent benefit of a magical item when you lose the item... then that means your nightstick turns are effectively lost last.

Therefore, if you have, say, 18 turn attempts with your nightstick, then persist 2 spells, you now have 4 turn attempts. If you drop the nightstick and pick up another nightstick, you still have 4 turn attempts. So you can get the benefit of, at most, 1 nightstick when DMM persisting spells - and that's with the unadvised stacking rules Sage cautions DMs against.

If people think that rebuking dragons grants DMM, I'll refuse that in a separate post. Again.

Ah, that's what I was thinking of. A nightstick is a rod, right? Which means you have to wield it. You cant duct tape a thousand of them together to get extra turning a thousand times. A night stick basically raises your turning cap by 4.

The only way to make that useful for the persisting would be via gavinfoxes builds.

[Kraken]

Nightstick:This black rod carved of darkly stained wood is inset with religious symbols of various deities. Anyone who possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains four more uses of the ability per day.

It seems clear to me that wielding isn't necessary, it merely needs to be on your person. With that said, it seems clear to me that, just like other rods (metamagic ones, notably), or even limited use magic items such as boots of teleportation, there's no reason for you to not be able to use more than one a day. The Sage seems to indirectly admit that using multiple such items in a day is legal by saying that's it's recommended to allow only the use of one, rather than using more than one is illegal. Not that Sage answers are RAW anyway.

[bekeleven]

With that said, it seems clear to me that, just like other rods (metamagic ones, notably), or even limited use magic items such as boots of teleportation, there's no reason for you to not be able to use more than one a day.

Boots of teleportation give you an X/day ability. Nightsticks give you an untyped bonus. Stacking rules are different for these things, in that only one of them is addressed. (hint: it's the bonus)

[Kraken]

Boots of teleportation give you an X/day ability. Nightsticks give you an untyped bonus. Stacking rules are different for these things, in that only one of them is addressed. (hint: it's the bonus)

I don't see how you are arriving at the conclusion that this is a bonus, and that stacking rules come into play at all.

[Firechanter]

Maybe the phrase "four more uses" tipped him off.

[Cog]

Maybe the phrase "four more uses" tipped him off.
"Bonus" is a defined game term that is used more narrowly than the general English word, and which does not include the Nightstick's effect. See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifiers).