Using Alter Self to turn into a Dragon

[hirojinbrodie]

A not so simple question. Can I use Essence of the Dragon spell (Races of the Dragon), paired with alter self, to turn into a dragon of 5HD or less? Essence of the Dragon states that you count as a dragon for spells. Alter self states that you can turn into a creature of your type. Do these work together for like lets say turning into a Copper Dragon Wyrmling, or is this a pipe dream?

[SPoilaaja]

yes, it is possible

[Spuddles]

May I suggest white dragon for a fly, swim, climb and burrow speed?

[hirojinbrodie]

The multitude of movement modes really makes a white it a great choice. There is also the Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon) for a nice beefy AC boost, and Mercury Dragon (Dragons of Fairune) for a truly incredible fly speed. Also there is Copper Dragon for their ability to climb on walls. Honestly the possibilities of this combination require a list.

[Deophaun]

There is also the Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon) for a nice beefy AC boost, and Mercury Dragon (Dragons of Fairune) for a truly incredible fly speed.
Mercury Dragon isn't about the fly speed, because alter self caps you at 120. However, perfect maneuverability is nothing to sneeze at.

[hirojinbrodie]

Further question. What happens when the Essence of the Dragon spell stops. It has a 1min/lvl duration while Alter self lasts for 10min/lvl. Would you keep the form since you qualified for it when the spell was cast. Would the spell end? Would you have to pick a new form?

[Deophaun]

I believe the spell continues as-is, because alter self doesn't keep checking to make sure your type stays the same.

[bekeleven]

I believe the spell continues as-is, because alter self doesn't keep checking to make sure your type stays the same.

Yeah. If you cast Suffer The Flesh for +5 Caster Level for 1 round, then cast an Hour/Level buff, the buff doesn't last 5 fewer hours 1 round after you're done casting it.

Conditions during casting are all that matters.

[shylocke]

That is definitely a dm question. My DM would not allow it. Niether would i. Also the alter self caps fly speed at 30'

[Deophaun]

Also the alter self caps fly speed at 30'
That's quite some news. The SRD will be shocked to hear it:

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement)

[shylocke]

Sorry was looking in 3rd edition pH. Found my 3.5 and i do stand corrected sir.

[shylocke]

But FYI I do tell the SRD "was 'up"

[hirojinbrodie]

Okay, so let's say the DM doesn't allow it, and says that when the first spell ends it does not stay active with the second spell. What happens then? Does the spell just end? Does the form end but the spell continue until dismissed? Any precedence to be found in the rules?

[bekeleven]

Okay, so let's say the DM doesn't allow it, and says that when the first spell ends it does not stay active with the second spell. What happens then? Does the spell just end? Does the form end but the spell continue until dismissed? Any precedence to be found in the rules?

It's not RAW, but IMO the most sensible thing would be to say that the choices made during Alter Self's casting are rendered invalid, and therefore the spell fizzles when the underpinning spell expires.

[Captnq]

By RAW, totally works.

As a DM, I look you in the eye and say, "No."
Then when you say "but", I cut you off and say, "No."

Then when you try a third time. I cut you off again, pick up some dice, drop them without looking at them an say, "Whoops! Reality Shift! Alter Self no longer works anywhere in the universe you are currently in." Then I pick up the dice and shake them slightly, "What are the chances polymorph in general stops working?"

Unless you are playing an "anything goes" game, you're taking one of the most undervalued by CR monster in the game and turning yourself into one with a second level spell. There's RAW, then there's trying to break the game.

You're a humanoid. Alter self into various humanoid forms, which is broken enough when you look at the list.

Because if MY players started pulling this crap, every 3rd level sorcerer would turn into a dragon, round 2. I'd have entire hoards of 3rd level sorcerers who did nothing but turn into wyrmlings. I would run rampant over the players with low level schmucks.

I've incapped half the party with two white dragon wyrmlings when the party was all 6th. You know what I could do if I could have a small platoon of 3rd level humans all turn themselves into 3 HD White Dragon Wyrmlings?

10 3rd level sorcerers able to turn into 10 wyrmling white dragons for 30 minutes is supposedly a CR 10 encounter. A party of 4 at 6th level would only get 1,500 xp for defeating them. I will tear that party apart with 10 wyrmlings. I will leave skulls on pikes with 10 wyrmlings.

Seriously. It's broken. I don't care what RAW says, it's broken.

[Spuddles]

By RAW, totally works.

As a DM, I look you in the eye and say, "No."
Then when you say "but", I cut you off and say, "No."

Then when you try a third time. I cut you off again, pick up some dice, drop them without looking at them an say, "Whoops! Reality Shift! Alter Self no longer works anywhere in the universe you are currently in." Then I pick up the dice and shake them slightly, "What are the chances polymorph in general stops working?"

Unless you are playing an "anything goes" game, you're taking one of the most undervalued by CR monster in the game and turning yourself into one with a second level spell. There's RAW, then there's trying to break the game.

You're a humanoid. Alter self into various humanoid forms, which is broken enough when you look at the list.

Because if MY players started pulling this crap, every 3rd level sorcerer would turn into a dragon, round 2. I'd have entire hoards of 3rd level sorcerers who did nothing but turn into wyrmlings. I would run rampant over the players with low level schmucks.

I've incapped half the party with two white dragon wyrmlings when the party was all 6th. You know what I could do if I could have a small platoon of 3rd level humans all turn themselves into 3 HD White Dragon Wyrmlings?

10 3rd level sorcerers able to turn into 10 wyrmling white dragons for 30 minutes is supposedly a CR 10 encounter. A party of 4 at 6th level would only get 1,500 xp for defeating them. I will tear that party apart with 10 wyrmlings. I will leave skulls on pikes with 10 wyrmlings.

Seriously. It's broken. I don't care what RAW says, it's broken.

Maybe you could learn how the RAW work before going full asshat?

An actual white dragon wyrmling has 2x the HP and 1.5x the attack of a third level sorcerer. Which, by the way, cant alter self at all.

10 wyrmlings will do nothing to a level 10 character, much less a whole party of them.

Anyway, a 4th level sorcerer using his one spell known to turn into a tiny white dragon is a CR4 encounter. An actual tiny white dragon? CR2.

You just sound like a very new DM.

[Deophaun]

I've incapped half the party with two white dragon wyrmlings when the party was all 6th. You know what I could do if I could have a small platoon of 3rd level humans all turn themselves into 3 HD White Dragon Wyrmlings?
I don't know... maybe learn how alter self works?

[hirojinbrodie]

To actually managed to use the combination without scrolls or wands would require sorcerer level 5 since that is when you learn your second spell. You can't use the combination unless they are both in place. I think being able to manage such a thing at 5th level on a consistent basis is hardly game breaking.

[Chronos]

Yeah, Alter Self just gets you appearance, natural armor, natural weapons, and movement modes. It does not give you breath weapons, or innate spellcasting, or spell-like abilities, or ability scores. Yes, it's a powerful spell, and this trick makes it more powerful, but it hardly makes you the full equal of the thing you're mimicking.

[Outlawzero]

There is also the spell Abberate.
"The caster transforms one creature into an aberration. The subject's form twists and mutates into a hideous mockery of itself. The subject's type changes to aberration, and it gains a +1 natural armor bonus to AC (due to the toughening and twisting of the flesh) for every four levels the caster has, up to a maximum of +5."
There is also a wolf one like way of the wolf or something like that but compared to dragons & abberations who cares? The only wolves worth turning into have too high an HD.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There is also a wolf one like way of the wolf or something like that but compared to dragons & abberations who cares? The only wolves worth turning into have too high an HD.Aspect of the wolf. It's useful for using with a Maximized, Empowered awaken spell on yourself.

Aberrate is useful for permanently polymorph any objecting into an elan for immortality.

[Deophaun]

Don't forget the spell that turns old threads into zombies.