Non-magic character on equal footing to a magic character?

[kroonermanblack]

So I've been putzing around the forums for a few days, and noticed that, basically, casters are gods.

Is there any way to put a non-caster on equal footing, or is it literally impossible for any combination of non-caster classes in a single character to match what a wizard/cleric/druid can do?

In just the little reading I've done, I get the impression that the answer is no. That magic is simply so overbearingly powerful starting as low as 7 or 8, that you're done, if the mage is halfway competent.

[Croix]

So I've been putzing around the forums for a few days, and noticed that, basically, casters are gods.

Is there any way to put a non-caster on equal footing, or is it literally impossible for any combination of non-caster classes in a single character to match what a wizard/cleric/druid can do?

In just the little reading I've done, I get the impression that the answer is no. That magic is simply so overbearingly powerful starting as low as 7 or 8, that you're done, if the mage is halfway competent.

Other than nerfing the ever loving out of their only real class skill (for the most part)? No. Casters just do everything better after a certain point. Never going beyond a certain level does keep it sort of even though... though the caster classes will always be a bad choice for low level (1-4/5 ish) one shots.

[eggynack]

Ya mean like an uber-gestalt? If you're just talking a regular mundane character against a tier one caster, then no, there is no real way to compete if the caster is being played in a competent manner. A non-magic character can be on equal footing to a magic character though, if we're not talking about tier one casters. Compare a warblade to a warmage or healer, for example.

An uber-gestalt can be roughly caster equal though, given a sufficient quantity of classes. The exact degree of equality, and the quantity of classes needed for said equality, is up to debate to some extent. A gestalt of everything from tier three on down can definitely do it, though there are some casting classes in there. I dunno if you can pull it off with no magic having classes. Not many classes without magic in the first place to work with. Even monks have some magic in them.

[Karnith]

Is banning/nerfing all of the things an option? Are you willing to consider homebrew and/or significant houserules? Or are you looking for non-casting builds and options that already exist?

If the latter, sufficiently generous access to magic items (i.e. much more than you'd get from recommended wealth by level) can give noncasters most of what they need to keep up with casters, though it generally does so by making them item-based casters.

[kroonermanblack]

I should have mentioned, this isn't for a game, this was my pure curiosity.

If we're setting ground rules, I'd probably say just all official D&D 3.5 books, including the Dragon stuff, but no homebrew.

It was more about questioning how to equal a character which everyone seems to say is basically win-button for everything, which offends my sense of parity (why have any other class?!) more than anything else.

[eggynack]

If it's just a standard game, without gestalt, then it is what it is. A healer isn't going to get to warblade level competency either. It's just how the game is. You can build a fancy niche for yourself, and you can channel the caster's force towards melee helping instead of fight dominating, but there is no parity to be had. Or, rather, there is no parity to be had given moderate optimization on both sides. A shocktrooper melee guy can probably equal a wizard who tries to magic missile everything.

[Karnith]

Just to further clarify, what are you willing to consider as far as non-casting resources? I assume that things like psionics and the Artificier is out, but do you consider e.g. the Factotum a non-caster? It gets access to spell-like abilities, and can therefore mimic many abilities available to full casters without actually being a caster. I assume that you're looking for classes/builds/options without significant magical elements to them, but it's worth asking.

As far as operating or adventuring with heavily-optimized full casters, there are non-casting classes/builds that can at least remain relevant in their niche. The Tome of Battle, for instance, is known for its classes that have base power levels noticeably higher than previous non-casting classes though their out-of-combat utility is limited. Additionally, casters who primarily buff, debuff, and control the battlefield generally fit in fine with other characters at any optimization level. And, finally, caster supremacy is noticeably less pronounced at lower levels and lower optimization levels.

If you're talking about comparisons to high-optimization full casters, though, then there aren't really non-casting options that come close.

[kroonermanblack]

Just to further clarify, what are you willing to consider as far as non-casting resources? I assume that things like psionics and the Artificier is out, but do you consider e.g. the Factotum a non-caster?

I've been meaning to ask, I googled the factotum, and I think I just found a write-up on someones website. Is there an official source for it? When I was reading it, it honestly just read like a min/max wet-dream, kind of super cheesy, 'you can do anything from any class if you can get it past the DM' kind of thing.

In my mind, I was really just thinking fighter, ranger, rogue, etc. vs. wiz, cleric, druid, etc. but that probably boils down to 'caster class' vs. 'not a caster class'.

To me, the artificer is a caster class, as is a psion, though both use a different flavor.

[eggynack]

I've been meaning to ask, I googled the factotum, and I think I just found a write-up on someones website. Is there an official source for it? When I was reading it, it honestly just read like a min/max wet-dream, kind of super cheesy, 'you can do anything from any class if you can get it past the DM' kind of thing.
Dungeonscape, page 14.


In my mind, I was really just thinking fighter, ranger, rogue, etc. vs. wiz, cleric, druid, etc. but that probably boils down to 'caster class' vs. 'not a caster class'.

To me, the artificer is a caster class, as is a psion, though both use a different flavor.
Your definition of caster classes is just tier one and two classes, and your definition of mundane classes is just tier four and five classes. It's a lot easier to attain parity if you expand your definitions a bit.

[Gavinfoxx]

Factotum is in Dungeonscape, and it is the skills class. There are some handbooks and stuff for it, yea.

But you'll need the actual books to see the actual results of the guides.

Here's the guide to the free things you can get WITHOUT having lots of books:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=513

And here is a meta-handbook that shows you the various handbooks with which you can educated yourself about various concepts in game:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0

And here's a listing of all the base classes and their tiers:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8740.0

Note that there are concepts that can be played at any given tier (like, tier 3 has arcanists, divine characters, skill characters, martial characters, etc.).

[Zweisteine]

You could own a somehow mobile base with an antimagic field covering everything, and have another antimagic field project from the floor. The walls are adamantine, and all doors can be closed in an insantiy with one command word thought. That same commands activates the antimagic fields. The platform also has a dimensional lock spell underneath the antimagic fields, and extending around it. That way, the wizard cannot escape so easily.

Of course, if this works, you would still need to lure the casters to it, and it wouldn't really be fair... It would also cost millions of gp (or 25k for a ring of one wish (a ring (as opposed a casting or a candle of invocation) so nobody else knows the exact specifications of the magical battlefield)).

[Gavinfoxx]

Antimagic fields are super small, and a competent caster isn't inconvenienced much by them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The answer to your question, OP, is a resounding "no."

Non-casters simply cannot match casters in ability, period, without serious houseruling.

[Gwendol]

I've been meaning to ask, I googled the factotum, and I think I just found a write-up on someones website. Is there an official source for it? When I was reading it, it honestly just read like a min/max wet-dream, kind of super cheesy, 'you can do anything from any class if you can get it past the DM' kind of thing.

In my mind, I was really just thinking fighter, ranger, rogue, etc. vs. wiz, cleric, druid, etc. but that probably boils down to 'caster class' vs. 'not a caster class'.

To me, the artificer is a caster class, as is a psion, though both use a different flavor.

I would direct you to the Tome of Battle, and take a good look at the three classes given there. The Crusader and the Swordsage especially, as they are able to cover a lot of ground and manage to hold their own against most kind of opponents. The warblade too, but it is more narrowly focused on the (melee) combat.

EDIT: Ranger and Paladin do get limited casting, that can be made quite potent given the right choices.