Why do we gish?

[Akolbi]

I'm just curious as to reasons people seem to like the idea of a spellsword, in its various forms.

Fantasy seems to be full of them, and, as sub-optimal as they usually are, we keep making them in our RPG.

I will say that the reason I gish is that I think the iconic fantasy hero (or villian...i like villians) has a sword in one hand, and a spell in the other, and no matter what game i play, i try to find a way to do so. I think my first Pathfinder character was a Magus.

So, why do YOU gish?

[Gemini476]

Because sometimes you don't want to play the squishy Magic-User, but you don't want to be as mundane as the Fighting Man. Hence the Cleric.

[Snowbluff]

All of my characters are intolerable and arrogant Mary Sues who not only destroy the fabric of reality, but also are better than the fighter at sword combat.

Wizard5/Swiftblade9/Spelldancer1/AbjurantChampion4 master class!

[Akolbi]

Hence the Cleric.

right, but there seems to be a strong...push? for an arcane version of that. instead of the holy man, hes the guy who musters massive intellect while beating you in the face...i don't know, i was more referring to things like the PF magus and the eldrich knight

[DMVerdandi]

Because it's stronger than simply swinging the sword.
If one is using magic for the express purpose of killing individual opponents quickly while reducing their own weaknesses (Generally a lack of martial prowess), then mixing spell and striking is the obvious choice.

Plus it looks cool.

[tadkins]

Most, if not all, the Final Fantasy protagonists are gishes of some sort.

Good way to play a fighting class with a little bit more, so to speak.

[Gemini476]

right, but there seems to be a strong...push? for an arcane version of that. instead of the holy man, hes the guy who musters massive intellect while beating you in the face...i don't know, i was more referring to things like the PF magus and the eldrich knight
Its still just because people want a concept that's somewhere between the wizard and the fighter.

I only used the cleric as an example because that's literally what it started as.

But yeah, there's bunches of reasons to want a spellsword. As has been mentioned, many of the Final Fantasy protagonists were swordy casters, and even Gandalf was a great swordsman. There's also some desire to just get the best of both worlds.

[eggynack]

To address one of your points, which I feel is important, a gish is not suboptimal. It is worse than a full caster, obviously, but at the same time, a gish is usually going to be superior to a humdrum melee fellow. Because casting is awesome. It's all a matter of perspective. It's a good thing to do, sometimes, to take a step back from what you're doing and evaluate what a given character is capable of, instead of saying, "This is a wizard who unwisely took some fighter levels." Instead, say, "This is a fighter who wisely took wizard levels," or better yet, "This is a gish."

[RPGaddict28]

So that we can learn to gish ourselves up.

[Croix]

I only Gish when I can't Theurge. Only cause I like having magic, but being able to hold my own should I be alone cause of near tpks cause mundanes don't always kill the BBEG before I can do something to assist them. :smallredface:

In my defense I try to help them incorporate some decent level of spellcasting in their straight 20 class builds. x.x

[ChaoticDitz]

Its still just because people want a concept that's somewhere between the wizard and the fighter.

I only used the cleric as an example because that's literally what it started as.

But yeah, there's bunches of reasons to want a spellsword. As has been mentioned, many of the Final Fantasy protagonists were swordy casters, and even Gandalf was a great swordsman. There's also some desire to just get the best of both worlds.

Technically, the word and concept of gish was derived from gith(don't remember if -zeri or -yanki) multiclass Wizard/Fighters.

On-topic, well, some things are being left out by other answers. A lot of the facets of gish-desire have nothing to do with wanting to be like your favorite fictional character (I mean, come on, when's the last time you saw an Artificer or Incarnum-user in standard fiction? :smalltongue: ) but more a desire to live a personal concept. I mean, the idea of a spell in one hand and a longsword in the other is insanely cool, but how many gish builds do you see trying to have that look?

See, the thing is, arcane gishes present something special to everyone who uses them. For one person, it might be the challenge of making a working build with components that aren't inclined to work together naturally. Some people might want to be a fighter with more versatility and the strength of self-buffs, while still others prefer what could be described as the subtlety of arcane magic, preferring to use spells extremely rarely but for them to be powerful when used, and gishing allows them to do something the rest of the time.

So yeah. There are lots of reasons to play a gish... Just one of which being how insanely awesome they look.

[herrhauptmann]

Technically, the word and concept of gish was derived from gith(don't remember if -zeri or -yanki) multiclass Wizard/Fighters.

Probably Y's.
The Z's seem to have more of a spiritual/monk flavor.

I personally don't think gish's are iconic, not unless the FF series is your icon.
The older fantasy heroes/characters were either casters or warriors. (For a while in medieval times, hero types were more religious who could beat monsters through prayer and goodness, like Saint Martha and the Tarrasque) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasque)


I can give lots of examples of mundane heroes in the last 100 years or so. But no magic/warrior types.
Does anyone have any that aren't Final Fantasy or D&D spinoffs? (I don't think Gandalf counts, he had a sword but was never shown to be an accomplished swordsman. Elves from the Silmarrilion might, like Feanor or Gil-galad. But they were practically demigods, who often had great physical strength on their own, and used more subtle magics for other choices. Like Luthiens mother warding an entire country from entry by Orcs/humans. But again, she was a demigod of the same general order as Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, and the Balrogs.)

[Fax Celestis]

Most of the Gish examples I know of come from more modern fantasy. Shanarra has gishes, Wizards First Rule sort of does…honestly though I think it's Star Wars' fault. The Sith and Jedi are paragon examples of gishes (even if they're divine-ish enough that if I drew them up in D&D I'd use cleric as a starting point), and their ubiquity in our culture and especially our subculture makes them an icon we desire to emulate. Case in point: Jedi is so ubiquitous a concept, iOS autocorrects it to capitalize, but doesn't know what a Gish is.

[Firechanter]

I currently play a Gish in our AD&D2 game and I gotta say he kicks ass. Actually not a Ftr/Mag but Ftr/Brd but the idea is the same. I buff myself, debuff the enemy, and shred the enemy with dual longswords like a cuisinart. Taking half the opponents out of the fight in the first round with a spell is priceless.

In 3.5, I played a Gish only once - that character actually had full BAB, 19/20 Wizard spellcasting and Demonbinder on top for a total of 70+ spells per day.
Oh and she wore a chainshirt and wielded longsword and longbow, just for kicks.

edit: damn you autocorrect!

[Techwarrior]

So, why do YOU gish?

Honestly, it started because so many of my favorite characters from the books I read are spellcasting warriors of some sort or another. Kylar Stern (Night Angel Trilogy), Shea Ohmsford (Shanara), Gandalf (LotR), Jon-Tom (Spellsinger), and Lord Mhoram (The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant) to name the ones that come to me off the top of my head.

[Gemini476]

Technically, the word and concept of gish was derived from gith(don't remember if -zeri or -yanki) multiclass Wizard/Fighters.

It's Githyanki Wizard/Fighters, yeah. Do note that those only came in during AD&D, however.

Chainmail only had Wizards as far as casters go (and they were literally just refluffed artillery), but once you got to OD&D... Well, let me quote Wikipedia on this:

Dungeons & Dragons (1974-1976)

The cleric character class first appeared in the original 1974 edition of Dungeons & Dragons.[2] There the class is described as gaining "some of the advantages from both of the other two classes (Fighting-Men and Magic-Users) in that they have the use of magic armor and all non-edged magic weapons (no arrows!), plus they have numbers of their own spells. In addition, they are able to use more of the magical items than are the Fighting-Men." As is typical of the terse manner of the original rulebooks, little more is said about the cleric class, though since the followers gained when creating a stronghold include "Turcopole"-type horsed crossbowmen, there is already a hint of the crusades as an inspiration, as seemingly later confirmed by Len Lakofka.[3]

The cleric character class began as a simulation of vampire hunting clergy, such as seen in B grade "Hammer Horror" films, specifically created to oppose a vampire player character called "Sir Fang".[4] E. Gary Gygax added the restriction on weapon types, influenced by a popular interpretation of the Bayeux Tapestry where Odo of Bayeux is depicted with a mace in hand, though this is sometimes conflated with Archbishop Turpin of Chanson de Roland fame, who actually wields both spear and a sword called "Almace". When the paladin character class was introduced in Supplement I - Greyhawk (1975), the potential for confusion between the roles of the two classes arose. Probably the clearest way to understand the distinction is to envision the archetypes as relating primarily to Archbishop Turpin and Roland as models.
Emphasis mine.


But yeah, the term Gish comes from the Githyanki word for "Skilled", and originally referred to their Fighter/Wizards. I'm pretty sure it's from the first Fiend Folio. Incidentally, Githyanki do not have clerics - so that may be a reason behind the Gish.

[Alefiend]

I personally don't think gish's are iconic, not unless the FF series is your icon.
The older fantasy heroes/characters were either casters or warriors. (For a while in medieval times, hero types were more religious who could beat monsters through prayer and goodness, like Saint Martha and the Tarrasque) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasque)


I can give lots of examples of mundane heroes in the last 100 years or so. But no magic/warrior types.
Does anyone have any that aren't Final Fantasy or D&D spinoffs?

Just off the top of my head:

Elric of Melniboné.
Lythande, Marion Zimmer Bradley's blue adept.
Grey Mouser, though usually with comic effect.
Cugel the Clever, among several of Jack Vance's wizards.

[Yogibear41]

1. Because a REAL man don't need no stinking magic, hes got his sword, or axe, or mace and hes here to woop you stinking robe wearing pansies.

2. Because a SMART man doesn't need your silly sword or armor he has the magics of the universe and can bend reality at his will.

3. Because a REAL SMART man can crack your skull with his sword, while taking a fireball to the face, all while concentrating on a force wall holding back legions of your minions. He laughs at anti-magic fields and He laughs at your legion of rust monsters. He doesn't need to quest for his super duper weapon of legend he makes his own. He doesn't need to stand behind the meatshield for protection he is the meatshield.


And if that isn't reason enough he can cast 9th level spells with 200 hp and a high fort save, instead of 90 hp and roll a 20 or die save.

And he doesn't have to worry about following some silly code of conduct from the boss man up stairs and waking up one day as a fighter with a bad bab and low hp. He does what he wants when he wants how he wants.

[Marlowe]

Would NOT call Cugel a "Gish". More a "vile little monster who lies and betrays his way out of sticky situations, brings ruin and misery to everyone he meets, and literally can't cast a spell properly given unlimited time and an instruction manual." But I admit that takes a while to write. The Mouser, though his spellcasting record is spotty at best, is still a better example.

It's been years since I inflicted a Moorcock story on myself, but didn't Elric's spellcasting consist largely of yelling for his demonic patron to help him? Sounds more like some sort of (evil) Divine.

[hymer]

I gish because I like playing someone who hits enemies with sharp implements. But I also like being of use outside combat, so something is generally needed in the concept. One way is to gish, which incidentally makes your sharp implements all the more likely to kill enemies at the same time.
Sometimes I also want to play an armoured guy, a very lawful and very scary individual. To be really effective, you almost require magic, so the only way this particular concept can work is with some sort of gish (even if its pretty much a cleric or duskblade out of the can).

[Mithril Leaf]

Because a Chameleon Spelldancer can persist Divine Power and Hunter's Eye while Draconic Polymorphed into a Kelvuzu, thus gaining full BAB with absurd sneak attack. Sneak Attack gishes are fun as hell.

[Eldariel]

Because the idea of hitting somebody with a sword and imbuing a lightning strike through it is just cool. Or the idea of raising a force wall with your left hand while slicing something open with your right one.

[nedz]

Because this is a Sword and Sorcery game.

[Vaz]

So that we can learn to gish ourselves up.

Have an internet.

[Jeff the Green]

Because this is a Sword and Sorcery game.

My understanding is that Sword and Sorcery referred to things like Conan the Barbarian, where the good guy is a swordsman and the bad guy a sorcerer.

Personally, because my introduction to fantasy literature was through LotR (Gandalf, Sauron) and David Eddings (Belgarion, Beldin, the Church Knights). So to me "Fantasy Hero" means gishing.

(Oddly enough, my introduction to fantasy gaming, FFIX, contains one of the few FF protagonists who isn't a gish.)

[Kane0]

People, by and large, tend towards efficiency and self-sufficiency. A gish is symbolic of being good at two things where normally you would have to pick only one, which is where its main charm lies. The idea of being able to do more than average is often a driving force, and roleplaying games are no exception.

[Spore]

Four Reasons:

1) Playing a straight Wizard makes the game incredibly meta and boring. When you play a fighter you describe a cool move and get immediate reward. If you play a wizard, most you can roleplay is *mumbles a few words and paints arcane runes into the air* and then you fling a small set of rules at the DM. It's like real life combat if lawyers did it.

2) Winning as a semi-capable fighter makes your character more relatable, your success more epic. Ever wonder why the heroes are mostly mundanes of undefined level? Why the evil overlords are almost always rich and/or high level casters? Because it takes no ****ing visible effort to kill someone with a snip of a finger. It's just rules that protect a high level fighter from spontaneously dying from being exploded by a 3rd level spell.

3) Suspension of disbelief goes only so far before your "rule senses" kick in. How can your character effortlessly fly while I have to make RIDICULOUS Acrobatics/Jump checks to jump a part of the height you're currently residing at?

4) A strong reason on to why your character does NOT fall into the mold for Big Stupid Fighter. I have put points into Int and it's my main spellcasting stat. For some reason a Cleric can have Int 6 and is still not really perceived as mentally ill. Memes like that can destroy entire character concepts. "I am playing this smart tactician and..." "You have the lowest Int with 12. "You are our dumbest character. BSF, hurr durr."

[Amphetryon]

Because I want something to do in every encounter and at the same time I want to be able to wade into combat and bludgeon/slash the enemy into submission with muscle and cold steel.

[Callin]

Because at my table we need to be self sufficient. Either my party is full of selfish bastards or so low op that its not funny or both haha. So i like to be able to cover all of my bases with class features or spells and not rely on items since the dm hardly ever gives out much.

[neonchameleon]

Its still just because people want a concept that's somewhere between the wizard and the fighter.

I'm not entirely sure what the concept of the wizard is. Illusionists, yes. Summoners, yes. Wizard? Far too broad. And even Gandalf used a sword.


I only used the cleric as an example because that's literally what it started as.

Actually, no. The cleric started off as van Helsing in a Dave Arneson-run game where the evil vampire PC was stomping face and the good guys needed someone to deal with Sir Fang (yes, that was the vampire's name).

[argol228]

I do it for purely thematic reasons. Some would cring when I say I play a Dex build Magus with a focus on fire and lightning spells (and any that can be fluffed reasonably as fire or lightning) and *Gasp* Cestus

Essentially I play a fire bender. I used to run it as monk/sorc until I found Magus

[ArqArturo]

Because I love the idea of fireballing a troll with my greatsword.

As unoptimized as GISHes are, as more powerful as CoDzillas are, there is always the wish to wield arcane might and steel.

I've played warpriests before, and combat druids, and every time the rest of the party bemoans that I don't heal them.

[Petrocorus]

(I mean, come on, when's the last time you saw an Artificer or Incarnum-user in standard fiction? :smalltongue: )

You mean, beside Iron Man and Reed Richards? And some science hero (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceHero) guy, including maybe, The Doctor.


People, by and large, tend towards efficiency and self-sufficiency. A gish is symbolic of being good at two things where normally you would have to pick only one, which is where its main charm lies. The idea of being able to do more than average is often a driving force, and roleplaying games are no exception.

Agreed, the incentive to be self sufficient, to be good at everything, or at least not to be bad at something important, is really strong. And many fictional or historical hero are like this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RenaissanceMan).

As for me, i think the point is, as other have said, most of our heroes in fiction, specially in med-fan, are swordsman or warrior of some sort. It is very ingrained in our culture.
Consequently, many player want to play a warrior, or at least want to play a character who can fight.

So the point of a gish is, for a part, that player who play a wizard, want a wizard who can use a sword and fight for himself.

But for the main part, for many player, the point is not to play a wizard who can fight, but to play a warrior who can actually be good at fighting and can do things outside of combat. What most of fighting classes, notably Fighter, Paladin and Barbarian cannot do.
The whole point of the sorcadin build for example, is to build a paladin who can stand his ground against CR appropriate monster. Contrary to the Paladin class.

[Talionis]

Because Fighters don't have many options and spells do things better than mundanes can. The game isn't balanced for a Fighter. Past a certain level you become an anchor if you are simply a Fighter.

I actually like low magic campaigns and in such, mundanes are much more fun. E6 campaigns also make being arcane more fun.

But if you start getting up past level 6 challenges become more than how much damage can I do in one hit. You also need ways to protect yourself from a lot of different things that you won't be able to.

I want to play a Fighter, but I don't want to be bored to death.

[skyth]

I'm a multi-class junkie...One of the reasons is that I don't feel the need to be the best at anything, but I want to have something to do in almost any situation.

As a Gish, (Or any multi-class), I have more options available to me for things to do.

[Seharvepernfan]

I like characters that can kinda do it all, if not as well as others. Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16634330&postcount=19) the first thing I'd play in a 3.5 by-the-books campaign. He can do a lot of things: fight (melee or ranged), sneak, freerun, traps/locks, track/navigate, cast (buff, defend, debuff, damage, port/shift, sneak, locate, disguise, etc), climb/swim, sage, perceive, and be really hard to hit. He can't do all those things as well as a more focused character, but he's "good" at all of them. If I dropped Necro for Ench, I could add "deal with people" to that list; as it stands, he can persuade/bluff/intimidate to a relatively small degree if he uses a particular spell. About the only thing he can't do is heal, and that's because I didn't give him any UMD.

I guess I just like being competent at several things and having options, I don't want to have to rely only on spells to get things done, and I just plain like the concept. I want to always be able to participate in any situation, rather than be the best at a specific thing. Anytime I make a character, what sticks out most is what that character can't do, rather than what he can do.