Players without Money - solutions?

[Theomniadept]

One problem I seem to be a damnable magnet for is DMs who are just repulsed by the idea of players having money. I am in my third 3.5 game where a DM just seems to not want to give players money.

First of all, a word to DMs: You are not making the game harder by not giving money. Here is what you are doing.

1. Limiting resources. A player cannot just 'play better'. A player will need certain things to just play the game, and at the end of the day if the guy roleplaying a demonslayer doesn't have the cash to afford a sword that specializes in slaying demons then you will pit him against a demon and watch him die. As a DM, you are going to fault the player when this is your bad DMing.

2. Number 1 has a consequence; everyone's new characters will all come back as spellcasters. Spellcasters just dominate no-cash campaigns, and all you'e done is take magic out of the hands of non-mages and made sure the tier lisst devolves into Tier 1 and Tier Trash.

3. You are making Vow of Poverty preferable to money. Let me be clear; since when is homelessness preferable to being able to buy what you want? If a naked hobo is more powerful than the battle-hardened veteran you are doing something terribly wrong.

4. You as the DM cannot use half the things in the game. Nothing with DR can be used if the players never have the resources to overcome it. There is no 'increased difficulty' when you don't give money, there's just a plain yes or no when it comes to a player's ability to overcome DR.

5. You discourage roleplaying and encourage heavy min/maxing. If the only viable melee fighter is the charging leap attacking Frenzied Berserker then do not be surprised when the player's next character finally overcomes DR by dealing 500 damage. You technically were given an option and chose poorly.

With that out of the way, has anyone else had this problem? How do you convince a DM of this? I hate to say it but every DM I have ever played with has fallen under the terrible idea that they, as DM, should have final say on literally everything, in which case the game is no longer D&D but rather Bribe The DM, and it always leads to the inevitable inability to playanything that doesn't do magic.

[Grozomah]

Yes it happens and yes, it's wrong. I deal with it either by playing caster or something along the lines of a Water Orc Warblade Übercharger with vital recovery (argued that encounter lasts 10 mins and VR can therefore be used every 10 minutes) and animal devotion to top it off.

For some reason I didn't have that many problems in that campaign ...

[Sith_Happens]

The one loot-stingy DM I had, I just explained more or less everything you just said and he corrected the issue. Of course, his reason for initially limiting things was that he usually runs GURPS Supers and so was blissfully unaware that "the clothes make the hero" was ever a thing in table-top unless you're deliberately trying to play Iron Man. Based on his responses to my arguments it was sort of a rude awakening for him, but he begrudgingly accepted it.

Basically, if your DM's doing this out of ignorance rather than malice you have a chance that simply correcting the ignorance will work. On the other hand, if this is someone who does know that the treasure tables are a thing and thinks that throwing them out is somehow "better"... good luck with that.

[ChaoticDitz]

It depends on the campaign; low-wealth and low-magic are both very real and quite popular playstyles.

The more common problem, though, is that many inexperienced DMs make two huge mistakes; one, they adhere religiously to the CR system, thinking that all parties built with a grain of common sense will mold properly to the very-inaccurate-and-not-subjective-enough CR system, and that they should use the same guidelines for treasure regardless of number and intensity/importance of encounters, leaving them not even realizing their players are underfunded and fighting encounters that are in fact unrealistically difficult for them.

[Theomniadept]

Well, I talked to the DM and to speak quite frankly, he believe he is somehow more informed than years of community analysis of the 3.5 system. I posed the simple scenario: A flesh golem has gone berserk and is smashing the town. Our party needs to defeat it.

With money:
Wizard casts Grease, golem falls.
Dread Necromancer summons undead to tank and chip away at golem
Two sorcerers pelt golem with magic
Paladin (that's me) charges with adamantine lance
Ranger nocks adamantine arrows and fires
Rogue slaps a demolition crystal onto his rapier and sneak-attacks the golem.

Without money:
Wizard casts Grease, golem falls.
Dread Necromancer summons undead to tank and chip away at golem
Two sorcerers pelt golem with magic
Paladin, Ranger, and Rogue do no damage and can only function as momentary distractions while other characters get to have fun.

Here was his response: Paladin looks around the smashed buildings and finds an iron pole, he then walks up the stairs and jumps down, plunging the pole into the golem due to his velocity. Ranger shoots an arrow at a nearby structure causing things to fall on top of the golem. Rogue takes rope and begins tying the golem down.

I cringed as I explained that DR/adamantine applies to eveyrthing. And how a single arrow cannot sunder an entire building, and that jumping onto an enemy with an iron pole is 100% less effective than just swinging an iron sword, and it takes longer and does not do more damage unless my character (factoring total weight) jumps from 70 feet in the air and suffers 7d6 fall damage to deal an additional 1d6 to a golem who would still take zero damage.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, seems like the DM is expecting you to come up with these creative solutions that no one who knows the rules would ever think of (because the game doesn't work that way). And they don't seem to make sense in reality either -- that arrow knocking down a building is the weirdest, though going for an iron pole rather than just using a sword is odd too.

I've seen roughly three sorts of DMs like this.

There are the kind that expect you to "be creative" even when it doesn't make sense, and will go with those ideas.

And there are the kind that have a particular odd-ball solution in mind and will either let you flounder about wondering why you don't see the "obvious" or will railroad you towards that solution.

And lastly the kind that have no idea how the game works in terms of balance, but can't handle players having options. Maybe they do railroading, maybe they can't think on their feet, maybe they take monster defeats personally, maybe something else.

It could be a combination of factors.

Weird thing is, while WBL matters, there's often not a huge difference if you have 50% more WBL than you should, since a lot of items get more expensive followed an x^2 law. So it really shouldn't be numerical bonuses that cause a problem...must be other items. I'd think. Or maybe he just doesn't understand how magic items work. Point is, a DM doesn't have to be too worried about WBL as long as they are in the ballpark. The game isn't going to blow up in their face even if people have twice as much money as they should.

[Alent]

Here was his response: Paladin looks around the smashed buildings and finds an iron pole, he then walks up the stairs and jumps down, plunging the pole into the golem due to his velocity. Ranger shoots an arrow at a nearby structure causing things to fall on top of the golem. Rogue takes rope and begins tying the golem down.

Sounds like this guy's used to a dramatic system like fudge and not a mechanical wargame like D&D.

If you have a town around, you can always pick a profitable(ha) profession and make profession checks for income.

[Arbane]

Sounds like this guy's used to a dramatic system like fudge and not a mechanical wargame like D&D.


So start trying to rack up those Stunt Bonuses.

[Theomniadept]

The problem here is that he's quite literally stuck thinking that we're simply not using ingenuity. I told him that all he is doing in ensuring that we can't use anything like that. It all reeks of adventure game syndrome. It's King Graham throwing cheese in the magic doohickey.

[Darrin]

Sounds like this guy's used to a dramatic system like fudge and not a mechanical wargame like D&D.


Reminds me of Feng Shui. That kind of creativity can be hard to pull off in D&D. If you're really clever, you can slip a few fast ones past the DM. For example, when the Paladin discovers that iron bars don't hurt golems, he could search the rubble for an adamantine bar. If the DM allows such a thing to be found, then after the battle you can sell the bar for several thousand GP or however much it weighs.

Take the Ancestral Relic feat (BoED) ASAP. This let's you convert *anything* with a monetary value into a custom magic item at a one-to-one ratio. And it's not an [Exalted] feat, so you don't have to be an ultra goody-two-shoes.

If you have a half-orc in the party, dipping into Menacing Brute (Races of Destiny) for Resourceful Search (Ex) could be interesting. 1/day find a nonmagical item up to 200 GP. Well, ok, you need to be in a metropolis to go that high, but a small city would be good enough to find a Chaos Flask (Planar Handbook) or jug of Shapesand (Sandstorm). Even in a hamlet, 20 GP of trade goods per day is probably a better way to make money than Perform checks.

[Psyren]

You can do a low- or even zero-wealth campaign for flavor purposes if you want to. Just be sure not to let it impact the mechanics too much.

For instance, say you don't have defensive items like Cloak of Resistance in your campaign. The problem is that, past a certain level, the game expects you to have X resistance bonus to your saves, or you'll get steamrolled by every monster, trap and enemy spell out there.

But there are in fact alternate means to get the necessary buffs onto your players without adding currency or magic-mart to your setting. One great way is with magical locations - places the players have to visit to buff up. The advantage here is that the buffs typically last for an entire year, so you can get through an entire campaign with just one such visit. You can also make the buffs supernatural, i.e. undispellable.

Another way is to make use of temporary buffs, like an NPC spellcaster who happens to know the defensive spells the party needs. So your players may not have a Cloak of Resistance, but Mortimer the friendly abjurer from the mage college in the city you're trying to save might have researched a variety of defensive magics and was assigned to accompany you by the archmage. He's hopeless in a fight (thus the PCs still get to shine) but his defensive magics not only allow him to buff the party, but also to keep himself out of harm's way so that he is not influencing a fight directly. Similarly, Holly the pacifist healer from the local temple might accompany the party to tend their wounds and remove status ailments.

A more extreme tactic that combines the two approaches above is possession. Rather than send a physical spellcaster with the party or require them to go somewhere, have extraplanar entities come to them and ride around in their heads. You can represent these passengers by applying a template to each of the PCs that just happens to have all the buffs they would normally be able to get from WBL. You can even assign amusing drawbacks to having these interlopers around, similar to Binder influences. As a bonus source of conflict, you can make the possessing entities have different or even opposing morals to the PCs.


TL;DR you can have a moneyless campaign just fine - but you should still follow WBL guidelines in terms of what buffs/protections the PCs are expected to have at any given level, and devise alternate ways the PCs can obtain these benefits without wealth.

[Theomniadept]

Oh, I understand that very well. No player with one million gold did anything; a player with a million gold worth of equipment and buffs did everything.

I told the DM this. He ignored it. It seems I must battle with an obstinate DM once more. Honestly, I just wish I could play a normal 3.5 game but it seems every DM in my state is a moron.

[HunterOfJello]

If I was in that position, I would appeal to two specific things.

First I would say that the game isn't fun. The DM may think the game is cool or more interesting in the way that he has designed it, but it isn't. Find out what specific thing he is attempting to accomplish and then inform him that there are either better ways to accomplish that (make suggestions and try to be positive throughout the discussion) or that his design has simply created a game that is not fun for all of the players.

The biggest failure a DM can ever make is creating a game that is not fun. There is no point in creating or playing a game that is not enjoyable for the people involved. Tell the DM that the denial of basic Wealth By Level (for melee characters especially) turns the entire game into an exercise of "what build can i make that doesn't use money?" and that you don't enjoy that.

Ultimately, I would also consider changing characters into one that doesn't need wealth to be effective and generally enjoyable in the game. I know that sucks, but if your DM is an idiot, you can't find another one, and you're not willing to become the DM yourself, then that's what is left to you.

[Fitz10019]

Oh, I understand that very well. No player with one million gold did anything; a player with a million gold worth of equipment and buffs did everything.

I told the DM this. He ignored it. It seems I must battle with an obstinate DM once more. Honestly, I just wish I could play a normal 3.5 game but it seems every DM in my state is a moron.

Okay, but I bet your original goal was to have fun. So ask your DM about 2 or 3 other situations, ones that the party actually faced this time, and get his idea of what you 'should have' done. With those examples (and read up on Feng Shui), try this scary 'being creative' approach he expects of you. It may not be 'real D&D' but you might find the freedom of creativity fun once you get the hang of it. And he might relax his grip on the gp once he's getting the 'creativity' he expects.

Sometimes you have to give a 'lil to get a 'lil.

[Drachasor]

Okay, but I bet your original goal was to have fun. So ask your DM about 2 or 3 other situations, ones that the party actually faced this time, and get his idea of what you 'should have' done. With those examples (and read up on Feng Shui), try this scary 'being creative' approach he expects of you. It may not be 'real D&D' but you might find the freedom of creativity fun once you get the hang of it. And he might relax his grip on the gp once he's getting the 'creativity' he expects.

Sometimes you have to give a 'lil to get a 'lil.

The only problem I have with the DM's "creative" approach in this instance is that it really doesn't make any sense. An arrow collapsing a building? A pipe being more effective than a sword? (I'll by jumping down and using the moment for extra damage, but the pipe bit is odd).

I think it would make it hard to maintain your willing suspension of disbelief. Almost seems like whatever zany plan you come up with works. Then again, maybe none of them work due to die rolls and arbitrary difficulties. Overall I'd think a non-D&D system would work better or at least having a sketch of the mechanics and made-up system that DM was working with.

[SinsI]

He might be denying the players normal WBL in order to curb the optimizers.
Wizard without tonnes of gold will have a very hard time affording the spells to break your campaign.

On the player part, it is best to switch to classes that don't need lots of money - like Druid or Totemist - and maybe even grab a Vow of Powerty to boot.

[Psyren]

Wizard without tonnes of gold will have a very hard time affording the spells to break your campaign.

Thing is, Wizards can break the game using just the free spells they get from leveling. They don't even need to take spells with expensive components.

[Juntao112]

Okay, but I bet your original goal was to have fun. So ask your DM about 2 or 3 other situations, ones that the party actually faced this time, and get his idea of what you 'should have' done. With those examples (and read up on Feng Shui), try this scary 'being creative' approach he expects of you. It may not be 'real D&D' but you might find the freedom of creativity fun once you get the hang of it. And he might relax his grip on the gp once he's getting the 'creativity' he expects.

Sometimes you have to give a 'lil to get a 'lil.

http://i.imgur.com/fAWJbb1.jpg

[Theomniadept]

That is exactly it; he wants to squeeze blood from a stone. I don't know why he wants Michael Bay physics combined with Adventure Game Syndrome.

It all reeks of King's Quest V. In that game there's a point where you as King Graham have Mordak's Wand, your friend's wand, and through experimenting you find a magic machine that automatically places the wands on different pedestals. You know his wand is charged and yours is dead. The narrator says it needs to be activated. You have things like a key that unlocked a door previously, a hairpin you used to pick a lock, an antimagic amulet that is drained, a crystal that deflected lightning, but the item that makes the machine work is a piece of moldy cheese.

At least in adventure games the puzzles can be solved by brute force by combining every object with every location. In D&D you need to guess the correct object, location, and verb, and even if it makes total sense the DM has 'their' way they want the puzzle done.

The best way I plan to tell him to possibly run things is to make an object with no preconceived notions on how we will get around it. Maybe use a generator to generate a number of random object descriptions and have them scattered in the room or dungeon or whatnot and just let us try and figure a workable solution.

[Alent]

That is exactly it; he wants to squeeze blood from a stone. I don't know why he wants Michael Bay physics combined with Adventure Game Syndrome.

...

The best way I plan to tell him to possibly run things is to make an object with no preconceived notions on how we will get around it. Maybe use a generator to generate a number of random object descriptions and have them scattered in the room or dungeon or whatnot and just let us try and figure a workable solution.

I'm suddenly glad I never played the King's Quest games. :smallsigh: I'm sure if this guy ran a Monkey Island campaign he'd expect one of you to have a level of chicken infested commoner and a spell component pouch as your only way to get a Rubber Chicken with a squeaky pulley in the middle.

Based on what he said, tho', I wouldn't be sure he has an "exact idea" of how you should get around any given puzzle so much as a "general idea that can bend for creativity". It certainly seems like he has an exact idea, but if you're determined to make this work, it's worth testing the waters to see if it CAN work or not.

I hesitated to mention this since I really see this as an unhealthy behavior workaround when the correct answer is addressing the unhealthy behavior OOC... but if things continue down this track you need to start coming up with bats**t crazy stuff that runs on rule of cool, and start writing down all of his reactions to it.

Eventually, you'll find a pattern in his previous rulings and use that to figure out what game you're actually playing, and hopefully have fun playing it. Maybe find the actual tabletop version of the game you're playing, because it isn't D&D, and introduce him to it. (Fudge, fate-core, etc. there are plenty of storytelling games, I just don't know them since my own group errs towards hitting things with big blunt claymores for XP, gold, glory, and god only knows what else those murderhobos are thinking.)

You might also just consider swapping roles with him for a few weeks. You DM, have him play, teach him how the rules actually work.

[Drachasor]

That is exactly it; he wants to squeeze blood from a stone. I don't know why he wants Michael Bay physics combined with Adventure Game Syndrome.

It all reeks of King's Quest V. In that game there's a point where you as King Graham have Mordak's Wand, your friend's wand, and through experimenting you find a magic machine that automatically places the wands on different pedestals. You know his wand is charged and yours is dead. The narrator says it needs to be activated. You have things like a key that unlocked a door previously, a hairpin you used to pick a lock, an antimagic amulet that is drained, a crystal that deflected lightning, but the item that makes the machine work is a piece of moldy cheese.

At least in adventure games the puzzles can be solved by brute force by combining every object with every location. In D&D you need to guess the correct object, location, and verb, and even if it makes total sense the DM has 'their' way they want the puzzle done.

The best way I plan to tell him to possibly run things is to make an object with no preconceived notions on how we will get around it. Maybe use a generator to generate a number of random object descriptions and have them scattered in the room or dungeon or whatnot and just let us try and figure a workable solution.

Are you sure he has adventure game solutions in mind? Or would he accept any zany scheme? Because the later is much more workable as a game if any sort of creativity is acceptable.

Honestly there are a lot of games that support this better than 3.X. Heck, 4E works better for this with relatively easy modifications -- since the balance is relatively tight, it is easy to have players make up moves -- the default game just really, really, really discourages it, but you could make it so almost all moves are made up on the spot.

3.5 though. I am not sure how you'd adjust this precisely. And restricting money is a bad way to go without modifying things so you don't need money for much. Off-hand, I'd think default stat increases (like Vow of Poverty does), Gestalt, and then Action Points that are used to auto-crit or the like when a crazy scheme is used. But it would be more work than just that.

Ironically though, this is a time where 4E would do things a lot better. So much easier to adjust for this kind of play. Yeah...weird. That's assuming you didn't pick up something like FATE or another one of the suggestions.

Anyhow, does he only have particular solutions in mind or is any creative solution ok?

[Boci]

I'm running a low wealth game right now, as in my 6th level players have no permanent magical items. To make up for this I give them inherent bonuses, a heritage and take the above into account when planning encounters.

[animewatcha]

All else fails, whole party re-rolls as casters and they forcibly get more than WBL by locate city bombing.

[Abaddona]

Except DM then forces you to track every ounce of bat guano you have because "this is great fix for caster power" and when you take "Eschew Materials" every dungeon suddenly becomes Dead Magic Zone because "I am DM and I can create my world hovewer I like".

[animewatcha]

Won't matter as much for casters as they have spells that don't need material components. Dungeons in no magic zones? Hello next city that will be locate city bomb'ed. Keep track of every ounce of bat guano they have? Okay, players get to claim they have x item of power because it was never stated it wasn't there before. Also, dead magic zone'd dungeon? Well there goes many abilities of many bombs. So seal the dungeon via dynamiting it crapton of times ( with mats gotten from stores that they looted from locate city bombing ). Many enemies require air for breathing. What doesn't that comes out of dungeon ( if ever ) is technically out of dead magic zone and gets magic's to heck and back.

[SinsI]

Thing is, Wizards can break the game using just the free spells they get from leveling. They don't even need to take spells with expensive components.

No scrolls for situationally used spells really hinders their ability to do that.
No metamagic rods reduces power level quite a bit as well.
No +6 Stat item does that, too, by reducing DCs and bonus spell slots.

Wizards become T2 like Sorcerers, only with a bit more spells known but no spontaneous casting and fewer spell slots.

[Rubik]

No scrolls for situationally used spells really hinders their ability to do that.
No metamagic rods reduces power level quite a bit as well.
No +6 Stat item does that, too, by reducing DCs and bonus spell slots.

Wizards become T2 like Sorcerers, only with a bit more spells known but no spontaneous casting and fewer spell slots.Druids, clerics, easy bake wizards, psions, sorcerers, and artificers deal with this more than handily.

And even without the "easy bake" part, wizards are still able to do their thing regardless of whether the DM likes it or not. They just have to be more careful in their spell acquisition.

[The Grue]

Except DM then forces you to track every ounce of bat guano you have because "this is great fix for caster power" and when you take "Eschew Materials" every dungeon suddenly becomes Dead Magic Zone because "I am DM and I can create my world hovewer I like".

Which ultimately ends in the players walking out of the room.

So if you're going to go that route, skip the intermediary bit and just walk out. You aren't going to beat the DM at D&D, so don't try. If he refuses to run a game that's fun, leave.

[Artillery]

Except DM then forces you to track every ounce of bat guano you have because "this is great fix for caster power" and when you take "Eschew Materials" every dungeon suddenly becomes Dead Magic Zone because "I am DM and I can create my world hovewer I like".

Then everyone switches over to Psionics because they have no material components, somatic components, or verbal components. With some doing Spell to Power erudites because when you want to leave the game but you'd rather make a point and break the game with your tier.

Other options for acquiring wealth. Spells that create commodities. Did you know that salt is worth its weight in silver?

Level 7 Wizard takes Wall of Salt. Salt has a commodity price of 5gp per pound in the players handbook and can be directly traded without exchanging it. At minimum caster level to cast Wall of Salt it creates a 5ft tall, 35ft long, 7 inch thick wall made of salt. That is 102.08 cubic feet of salt. Sodium chloride has a density of 135.47. That gives us 13929lbs of salt. Giving us 69645gp per casting. No work needs to done. This has innate value.

At lvl 8 that becomes 90313gp per cast for a level 4 spellslot.

You could also do this earlier, a scroll of a 4th level spell is only 700gp. You get 100x your investment back.

[Rubik]

Wall of Salt.You might as well rename the spell Wall of Wealth.


You could also do this earlier, a scroll of a 4th level spell is only 700gp. You get 100x your investment back.Any wizard can take Wall of Salt as one of their standard level-up spells, meaning they literally get it for free.

[SinsI]

Druids, clerics, easy bake wizards, psions, sorcerers, and artificers deal with this more than handily.

And even without the "easy bake" part, wizards are still able to do their thing regardless of whether the DM likes it or not. They just have to be more careful in their spell acquisition.

Common List of problems solved by wealth:

Flight
Domination/Divinations
Stun/Daze/Fear
Illusions/Invisibility
Miss Chances
Tactical teleportation
Death Effects/negative levels
Grappling
Extra storage space
Dispel Magic
Initiative
Special Senses

That's 17 different aspects of the game. Ideally, you want to both protect yourself and to affect opponents with them - so you need ~30 of them to really break the game.
In mid levels, the wizard with no money has 12-16 appropriate spells, leaving plenty of weak points.

[Rubik]

Common List of problems solved by wealth:

Flight
Domination/Divinations
Stun/Daze/Fear
Illusions/Invisibility
Miss Chances
Tactical teleportation
Death Effects/negative levels
Grappling
Extra storage space
Dispel Magic
Initiative
Special Senses

That's 17 different aspects of the game. Ideally, you want to both protect yourself and to affect opponents with them - so you need all 34 of them to really break the game.There are plenty of spells for all of those problems, quite a few of which are of permanent or instantaneous duration. Planar Binding, for instance, can lead to fixing every single one of those things.

And don't forget that casters can easily, so very easily make their own wealth and magic items. And even if they literally don't have down time to craft, that's not exactly an impediment if a T1 or T2 caster doesn't want it to be. And flowing-time demiplanes and infinite Wishes aren't the only ways, either.


In mid levels, the wizard with no money has 12-16 appropriate spells, leaving plenty of weak points.Easy-bake wizards (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9738.msg329051#msg329051) gain 6 spells known per level, plus extra bonus spells at level 1. That's more than enough to give you any spell you really want, even if you don't gain anything else. You don't even need to be particularly frugal.

[MrNobody]

Currently, I, as a DM, i put my players in a similar situation: they have gold and have plenty of valuable items (they go around with a shrunk pure gold statue of enormous size), but they cannot make use of them.
They are now exploring an homebrewed Xen'drik where nearly all the societies they meet are undevoloped and don't make use of gold in their trades. Groups wealth so is useless. They can get something exchanging goods, but even in this case they have problems: all those tribes are illitterate, so no scrolls, spellbooks and other written objects.
Other similar restrictions prevent the group from getting weapons&armor made of special materials (except ironwood and chitin), rods, staves....

How does the group (15th level) get all the magic item he needs? I simply accept requests. Since i want my players to have fun and build their Pcs at their best, I told them to ask me what they need. They come out with specifical objets that i use as hints of their needs. When the resources of the tribes they met allow me to give them exactly what they asked for, I give it to them. Otherwise i go for something else (magic, or even homebrew alchemical items) that matches their needs.
Recently, for example, the paladin asked me for an adamantine shield or something else to get some DR. Since the tribe they are now "visiting" hasn't this kind of things, i homebrewed an alchemical mix of clay that naturally has a percentage of adamantine powder in it. Applied like an oil, it give DR 2/- for 1 minute. I'll give him something more powerful when the situation get better.

To help me in this kind of "item-giving" comes the fact that Xen'drik is full of ancient ruins where i can put some special item once in while, expecially those my player pointed out in their request.

Maybe you can try to convince your DM to have a similar approach, even if i don't think it would accept if all the things your wrote are true.

[Artillery]

You might as well rename the spell Wall of Wealth.

Any wizard can take Wall of Salt as one of their standard level-up spells, meaning they literally get it for free.

Wall of Salt, Wall of Silver. They both have the same density of value.

I meant get a scroll of it.
Be a level 2 caster with the feat Arcane Mastery to take 10 on caster level checks.
Use your WBL of 900gp to by a scroll of wall of salt for 700gp. Utterly break your WBL from now on. If possible spending all his 900WBl to get a caster lvl 9 version. Gets either 69k or 114k gp of commodity value.

[SinsI]

Easy-bake wizards (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9738.msg329051#msg329051) gain 6 spells known per level, plus extra bonus spells at level 1. That's more than enough to give you any spell you really want, even if you don't gain anything else. You don't even need to be particularly frugal.
Collegiate Wizard turns 2 learned spells per level into 4 per level. Where do they get the remaining 2?
And do yo have the slots to have enough of them prepared at all the times, in sufficient numbers?
Planar Binding is a really poorly suited way to solve those problems.

[Boci]

There are plenty of spells for all of those problems, quite a few of which are of permanent or instantaneous duration. Planar Binding, for instance, can lead to fixing every single one of those things.

And don't forget that casters can easily, so very easily make their own wealth and magic items. And even if they literally don't have down time to craft, that's not exactly an impediment if a T1 or T2 caster doesn't want it to be. And flowing-time demiplanes and infinite Wishes aren't the only ways, either.

Easy-bake wizards (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9738.msg329051#msg329051) gain 6 spells known per level, plus extra bonus spells at level 1. That's more than enough to give you any spell you really want, even if you don't gain anything else. You don't even need to be particularly frugal.

The problem is you are assuming that a Dm who has introduced a houserule to modifier WBL will then let this fly because its RAW. And just in advance: anyone who thinks this is oberoni: you are wrong.

[Karnith]

Collegiate Wizard turns 2 learned spells per level into 4 per level. Where do they get the remaining 2?
One additional spell per level from Elven Generalist, and another from Aerenal Arcanist.

Since the latter is setting-specific, the standard is usually 5 spells per level. Possibly with an additional Arcane Domain spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) known every time you gain access to a new spell level.

[Rubik]

Collegiate Wizard turns 2 learned spells per level into 4 per level. Where do they get the remaining 2?Aerenal Arcanist: +1 spell known per level.

Elf Generalist Wizard: +1 spell known per level.

[Darrin]

Level 7 Wizard takes Wall of Salt. Salt has a commodity price of 5gp per pound in the players handbook and can be directly traded without exchanging it. At minimum caster level to cast Wall of Salt it creates a 5ft tall, 35ft long, 7 inch thick wall made of salt. That is 102.08 cubic feet of salt. Sodium chloride has a density of 135.47. That gives us 13929lbs of salt. Giving us 69645gp per casting. No work needs to done. This has innate value.


According to ASTM, salt weighs about 72 to 80 lbs per cubic foot, depending on moisture content and the size of the crystals. 102 cubic feet x 72 lbs/ft^3 = 7344 lbs. 7344 lbs x 5 GP = 36730 GP.

Water to acid (Stormwrack) is available at 5th level, that gets you about 3000 GP of acid per casting, or 1500 GP if you sell it for 50% market price.


Okay, but I bet your original goal was to have fun. So ask your DM about 2 or 3 other situations, ones that the party actually faced this time, and get his idea of what you 'should have' done. With those examples (and read up on Feng Shui), try this scary 'being creative' approach he expects of you. It may not be 'real D&D' but you might find the freedom of creativity fun once you get the hang of it. And he might relax his grip on the gp once he's getting the 'creativity' he expects.

Sometimes you have to give a 'lil to get a 'lil.

Good advice, but Feng Shui is deliberately designed to be a cinematic style game. In Feng Shui, "I hit him with my sword" and "I leap out the window, bounce off an awning, land on a fruit cart, grab the tongs from the hot dog vendor, and stab him in the uvula!" has the same chance of success. The rules are structured so that describing crazy action-movie-style stunts doesn't give you a penalty.

D&D isn't designed that way. If you try to pull some of that Feng Shui stuff, then you run into things like improvised weapon penalties, Damage Reduction, etc. That's not to say it can't be done with a cooperative DM who likes to handwave this sort of stuff, but I'm not getting a clear sense of how the DM adjudicates these things.

If the DM's game world does follow this sort of action movie/cartoon physics, then... odd things can happen. For example, the Ranger that shoots an arrow that causes part of a building to collapse. After that I might try pointing out to the local businesses that "Say, these buildings look kinda fragile. I mean, look what this Ranger here did with one arrow. It'd be an awful shame, you know... if anything 'happened' to such fragile buildings. Maybe you should consider donating to a 'neighborhood upkeep fund', my good shopkeeper sir!"

[SinsI]

One additional spell per level from Elven Generalist
+1 Highest spell slot and +1 spell learned per level in exchange for nothing?!

Why would any DM allow that atrocity?

[Rubik]

+1 Highest spell slot and +1 spell learned per level in exchange for nothing?!

Why would any DM allow that atrocity?Because -2 Con makes elves horrible at being wizards (and basically everything else), so the designers threw them a bone to make up for it?

[animewatcha]

The wizard is locked out of specializing in things. Such as master specialist, force missile mage, etc. Also if they don't get reincarnated ( in the off chance that they die with no version of resurrection ) or similar back into an elf or get baleful polymorph'ed ( don't know everything about shapechange, polymorph, alter self, etc. ), then racial stuffs goes out the window. Except domain wizard.

[Artillery]

According to ASTM, salt weighs about 72 to 80 lbs per cubic foot, depending on moisture content and the size of the crystals. 102 cubic feet x 72 lbs/ft^3 = 7344 lbs. 7344 lbs x 5 GP = 36730 GP.

Water to acid (Stormwrack) is available at 5th level, that gets you about 3000 GP of acid per casting, or 1500 GP if you sell it for 50% market price.


Can I get a citation on that? I was looking at the density of sodium chloride, aka rock salt, for mine. Not looking at granular ones because it makes a wall of solid salt. Are you using the density for bulk salt.

Sodium Chloride has a density of 2.16 grams/cm^3 which is 134.84 lb/foot^3

[Psyren]

Because -2 Con makes elves horrible at being wizards (and basically everything else), so the designers threw them a bone to make up for it?

Horrible? As the only +Int race in core (gray elf), they're pretty damn good wizards even with the penalty. Once you get False Life you'll barely notice the deficit.

(They make good psions too of course, and get False Life Vigor even earlier.)

[Rubik]

Horrible? As the only +Int race in core (gray elf), they're pretty damn good wizards even with the penalty. Once you get False Life you'll barely notice the deficit.

(They make good psions too of course, and get False Life Vigor even earlier.)But gray elf and fire elf are the only really decent ones, and none of the others are much worth bothering with, that I've seen. "Regular" elves are pretty terrible, overall.

[Psyren]

But gray elf and fire elf are the only really decent ones, and none of the others are much worth bothering with, that I've seen. "Regular" elves are pretty terrible, overall.

Right, but both of those get -2 Con too. So clearly it's possible to be a decent, even good/great, wizard even with that drawback.

I'm not saying that regular elves are good - just that -2 Con isn't a dealbreaker on its own.

[Artillery]

Horrible? As the only +Int race in core (gray elf), they're pretty damn good wizards even with the penalty. Once you get False Life you'll barely notice the deficit.

(They make good psions too of course, and get False Life Vigor even earlier.)

Apply Dragonborn to Gray Elf. Congrats you get most likely wings and and get -2 str, +2 int.

Though if your a wizard, lesser tieflings are popular. Just like lesser aasimar for clerics.

[Yuki Akuma]

+1 Highest spell slot and +1 spell learned per level in exchange for nothing?!

Why would any DM allow that atrocity?

Because it forces you to be an elf, so you can't be the greatest Wizard race out there: gnomes.

[Psyren]

Apply Dragonborn to Gray Elf. Congrats you get most likely wings and and get -2 str, +2 int.

If we're going that route I'd much prefer Necropolitan Gray Elf to make my Con irrelevant. But I was just saying that -2 Con isn't going to hurt them any.

[Abaddona]

Again - if DM doesn't want you to have resources, then you won't have any. Wall of Salt? Congrats - you must find different buyer for every ounce - and it's assuming that he will not tell you flat out "no". And even if he will let this fly - guess what kind of encounter your next fight will be? Because I'm betting on "leaving you naked in the middle of nowhere" kind. Destroying cities in response for such stupid restrictions? Well, say hello to this band of epic casters with full WBL whose entire reason of existence is to force you to obey.

[Darrin]

Can I get a citation on that? I was looking at the density of sodium chloride, aka rock salt, for mine. Not looking at granular ones because it makes a wall of solid salt. Are you using the density for bulk salt.

Sodium Chloride has a density of 2.16 grams/cm^3 which is 134.84 lb/foot^3

http://www.saltworks.us/salt_info/si_WhatIsSalt.asp
http://earthsci.org/mineral/mindep/salt/salt.htm
http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/collectedinfo/saltinfo.htm

You are correct, 134.84 lb/ft^3 is the specific gravity. I was using bulk density (per ASTM D 632).

I am trying to ask The Google why your number is twice my number, but I am unable to escape the ravages of my liberal arts degree.

[AdamantlyD20]

Item creation feats? Profession, search, or ancestral relic, if you get anything of worth, you can convert it to magic item for a 1:1 ratio.

[Togo]

He's used to running a supers game, where it's all about creative use of the powers you have. Sounds like he's trying to restrict the options open to the PCs to force them to be more creative with what they have.

He's not throwing a iron golem at you because he doesn't realise you need adamantine weapons to hurt it, he's throwing it at you because you can't hurt it, and wants to see what you'll do.

You're trying to play a different game from your DM. Which one of you is 'right' is everything to do with the dynamics of the group, and very little to do with the rules.

Talk with him, get an idea of the game you expect and that he expects.

[Artillery]

Again - if DM doesn't want you to have resources, then you won't have any. Wall of Salt? Congrats - you must find different buyer for every ounce - and it's assuming that he will not tell you flat out "no". And even if he will let this fly - guess what kind of encounter your next fight will be? Because I'm betting on "leaving you naked in the middle of nowhere" kind. Destroying cities in response for such stupid restrictions? Well, say hello to this band of epic casters with full WBL whose entire reason of existence is to force you to obey.

What do you mean, sell it? It has a commodity value. You can directly pay people in it, just like iron.

If a DM doesn't say anything special about the game before we start and its d&d its assumed to be normal. Not getting loot when adventuring, that defeats the point of adventuring, personal growth is partially measured in wealth.

If the DM doesn't want to give me resources themselves then I will acquire them by doing other things. Including but not limited to ushering in a post scarcity economy. Resetting wall of *stuff* traps to build a city quickly. Still need artisans or people with fabricate to do detail work. Actual getting a lyre of building would help significantly.

[Abaddona]

Yeah - except in this case we know something special about the game. And this thing is "low wealth". So why do you think that DM will let you aquire wealth when he doesn't want you to have it? So unless such DM is ok with being creative to obtain wealth, it's actually safer to assume that he will make it as hard as possible for you to use such tricks.
So yeah - we are not discussing RAW game here anymore but game with very specific houserule. And what are the chances that DM will not make other houserules if you find a way around his main rule?

[Artillery]

Yeah - except in this case we know something special about the game. And this thing is "low wealth". So why do you think that DM will let you aquire wealth when he doesn't want you to have it? So unless such DM is ok with being creative to obtain wealth, it's actually safer to assume that he will make it as hard as possible for you to use such tricks.
So yeah - we are not discussing RAW game here anymore but game with very specific houserule. And what are the chances that DM will not make other houserules if you find a way around his main rule?

We still don't know the level of these characters. Low wealth should still be able to get a +1 weapon. DR/aligned and DR/Adamantine will be hard for those martial characters. How poor is low wealth, 1/3 WBL?

[SinsI]

Other options for acquiring wealth. Spells that create commodities. Did you know that salt is worth its weight in silver?

Level 7 Wizard takes Wall of Salt. Salt has a commodity price of 5gp per pound in the players handbook and can be directly traded without exchanging it. At minimum caster level to cast Wall of Salt it creates a 5ft tall, 35ft long, 7 inch thick wall made of salt. That is 102.08 cubic feet of salt. Sodium chloride has a density of 135.47. That gives us 13929lbs of salt. Giving us 69645gp per casting. No work needs to done. This has innate value.

At lvl 8 that becomes 90313gp per cast for a level 4 spellslot.

You could also do this earlier, a scroll of a 4th level spell is only 700gp. You get 100x your investment back.

Why do you assume that Wall of Salt creates rock salt that can be sold? Or that it is pure enough to be sold?

And commodities have inherent problems of oversaturating the market. With each pound you've used to pay, the price is going to go down, sharply. By completely crushing the market you won't even earn back the price of the spell...

[Abaddona]

Well - OP said about simple example scenario being the fight with the flesh golem. Flesh golem is CR7 and since it is "simple scenario" then i think we should treat it as a normal encounter rather than a boss fighht (so party average ECL is maybe 6 and above).
Price of Adamantine weapon is +3000 gp, when character of this level should have about 14000 gp (i don't have exact values and I'm too lazy to find them so I may be off for about 2k) - so it's quite reasonable to expect that characters would have adamantine +1 weapon or normal +2.

[Rubik]

Why do you assume that Wall of Salt creates rock salt that can be sold? Or that it is pure enough to be sold?It creates what the spell text says it creates: salt. Salt is listed in the equipment section as being usable in lieu of currency at the same rate as silver, so it can be used as such.


And commodities have inherent problems of oversaturating the market. With each pound you've used to pay, the price is going to go down, sharply. By completely crushing the market you won't even earn back the price of the spell...Supply and demand don't exist in D&D. Commodities go for what they're listed as, which means you always get the same exchange rates between salt and silver.

[Boci]

Supply and demand don't exist in D&D. Commodities go for what they're listed as, which means you always get the same exchange rates between salt and silver.

By RAW yes, but the DM has already introduced one houserule to limit player wealth, so RAW is no longer a grantee.

[skyth]

By RAW yes, but the DM has already introduced one houserule to limit player wealth, so RAW is no longer a grantee.

So RAW won't give you stuff in this case? ;) (Sorry, had to snark :) )

[SinsI]

By RAW yes, but the DM has already introduced one houserule to limit player wealth, so RAW is no longer a grantee.

By RAW, it creates not "Salt (Trade good)", but "Wall made of salt".
It says nothing about ability to transform the latter into the former.

[Boci]

By RAW, it creates not "Salt (Trade good)", but "Wall made of salt".
It says nothing about ability to transform the latter into the former.

There is no such thing as "salt (trade good)", only "salt" which is listed as a trade good. Does wall of iron create iron? Does wall of stone create stone? Same with wall of salt.

[Rubik]

Furthermore, salt is directly usable as currency. This means that anyone you give salt to as payment can use it as payment in turn. There is no inflation anywhere, even when you flood a market with gold, especially in a large city. Just use salt as silver. It's like if you could cast a spell IRL that summons a gigantic pile of genuine $100 bills. It's not like it'll affect much except your genuine financial well-being and contentment.

[SinsI]

There is no such thing as "salt (trade good)", only "salt" which is listed as a trade good. Does wall of iron create iron? Does wall of stone create stone? Same with wall of salt.

Wall of salt creates not Salt, but Salt transformed into a wall. It is *not* raw salt, but a certain processed afterproduct. It deliberately says that it "must merge with with existing stone" - so parts of that stone contaminates your salt. You need to break it down and remove anything inedible to create salt you can sell as a trade good (in case it is actually made of Sodium chloride, and not, say, Magnesium Sulfate).
Otherwise you'd be able to sell seawater (~3.5% of salt) for 1.75 silver per pound...

And prices are NOT always fixed. "Guilds set prices for the goods or services they control, and determine who may or may not offer those goods and services".
So the prices are fixed only if guilds actually control the goods. Now, what do you think happens to their market control if your PC comes and offers his infinite Salt supply? The guilds are no longer in control, so the prices are not fixed.

[Rubik]

Wall of salt creates not Salt, but Salt transformed into a wall. It is *not* raw salt, but a certain processed afterproduct. It deliberately says that it "must merge with with existing stone" - so parts of that stone contaminates your salt. You need to break it down and remove anything inedible to create salt you can sell as a trade good (in case it is actually made of Sodium chloride, and not, say, Magnesium Sulfate).
Otherwise you'd be able to sell seawater (~3.5% of salt) for 1.75 silver per pound...What're your RAW citations for this?

[SinsI]

What're your RAW citations for this?
Sandstorm, page 127 :
"The spell creates a ...wall of salt crystal that merges into adjoining rock surfaces".
"The wall ... must merge with ... existing stone"

[Rubik]

Sandstorm, page 127 :
"The spell creates a ...wall of salt crystal that merges into adjoining rock surfaces".
"The wall ... must merge with ... existing stone"And yet it says nothing about any of your other assertions at all.

[Abaddona]

Also in DMG there are actual limitations for "how much gold is in the settlement" and suggestions about "if you like you may try to model more realistic economy" - of course nobody sane does that in typical (where "typical" means "not-trade-related") adventure because it would be boring as hell and require far more work than it is worth but for certain kinds of DM even the slightiest suggestion (even if presented as "you shouldn't do this") is as good as actual ruling. Because "realism", or "gods said so" or "it's stupid to allow this" or really "if i say: "thou shall not have nice things" then thou shall not try to find ways around that".

EDIT:
let's see DMG1 page 139
"If the price of a broadsword in Thorris is 20 gp, it shouldn’t suddenly shoot up to 200 gp without some explanation, such as the flow of metal or ore being cut off, the only smiths in 100 miles all being killed in a terrible accident, or something equally bizarre."

"Spellcasters willing to make magic items or cast spells for hire can make a lot of money, although expenditures of personal power (experience points) are often involved, and the demand for such expensive items is unsteady at best and can be depended on only in large cities."

page 140
"The law of supply and demand can drastically affect the value of any currency. If characters start flashing around a lot of gold and pumping it into the local economy, merchants may quickly raise prices."

it should be enough so i won't bother with searching for additional examples.

[Hobbo Jim]

Another way to approach your DM about this could be done in-game. Go to a magic items shop and ask what their prices are, and if they our extraordinarily out of your budget, it's time to ask a couple things. How do they get the money to make these things? How often do they get business if you, as an adventurer, don't even have enough money? If they don't get any business... Why is there even a shop? Another option would be to find a vendor, confirm with the DM on what they have, and then simply have the party simply steal it all, forcefully or sneakily it doesn't really matter. If the DM demands that you be creative, be creative in getting the items you want :P

[Zirconia]

(in case it is actually made of Sodium chloride, and not, say, Magnesium Sulfate).
Otherwise you'd be able to sell seawater (~3.5% of salt) for 1.75 silver per pound...

That would probably be the tack I'd take if I was DM, there are many kinds of "salt", that is, chemical compounds with predominantly ionic bonding, some of which are edible and flavorful, some of which are edible but don't taste good, and some of which are toxic. Trade Good salt could have been purified or mined, which is why it has a value closer to that of Iron than that of Iron Ore. A DM could even say that ocean salt is either much more diluted, i.e. salt content well below 3.5%, or that it contains some of these other bad tasting or toxic salts to explain why adventurers can't just sell sea water or set up simple evaporation beds.

Obviously there is no specific support for this in the rules, but I would be somewhat surprised if the writers of the D&D system were particularly focused on how real world science, magic, and the economy would interact in that one tiny corner of the rules.

[Theomniadept]

Whoa whoa whoa I go to bed and the topic gains two additional pages?

The DM has basically said he expects us to make all of our money, through what he's hoping to be clever means. That'll be entertaining for a day but let's face it, he's going to learn the hard way that all he's encouraging is us to spend exorbitant amounts of time just making money. Also, he's really going into the realm of stupid. The wizard can just magic himself all the money in the world. The fire-based sorcerer? Not so much. The Dread Necromancer? Maaaaaaybe if someone had the ability to make wands but lacked the Ray of Enfeeblement spell (which is arguably a good wand spell especially for rogues).

The idea one sorcerer had was to, and I am not kidding on this, use craft (note he has no ranks in this but apparently that's not an issue) to make leather cat hats with small beads for eyes....and he wants to charge people to have the eyes cast with Light spells....that would last 20 minutes.

The only thing I can think of is selling my Lay On Hands ability because part of his world is the fact that most people don't believe in gods but we're talking comparing 9 HP of LOH per day with 1d8+1 CLW spells.

[Defiled Cross]

The mo' money we come across..

..the mo' problems we see.

:smallbiggrin:

[SinsI]

Also, he's really going into the realm of stupid. The wizard can just magic himself all the money in the world. The fire-based sorcerer? Not so much. The Dread Necromancer? Maaaaaaybe if someone had the ability to make wands but lacked the Ray of Enfeeblement spell (which is arguably a good wand spell especially for rogues).

Slavery is a pretty solid option - instead of killing the opponents in encounters, be merciful - Dominate or otherwise catch them - and sell them to the nearest mine. And that Iron Golem is an especially good target - if you find some way to take control over him, he is worth a whopping 150,000 gp!

[Icewraith]

Whoa whoa whoa I go to bed and the topic gains two additional pages?

The DM has basically said he expects us to make all of our money, through what he's hoping to be clever means. That'll be entertaining for a day but let's face it, he's going to learn the hard way that all he's encouraging is us to spend exorbitant amounts of time just making money. Also, he's really going into the realm of stupid. The wizard can just magic himself all the money in the world. The fire-based sorcerer? Not so much. The Dread Necromancer? Maaaaaaybe if someone had the ability to make wands but lacked the Ray of Enfeeblement spell (which is arguably a good wand spell especially for rogues).

The idea one sorcerer had was to, and I am not kidding on this, use craft (note he has no ranks in this but apparently that's not an issue) to make leather cat hats with small beads for eyes....and he wants to charge people to have the eyes cast with Light spells....that would last 20 minutes.

The only thing I can think of is selling my Lay On Hands ability because part of his world is the fact that most people don't believe in gods but we're talking comparing 9 HP of LOH per day with 1d8+1 CLW spells.

The guy with a permanent source of free (if unintelligent) untiring labor doesn't know how to make money with it?

All you need is some skeletons (or even better, skeletal horses), rope and maybe some wheels or a cart and you have bulk transport that doesn't need to be fed, doesn't drink, doesn't excrete, doesn't tire, and will go wherever you tell it to.

Need a source of near-endless energy? Build a treadmill and have the undead walk on it. You'll need to do maintenance occasionally. You now have an engine.

Granted your mojo is more limited depending on what level the DN is.

[Suddo]

Start solving the problems in the most round about way possible. Like when faced with a Golem instead of jumping at it with a pole try and beat it to death with his own fist. Then complain about it when he won't be let you do something cool and that you are trying to think outside of the box.

[Yawgmoth]

With that out of the way, has anyone else had this problem? How do you convince a DM of this? I hate to say it but every DM I have ever played with has fallen under the terrible idea that they, as DM, should have final say on literally everything, in which case the game is no longer D&D but rather Bribe The DM I start by saying "fine, then I'm not playing." I value my free time highly, and I am not going to waste it on a game that isn't fun. I've had would-be GMs try to force me into all manner of laughable BS, including but not limited to denying me starting wealth, heavily restricting race/class selections, requiring me to write up a veritable novel about my character, and expecting me to be willing to put up with fishmalk (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Fishmalk) players. I will not waste my time on any of it.

If all the players get up and leave, then the DM is no longer a DM; he's just some dork with a half-written fantasy novel. You get better DMs by not playing with the bad ones.

[Icewraith]

Start solving the problems in the most round about way possible. Like when faced with a Golem instead of jumping at it with a pole try and beat it to death with his own fist. Then complain about it when he won't be let you do something cool and that you are trying to think outside of the box.

This would actually work RAW if you were a high enough level Swordsage via Fool's Strike. Also I think there's a racial feet or combat style for gnomes where you do this to large or larger creatures.

Actually, once you've got the golem down, just scavenge an arm or something and use it as your main weapon. Admantine DR is solved, it looks like your DM won't be worried about proficiency (or carrying capacity), and it looks badass. Weld (or magically attach) the fist to the end of your lance (or stick the lance through the fist?), use some lead or other dense material as a counterweight and see if you can have a piercing/bludgeoning adamantine lance/salvaged golem arm.

[Theomniadept]

The guy with a permanent source of free (if unintelligent) untiring labor doesn't know how to make money with it?

All you need is some skeletons (or even better, skeletal horses), rope and maybe some wheels or a cart and you have bulk transport that doesn't need to be fed, doesn't drink, doesn't excrete, doesn't tire, and will go wherever you tell it to.

Need a source of near-endless energy? Build a treadmill and have the undead walk on it. You'll need to do maintenance occasionally. You now have an engine.

Granted your mojo is more limited depending on what level the DN is.

That's the thing, there's already massive inconsistencies with this world that he refuses to correct.

Apparently we're in a city with absolutely massive inflation. A chicken is 1 gold and two players paid that for no reason other than stupidity. There are basically the stereotypical elven, human, and dwarven kingdoms, with one kingdom of 'evil' orcs, goblinoids, and kobolds.

We are in one city that is apparently massive enough to contain high level NPCs that can craft magic items but yet if the DN tried to use Summon Undead to provide free labor he would be arrested. This city touts itself as the only multicultural city where humans, halflings, orcs, dwarves, elves, gnomes, goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, catfolk, and kobolds can all live together in peace.

That's right, racism is gone but summoned free labor that takes the shape of a skeleton is outright disallowed.

Want to know other things? I had to debate the guy over facebook chat on exactly why poison is not inherently evil. The 'old gamer' at game argued it was but I had to explain in excruciating detail that 3.5 removved that restriction for good reasons, including but not limited to:
1. Poisonous animals being neutral
2. Druids and Clerics can cast the Poison spell that does not have an [Evil] descriptor
3. Druids are not automatically evil for having a viper with them
4. Evil poisons are called drugs and are in the BoVD. Good poisons are called Ravages. Neutral poisons are called poisons. This trichotomy exists for a reason.
5. Poisons can lower attributes and cause conditions like sleep. All poison is not Arsenic.
6. He honestly said that poison was evil because it can cause someone to convulse and die, to which I explained in depth how Fire, Electric, and Acid spells can cause much more pain, and that hitting an enemy with a sword 15 times would cause a relatively similar amount of pain, and technically speaking both acids and poisons are chemical reactions.

He then all-caps'd "IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION", which proved my point outright, but he basically let me know if I used poison I would lose my Chaotic Good paladinhood despite me playing CG to meet the party halfway on the alignment field.

He is definitely on a power trip and I fully intend to bring this up, and if need be I'll exlplain the tier system to him and why all of his "The DM can do anything" BS is in fact only used by DMs who don't understand they are only nerfing nonmagic classes that inherently require more roleplaying.

[Icewraith]

That's the thing, there's already massive inconsistencies with this world that he refuses to correct.

Apparently we're in a city with absolutely massive inflation. A chicken is 1 gold and two players paid that for no reason other than stupidity. There are basically the stereotypical elven, human, and dwarven kingdoms, with one kingdom of 'evil' orcs, goblinoids, and kobolds.

We are in one city that is apparently massive enough to contain high level NPCs that can craft magic items but yet if the DN tried to use Summon Undead to provide free labor he would be arrested. This city touts itself as the only multicultural city where humans, halflings, orcs, dwarves, elves, gnomes, goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, catfolk, and kobolds can all live together in peace.

That's right, racism is gone but summoned free labor that takes the shape of a skeleton is outright disallowed.

Want to know other things? I had to debate the guy over facebook chat on exactly why poison is not inherently evil. The 'old gamer' at game argued it was but I had to explain in excruciating detail that 3.5 removved that restriction for good reasons, including but not limited to:
1. Poisonous animals being neutral
2. Druids and Clerics can cast the Poison spell that does not have an [Evil] descriptor
3. Druids are not automatically evil for having a viper with them
4. Evil poisons are called drugs and are in the BoVD. Good poisons are called Ravages. Neutral poisons are called poisons. This trichotomy exists for a reason.
5. Poisons can lower attributes and cause conditions like sleep. All poison is not Arsenic.
6. He honestly said that poison was evil because it can cause someone to convulse and die, to which I explained in depth how Fire, Electric, and Acid spells can cause much more pain, and that hitting an enemy with a sword 15 times would cause a relatively similar amount of pain, and technically speaking both acids and poisons are chemical reactions.

He then all-caps'd "IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION", which proved my point outright, but he basically let me know if I used poison I would lose my Chaotic Good paladinhood despite me playing CG to meet the party halfway on the alignment field.

He is definitely on a power trip and I fully intend to bring this up, and if need be I'll exlplain the tier system to him and why all of his "The DM can do anything" BS is in fact only used by DMs who don't understand they are only nerfing nonmagic classes that inherently require more roleplaying.

To be fair, poison use + nonpaladin = not big enough to cause an alignment issue.

However, IIRC the few examples I've seen of a Paladin's code, not using poison is usually in there somewhere. Granted, it's also your character, and you should have some say in what your Paladin's code actually is.

However, my knee-jerk reaction was that Paladins follow a stricter code of good than non-paladins, and the reason there are ravages in the BOED is to provide good aligned characters with a poison-like effect that's not actually poison.

One of the differences between a poison and other kind of attack is a lot of times a poison is an indiscriminate trap- poison a drink and anyone who drinks from it is affected. You don't get that sort of thing with most common offensive magic- even someone flinging fireballs into a crowd is still targeting SOMETHING (and is probably evil). Contact poison a door and some poor hireling takes CON damage when you really needed to kill the greedy but well prepared adventuring bastards who hired him.

Poisoned blades are a bit better, since ideally you have to stab someone to inflict the poison, but it's still poison and has bad implications (and you've got to carry vials of it around). Also: disarm is a thing (see Hamlet).

However, your alignment argument doesn't really hold water, because druids and animals are creatures of nature, are ALWAYS neutral (or have a neutral alignment component), and generate the poison naturally or by the power of nature. Just because it's fine for the Neutral guys who already have it doesn't mean it's ok for a Good Paladin, Chaotic or Lawful. You can bet the blackguards and evil paladins are probably using it, though.

Really, I think you wrecked your own argument by bringing up Ravages. However, since you brought them up, why not see if you can use them? One of the nice things about them is they only affect evil targets, so you can shake hands with things like polymorphed succubi under nondetection and have your free passive detect evil go off (and get some surprise damage in to boot).

Granted, news of that sort of trick tends to get around.

The only way I can see a good-aligned Paladin who freely uses poison working is some sort of anthropomorphic viper or other creature who comes by the poison naturally. Reformed Yuan-ti crossbreed? Also Drow sleep poison is still OK IIRC in the BOED.

[Theomniadept]

To be fair, poison use + nonpaladin = not big enough to cause an alignment issue.

However, IIRC the few examples I've seen of a Paladin's code, not using poison is usually in there somewhere. Granted, it's also your character, and you should have some say in what your Paladin's code actually is.

Paladins of Freedom follow a different code. LG Paladin - no poison. CG Paladin doesn't forbid poison.

Also I brought up Ravages to show that there are good and evil versions of what is inherently neutral. Ravages kinda suck due to their extreme cost and the fact that there are a whopping 5 ravages.

[Icewraith]

Paladins of Freedom follow a different code. LG Paladin - no poison. CG Paladin doesn't forbid poison.

Also I brought up Ravages to show that there are good and evil versions of what is inherently neutral. Ravages kinda suck due to their extreme cost and the fact that there are a whopping 5 ravages.

If you can sell your DM that the poison thing is a Law restriction and not a Good restriction you might have a shot. However, BOED is very focused on the good thing and does mention poison use, and provides the (sucky) alternative of Ravages.

The strongest argument you could make is that the Paladin of Freedom code specifically states you can use poison instead of just omitting the subject from the sample code. However I don't know if it actually says that, and judging from the amount of effort we're putting into this I don't think it does, otherwise it would have come up. There's a big gulf between "doesn't forbid" and "allow".

[Abaddona]

Yup, also attacking evil beings (well, outsiders are kind of exceptions here) without any reason other than "they are evil" is also an evil act.

As for the price of chicken etc. it is the price of everyone or only "special promotion for adventurers" - if later then IMO it's ok - adventurers have lots of money so it's normal that commoners will try to milk them as much as they can.

The problem of course still is being "low wealth". You should ask him why he wants you to be "low wealth" - if the reason for this is "you should be creative to obtain wealth" - well, say hello to forgery and disguise. However if he simply doesn't like whole concept of "magic mart" etc. and wants you to stay poor because he wants you to stay poor (or what's also quite possible: he fears that if he gives you too many options then he will lose control) then you cannot have many options left. Even if you obtain wealth - he will rob you, disjunction you or do other stupid things to keep you in check. You can of course refuse to go on an adventure "cause there are many scary things and we are not prepared enough" but it could backfire into "every encouter is now kobolds, skeletons and other CR1 critters".
Everything you can do is tell him that certain aspects of his game are boring and unfun. If he doesn't aggree - well, you can try to show him new world by starting your own campaign.

[Sith_Happens]

Furthermore, salt is directly usable as currency. This means that anyone you give salt to as payment can use it as payment in turn. There is no inflation anywhere, even when you flood a market with gold, especially in a large city. Just use salt as silver. It's like if you could cast a spell IRL that summons a gigantic pile of genuine $100 bills. It's not like it'll affect much except your genuine financial well-being and contentment.

Technically it depends on the percent change in the money supply from doing so, but money supplies tend to be absurdly large.


[Elemental Campaign Setting of Inanity]

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

[Alent]

Whoa whoa whoa I go to bed and the topic gains two additional pages?

The DM has basically said he expects us to make all of our money, through what he's hoping to be clever means. That'll be entertaining for a day but let's face it, he's going to learn the hard way that all he's encouraging is us to spend exorbitant amounts of time just making money. Also, he's really going into the realm of stupid. The wizard can just magic himself all the money in the world. The fire-based sorcerer? Not so much. The Dread Necromancer? Maaaaaaybe if someone had the ability to make wands but lacked the Ray of Enfeeblement spell (which is arguably a good wand spell especially for rogues).

The idea one sorcerer had was to, and I am not kidding on this, use craft (note he has no ranks in this but apparently that's not an issue) to make leather cat hats with small beads for eyes....and he wants to charge people to have the eyes cast with Light spells....that would last 20 minutes.

The only thing I can think of is selling my Lay On Hands ability because part of his world is the fact that most people don't believe in gods but we're talking comparing 9 HP of LOH per day with 1d8+1 CLW spells.

... Okay, I can kind of see his point here. You guys are basically armed to destroy any economy, and the best you can come up with is hello kitty LED hats and overhealing commoners. And from the post you made after this one, the economy is begging to be broken like a twig.

I'm going to ignore the good and evil bit because it basically says he's a rotten person of low moral fiber who hides behind absolutes, and that pretty much speaks for itself.

I've spoilered the rest of this post since it's a little tongue in cheek, but there's an element of seriousness in that if he thinks you're not being creative enough, you should really start looking at the situation with the attitude of "how can I CHANGE this into something I can live with?" and find a way that the DM will allow to achieve that ends.

To breaking this economy... I'd start by asking the orcs and ask them where some of their old quarries were. If the DM objects, they're Orcs, somewhere in their past are ancestors who built stone effigies and crude weapons.

You're going to go to these quarries and the DN is going to make use of the fact that an orcish slave quarry doubles as a burial ground. You'll quarry huge amounts of stone with the undead.

While you're at it, fell a bunch of timber and get that sorcerer's leather ready for some good use.

You're going to need the wizard and sorcerers to work together on this next bit, since as a paladin, you're not the best suited for it, they're going to need to get an alchemy kit.

The next step is magically shaping the stone into the body of a convertible car and alchemically reinforcing it to be as strong as steel. (My DM uses this, and I don't know where he gets the rules from, I think it's just a houseruled "it works in dwarf fortress" thing. Your DM runs on rule of cool, he'll probably allow it. If not... Ironwood is a thing.) The car interior is going to be fine woodworking and the seats are going to be leather.

Now you're going to make self resetting mundane swinging weighted pendulum traps. Four of them. They're going to be your engine, they self reset every turn, which turns an axle. They trigger when you push the accelerator. Add wheels and a shapesand suspension (alchemical item, btw. you just craft this.) and you're good to go. You should be able to figure out breaks on your own.

Now, you drive around town with your Paladin of Freedom behind the wheel, sitting in leather seats with a leather jacket and shades, to drive up interest in your new product line.

Once you've sold a sufficient number of cars, miniaturize the engine, and make motorcycles. After you've made enough motorcycles, start holding races and let people bet on them through your group, the official bookies. This will make you absurdly rich, which you now use to develop new weaponry and your ultimate weapon: the atom splitting prestidigitation trap.

Hold a massive road rally as far away from the city as possible, get as many people as you can, let the prestidigitation trap split an atom and turn the city into a ruin.

This qualifies as a nuclear apocalypse, therefore... Your campaign is now Mad Max, starring a paladin of FREEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOM, a Dread Necro mechanic and his awesome motorcycle gang of skeletal warriors in leathers, backed up by a wizard and two sorcerers.

[Grayson01]

I had this problem with a DM for multible Campaigns one of which was a year long and for that whole year we found 1 Mirthial Shirt, 1 +1 Scymatar, 1 +3 LongSword, and one Medium Black Dragon's Hord (Oh and a Cloak of Resitance +1 and Ring of Protection +1 I got from killing my challanger to become part of the Assassin's Guild). Luckly I was a Rouge Assassin I stole A LOT OF STUFF from other people. When I asked him why we got so few Magical treasures he said it's doesn't make sense for bad guys to carry around treasure. The rest of the party would make new characters because he would start them off with WBL and let the Alcart what they wanted at creation. So we would slowly start making new Charcters (Except me) and trade and sell off the old charcters stuff to make up for it.

the next two years he DMed he got a little better at give wealth but not a whole lot.

have you tried showing him the back of the PHB2 that shows what a (sorry cant finish this have to go pack inmate property)

[Rubik]

I had this problem with a DM for multible Campaigns one of which was a year long and for that whole year we found 1 Mirthial Shirt, 1 +1 Scymatar, 1 +3 LongSword, and one Medium Black Dragon's Hord (Oh and a Cloak of Resitance +1 and Ring of Protection +1 I got from killing my challanger to become part of the Assassin's Guild). Luckly I was a Rouge Assassin I stole A LOT OF STUFF from other people. When I asked him why we got so few Magical treasures he said it's doesn't make sense for bad guys to carry around treasure. The rest of the party would make new characters because he would start them off with WBL and let the Alcart what they wanted at creation. So we would slowly start making new Charcters (Except me) and trade and sell off the old charcters stuff to make up for it.

the next two years he DMed he got a little better at give wealth but not a whole lot.

have you tried showing him the back of the PHB2 that shows what a (sorry cant finish this have to go pack inmate property)That's painful to read, for multitudinous reasons, not the least of which is the subject matter.

[Telok]

For money you could try to set up a marrige counciling service called "Paladin's Marital Problems and Detect Evil Solutions Service." For a while it will turn the session into a bad romantic comedy sitcom, but eventually the DM will hand you someone Evil. Kill him, take his stuff, and before anyone knows he's dead you loot his house and business too. This wil be easier if you can get a party member disguised as the dead guy.

As for the combat woes, nobody buys adamantine weapons. You bypass DR with Power Attack, energy damage, or the Martial Study feat. There is a basic disconnection between your expectation of awesome and your DM's. You expect your awesome to come from your character sheet and stuff you can buy. Your DM expects your awesome to come from you. Stop being a BSF that hits things with a stick and cries if that doesn't work. Throw a net and a sheet over your problem, wrap it in chains and manacles, then open a gladatorial arena and charge twenty gold a ticket.

Or roll a mailman and deliver mail if you don't want to be challenged.

[Grayson01]

That's painful to read, for multitudinous reasons, not the least of which is the subject matter.

What my horrible Spelling with out spell check? lol