A Unicorn's Dilemma

[LordErebus12]

I'm playing a unicorn swordsage (Goresage/Hornsage?) in an eberron campaign... :smallcool: Can I use my natural attacks for the purposes of discipline focus abilities (such as insightful strike)? I cannot use weapons, since I have no ability to actually wield/hold weapons. I guess you could count the Horn as a spear for the purposes of Desert Wind... Could they work under the banner of unarmed strikes? I'm shocked they did not actually add natural attacks as a whole to the style lists... Tiger Claw has natural claw attacks included...

I was going to focus on Tiger Claw and Desert Wind, with a touch of Stone Dragon and Shadow Hand. I'm effectively a 12th ECL character (we've reduced/removed the unicorn's powers and LA to +2). Racial 4th, Swordsage 6th, LA +2

[OldTrees1]

Are you an unarmed swordsage? (it is a variant listed somewhere in the book IIRC) Since you are an unarmed swordsage, you are allowed to make unarmed strikes with your horn/hoof.

[Uncle Pine]

Are you an unarmed swordsage? (it is a variant listed somewhere in the book IIRC) Since you are an unarmed swordsage, you are allowed to make unarmed strikes with your horn/hoof.

Actually, an unarmed swordsage unicorn can, on a full attack, make a complete unarmed strikes routine followed by a secondary horn attack and 2 secondary hooves attacks.
If you manage to get a bite attack (IIRC there's an item in the MIC for that), you could also buy a mouthpick weapon (from Lords of Maddness) and bypass your inability to wield weapons.

EDIT: If you go for a mouthpick weapon remember that you're always considered proficient with a mouthpick weapon, so just go for the most badass, obscure and powerful weapon you can find (or use a mouthpick spiked chain).

[OldTrees1]

Actually, an unarmed swordsage unicorn can, on a full attack, make a complete unarmed strikes routine followed by a secondary horn attack and 2 secondary hooves attacks.

True. I was merely saying that the Horn sometimes counts as a discipline weapon (when it is an unarmed strike). Expanding it from "sometimes" to "always" would be reasonable of the DM.

[Yogibear41]

Your gore attack it not an unarmed strike, however you can headbutt your opponent as an unarmed strike and just so happen to poke them with your horn. I know its silly but these are the rules we are talking about. Per the rules you can make unarmed strikes and then natural attacks as a part of a full attack however you cannot make a natural attack with the same part that did the unarmed strike, basically if you unarmed strike with your head or your hoof you cannot hoof attack with that same leg or gore attack with your head.

On a different subject if you are not opposed to homebrew this maybe of use to you: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2634.0 alot better than eating 4 RHD and a +2 LA

[Kelb_Panthera]

Strictly; no. "Gore" doesn't appear on any discipline's weapon list. It's a fairly small bonus, all in all, though so I wouldn't worry overmuch about it.

As for weapon use, there're a number of options. Off the top of my head there's the gloves of man from savage species. There's the extra hand in the MIC. There's arms of the naga, also from savage species. I'm sure there's a few more I'm not thinking of. Mouthpick weapons don't work here though. Unicorns don't have a bite attack to replace, IIRC.

[Khatoblepas]

Really it isn't too hard to imagine a unicorn fighting with a weapon:

http://media2.giphy.com/media/aCWRzw4MvN8yY/200_s.gif

Though, if you want to do it legit, the item that gives you a bite attack in the MiC (mentioned earlier) is the Fanged Mask.

On a related note, the srd says that a Unicorn's horn is a +3 Magic Weapon. Does this mean it can be further enchanted? Possibly with the Morphing quality? Then you could turn your horn into whatever weapon you want it to be.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, a horse could wield a knife, but everyone knows frying pans are more OP.

[SinsI]

Maybe you can actually get yourself some hands?
I.e. a 2 level dip into Totemist for Girallon Arms might be able to grant you four additional 1d4 + 1/2 Strength claw attacks.
(assuming your DM allows you to use arms Chakra)

[WhamBamSam]

I'm playing a unicorn swordsage (Goresage/Hornsage?) in an eberron campaign... :smallcool: Can I use my natural attacks for the purposes of discipline focus abilities (such as insightful strike)? I cannot use weapons, since I have no ability to actually wield/hold weapons. I guess you could count the Horn as a spear for the purposes of Desert Wind... Could they work under the banner of unarmed strikes? I'm shocked they did not actually add natural attacks as a whole to the style lists... Tiger Claw has natural claw attacks included...

I was going to focus on Tiger Claw and Desert Wind, with a touch of Stone Dragon and Shadow Hand. I'm effectively a 12th ECL character (we've reduced/removed the unicorn's powers and LA to +2). Racial 4th, Swordsage 6th, LA +2It's always bugged me that natural attacks writ large aren't a discipline weapon somewhere too, especially when the ToB classes are otherwise generally pretty friendly to weird monster characters what with RHD counting as 1/2 IL. It's not as bad as you think though. Weapon Focus doesn't work for your gore or hooves, and you're similarly out of luck if you wanted to use Shadow Blade or a similar feat that requires a discipline weapon, but the other Discipline Focus abilities work fine, since they only depend on the maneuver/stance you're using.

So Insightful Strikes won't be a problem. The Wis to damage will apply to any (or in the case of Pouncing Charge, all) of your unarmed strikes and/or natural weapons that you use for strikes from the relevant discipline.

[Red Fel]

The bottom line is that natural weapons are not unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes can count as natural weapons under certain circumstances, but not the other way around. Natural weapons don't get the same treatment as unarmed strikes. Natural weapons do not receive iterative attacks from high BAB like unarmed strikes do.

Thus, if "Unarmed strikes" was your discipline focus, it would not apply to your natural weapons.

Frankly, as others have mentioned, your gore attack is secondary anyway; you only get one hit per round with it. From an optimization standpoint (if not a fluff standpoint) it seems wasteful to make it a discipline focus.

Note that there is one discipline - Tiger Claw - that lists a natural weapon (claws) on its list of discipline weapons.

[Fouredged Sword]

I second a fang mask + mouthpick weapon. It works well, and you basically have a sword in your mouth.

[LordErebus12]

The bottom line is that natural weapons are not unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes can count as natural weapons under certain circumstances, but not the other way around. Natural weapons don't get the same treatment as unarmed strikes. Natural weapons do not receive iterative attacks from high BAB like unarmed strikes do.

Thus, if "Unarmed strikes" was your discipline focus, it would not apply to your natural weapons.

Frankly, as others have mentioned, your gore attack is secondary anyway; you only get one hit per round with it. From an optimization standpoint (if not a fluff standpoint) it seems wasteful to make it a discipline focus.

Note that there is one discipline - Tiger Claw - that lists a natural weapon (claws) on its list of discipline weapons.

This I know... I don't like it, but thats how it works.

You don't select a specific weapon for discipline focus. you select a group of them, ie: Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, etc.

The Gore Attack is the primary weapon of a unicorn... it is not a secondary attack. It hads full strength bonus and does not suffer the -5 penalty for being secondary. Now, if I used a weapon with it, the horn would become secondary...

I mentioned that in the OP. Seems annoying that they overlooked all the different types of natural attacks, other than Claws.

[LordErebus12]

I second a fang mask + mouthpick weapon. It works well, and you basically have a sword in your mouth.

Thematically, I dislike that...

[LordErebus12]

It's always bugged me that natural attacks writ large aren't a discipline weapon somewhere too, especially when the ToB classes are otherwise generally pretty friendly to weird monster characters what with RHD counting as 1/2 IL. It's not as bad as you think though. Weapon Focus doesn't work for your gore or hooves, and you're similarly out of luck if you wanted to use Shadow Blade or a similar feat that requires a discipline weapon, but the other Discipline Focus abilities work fine, since they only depend on the maneuver/stance you're using.

So Insightful Strikes won't be a problem. The Wis to damage will apply to any (or in the case of Pouncing Charge, all) of your unarmed strikes and/or natural weapons that you use for strikes from the relevant discipline.

Insightful Strikes: At 4th level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus on damage rolls whenever you execute a strike from the chosen discipline. At 12th level, you can choose a second discipline to which this ability applies.

So, as long as the strike is not weapon specific, i can gain the damage bonus for the horn...

[Metahuman1]

If your gonna have a Fanged mask, do it right.

Pick up Battle Jumping, Dip Spirit Lion totem Barbarian, and use a lance. You now have 2 lances dealing double damage on the charge, were you jump up with sudden leap and land full attacking and claiming high ground bonus.

Take it a step further by nabbing spirited charge and a +1 Valiours Lance and +1 Valorous Necklace of Natural weapons get x4 damage on both attacks.

[LordErebus12]

If your gonna have a Fanged mask, do it right.

Pick up Battle Jumping, Dip Spirit Lion totem Barbarian, and use a lance. You now have 2 lances dealing double damage on the charge, were you jump up with sudden leap and land full attacking and claiming high ground bonus.

Take it a step further by nabbing spirited charge and a +1 Valiours Lance and +1 Valorous Necklace of Natural weapons get x4 damage on both attacks.

I literally cannot understand how you calculated that. I don't use totem barbarians ever, so class stuff from that is unknown to me. I cannot use lances, im a horse...

[Darrin]

Insightful Strikes: At 4th level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus on damage rolls whenever you execute a strike from the chosen discipline. At 12th level, you can choose a second discipline to which this ability applies.

So, as long as the strike is not weapon specific, i can gain the damage bonus for the horn...

Yep. The "discipline weapons" are mostly for fluff. There are hardly any mechanical benefits for using a particular discipline weapon. Off the top of my head, the only three things that care about such things are the Blade Meditation feat, Shadow Blade feat, and the Superior TWF class feature from Bloodclaw Master.

If you absolutely had to make your horn into a discipline weapon... Necklace of Natural Weapons with either the Aptitude property (ToB) might work, or possibly the Morphing property (+1 enhancement, MIC), although in the latter case the rules kinda go a bit pear-shaped if you turn a natural weapon into a manufactured weapon.

Hmm. I was going to suggest trying to dip into Shiba Protector for "No Thought" (Oriental Adventures, adds Wis bonus to attack/damage), but that's a human-only PrC. Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) is kinda similar, but replaces your Str bonus with Wis bonus for attacks only.