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ken-do-nim
2007-01-27, 10:51 PM
He gave his big baddies the diehard feat. Then he gave them pesky sidekicks that cast "delay death" on them. The result? We couldn't take these guys out!!! For those who don't know, the delay death spell makes the target incapable of going below -9 hit points. However, it is usually a balanced spell because it doesn't prevent unconsciousness, but that's where diehard came in. The DM actually had to take pity on us and pretended that when these guys would have gone past -9 hp, they got dumb and mindless. But clearly by RAW this is the most unstoppable combo I have ever seen.

Did I mention that these guys were grapplers? So when a party member got grappled, we couldn't even kill the baddie to free them. One time the monk got off a stun to free one character, another baddie we dispel magicked to take him out, and the third the DM just quietly forgot about once the party left its immediate vicinity.

Gralamin
2007-01-27, 10:58 PM
There is no such spell as delay death (as far as I know).

edit: Spell compedium

Darkshade
2007-01-27, 10:59 PM
Diehard only protects you from the unconsciousness associated with real damage.
nonlethal damage, even a single point when there hp is -9 will knock them unconscious.
delay death, what is that Wizards handbook? thats no where near core, i doubt very much it is balanced in the least
if i could find a link to the description of the spell i could probably rip it apart a little more but the diehard bit is enough for me

Gralamin
2007-01-27, 11:04 PM
Delay Death has a short duration (7 rounds assuming minimum level). You keep on losing hitpoints during this time. Once it expires, the creature instantly dies. The trick is simple: kill the caster. If he casts on himself, dispel it.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-27, 11:07 PM
Diehard only protects you from the unconsciousness associated with real damage.
nonlethal damage, even a single point when there hp is -9 will knock them unconscious.

They always have at minimum zero points of nonlethal damage. I'd generally believe Diehard keeps you conscious until you're at HP + 10 nonlethal; otherwise, it doesn't make much sense.

That being said, unless "Delay Death" also means "Delay Unconsciousness," nonlethal damage will take them out quite quickly.

Darkshade
2007-01-27, 11:12 PM
EDIT:
i get what you mean now
okay so deal them 10 nonlethal damage and poof their out cold

ken-do-nim
2007-01-27, 11:15 PM
Nonlethal damage is an excellent idea. Thanks guys.

PS: The DM screwed up anyway because at negative hit points, you should be disabled, but he was still giving the baddies full attacks.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-27, 11:16 PM
Delay Death has a short duration (7 rounds assuming minimum level). You keep on losing hitpoints during this time. Once it expires, the creature instantly dies. The trick is simple: kill the caster. If he casts on himself, dispel it.

How does killing the caster help? And yes, we dispelled one of them, but there are only so many dispel magics any given wizard has memorized.

Aximili
2007-01-27, 11:20 PM
How does killing the caster help?
Avoids recastings.

Gralamin
2007-01-27, 11:24 PM
Exactly.
And may I make one thing clear:
Killing the caster Always Helps.

Darkshade
2007-01-27, 11:40 PM
may i make another thing clear:
Killing anybody on the other team Always Helps.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-28, 12:01 AM
But killing the caster always helps more.

Missing Shoe
2007-01-28, 12:13 AM
Watch out for those frenzied berserker. They have that combo as a class feature. Just as long as you ignore that crazy -2 non lethal damage thing every rnd that makes deathless frenzy actually pointless and worthless.

But that is a good combination. Thank your DM for me as I steal his idea.

Darkshade
2007-01-28, 12:17 AM
i wouldnt steal it, anything that uses that book is just silly, the cores plus the completes is more then enough power gaming for anyone who wants to play a reasonable game.

Aximili
2007-01-28, 12:19 AM
But killing the caster always helps more.
I'd always prefer to kill the level 1 barbarian before the level 1 wizard.

The_Snark
2007-01-28, 12:30 AM
I'd always prefer to kill the level 1 barbarian before the level 1 wizard.

Depends. Magic Missiles, not much to worry about. Sleep...?

...Yeah. Once had almost my entire party knocked out by that, except the wizard. Who was subsequently killed, while the rest were taken captive.

Aximili
2007-01-28, 12:44 AM
Sleep can be pretty nasty. But I'll rather take the risk of falling asleep (with the chance of being awakened the next round) than of taking heavy damage and going unconcious (or possibly dead) until someone heals me. Not to say that the level 1 mage has a few sleeps prepared, but the barbarian has unlimited swings of his axe.

And considering the area of effect, it's not a common event to have more than one ally affected by sleep at the same time.

The_Snark
2007-01-28, 12:52 AM
True, it does depend, and the wizard only has one or two tricks up his sleeve. So either one can be bad.

Dervag
2007-01-28, 12:54 AM
It's widely accepted that at low levels melee-types have power equal to or greater than that of casters, just as it is widely accepted that at medium and high levels the casters are more powerful than the melee-types. It's quite reasonable to be more afraid of the barbarian than the wizard at first level- though the wizard will be much, much easier to take down in one shot than the barbarian, so it may be worth firing your first shot at him to 'clear the field' and give you more options against the barbarian.

Wonton
2007-01-28, 02:12 AM
Exactly.
And may I make one thing clear:
Killing the caster Always Helps.


may i make another thing clear:
Killing anybody on the other team Always Helps.

I'm going to add a final clarification to this:

Killing anybody at all Always helps.
:smallbiggrin:

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-28, 04:58 AM
i wouldnt steal it, anything that uses that book is just silly, the cores plus the completes is more then enough power gaming for anyone who wants to play a reasonable game.

Yeah, that's only CoDzilla, wizards, Divine Metamagic, druids playing Force Dragon Tetris, Gate, Polymorph Any Object, Holy Word...

Man, other books would break things so much compared to that.

...??? (What?)

Ninja Chocobo
2007-01-28, 05:06 AM
druids playing Force Dragon Tetris
Ah, but it balances out. As soon as you get a row of them, they disappear.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-28, 08:07 AM
Ah, but it balances out. As soon as you get a row of them, they disappear.

Now that was funny!

Back to the main topic, I've decided that this is an abuse of the rules. Hit points have to mean something; they are not just numbers. So if I were DM, which in this case I was not, but I'd rule that diehard can only keep you conscious up to -9.

Or even if you were conscious, you would no longer be able to take actions past -9, because your limbs are falling off and your spine is probably snapped.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-28, 08:19 AM
Save or Dies solve this problem nicely.

tarbrush
2007-01-28, 10:01 AM
druids playing Force Dragon Tetris,

What's Force Dragon Tetris?

Mewtarthio
2007-01-28, 02:44 PM
What's Force Dragon Tetris?

It involves Shapechanging yourself into a Force Dragon (from the Epic Level Handbook: Basically a Dragon made out of the same stuff in Forcecage, more or less) and then sharing the Shapechange with your companion. Also, you can somehow turn your companion into an even bigger Force Dragon and ride on his back, but I forget how.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-28, 02:57 PM
Yeah, that's only CoDzilla, wizards, Divine Metamagic, druids playing Force Dragon Tetris, Gate, Polymorph Any Object, Holy Word...

Man, other books would break things so much compared to that.

...??? (What?)
Well, all Spell Compendium does is make the first three worse by giving Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and Sorcerors even more ridiculously overpowered spells.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-28, 03:03 PM
Well, all Spell Compendium does is make the first three worse by giving Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and Sorcerors even more ridiculously overpowered spells.

You've got a point. At least shapechange isn't something to worry about until druids & wizards reach level 17. Ray of stupidity, ray of dizziness, and even mass resist energy (only 3rd for clerics/druids) are all 3rd level and under.

Katasi
2007-01-28, 07:56 PM
i wouldnt steal it, anything that uses that book is just silly, the cores plus the completes is more then enough power gaming for anyone who wants to play a reasonable game.

RoS, RoD, and RoTW are all good to.