The Order 'want' Belkar dead?

[With a box]

at Girard's illusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html),
Belkar dies as you can see.
Based on the illusion shows what they want, I think it's safe to say the (at least) Roy,Elan, and Haley thinks death of Belkar as a part of happy ending.
(if one of them dosen't agree with, The illusion might be separated)

(i know they are part of the order, not whole but I cannot find the right shout for them)

[Loreweaver15]

Roy was extremely pissed off at him, and the illusion separated the groups into the simplest sets of unified happy endings, eliminating the other group from each group's illusion. Belkar and Mr Scruffy got to chill with a Resurrected Shojo, and the rest of them saw Belkar get fed a Meteor Swarm (thereby conveniently removing the question of 'what did we do with Belkar when we finished').

[With a box]

Roy was extremely pissed off at him, and the illusion separated the groups into the simplest sets of unified happy endings, eliminating the other group from each group's illusion. Belkar and Mr Scruffy got to chill with a Resurrected Shojo, and the rest of them saw Belkar get fed a Meteor Swarm (thereby conveniently removing the question of 'what did we do with Belkar when we finished').

If they wants to Belkar live, he will appear like V and Durkon appear in the illusion

[Ceaon]

They know Belkar is prophecised to breath his last breath ever. So if Belkar would stay alive, they would have woken up from the illusion easier.

[factotum]

They don't necessarily want him dead*, but the illusion had to be believable in order to capture them (disbelief is the reason Elan finally saw through it, remember), and there was no likely way that a level-drained and low on hitpoints Belkar was going to live when Xykon and Redcloak turned up--not to mention that Roy already knew from the Oracle's prophecy that Belkar was due to die shortly anyway, so that would have been another mark against the illusion's credibility.

* although frankly I wouldn't think any less of them if they *did*--Belkar is a repulsive little psychopath and the Stickverse will be a marginally better place when he is no longer in it.

[Kish]

at Girard's illusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html),
Belkar dies as you can see.
Based on the illusion shows what they want, I think it's safe to say the (at least) Roy,Elan, and Haley thinks death of Belkar as a part of happy ending.
(if one of them dosen't agree with, The illusion might be separated)

(i know they are part of the order, not whole but I cannot find the right shout for them)
Yes, Roy made it clear that he looks forward happily to Belkar's death right after he was resurrected, remember (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)?

In the vision, Belkar had just told a vicious and pointless lie about Durkon being turned into a vampire, thereby dissuading the rest of the Order from going to find him. Or to put it another way--Roy, Elan, and Haley, particularly the Roy part of Roy, Elan, and Haley, preferred "it turns out Belkar actually was lying about that, and then he dies" to "it turns out Durkon really is a vampire now."

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm not ruling out the possibility that Belkar is being set up to be the victim of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Let's look at how Belkar "died": Meteor Swarm to the face. Undoubtedly fatal, but it's something you can easily be raised from, seeing as how his body was otherwise left alone. But Roy doesn't sanction the raising. Why?

Because he's been told that Belkar will be dead dead before the year is out. Even if he knows that Belkar can be revived, he probably rationalises it that it's not worth blowing those diamonds to buy a few more weeks of life. That and Belkar is a problem the world no longer has to face.

So in the dream at least, Roy has been a patsy of the Oracle, gaining final revenge against Belkar by tricking his allies into not raising him. :smallbiggrin:

Now obviously, whether or not this is a thing in the final showdown will depend very much on how Belkar buys it.

[Gift Jeraff]

Elan didn't want Belkar to die, but he wasn't actively hoping that Belkar would NOT die like he was actively hoping to make peace with his family.

Roy's desire for Belkar to die (and knowledge that he WILL die) overrode Elan's "desire" for him to live, and that's not even taking Haley into account.

[xroads]

Roy and Haley at least are fine with Belkar dying. In fact, they are waiting for him too die (#666 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)). In their minds, death would be an awful convenient way to handle a psychopath who won’t remain behind bars.

[Roland Itiative]

It's not as much that they want him to die (though, at this point, at least Roy did), but that they expect him to die. Both Haley and Roy know about the prophecy, and that's already 2/3rds of the dream-making minds.

[Keltest]

I doubt that anybody is actively hoping for his death, since hes a useful little psychopath. But I doubt that Haley or Roy will shed any tears. Elan will, because hes Elan, and the jury is out on how much V values Belkar's "friendship". Durkon, being a vampire right now, is also a blank to me.

[Sir_Leorik]

I would say that Roy was completely fed up with Belkar at that point. He probably didn't want to believe that Durkon was murdered and Sired as a Vampire by Malack. He also had a prophecy straight from The Oracle the Belkar's life span was as short as a "Gauntlet" character told that he needs food by the arcade machine. Combine that with what the Deva told him about Belkar, and I would say that yes, Roy wouldn't shed a tear if Belkar dies in some stupid way. He was practically on the verge of bisecting the Halfling himself in comic #880.

I don't think Elan or Haley want Belkar dead. They're Chaotic, so they're less likely to take offense at some of the stuff Belkar does. Roy and Belkar have opposing Alignments (Lawful Good vs. Chaotic Evil) and that means the gulf between their worldviews is greater than anyone else in the party. Normally that wouldn't be enough to generate so much hostility, but some of Belkar's actions (such as murdering Solt Lurkyurg and the Oracle) were so heinous that most adventuring groups would have kicked him out ages ago. The fact that he's trying to fake character growth and being part of the team didn't win him any Brownie Points from Roy, because Roy feels like the hunters in the story "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". Belkar has pulled so many schemes, told so many lies, that at this point no one in the party is willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe Belkar's more recent actions, such as taming Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator, will give him more leeway, but Roy's attitude is one of waiting out the clock. When Belkar dies, whether it's a heroic death, a pointless death, or something he brings on himself, Roy will not allow him to be Raised. (That of course assumes that Belkar doesn't go out in a blaze of glory that saves the party, while annihilating his body, precluding a Raise Dead spell.)

[Heksefatter]

There is good evidence that at least Elan did not want Belkar dead. Look at the illusion here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html

It clearly shows Elan being saddened at Belkar's death. Roy and V clearly don't care in the slightest, while Haley and Durkon at least sympathize enough with Elan to be with him and mourn. They might also mourn him themselves, but I, personally, take it in the former sense. They at least have more consideration than Roy and V, though.

My reading is that:

- Elan mourns Belkar's death.
- Haley doesn't really care.
- Roy is fine with it.

Durkon and V are with Haley and Roy, respectively, but the illusion operates from what the others would expect them to do, rather than what they would do themselves. My guess, though, is that these expectations are accurate.

How does that square with the modus operandi of the illusion? In my view, there is no problem. Belkar's death at this stage was highly plausible, and the entire Order expected him to die. Furthermore, if it turned out that Belkar HAD been lying about Durkon being vamp'ed, the Order would plausibly not bother raising him. They'd be pissed off big time. So, for simplicity and plausibility, the illusion just creates a quick, easy and believable "disposal" of Belkar.

[Copperdragon]

Roy knows Belkar is a blight to the world that cannot be allowed to roam free. Roy is very happy about the prophecy, which will remove the question what to do with him and the ugly decision to either let him free to cause a lot of evil or fight him himself.
During the run of the comic Roy has made very clear what he thinks of Belkar.

I am also very certain Haley sees it similar, yet without the part of "it is my responsibility to resolve it". Yet she also sees the prophecy as a very elegant solution to a very big problem.

Elan is not going to see it as "needs to die" but knows "The world would be a better place without Belkar". He would never consciously formulate it as "Belkar needs to die" but I am very certain that he is very happy with his unconscious solution that Belkar "just happens to die in the fight" and as such the problem has resolved itself. He's sad because he might consider Belkar as "some sort of friend", but he'd know it's the best solution and then move on with his life. Probably after erecting a kick-ass grave for Belkar but he would move on...

I do not know what stance Vaarsuvius has. It could swing both ways, either letting Belkar go free to zap him at the word of Roy. When it comes to a fight, Vaarsuvius would help kill Belkar without a second thought, as he knows what horrible monster the halfling is.

Durkon would side with Roy, without any second thought. He knows Belkar needs to be removed from the world unless he wants to unleash a great evil.

So while a lot of people answered cautiously in this thread, I do the opposite. If you ask if The Order wants Belkar dead (in the long run) I loudly and clearly answer: Yes, they do want just that.

[Sir_Leorik]

Durkon would side with Roy, without any second thought. He knows Belkar needs to be removed from the world unless he wants to unleash a great evil.

Durkon is a "great Evil" himself at the moment. I have a feeling that many repressed emotions that Durkon has been bottling up will erupt when the Order arrive in Dwarven Lands. On the other hand, Durkon might consider Belkar to be quite tasty, since Belkar was Durkon's first meal as a Vampire. Maybe he could have Belkar "likker up" first, and then Durkon can enjoy a beer with Belkar's blood. :smalltongue:

[Ghost Nappa]

I would say that Roy was completely fed up with Belkar at that point. He probably didn't want to believe that Durkon was murdered and Sired as a Vampire by Malack. He also had a prophecy straight from The Oracle the Belkar's life span was as short as a "Gauntlet" character told that he needs food by the arcade machine. Combine that with what the Deva told him about Belkar, and I would say that yes, Roy wouldn't shed a tear if Belkar dies in some stupid way. He was practically on the verge of bisecting the Halfling himself in comic #880.

I don't Elan or Haley want Belkar dead. They're Chaotic, so they're less likely to take offense at some of the stuff Belkar does. Roy and Belkar have opposing Alignments (Lawful Good vs. Chaotic Evil) and that means the gulf between their worldviews is greater than anyone else in the party. Normally that wouldn't be enough to generate so much hostility, but some of Belkar's actions (such as murdering Solt Lurkyurg and the Oracle) were so heinous that most adventuring groups would have kicked him out ages ago. The fact that he's trying to fake character growth and being part of the team didn't win him any Brownie Points from Roy, because Roy feels like the hunters in the story "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". Belkar has pulled so many schemes, told so many lies, that at this point no one in the party is willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe Belkar's more recent actions, such as taming Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator, will give him more leeway, but Roy's attitude is one of waiting out the clock. When Belkar dies, whether it's a heroic death, a pointless death, or something he brings on himself, Roy will not allow him to be Raised. (That of course assumes that Belkar doesn't go out in a blaze of glory that saves the party, while annihilating his body, precluding a Raise Dead spell.)

I think right now, by the time we get to Belkar's death, the party's feelings will be ambiguous towards Belkar. I think that Belkar will be given a definitive chance at redemption - I have no thoughts on whether or not he'll realize it; let alone take it - but his recent actions suggest that he values being chaotic slightly more than being evil. I think his sentiments towards Mr. Scruffy and Bloodfeast will prelude a sort of Heroic Sacrifice that ultimately saves the day, and that Belkar's death will have everyone involved will be unsure of what to say about him: he has been an amoral, psychopathic serial killer for so long that any sort of meaningful heroics on his part will stump - at least - momentarily if and how his death should be honored.

I have a couple of meta-reasons or this. The commentary for Miko's fall was rather clear: most characters either are redeemed in the end, or fall harder. Miko was intended to be an exploration of a character who does not get the time to do either. But Belkar is of an Order of important higher than Miko, and I do think his death will be related to a decision he or someone makes regarding said redemption.

My main concern is whether or not such a thing is possible, because the way I have it in my mind right now, such an ending is pushing on bittersweet territory and I'm not sure if it can co-exist with Elan's happy ending.

To answer the question of the OP in far less words: I do not think the Order want Belkar dead, but when and how he does die, neither Roy or Haley expect to be devastated by it.

[Sir_Leorik]

I think that right now, by the time we get to Belkar's death, the party's feelings will be ambiguous towards Belkar. I think that Belkar will be given a definitive chance at redemption - I have no thoughts on whether or not he'll realize it; let alone take it - but his recent actions suggest that he values being chaotic slightly more than being evil. I think his sentiments towards Mr. Scruffy and Bloodfeast will prelude a sort of Heroic Sacrifice that ultimately saves the day, and that Belkar's death will have everyone involved will be unsure of what to say about him: he has been an amoral, psychopathic serial killer for so long that any sort of meaningful heroics on his part will stump - at least - momentarily if and how his death should be honored.

I have a couple of meta-reasons or this. The commentary for Miko's fall was rather clear: most characters either are redeemed in the end, or fall harder. Miko was intended to be an exploration of a character who does not get the time to do either. But Belkar is of an Order of important higher than Miko, and I do think his death will be related to a decision he or someone makes regarding said redemption.

My main concern is whether or not such a thing is possible, because the way I have it in my mind right now, such an ending is pushing on bittersweet territory and I'm not sure if it can co-exist with Elan's happy ending.

To answer the question of the OP in far less words: I do not think the Order want Belkar dead, but when and how he does die, neither Roy or Haley expect to be devastated by it.

I partially agree that Belkar is going through real character growth, albeit slowly, but I don't think his arc is about redemption. I think that's Vaarsuvius' arc; she is beginning to realize the extent of her actions when she made the Faustian deal with the IFCC Directors and cast Familicide, and wishes to atone for those actions. Whether or not she attains redemption is still up in the air.

Likewise, I think that right now, Roy would not be bothered if Belkar choked on a baguette. Whether your prediction, that when Belkar does die Roy will be affected, is still a possibility, but it depends on Belkar's actions in Book Six.

[Copperdragon]

Durkon is a "great Evil" himself at the moment.

Yes, I think it all depends on how much "Durkon" is left in Durcula. But even if Vampire Durkon is fully evil, I doubt he'd side with Belkar just for the sake of "We're an Evil Family".
So at best the current Durkon would stay out of it. The more of the old Durkon is conserved in the Vampire Durkon the worse it gets for Belkar. Durkon was Lawful to the bone, that alone makes him having a problem with Belkar. If his current alignment is more complex than "I'm just LE" but if he has values of old Durkon left over and adds that to his new alignment, it'll be very bad for Durkon. Given the author who writes this is making the alignment system more complex than "I am evil!" it does not look good for Belkar.

I think Vampire Durkon is an evil, vampire version of Durkon as he was. So values and opinions that are not tied to his new form as bloodsucking abomination should stay intact.

[maximus]

See... I keep coming back to two basic facts:

Overall, OOTS is a comedy.
Things don't always work out exactly how Roy would like them to work out.

Because of those two things, I think that there is going to be some sort of twist about the prophecy that we aren't seeing yet and that Belkar won't really end up dead. It's going to be one of those crazy semantics things...

[Sir_Leorik]

See... I keep coming back to two basic facts:

Overall, OOTS is a comedy.
Things don't always work out exactly how Roy would like them to work out.

Because of those two things, I think that there is going to be some sort of twist about the prophecy that we aren't seeing yet and that Belkar won't really end up dead. It's going to be one of those crazy semantics things...

The Oracle made several comments about Belkar:

"... and if I happen to let slip, say, that the Halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)

"Well, I'm just thinking he should savor his next birthday cake. 'Nuff said." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)

At any rate your pal isn't long for this world, so I saw no reason not to have my fun where I could. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

"Belkar will draw his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

Those aren't semantics. They're euphemisms intended to indicate that Belkar will die. And the last comment is as explicit as possible. So unless the Oracle meant that Belkar will have be polymorphed into a fish, not be able enjoy cake and lose money in the stock market, the Oracle was cryptically referring to Belkar Bittlerleaf's impending demise.

[Grey Watcher]

Maybe on some level Roy and Haley do want Belkar dead. Not in the sense of that they're scheming and plotting to engineer his demise, but simply insofar as that they know he's pretty firmly beyond any sort of redemption, that he's going to die soon anyway, and it would be something of a relief not to have to keep him on a leash anymore. (I sort of feel like Haley, despite having handed the reins back to Roy upon his resurrection, still feels some responsibility to keep on eye on Belkar.)

If this is so, it's certainly not the noblest side of Roy's personality. But in real life, he is doing the right thing by keeping Belkar in check and directing his violent outbursts at appropriate targets, when he could go all Miko Miyazaki and just eviscerate Belkar himself. Having Xykon kill Belkar is the illusion catering to this tension: it alleviates the party's need to babysit Belkar without making any of them responsible for his death. (That, plus the illusion detecting incompatible Happily Ever Afters needs to find a way to separate out the incompatible elements.)

Anyway, I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced of this myself, but it's an angle to consider, I suppose. :smallconfused:

[Sir_Leorik]

Maybe on some level Roy and Haley do want Belkar dead. Not in the sense of that they're scheming and plotting to engineer his demise, but simply insofar as that they know he's pretty firmly beyond any sort of redemption, that he's going to die soon anyway, and it would be something of a relief not to have to keep him on a leash anymore. (I sort of feel like Haley, despite having handed the reins back to Roy upon his resurrection, still feels some responsibility to keep on eye on Belkar.)

If this is so, it's certainly not the noblest side of Roy's personality. But in real life, he is doing the right thing by keeping Belkar in check and directing his violent outbursts at appropriate targets, when he could go all Miko Miyazaki and just eviscerate Belkar himself.

It demonstrates that Roy isn't perfect, something he's keenly aware of, but he's working to improve himself. Not skewering Belkar probably requires a lot of self-restraint. Likewise, it requires a lot of strength of will to keep the psychotic Halfling in the group, despite knowing what he's like, in an attempt to keep his carnage directed at bad guys. Compare that to Haley's reaction to Belkar murdering Solt Lurkyurg, or her kicking Belkar out of the Order after Belkar murdered the Oracle. (Although the Oracle's memory charm did allow Rich to keep the status quo, he showed that there are limits to what Haley would allow Belkar to get away with.)

By contrast, Elan seems to like Belkar, at least on some level. The two of them have bonded, enough that Belkar was willing to rescue Elan from Samantha and her Bandits, despite Belkar threatening to kill Elan for XP just days before. Belkar and Elan both have mercurial moods, with Elan's being pleasant ones and Belkar's being unpleasant ones. But that mercurial nature does give them a common ground to be friends.

Vaarsuvius does not care for Belkar. She remembers "the incident", and while she no longer attempts to "experiment" on Belkar with Explosive Runes, she would not shed a tear if the Halfling dies.

That leaves Durkon, the Lawful Evil Vampire Dwarf Cleric. Durkon and Belkar rarely got along well, but they were able to bond over lots of alcohol. But maybe Durkon will be less tolerant of Belkar's antics now. The jokes about Durkon's beard, body odor, Dwarven heritage; those may all spur Durkon to seek revenge. And I don't see him caring if Belkar lives or dies, unlike every other member of the party, whom Durkon still has fond feelings towards. Durkon may not kill Belkar (after all, the team needs the little blighter) but maybe he might use his Dominating Gaze to make Belkar do something embarrassing, or summon a swarm of rats while Belkar is feeding Mr. Scruffy, who will steal the fish or cat food Belkar is feeding the cat. There are lots of possibilities, though it depends on how much Belkar ticks off Durkon.

[Gift Jeraff]

Vaarsuvius does not care for Belkar. She remembers "the incident", and while she no longer attempts to "experiment" on Belkar with Explosive Runes, she would not shed a tear if the Halfling dies.I think V has grown to somewhat like Belkar.

S/he almost called him a friend back in the arena, and s/he helped him satisfy his vengeance against Yukyuk. I would also imagine that V realizes s/he is no longer in a position to look down on Belkar for being a murderer that has trouble understanding that others have a right to exist.

[Sir_Leorik]

I think V has grown to somewhat like Belkar.

S/he almost called him a friend back in the arena, and s/he helped him satisfy his vengeance against Yukyuk. I would also imagine that V realizes s/he is no longer in a position to look down on Belkar for being a murderer that has trouble understanding that others have a right to exist.

Good points. Still, even if V no longer hates Belkar, and can even empathize with him, she is not going to advocate for Raising him when he dies.

[ThePhantasm]

Perhaps they want Scruffy to die too. The poor cat gets torched.

[Loreweaver15]

Also, I can't go into this topic without reading "The Order wants Belkar dead with a box???"

[martianmister]

Roy is on the corner. Belkar and his cat are too dangerous for other peoples' wellbeing, and neither Roy or others want to be their warden anymore. Belkar has to die.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Well when the army was fighting them, Roy was urgentlytrying to protect Belkar. So it wasn't is if Roy wanted him dead.

It was more or less that Roy expected Belkar to die, and Belkars fate didn't have as much bearing on his happy ending as Durkons would of. So the easy route for the illusion to take, was to have Belkar die.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that the Order did not want Belkar dead. However, in the back of his head, Roy knew that Belkar would die before the end of the year, so that went into the illusion. I think Roy also knew that at some point Belkar would probably become too dangerous to live, probably after the world was saved, so the illusion removed the moral quandary of possibly having to kill Belkar by eliminating him early on, thus making it a happier ending.