Saves granted by Multiclassing (3.5)

[SinsI]

1st level of Fighter gives you +2 Fort Save, +1 BAB and a bonus Fighter feat
2nd level of Fighter gives you+1 Fort Save, +1 BAB and a bonus Fighter feat

In other words, 2nd level is the same as 1st level, only grants 1 less Fortitude Save.
So why would you want to get Fighter 2 when you can play a multiclassed Fighter 1/ Fighter 1?

Multiclassed characters can have far greater Saves than anything possible for a single-classed character - even if it is supposed to be his "Good" save.
This makes it impossible to balance challenges - as any monster that has abilities tuned assuming players have taken all their levels in a single class will be a walk in a park for heavily multiclassed characters.

Was there any justification for such a disparity?

[molten_dragon]

So why would you want to get Fighter 2 when you can play a multiclassed Fighter 1/ Fighter 1?

Well first off, that's not allowed. You can't take level 1 of fighter twice. Multiclassing only works when you're taking multiple classes, hence the name. Or do you simply mean taking another melee class that grants good fort saves? Like fighter 1/Barbarian 1.


Multiclassed characters can have far greater Saves than anything possible for a single-classed character - even if it is supposed to be his "Good" save.

Keep in mind though that you do so at the expense of your poor saves. Look at the extreme case. Let's say you have a 20th level character who has taken 1 level in 20 different classes, each of which grants a good fortitude save, and a poor reflex and will save. That character's base fort save bonus would be +40, but his base reflex and will saves would be +0.

Personally, I don't find that sort of thing to be that big a deal in my games. Most people won't take levels in enough different classes to put them all that far ahead of a single-classed character.

I've played in a couple games before that used a houserule that fixes that issue though. They used the fractional BAB and saves variant from unearthed arcana but ruled that you could only get the +2 bonus to a good save once for each type of save. So if you had a barbarian 1/fighter 1, he would have a base fort save of +3 (+2.5 from barbarian 1 and +0.5 from fighter 1).

[TuggyNE]

1st level of Fighter gives you +2 Fort Save, +1 BAB and a bonus Fighter feat
2nd level of Fighter gives you+1 Fort Save, +1 BAB and a bonus Fighter feat

In other words, 2nd level is the same as 1st level, only grants 1 less Fortitude Save.
So why would you want to get Fighter 2 when you can play a multiclassed Fighter 1/ Fighter 1?

Mostly because you can only take any given level of a class once, including variants. Thus you cannot be a Conjurer 1/Transmuter 5, much as you might wish to; you only get one instance of Wizard to advance.


Multiclassed characters can have far greater Saves than anything possible for a single-classed character - even if it is supposed to be his "Good" save.
This makes it impossible to balance challenges - as any monster that has abilities tuned assuming players have taken all their levels in a single class will be a walk in a park for heavily multiclassed characters.

Was there any justification for such a disparity?

I'm not sure. When fractional saves were deployed, they deliberately kept that feature in, which suggests there was some sort of idea, but I don't know what the purpose was.

Let's be fair, though: +2 on your good save is not really gamebreaking, even if you get it five times over. Most encounter imbalance is from other things like class selection, magic items, poor monster design, and so on.

[prufock]

So why would you want to get Fighter 2 when you can play a multiclassed Fighter 1/ Fighter 1?
:smallconfused:
Because you can't multiclass if you aren't taking, you know, multiple classes. You can't take the same level twice.

[SinsI]

Well first off, that's not allowed. You can't take level 1 of fighter twice. Multiclassing only works when you're taking multiple classes, hence the name. Or do you simply mean taking another melee class that grants good fort saves? Like fighter 1/Barbarian 1.

Let's assume so, although inability to take multiple copies of the same chassis in D&D is arguable, even if PHB directly says so. The problem is just more obvious with the same class.



Keep in mind though that you do so at the expense of your poor saves. Look at the extreme case. Let's say you have a 20th level character who has taken 1 level in 20 different classes, each of which grants a good fortitude save, and a poor reflex and will save. That character's base fort save bonus would be +40, but his base reflex and will saves would be +0.

For 20 single class level character, his base reflex and will would still be only +6.
It's really not hard to get +34 Good / +6 Poor /+6 Poor by doing 3 dips to improve the character's Poor saves.

Plus there are classes with all Good saves.

[nedz]

I've encountered arguments like this before. The main point they miss is that: yes it is possible to find rules exploits with 3.5, this however is small beer compared to most. Also, the likely impact of this feature of the rules is that it makes casters weaker since their spells will be more likely to be saved against. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

The fix BTW is to use fractional saves.

Also: your maths is wrong. Assuming you could find 10 different classes all with good Fort and poor Will and Reflex saves; the answer would be +40/+0/+0

Plus there are classes with all Good saves.

Several: Monk and Favoured Soul, possibly others.

[SinsI]

t. Also, the likely impact of this feature of the rules is that it makes casters weaker since their spells will be more likely to be saved against. This is not necessarily a bad thing.
It makes high level monsters much, much weaker, effectively making most of their abilities useless against such characters. Which is a huge challenge design problem.

[eggynack]

The fix BTW is to use fractional saves.

The fix to what? Fractional saves make it so that dipping doesn't kill your bad saves, but it doesn't stop the save bonus to good saves from dipping at all. In fact, it makes it worse, increasing that bonus from +2 to +2.5.

[Chronos]

The rule stopping you from going Fighter 1/Fighter 1 is the same rule as the rule that stops you from taking Wizard 20 as your first level. Every level, you pick a class to take, and your level in that class increases by 1. If you're already a Fighter 1 and choose Wizard, then your wizard level increases from 0 to 1, and you're now a Fighter 1/Wizard 1. If you're already a Fighter 1 and choose Fighter, then your fighter level increases from 1 to 2, and you're now a Fighter 2.

[The Cat Goddess]

Meh.

Sure, multi-classing can get you good saves... You know what it doesn't get you?

High level spells, high level maneuvers (in Tome of Battle), stronger turning abilities, more dice of sneak attack, etc., etc.

It would not be difficult for me to create a level 20 melee character with ~+30 Fort, ~+30 Ref, ~+20 Will. I might even have qualified for a Prestige Class or two during all that. Of course, I'll have a BAB of +10, maybe +12 and generally be much weaker than the guy who took 2 levels of Rogue for Evade, or the Barbarian who can Rage multiple times per day, or the Warblade who can do +10d6 on an attack, and so on...

But yeah, I'll sure make my saves! :yuk:

[eggynack]

Meh.

Sure, multi-classing can get you good saves... You know what it doesn't get you?

High level spells, high level maneuvers (in Tome of Battle), stronger turning abilities, more dice of sneak attack, etc., etc.

It would not be difficult for me to create a level 20 melee character with ~+30 Fort, ~+30 Ref, ~+20 Will. I might even have qualified for a Prestige Class or two during all that. Of course, I'll have a BAB of +10, maybe +12 and generally be much weaker than the guy who took 2 levels of Rogue for Evade, or the Barbarian who can Rage multiple times per day, or the Warblade who can do +10d6 on an attack, and so on...

But yeah, I'll sure make my saves! :yuk:
Some builds like multiclassing. Usually builds of the mundane variety, sometimes even if you include ToB. Those classes dip well, after all. Unless you have some sort of ACF based reason, you're not going more than two levels in either barbarian or fighter anyway, and you get nice bonuses for that. Maybe after that you dip a level of cloistered cleric, picking up some free feats and a pair of save boosts, and then maybe you go over to warblade, and then perhaps you can angle your way over to a prestige class, like runescarred berserker or champion of gwynharwyf. I think you're asking the wrong questions, in other words. You shouldn't ask, "How can I build a character that dips a bunch of classes without losing all effectiveness?" You should ask, "What kind of builds were already dipping like crazy, and how do the saves on those builds look?"

[SinsI]

Meh.

Sure, multi-classing can get you good saves... You know what it doesn't get you?

High level spells, high level maneuvers (in Tome of Battle), stronger turning abilities, more dice of sneak attack, etc., etc.

It would not be difficult for me to create a level 20 melee character with ~+30 Fort, ~+30 Ref, ~+20 Will. I might even have qualified for a Prestige Class or two during all that. Of course, I'll have a BAB of +10, maybe +12 and generally be much weaker than the guy who took 2 levels of Rogue for Evade, or the Barbarian who can Rage multiple times per day, or the Warblade who can do +10d6 on an attack, and so on...

But yeah, I'll sure make my saves! :yuk:
For a single class even "good" saves only grant +10 over 19 levels, while for multiclasss each new class instantly gives them at least +2.

You don't have to take exactly 1 level in each class, and they don't have to all be base classes. So there's absolutely no problem with high level spells or sneak attack dice and decent maneuvers (not enough prestige classes to fill all levels for these). Even with no fractional BAB you can just grab 3 levels for Average or 2 levels for Poor BAB - and still be better than any single class can be.

[bekeleven]

The fix to what? Fractional saves make it so that dipping doesn't kill your bad saves, but it doesn't stop the save bonus to good saves from dipping at all. In fact, it makes it worse, increasing that bonus from +2 to +2.5.

Most people on the PbP forums rule that you only get the +2 bump once, and each subsequent level granting only +.5

I tend to prefer simplified calculations, something like: Total save is Good Progression (levels in good progression) + Bad Progression (levels in bad progression). So for instance, if you have 8 levels in good fort save and 5 levels in bad fort save, 6+1=7. Mostly because I've done enough calculus that I forgot how to add fractions.

[nedz]

Most people on the PbP forums rule that you only get the +2 bump once, and each subsequent level granting only +.5

Yes, this houserule is so common I forgot it wasn't RAW.