Heroes of the Storm

[Loreweaver15]

Huh.

Apparently, Blizzard is making a MOBA called Heroes of the Storm (http://www.heroesofthestorm.com/en-us), Smash Bros-style.

Discuss!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I've signed up to be opted into the closed beta, whenever it comes out. Excited to see what it looks like! I've enjoyed LoL, buuut I don't have the will to devote all my free time to mastering it, and it has quite a learning curve. If Magic:Hearthstone::LoL:Heroes of the Storm, I will be exceptionally happy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

HotS will get confused with other HotS, so from now on, we shall abbreviate it as HeotS! ...Wait... *checks full names* Damn you Blizzard! *shakes fist in anger*

HotSt?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

What about Raynor vs. the Lich King? RvLK?

[ryuplaneswalker]

I am hoping we get to see some minion options, one thing that bores me about a moba is that you can't customize your minions at all, I know it would be awkward but I don't care!

[Loreweaver15]

I'm hoping for a Necromancer, myself. I was a straight Summonancer in DII.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'm hoping for a Necromancer, myself. I was a straight Summonancer in DII.
Well, the Lich King will, in fact, be playable. One of his ultimate attack options is summoning an undead army.

[ryuplaneswalker]

we will probably get "Representatives" for each Diablo class, Dunno if there was an NPC in diablo 2 or 3 who was a "Hey guize, I am the Necromancer NPC, look at what cool things necromancers can do, you wanna roll a necromancer now right" character.

[Loreweaver15]

we will probably get "Representatives" for each Diablo class, Dunno if there was an NPC in diablo 2 or 3 who was a "Hey guize, I am the Necromancer NPC, look at what cool things necromancers can do, you wanna roll a necromancer now right" character.

There was one in each, actually.

And CarpeGuitarrem, I don't care about the Lich King. I've never enjoyed World of Warcraft; I am specifically hoping for a Diablo Necromancer.

[ryuplaneswalker]

well then you might get your Necromancer, I personally hope the "single player" is better than LoLs, I would derp about with Dota 2, but the graphics are so ugly..and LoL has utterly gutted ANY fun in playing single player against bots in the past year.

[Loreweaver15]

well then you might get your Necromancer, I personally hope the "single player" is better than LoLs, I would derp about with Dota 2, but the graphics are so ugly..and LoL has utterly gutted ANY fun in playing single player against bots in the past year.

Also, they've already made a character out of the PC Demon Hunter and Witch Doctor classes, not gonna be surprised if there's one for each of the eleven unique PC classes between 2 and 3 in a MOBA that needs as many characters as it can get.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

And CarpeGuitarrem, I don't care about the Lich King. I've never enjoyed World of Warcraft; I am specifically hoping for a Diablo Necromancer.
Oh, gotcha. That makes sense.

I don't really have any attachments to the characters, so I'm just interested to see what's out there. (Although I played enough of Starcraft to know that Jim Raynor is pretty cool. Also, Nova looks neat. Plus NUKES.)

[ryuplaneswalker]

Part of me wants to play Lich King simply because if he has a move called defile I can GIGGLE MADLY while I use it.

For those who do not know Defile was a move that started with a small puddle that dealt damage if yous stood in it, each time it dealt damage it grew bigger, it was probably the thing that killed more Lich King raids than almost anything else.

[Karoht]

Elite Tauren Chieftan FTW.
Songs.
Stage Dive.
Lots of fun.

I don't think they are doing much for a single player (beyond a standard 'here are some bots' thing).

As for playing with other people, they are doing their best to make it less problematic. Team experience means no one gets left behind, no one is forced to lane, supports can remain back at base (or further back from the fight) and work remotely. You win as a team or you lose as a team, that's the motto.

Abathur is probably the character I am most interested in OTHER than ETC. He's a support, he works by jumping into the bodies of other heroes and doing stuff (without impeding the hero he's possessed in any way), mostly works with heals/shields/buffs and some ranged attacks.

I got to play as Tyriel at Blizzcon, he was lots of fun. Tanky, smashy, shiney lights, very cool.

They are also hard at work trying very hard to perfect another character, the Lost Vikings. Yes, you will control all 3 at once, yes, they do different stuff each.

@Lich King
I am reasonably sure I saw a Defile puddle during a match. Pretty sure it is an option.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Team XP is a tremendously helpful feature. At the very least, it makes it harder to single out people as "not pulling their weight"...and at the best, it makes healbots more viable! No need to worry about giving them opportunities to feed on minions!

[Karoht]

They keep flip flopping on Turrets having ammo or not having ammo. Curious to see how that is going to pan out.

@Creepers
I think they said they would be unique to the maps. Might be a customizeable thing though. Same with turrets.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I got to play as Tyriel at Blizzcon, he was lots of fun. Tanky, smashy, shiney lights, very cool.

So...I guess....I have no idea how to narrow this down, but what were the biggest points of divergence from League of Legends or other MOBAs? What makes the game more accessible to, say, someone who doesn't have massive time to invest in the game?

[Gandariel]

Any idea of when it's coming out?

Also, i feel like This is an obligatory link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ecv0bT9DEo)

[Karoht]

So...I guess....I have no idea how to narrow this down, but what were the biggest points of divergence from League of Legends or other MOBAs? What makes the game more accessible to, say, someone who doesn't have massive time to invest in the game?Characters seemed really easy and intuitive to learn, controls weren't complicated, objective based combat means it's easy to tell what you need to be doing at any given point in time, easy to tell if your enemies are out of position.
No item system yet, they may in time impliment one but for now it isn't a focus.
You can hop onto a mount and be anywhere on a map quickly and easily making it really fluid to run to someone's rescue, lots of mobility based powers as well to help with this.
Team XP meant no team member is left behind, skill tree is adaptable rather than a fixed bunch of abilities, roles are flexible (IE-Burst Damage Tank VS Mobility Tank VS Support Tank) and in some cases those roles are not fixed on that one character. IE-ETC is a mobility tank who can skill tree into support or burst. Arthas is a Burst Tank who can skill tree into Support or Resilience (more tanky).
Map objectives are more important than kill count. The pirate ship map was a great example. If my team buys the pirate ship it begins a bombardment. That bombardment is a serious thing. And it targets all over the map, including your base and towers (even if no one is there). You really really don't want to let the other team get that.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Ooh my goodness. That sounds so wonderful. Especially the objective-based combat.

[Karoht]

@Objective Based Combat
So many MOBA's really only have one objective, destroy the enemy base. So the maps, while different, really don't make an incredible amount of difference, except maybe to the jungler role.
Maps are supposed to make major differences to every game in HotS.
It also makes things a heck of a lot less boring.

@Turrets and Ammo/Non-Ammo
They said they've been playing with lots of iterations on this one.
-No ammo, infinite shots
-No ammo, a limited amount of shots which refresh every 30 seconds (IE-10 shots at 1 shot /1.5 seconds, wait 10 seconds, more shots) and variations
-Ammo amount, hard cap (IE-200 shots maximum per turret)
-Ammo amount, regeneration (IE-200 shots at start of the match, every 5 seconds the turret isn't being attacked it gains 1 shot) and variations
-Ammo amount, hard cap, reclaim ammo based on objectives (IE-Take out a turret and gain 20 ammo for all other turrets) and variations
-Different turrets at different areas (so the first one that the enemy would encounter on a lane has 50 shots, the next has 75, the next has 100, the one nearest to the base has 200)
-Different turret rules for each map (they said they aren't keen on this one, too confusing, turrets they want to be a fixed point rather than another map variable, but some maps with different turret rules might be a thing).
-Make your own map system means will have the option to edit the turrets as well, including chaining them to events (IE-Destroy a thing and all turrets are turned off for a short while)

@Release Date
Blizzard-"Soon(TM)"
It's in internal testing/closed beta currently. At Blizzcon they said they were shooting for early 2015.
They moved some people from the SCII team over to work on it, Dustin Browder has been on it from the get go. Bear in mind that this "game" started out as a single map for SCII as a test for the map and matchmaking system, and was primarily tested at previous Blizzcon's before being announced as a separte game prior to Blizzcon 2013. Like Hearthstone, the team working on HotS isn't huge, from what Dustin said at Blizzcon.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Look at what MMO Champ has dug up (http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/3767-Heroes-of-the-Storm-Alpha-Client)

The "Objectives" Look nifty, especially the mines one.

[Karoht]

Look at what MMO Champ has dug up (http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/3767-Heroes-of-the-Storm-Alpha-Client)

The "Objectives" Look nifty, especially the mines one.
The mines one is neat. I personally got to try the Dragon Temple one (where you turn into the amazing awesome Dragon Knight! Rawwwwrrr!!!!) and the pirate one. Those cannons... they wreck stuff. The Dragon Knight? Super awesome, damn near unstoppable and just wrecks stuff. ETC managed to get the Dragon Knight, 3 of us were clustered, he used Stage Dive to leap across the map and just took us apart. With rock music. And a Dragon Knight to the face. I applauded the guy for pulling that off.

[ryuplaneswalker]

oh abilities are now up

*looks at arthas*

....well *sits in the corner and waits for Koltiara to come out*

[Karoht]

The opening cinematic reveal at Blizzcon was awesome. Crowd went nuts.
Then there was this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iY_olSZ1Lw

[Weimann]

I'm tentatively looking forward to this. The only other MOBA I've been able to get into is Awesomenauts, and that's hardly a standard one. On the other hand, I'm up for a mix of Blizzard franchises and I've heard they're looking to lower the entrance thresholds. It could go either way. I'm fairly certain I will at least try it out.

[Weimann]

Any idea of when it's coming out?

Also, i feel like This is an obligatory link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ecv0bT9DEo)That one is pretty cool, yeah. I still shiver a bit when Arthas points Frostmourne at me in that way he does. Dude is creepy.

I have to wonder what the deal with the sniper chick is though? Did they go out of their way to make her silly?

[Karoht]

Nova? Read the comics, she's silly when she can afford to show off. When she can't, all business.

Oh yeah, one other thing. Game length is 15-20 minutes. Other MOBA's average 30-45 minutes or longer. The idea is to keep games quick and decisive rather than they drag on and on. When games are short, people are more likely to pick it up.

Also, like Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm is going to be free to play. Separate game, you won't need Starcraft II or anything like that to play it.
Some people saw the UI screenshots on MMO-champion.com and freakouts so I thought I'd best make that clear.

[Weimann]

Mmmyeah, I don't know. I'm getting bad vibes from her. Hopefully they'll balance up the roster with a greater variety of characters.

[Karoht]

Mmmyeah, I don't know. I'm getting bad vibes from her. Hopefully they'll balance up the roster with a greater variety of characters.
How dare a character be silly in a non-canon setting in a Blizzard game.

INB4 Murlocs, Murloc Marine, Murkablo, Murloc Crusader, and Baby Murloc.
INB4 Level 90 Elite Tauren Chieftan (the band)

Go to mmo-champion.com they have all the characters and their abilities on the front page. You may have to scroll down ever so slightly.

[Weimann]

How dare a character be silly in a non-canon setting in a Blizzard game.

INB4 Murlocs, Murloc Marine, Murkablo, Murloc Crusader, and Baby Murloc.
INB4 Level 90 Elite Tauren Chieftan (the band)Right, I suppose. I guess it was just the fact that everyone else was all badass combat rage except the chick in skin-tight suit who instead get to throw kisses around. It really stood out, and I consider it to easily be the worst aspect of the cinematic. Hopefully, it won't be reflected that way in the game.


Go to mmo-champion.com they have all the characters and their abilities on the front page. You may have to scroll down ever so slightly.Sweet, I will. Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Karoht]

Right, I suppose. I guess it was just the fact that everyone else was all badass combat rage except the chick in skin-tight suit who instead get to throw kisses around. It really stood out, and I consider it to easily be the worst aspect of the cinematic. Hopefully, it won't be reflected that way in the game.The cinematic (and the game) would be really bland if that was all anyone did. It's one of the things Blizzard is rather good at, throwing just enough levity into a serious concept. The get that they make games, games are supposed to be fun.

But if you are as insistant that things be serious all the time, I hope you don't stumble onto the picture of Diablo riding one of the rainbow horses from Whimseyshire.
Actually, I think the entire team was riding those, come to think of it.

Besides, after nuking something back to the stone age, what are you doing?

[ryuplaneswalker]

This is not the first time Blizzard put a bit of Comedy in their trailers

and frankly the MOP trailer was awesome. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvYXoyxLv64)

Also, I do not think it is "silly" to give someone a Kiss of when you just finished painting them with a nuke, that is more of a taunt to say "Haha screw you!"

[Weimann]

I hear what you're saying but I still don't like it. Sorry. :smalltongue: It's just really out of place, and seems to only be there to make her look cute and flirty. Which she doesn't need.

I don't know, maybe I'm just a silly feminist who takes things too seriously. Just can't help seeing the structures, and let's just say this cinematic fits right into them. I'm going to leave this discussion and hope that the game will be better on that front.

[The Glyphstone]

I guess if you're not familiar with the character it jars you. I find it entirely appropriate for her as she's portrayed in her own source media, so YMMV.

[Karoht]

I hear what you're saying but I still don't like it. Sorry. :smalltongue: It's just really out of place, and seems to only be there to make her look cute and flirty. Which she doesn't need.

I don't know, maybe I'm just a silly feminist who takes things too seriously. Just can't help seeing the structures, and let's just say this cinematic fits right into them. I'm going to leave this discussion and hope that the game will be better on that front.Silly and feminist are two different things. Had you said that was your beef from the get go, I would have agreed with you, but you fixated on silly and from our perspective it looks like you're now changing your tune.
I would have then pointed you to an interview where Dustin Browder admits that they went a bit overboard in sexualizing Nova, ranging from costume decisions (her alternate skin is a rollerderby costume, people were very vocal about it) to even that little blown kiss at the end of the trailer. Some changes are likely to be on the way for Nova (and Kerrigan, and probably Tyrande as well), but Dustin is a fairly sympathetic fellow who tends to listen when people get vocal about things.

[Weimann]

It's possible I didn't express my thoughts properly in my first post. That was my bad, sorry about that. :smallbiggrin:

I'd be interested in looking at that interview, though, if you have it at hand.

[Tectonic Robot]

This sounds like a MOBA I have a possibility of getting into. Like the super smash bros of MOBA's, maybe.

[Cogwheel]

This sounds like a MOBA I have a possibility of getting into. Like the super smash bros of MOBA's, maybe.

Does the similarity include Metaknight or not? This is vitally important.

[Karoht]

It's possible I didn't express my thoughts properly in my first post. That was my bad, sorry about that. :smallbiggrin:

I'd be interested in looking at that interview, though, if you have it at hand.
I would have to go digging for it. Pretty sure it was on either Kotaku or joystiq.com or something like that.

@MOBA you can get into
I was sort of hoping that Diablo3 PvP would have a scenario like a MOBA. But then they put Diablo3 characters into HotS. I guess it will do.

Character I most want to play?
Elite Tauren Chieftan. Best band EVAR!
Character I am most curious about?
The Siege Tank guy, Sgt. Hammer. Drive a Siege tank, blow stuff up. I'm in.
Character who looks the most OP?
None readily apparent yet. Abathur. Abathur and his 'jazz hands' as Browder put it. So OP.

@Dude that plays like Metaknight
Um. Going by memory here, probably Illidan. He is pretty fast, combo's up well from what I saw at Blizzcon. I'm not sure if he flies or not, I think he's got a Demonic Leap type move to get around the map quickly. Yeah. Lets go with Illidan = Metaknight, because reasons.

[Tectonic Robot]

Does the similarity include Metaknight or not? This is vitally important.

I didn't mean in character composition, just that its a game that's not meant to be played for fun, not as competitively. I guess... no? In smash bros type stuff tiers appear, usually, I guess.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

@Dude that plays like Metaknight
Um. Going by memory here, probably Illidan. He is pretty fast, combo's up well from what I saw at Blizzcon. I'm not sure if he flies or not, I think he's got a Demonic Leap type move to get around the map quickly. Yeah. Lets go with Illidan = Metaknight, because reasons.
Yes...but does he have perpetual cancel-spam? Vitally important.

[Cogwheel]

Ah, I guess that was too obscure, going by the above two posts. I meant 'metaknight' in the sense of 'hilariously broken character who eventually gets banned everywhere'. Brawl is a bit infamous for it.

[Karoht]

I didn't mean in character composition, just that its a game that's not meant to be played for fun, not as competitively. I guess... no? In smash bros type stuff tiers appear, usually, I guess.WAAAAAAY to early to tell just yet, but despite what people might think, Blizzard balancing is often much better than people give it credit, and they want all the characters to be both viable and fun. Part of why they took away some of the other MOBA-isms I mentioned before. If this were a traditional MOBA, I would be agreeing with you, but it won't be, so we can't know just yet.

To be clear, you were asking if there was a Metaknight tiered character, to ask if the game is going to be non-fun? Is that what you were asking, I don't want to assume.

EDIT: I see the explanation.
I doubt there will be a single best character, for reasons already mentioned. I mean, there will probably be a best tanky character, a best bursty character, a best support, etc. Also, keep in mind that if something is indeed OP, Blizzard balances things. Smash Bros being a standalone platform game, there is no reason to 'fix' characters. So even if there is an OP 'best' character who is a full tier above the rest, it won't be for long.

[Cogwheel]

It was a throwaway joke after SSB came up, really. Didn't mean to cause any trouble, sorry.

[Karoht]

It was a throwaway joke after SSB came up, really. Didn't mean to cause any trouble, sorry.Hardly. I see it as a fully relevant question. It happens in MOBA's all the time, LoL, HoN, DOTA2, and if you pick the "wrong" character, you get rude people being rude to you. This is something Blizzard wants to completely aim away from as much as they reasonably can.
Blizz has far too much going for them in the eSport circles, to leave an OP character would do them much more harm than good, and they know it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Guys, one of the points about Nova is that she may not be quite the same person after the wipe. Sure, she's not going to be wildly different in terms of base personality, but her experiences are going to shape her as someone else. I have not read the comics, although I have read through Nova's page on the wiki. But from the campaigns, she... doesn't come off like that. Maybe she just takes Raynor seriously, but if she takes the attack on the science facility seriously but a fight with those champions not seriously, I can't really wrap my head around that. Maybe if it's her first fight and she's just like "oh they might have magic but I have psionics and guns!", but she should've smartened up pretty quick.

[Cogwheel]

Maybe if it's her first fight and she's just like "oh they might have magic but I have psionics and guns!", but she should've smartened up pretty quick.

Frankly, if I see a man with pandas on his swords, I will not take him terribly seriously either.

They... they kept the panda swords, right? I really hope they did.

[The Glyphstone]

There is no Chen Stormstout character in the roster. This makes me sad, for all the alcohol-themed abilities the game is now missing out on.

[Karoht]

I know I saw Chen in some of the demo-videos. So don't give up hope just yet. I mean, the game is still in alpha.


Guys, one of the points about Nova is that she may not be quite the same person after the wipe. Sure, she's not going to be wildly different in terms of base personality, but her experiences are going to shape her as someone else. I have not read the comics, although I have read through Nova's page on the wiki. But from the campaigns, she... doesn't come off like that. Maybe she just takes Raynor seriously, but if she takes the attack on the science facility seriously but a fight with those champions not seriously, I can't really wrap my head around that. Maybe if it's her first fight and she's just like "oh they might have magic but I have psionics and guns!", but she should've smartened up pretty quick.
Oh gawd another one? Ugh. Fine.
How dare anyone not be serious for 60 seconds, even when they know they have the situation well in hand. Game must suck, kthxbai.
Honestly, are you going to lecture someone about wrongfun next?
I hope the Starcrafts video I linked doesn't offend you, what with it being very silly, involving Diablo being stopped by roots and a cute little flower from Malfurion.

Maybe because she knows her team is more awesome. Maybe because coordinating a strike team of Ghosts on a heavily fortified science facility is serious business, but up against Kerrigan/Diablo/Arthas she's got this in the bag because reasons.
Maybe, she's actually self-aware of the absurdity of the situation. Maybe she and her team of Tyrael/Raynor/Nova have faced sillier things that day.
Or maybe, just maybe, the people making the game and trailer just felt the trailer was too serious and needed some levity and Nova was the best person for the task out of the 3. Maybe making the trailer look like someone is having fun is the best way to convey that it IS fun?

@Panda Swords
They've been on Illidan's Warglaves in most of the promo shots. Too zoomed out to tell if it's actually on the character in the videos. And there's always room for it in other skins if it isn't there right away.

[Tectonic Robot]

I know I saw Chen in some of the demo-videos. So don't give up hope just yet. I mean, the game is still in alpha.


Oh gawd another one? Ugh. Fine.
How dare anyone not be serious for 60 seconds, even when they know they have the situation well in hand. Game must suck, kthxbai.
Honestly, are you going to lecture someone about wrongfun next?
I hope the Starcrafts video I linked doesn't offend you, what with it being very silly, involving Diablo being stopped by roots and a cute little flower from Malfurion.

Maybe because she knows her team is more awesome. Maybe because coordinating a strike team of Ghosts on a heavily fortified science facility is serious business, but up against Kerrigan/Diablo/Arthas she's got this in the bag because reasons.
Maybe, she's actually self-aware of the absurdity of the situation. Maybe she and her team of Tyrael/Raynor/Nova have faced sillier things that day.
Or maybe, just maybe, the people making the game and trailer just felt the trailer was too serious and needed some levity and Nova was the best person for the task out of the 3. Maybe making the trailer look like someone is having fun is the best way to convey that it IS fun?

@Panda Swords
They've been on Illidan's Warglaves in most of the promo shots. Too zoomed out to tell if it's actually on the character in the videos. And there's always room for it in other skins if it isn't there right away.

There's no need to be so caustic, mate.

[ryuplaneswalker]

First

*gets on his soapbox*


I hear what you're saying but I still don't like it. Sorry. :smalltongue: It's just really out of place, and seems to only be there to make her look cute and flirty. Which she doesn't need.

She blew a kiss, at the devil after dropping a weapon of mass destruction on him

OMG SO HAWT!


I guess all women characters should be completely stoic badasses that make Squall from FF8 look like a font of personality traits.


I don't know, maybe I'm just a silly feminist who takes things too seriously. Just can't help seeing the structures, and let's just say this cinematic fits right into them. I'm going to leave this discussion and hope that the game will be better on that front.

Yep, a stealth based character wearing a skin tight outfit is totally seixist, they should totally put her in full plate armor, like Solid Snake or Garret (Theif series) wear.

*Gets off his soapbox*

Moving on.

I know it is Alpha but, looking through the character descriptions, I saw an interesting bit about Zera'tul.


The enigmatic Dark Templar Zeratul faithfully serves the Xel'Naga. While he expertly wields the powers of the Void, it is his wisdom that earns him the respect of the Koprulu sector's greatest leaders - despite his penchant for dramatic entrances.

Zeratul Faithfully serves the Xel'Naga? They are all dead except one..who is the badguy.

[Cogwheel]

I know it is Alpha but, looking through the character descriptions, I saw an interesting bit about Zera'tul.

This... this is almost the only time fantasy/sci-fi apostrophes have gone unused. Please don't encourage them.

We may get Ji'm Ray'nor at this rate.

[Tectonic Robot]

First

*gets on his soapbox*



She blew a kiss, at the devil after dropping a weapon of mass destruction on him

OMG SO HAWT!


I guess all women characters should be completely stoic badasses that make Squall from FF8 look like a font of personality traits.



Yep, a stealth based character wearing a skin tight outfit is totally seixist, they should totally put her in full plate armor, like Solid Snake or Garret (Theif series) wear.

*Gets off his soapbox*

Moving on.

I know it is Alpha but, looking through the character descriptions, I saw an interesting bit about Zera'tul.



Zeratul Faithfully serves the Xel'Naga? They are all dead except one..who is the badguy.

He's voicing legitimate concerns, ya know...

[Karoht]

"The enigmatic Dark Templar Zeratul faithfully serves the Xel'Naga."
I'm going to go with typo on this one. But after thinking about it, truthfully it wouldn't surprise me. But I have some other theories.
Either he's an agent of Amon, or there is more than one Xel'Naga left alive, whom he has been working for. Or, since he's trying to follow the prophecy of the Zel'Naga, someone at Blizzard misinterpreted that as serving their will.

Oh hey, I just noticed that Sgt. Bama "The Hammer" Kowalski... is female, not male. That's right, the Siege Tank is being driven around by a lady. Very awesome.
"Sergeant Bama "the Hammer" Kowalski has served some of the toughest tours around the Koprulu sector. The thunderous roar of her siege tank's shock cannon strikes fear right into the heart of the toughest of warriors... including some of her allies."

[Weimann]

That could actually be pretty awesome. Credit where it's due. :smallsmile:

[Gandariel]

Blizzard always makes amazing AMAZING videos.

Think the Diablo 2 cinematics: 13 or so years ago, and it was amazing. i'd watch it now too

And then, obviously... The trailer of StarcraftII: Heart of the Swarm, which was SO good. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coWNNOslxlM)

[Loreweaver15]

I didn't mean in character composition, just that its a game that's not meant to be played for fun, not as competitively. I guess... no? In smash bros type stuff tiers appear, usually, I guess.

Tiers appear in every game with differentiated characters. They only matter as a) something to understand at high levels of competitive play so you're aware of your chosen character's strengths and weaknesses and b) as a relative measure of game balance.

[The Glyphstone]

Tiers appear in every game with differentiated characters. They only matter as a) something to understand at high levels of competitive play so you're aware of your chosen character's strengths and weaknesses and b) as a relative measure of game balance.

Idly, I wonder if this is part of why the 'Tier System' in D&D causes so much controversy...b) still applies, but a lot of people are familiar with the use of a), where the Tiers are intended more for similarly high levels of cooperative play.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Idly, I wonder if this is part of why the 'Tier System' in D&D causes so much controversy...b) still applies, but a lot of people are familiar with the use of a), where the Tiers are intended more for similarly high levels of cooperative play.

Because apparently, if you judge the quality of D&D based on the contents of its books (gasp!) "ur doin it wrong" (unless you're saying that 4e sucks). Since the GM changing stuff around and making up magic jetpacks that act like a Fly spell and saying that wizards can't use Knock or Summon Monster spells because they're making the rogue mad makes it balanced. Obviously. Or even worse, saying that since it's a cooperative game, it doesn't matter at all, no changes needed.

[The Glyphstone]

Because apparently, if you judge the quality of D&D based on the contents of its books (gasp!) "ur doin it wrong" (unless you're saying that 4e sucks). Since the GM changing stuff around and making up magic jetpacks that act like a Fly spell and saying that wizards can't use Knock or Summon Monster spells because they're making the rogue mad makes it balanced. Obviously. Or even worse, saying that since it's a cooperative game, it doesn't matter at all, no changes needed.

....I have no idea what provoked this, or even what you're saying (I honestly cannot figure out if you are pro-Tier or anti-Tier through your multiply redundant layers of sarcasm).

All I wondered was if similar terminology for two very different intended uses was a contributing factor to the oft-confusion.

[Hiro Protagonest]

....I have no idea what provoked this, or even what you're saying (I honestly cannot figure out if you are pro-Tier or anti-Tier through your multiply redundant layers of sarcasm).

All I wondered was if similar terminology for two very different intended uses was a contributing factor to the oft-confusion.

I'm pro-tier. A good GM can fix the imbalance with enough homebrew and modification, but then it's hardly 3.5 any more and you would be better off applying that homebrew to ToB classes and factotum anyway.

You don't see tiers for MMO classes being dismissed as "only for PvP".

I was responding to the idea that D&D seems to be the only game where tiers are controversial.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm pro-tier. A good GM can fix the imbalance with enough homebrew and modification, but then it's hardly 3.5 any more and you would be better off applying that homebrew to ToB classes and factotum anyway.

You don't see tiers for MMO classes being dismissed as "only for PvP".

I was responding to the idea that D&D seems to be the only game where tiers are controversial.

Amusingly, I saw exactly that just a few days ago, someone in WoW was dismissing...Affliction Warlocks, I think?....as being 'useless outside of PvP'. Crazy, but it was being said.

I've no doubt that the tier placement of heroes/classes in video games is fiercely argued over. But I am certain that D&D is the only game I'm familiar with where the very existence of 'tiers' is controversial...is that what you're arguing about? Are there people who say competitive Brawl or LoL doesn't need Tiers?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Amusingly, I saw exactly that just a few days ago, someone in WoW was dismissing...Affliction Warlocks, I think?....as being 'useless outside of PvP'. Crazy, but it was being said.

I've no doubt that the tier placement of heroes/classes in video games is fiercely argued over. But I am certain that D&D is the only game I'm familiar with where the very existence of 'tiers' is controversial...is that what you're arguing about? Are there people who say competitive Brawl or LoL doesn't need Tiers?

Basically. Sure, there are people in other communities who will argue about the placement of something in a tier, but the tier system for D&D gets hostility for just existing at all, with claims that all classes are balanced because it's cooperative and the rules can be changed.

[The Glyphstone]

So is there any actual disagreement here? Or did my idle comment just happen to accidentally mash one of your buttons, and we can get back to discussing how little anyone actually knows about HotS?

[Loreweaver15]

The argument is that "tires don exits" (seriously search for that phrase), that all characters are equally viable and people who claim otherwise are Wrongbad McNoFuns who just want to rain all over casuals' good times; opposed at its extreme by the Professional Tryhards, who think that anybody playing Dan or Ganondorf is a useless scrub who should get out of their game.

Both groups are nuts and annoying as hell.

I, personally, think that tiers and relative tier positions are one of the most fascinating things about competitive fighters or competitive games in general; watching a metagame evolve as people discover exploits and glitches and tricks and counter-tricks is intensely interesting.

[Karoht]

If you want to look at the balance in HotS, look at the damage range of the abilities. They're mostly within the same ranges, they have the same or similar upgrades. I highly doubt that character X is going to do vastly more than character Y. Even if that is the case that an extreme difference takes place, character Y is likely to have something to offset.
Take Sgt Hammer for example. All her damage numbers are high. Her mobility is incredibly low. In order to achieve that damage, she needs to stop, take 5 seconds to set up (Siege Mode), and then and only then can she use her biggest and best abilities. While she is probably a high skill cap character in terms of positioning, she is also highly vulnerable, open to all kinds of attack avenues that other characters simply are not.

Also, to look at the SSBB example of Metaknight who relies on cancels, Blizzard has never had cancel-animation moves (unless you count the marine stutter step in SCII, which got nerfed last time I checked). During the D3 beta the idea of cancel-animation moves came up, Blizzard responded with a firm no.

And even if, through all Blizzard's balancing efforts, somehow there emerges a pack of characters who are just that much better, unlike SSBB ongoing balancing and patches are a thing. And Blizzard has a good track record of fixing things that are broken, at least so far as class/character balance is concerned.

[Loreweaver15]

If you want to look at the balance in HotS, look at the damage range of the abilities. They're mostly within the same ranges, they have the same or similar upgrades. I highly doubt that character X is going to do vastly more than character Y. Even if that is the case that an extreme difference takes place, character Y is likely to have something to offset.
Take Sgt Hammer for example. All her damage numbers are high. Her mobility is incredibly low. In order to achieve that damage, she needs to stop, take 5 seconds to set up (Siege Mode), and then and only then can she use her biggest and best abilities. While she is probably a high skill cap character in terms of positioning, she is also highly vulnerable, open to all kinds of attack avenues that other characters simply are not.

Also, to look at the SSBB example of Metaknight who relies on cancels, Blizzard has never had cancel-animation moves (unless you count the marine stutter step in SCII, which got nerfed last time I checked). During the D3 beta the idea of cancel-animation moves came up, Blizzard responded with a firm no.

And even if, through all Blizzard's balancing efforts, somehow there emerges a pack of characters who are just that much better, unlike SSBB ongoing balancing and patches are a thing. And Blizzard has a good track record of fixing things that are broken, at least so far as class/character balance is concerned.

Other MOBAs have proven that damage output is the least of balance concerns :P Stuns and other combat tricks are far harder to balance.

[Karoht]

Other MOBAs have proven that damage output is the least of balance concerns :P Stuns and other combat tricks are far harder to balance.So? Go look at those too. Seriously, go check out all the characters. Just about everyone gets a stun, if they don't get that they get a snare/root, if they don't get that they get damage or toughness or mobility or slipperyness. And most of the stuns/snares are skillshots rather than automatic effects. And I think the longest stun I saw was 1.5 seconds on Falstad (also a skillshot). Alpha being Alpha, I wouldn't be too surprised if the majority of such effects were trimmed to 1 second, as damage to health ratio (known as intensity scale) might not support longer stuns.

[Loreweaver15]

So? Go look at those too. Seriously, go check out all the characters. Just about everyone gets a stun, if they don't get that they get a snare/root, if they don't get that they get damage or toughness or mobility or slipperyness. And most of the stuns/snares are skillshots rather than automatic effects. And I think the longest stun I saw was 1.5 seconds on Falstad (also a skillshot). Alpha being Alpha, I wouldn't be too surprised if the majority of such effects were trimmed to 1 second, as damage to health ratio (known as intensity scale) might not support longer stuns.

I'm...not sure how what you're saying disagrees with what I'm saying?

I was just saying that damage is hardly the thing to latch on to as the trickiest thing to balance.

[Karoht]

I'm...not sure how what you're saying disagrees with what I'm saying?

I was just saying that damage is hardly the thing to latch on to as the trickiest thing to balance.I'm saying go and look at the characters and their options rather than making blanket assumptions because other MOBA's did something a certain way. The stuns/snares/roots are all pretty well in line with one another. Everyone seems to have something and if they don't they make up for it in either damage output or damage soaking. And to further counter-balance those abilities, the majority of them are skillshots, which implies that one can avoid them in the first place.

[Loreweaver15]

I'm saying go and look at the characters and their options rather than making blanket assumptions because other MOBA's did something a certain way. The stuns/snares/roots are all pretty well in line with one another. Everyone seems to have something and if they don't they make up for it in either damage output or damage soaking. And to further counter-balance those abilities, the majority of them are skillshots, which implies that one can avoid them in the first place.

How does that in any way invalidate my point?

[Karoht]

How does that in any way invalidate my point?Is invalidation the only possible point in replying to you? That sounds rather argumentative to me, rather than constructive.

I've provided you evidence (www.mmo-champion.com scroll down a bit for all of the datamined HotS character info/abilities) for you to draw your own conclusions, rather than providing evidence to try and swing your belief to a specific one. I'm not going to bring up evidence and go "I'm right, you're wrong" as that tends to be a rather boring and confrontational way to discuss something. Especially when it is something we are both interested in seeing succeed.

My purpose is for you to see for yourself, draw your own conclusions based on evidence rather than suppositions and assumptions. If you come to the same conclusion based on that evidence, then we can discuss that position. If you are going to ignore that evidence but still hold your position, then it is not worth my time or yours to try and invalidate your point. Especially when such positions are worthless (mine included whether I'm right or wrong) given that the game is still in Alpha and is probably a year away from launch. I could provide layer after layer of evidence, argue most eloquently, I could potentially even sway your belief.
And then one patch or several later (even in alpha/beta, nevermind after launch), I'm wrong.

So yes. Go check things out for yourself, or just assume that I'm wrong and we can both move on. Sincerely, I'm 100% fine with either.

[Loreweaver15]

Is invalidation the only possible point in replying to you? That sounds rather argumentative to me, rather than constructive.

I've provided you evidence (www.mmo-champion.com scroll down a bit for all of the datamined HotS character info/abilities) for you to draw your own conclusions, rather than providing evidence to try and swing your belief to a specific one. I'm not going to bring up evidence and go "I'm right, you're wrong" as that tends to be a rather boring and confrontational way to discuss something. Especially when it is something we are both interested in seeing succeed.

My purpose is for you to see for yourself, draw your own conclusions based on evidence rather than suppositions and assumptions. If you come to the same conclusion based on that evidence, then we can discuss that position. If you are going to ignore that evidence but still hold your position, then it is not worth my time or yours to try and invalidate your point. Especially when such positions are worthless (mine included whether I'm right or wrong) given that the game is still in Alpha and is probably a year away from launch. I could provide layer after layer of evidence, argue most eloquently, I could potentially even sway your belief.
And then one patch or several later (even in alpha/beta, nevermind after launch), I'm wrong.

So yes. Go check things out for yourself, or just assume that I'm wrong and we can both move on. Sincerely, I'm 100% fine with either.

I don't...understand how that has anything to do with what we were talking about. Game balance is something I'll experience when HOTS comes out and these things are really put into practice. What we were talking about was design principles in general, how in MOBAs raw damage is generally not nearly as breakable as combat tricks, and then you started saying NO LOOK THEY'VE ALREADY BALANCED IT SEE which...has nothing to do with how hard it is to balance.

You started arguing with me in a discussion we weren't even having, is what I'm saying.

[Karoht]

You started arguing with me in a discussion we weren't even having, is what I'm saying.Wow, a slight tangent throws you off this much?


Game balance is something I'll experience when HOTS comes out and these things are really put into practice. What we were talking about was design principles in general, how in MOBAs raw damage is generally not nearly as breakable as combat tricks, and then you started saying NO LOOK THEY'VE ALREADY BALANCED IT SEE which...has nothing to do with how hard it is to balance.You can't objectively evaluate the balance of those combat tricks without actually looking at them.

[Tectonic Robot]

Yo, Karoht, you're acting kind of confrontational and aggressive. Maybe tone it down a bit?

Anyway, hearing that the siege tank hero is going to be female is really cool. The idea of siege mode in MOBA strikes me as really quite neat.

[The Glyphstone]

According to MMO....Nova can't actually nuke bad guys.:smallfrown: FALSE ADVERTISING IN TRAILER GG BLIZZ CANCELLING SUB NOW OMG.:smallfurious:

(Unless that is what Precision Strike animates as.)

[Karoht]

Yo, Karoht, you're acting kind of confrontational and aggressive. Maybe tone it down a bit?Asking people to read the info available to them before wild speculation, while stating that if they don't want to read the info I'll concede the point and move on as it is moot, is considered confrontational/aggressive? :smallconfused:


Anyway, hearing that the siege tank hero is going to be female is really cool. The idea of siege mode in MOBA strikes me as really quite neat.Probably going to be a very challenging character to play, but lots of ambush/kiting potential in a good team. If you want to defend a tower or other fixed point really well, this person (positioned correctly and in Siege) is probably going to be a serious deterant in addition to the tactical value.

I want to see a team of all Siege. Or 4 Siege and a support like Ab/Tass/Mal.

Huh. I wonder what Sgt Hammer is going to look like on a rainbow horse mount. Can Sgt Hammer mount? This could be amuzing. I can see the memes now.

"Rainbow Sparkly Pony carrying a Siege Tank.
Your point is invalid."



According to MMO....Nova can't actually nuke bad guys.:smallfrown: FALSE ADVERTISING IN TRAILER GG BLIZZ CANCELLING SUB NOW OMG.:smallfurious:
(Unless that is what Precision Strike animates as.)OMG BLIZZ NOVA HAZ 2 SKILLSHOTS OP GG BLIZZ OMG.

[Loreweaver15]

You can't objectively evaluate the balance of those combat tricks without actually looking at them.

I'm not evaluating those combat tricks. I'm not evaluating anything. You're the one getting up in my face about the specific situation when all I'm doing is making a general statement.

[Karoht]

I'm not evaluating those combat tricks. I'm not evaluating anything. You're the one getting up in my face about the specific situation when all I'm doing is making a general statement.And I'm suggesting that rather than make a general statement, here is some info so you can make a non-general one. Or we can drop the point as it is a meaningless argument of a general statement.
TL:DR-We can turn it into an objective discussion if you want to read the info (why you seem to refuse to is beyond me), or we can drop it and move on.
Which I've now stated 3 times.

[Loreweaver15]

And I'm suggesting that rather than make a general statement, here is some info so you can make a non-general one. Or we can drop the point as it is a meaningless argument of a general statement.
TL:DR-We can turn it into an objective discussion if you want to read the info (why you seem to refuse to is beyond me), or we can drop it and move on.
Which I've now stated 3 times.

Let's do that, because I don't really care about the specific balance tweaks and efforts until the game is released and the playerbase gets ahold of it.

[Karoht]

Let's do that, because I don't really care about the specific balance tweaks and efforts until the game is released and the playerbase gets ahold of it.Agreed. This is what I was saying, I just said it differently from you.
I said that we could go around the bend arguing about it, one of us could even be right, then one patch happens and boom, everything changes. The meta game will also steer things. My point in the very beginning, is that Blizzard is very conscious of it's metagame. If a character is marginalized, they'll most likely fix it. If a character is OP, they will fix it.

The characters I'm most concerned about at first glance are Demon Hunter, Barbarian, and Witch Doctor. They read very bland at first, made more problematic in that if I want to play a D3 character, I'll go play D3 really.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Technical Alpha incoming! (http://www.heroesofthestorm.com/en-us/news/12999313) Looks like some invites are going to start. Not very many at all, but this means the Beta is on the horizon...

[Weimann]

Yay, progress!

I'm a bit confused, though. They say they're inviting external testers to the tech alpha. Doesn't that make it a beta by definition? I thought the meaning of alpha testing was that it was made internally, and once you involved a third party it became a beta. Or am I wrong in that?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Yay, progress!

I'm a bit confused, though. They say they're inviting external testers to the tech alpha. Doesn't that make it a beta by definition? I thought the meaning of alpha testing was that it was made internally, and once you involved a third party it became a beta. Or am I wrong in that?
It's been a while since I've been around the terminology (and different people may use the terms differently), but from what I recall..."alpha" vs. "beta" referred to the degree of completeness that a piece of software was at. The alpha was the rough stage, with probably large amounts of bugs, unpolished, missing major bits. The beta is essentially complete but not fully polished or finished or thoroughly tested.

[Karoht]

Yay, progress!

I'm a bit confused, though. They say they're inviting external testers to the tech alpha. Doesn't that make it a beta by definition? I thought the meaning of alpha testing was that it was made internally, and once you involved a third party it became a beta. Or am I wrong in that?Alpha's tend to be 'friends and family', but also refer to the stage of development.

Alpha's also mean they are only ready for a small audience to test. Feedback is good, but it means that at this stage, they can only handle so much of it.
Beta's are by design, ready for a much larger audience to test. Contrasting to an Alpha, it means they are ready for typically an 10x the feedback and stress testing of an Alpha. Beta's also an indicator for build and server stability.

Finally, Alpha and Beta are lose terms, not fixed definitions really. It goes into Alpha when the Alpha is read. It goes into Beta when Beta is ready. And because we're talking about a Blizzard title, it goes to launch when it's ready.

How close is the Beta? Consider that Blizzard has a release to get out the door in a month (D3:RoS), probably a few weeks after that we will see closed Beta invites happening. They also have the Beta for the next WoW expansion to gear up for, so that could potentially delay the HotS beta, depending on how they prioritize things. Though personally I am willing to bet they will stagger the WoW beta after the HotS beta by at least a month.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I like the way you speculate. It means that I have something to look forward to at Easter-time-ish.

[Aidan305]

A thought occurred to me earlier. What do you think the odds are that we'll see any of the warcraft heroes from before Reign of Chaos? Anduin Lothar, for example, or Teron Gorefiend, the original Death Knight. I still remember being shocked in Warcraft II when I saw Lothar, with whom I had stormed the tower of Medivh way back in Orcs vs Humans, being assassinated in a brutal betrayal.

I wouldn't mind being able to play him and even the score a little.

[Forbiddenwar]

Relevant video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp-NO__8kpQ)
Noted Cynic discusses the shape of the game right now.

Heck, even I'm interested and I don't really like MOBAs (except for SMNC, and then only for about a week).

It might be pretty exciting to see what varied directions you can take a hero. That and seeing a hovering, sieged seige tank flying across the map on rocket boosters is just amazing.

[huttj509]

Relevant video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp-NO__8kpQ)
Noted Cynic discusses the shape of the game right now.

Heck, even I'm interested and I don't really like MOBAs (except for SMNC, and then only for about a week).

It might be pretty exciting to see what varied directions you can take a hero. That and seeing a hovering, sieged seige tank flying across the map on rocket boosters is just amazing.

Whelp, I'm sold.

I'm one of those folks who loves the idea of LoL, likes playing with friends, but it is NOT good for my blood pressure.

[TFT]

I actually got to play a game off a friend who got into alpha. In short: the game play feels pretty fun but it's a little bit clunky.

To go a bit more in depth: There is a little bit less mechanical skill involved due to the lack of last hitting and a couple of other changes. But the game makes up for it with a bit stronger hero kits and objectives being more integral to the game (camps become mercs and neutral objectives play a huge part in most maps). I was worried about hero stagnation, but they make up for it by letting you pick different "traits" (I can't remember the actual name for it) that customize your hero a bit more. So it has tradeoffs, but it makes the game a bit more actionpacked and less snowballing, which are both good points.

To be completely honest, I can't wait until I get access myself to play it more. :smallbiggrin:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Okay, that sounds fun! I don't mind a loss of timing-based gameplay (last-hitting and such). And I'm sure that it'll smooth out plenty from alpha.

[Karoht]

I like the idea that each hero could potentially have an incentive (unique to each hero) for last hitting, but not basing things like XP/Gold around it is a good idea.
Example-Arthas raises zombies if he last hits. They aren't amazing or anything, but they are an excellent incentive/bonus for last hitting. Also one of his major attacks (I think it's Howling Blast?) behaves differently if you score a kill with it.
Rewarding skill cap = good
Rewarding skill cap with something fun and interesting = very good

Do Mercs just become another wave of tougher creeps or do they follow your hero or what? Any idea how they behave or what makes them different?

[TFT]

I like the idea that each hero could potentially have an incentive (unique to each hero) for last hitting, but not basing things like XP/Gold around it is a good idea.
Example-Arthas raises zombies if he last hits. They aren't amazing or anything, but they are an excellent incentive/bonus for last hitting. Also one of his major attacks (I think it's Howling Blast?) behaves differently if you score a kill with it.
Rewarding skill cap = good
Rewarding skill cap with something fun and interesting = very good

Do Mercs just become another wave of tougher creeps or do they follow your hero or what? Any idea how they behave or what makes them different?

As far as I remember, when you kill the camp an exact copy of the camp spawns but for your side, and walks toward the nearest lane to push. So basically it adds that camp to your next wave.

There's also an interesting ability called bribe that some heroes get that allows them to take a kill a camp instantly, though I didn't get to see the specifics of it since my hero didn't have that/I didn't see it when I was picking traits.

[huttj509]

As far as I remember, when you kill the camp an exact copy of the camp spawns but for your side, and walks toward the nearest lane to push. So basically it adds that camp to your next wave.

There's also an interesting ability called bribe that some heroes get that allows them to take a kill a camp instantly, though I didn't get to see the specifics of it since my hero didn't have that/I didn't see it when I was picking traits.

Every minion you kill you get a token. When you get 40, you can bribe a camp.

It was in the cynicalbrit video.

[Tectonic Robot]

So, now that some gameplay has been released... which heroes look coolest to you guys?

[Karoht]

So, now that some gameplay has been released... which heroes look coolest to you guys?Sgt Hammer.
Because you are a tank. And not just any tank, a Terran Siege Tank, one of the coolest tanks ever.
What more do you need.

Zeratule and Tassadar, because they are iconic.

Tyreal, because tendril/wings and light/explosion powers.

ETC, because Tauren rockstar FTW.

[Tectonic Robot]

Looks like the official Heroes of the Storm Youtube channel released a teaser for a fairy dragon hero... kind of reminds me of unikitty, a little bit.

[Karoht]

I haven't had a chance to look at the new releases from PAX yet.
Sgt Hammer is still my front runner for favorite hero so far.