Suggestions for tripper: No knockdown feat allowed

[graeylin]

3.5

My DM insists that knockdown is a divine feat, and thus not available to my half-orc fighter/barbarian. I tried the argument that it carries the "general" description, his counter is that is a general divine spell, not a general general spell. Rule 0, so...

What would be a good feat to replace it in my build, as I am heading for a bit smarter than the average "Hulk Smash" barbarian.

6th level. I already have Improved trip from the wolf totem, and cleave, and power attack. Other feats are used for different portions of the build, so I just have my knockdown to swap out now (and cleave/power attack if they need to be sacrificed).

Alternately, if you can point me to a definitive statement from the WOTC folks that knockdown isn't divine only, that might help too.

[Gwendol]

Eh, the feat can be found in Sword and Fist, p. 7.

I think that should settle the debate...

[graeylin]

Sword and Fist is a 3.0 book, isn't it? Since we are playing 3.5, he won't allow it because of that.

That will probably strengthen his argument: "See, in 3.0 it was so overpowered, they made it a Divine Feat when they put it in the 3.5 system."

(yes, I know it's not overpowered, but...)

[Gwendol]

3.0 material is allowable for use with 3.5, it's very clearly stated! And about Divine feats: it doesn't matter what book a feat comes for, the important part is what the pre-req says. In case of knock-down it has no divine pre-reqs.

Honestly though, it sounds like your DM simply doesn't want you to knock-back, so do something else.

My suggestion is to use a reach weapon, get combat reflexes and stand still, and be a battlefield controller/tripper.

[Drogorn]

Martial characters can't have nice things, don'cha know?

[Kennisiou]

When he insists it's a divine feat what he's talking about is also a 3.0 sourcebook. They didn't "turn it into" a divine feat in 3.5 at all because it's not mentioned in any 3.5 books at all. Deities and Demigods only lists knockdown in its feats section because a god or two in the book knew the feat and in 3.0 they had a policy of including all non-core materials that were used for builds and such in the book listed in the same book (whereas in 3.5 they occasionally would use materials from other books outside of core and just reference what book they're from).

[graeylin]

3.0 material is allowable for use with 3.5, it's very clearly stated! And about Divine feats: it doesn't matter what book a feat comes for, the important part is what the pre-req says. In case of knock-down it has no divine pre-reqs.

Honestly though, it sounds like your DM simply doesn't want you to knock-back, so do something else.

My suggestion is to use a reach weapon, get combat reflexes and stand still, and be a battlefield controller/tripper.

Do you have a linky for the first sentence? that might make a potential argument for me.

[Jergmo]

I know it means relying on magic, which I don't know if you're trying to avoid, but if you can get away with it, a low-priced boost would be an item that is on Command (or constant effect) of Enlarge Person, then pick up a weapon that gives a bonus to trip.

[Rejusu]

Do you have a linky for the first sentence? that might make a potential argument for me.

I can't find any official word on it right now but the general rule is that 3.0 material is only specifically disallowed if it's been updated in a 3.5 sourcebook. As this isn't the case for Knockdown (only appearing in the 3.0 Sword and Fist and 3.0 Deities and Demigods supplements) this doesn't apply. Just tell your DM the exact same feat is printed in S&F and makes no mention of deities or divinity. Don't mention it's 3.0, if he mentions it point out that D&D is 3.0 as well. If he kicks up a fuss about that point out that D&D has received an official 3.5 update errata from WotC that doesn't change Knockback. If he then tries to argue that it's still a divine feat provide the counter that (other than the word deity) it's identical to the entry in S&F and thus since the 3.5 update rendered it unchanged in D&D the S&F entry for the feat can also technically be considered 3.5.

If that doesn't work just slap him with the DMG and tell him to stop being a silly bugger.

He is wrong though and needs to learn that the only rules that actually limit feat selection are their tags and prerequisites. It's a [General] feat with prerequisites mortals can achieve, it's irrelevant where it's printed or what its description says. He shouldn't be taking away melees toys, especially if he's allowing full casters in the party.

[Person_Man]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Ritiik): If you successfully hit an enemy with this weapon, the enemy must make a Reflex Save. If it fails, you get a free Trip Attempt. Basically a weaker version of Knock-Down, limited to a non-reach weapon. Frostburn.

Sand Snare: If you successfully Trip and enemy in an area of sand/loose dirt/etc, they must take a Full Round Action followed by a Move action to stand up. No Save. Working with someone who has a Bottle of Endless or sand creating spells, this is a great way to lock down an enemy. Sandstorm pg 52.

Shield Charge: When you charge an enemy and attack with your Shield, you get a free Trip attack. If you also take the Shield Slam Feat, you also impose a Save or Daze (the real draw of taking this combo). But unless your DM is generous in how he reads the feat, it can’t be used with Pounce or two handed Power Attack, so it loses it’s usefulness by ECL 11+. Requires Shield Bash and Shield Charge. Complete Warrior pg 105.

Tunnel Fighter: When you hit your enemy from higher ground (like when you’re mounted, or climb/fly above the enemy, which is easy to do via magic items), your enemy must make a Balance check or be knocked Prone or give up his next Move action. When in a tunnel, you can block line of site, so your enemies can’t target your allies standing behind you. (Useful if you spend a lot of time in dungeons). Requires that you be a Dwarf or Gnome. Dungeonscape pg 46.

[graeylin]

thanks for the tips. The ritiik looks interesting, and I'll try the arguments suggested. Hard to hit your DM with book, when it's his game and you want to play.

I was trying to avoid the chain tripper, but... I have to say, if he's set on this path that I can't knockdown, then I'll swap that feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency, swap my current non reach/close 4000+ gold weapon for a Living Chain (4325), and just do a chain tripper.

I lose knockdown, but now I have 10' reach AND I can hit in melee range as well (I couldn't do both before). And the chain gives me +2 on my trip check (untyped, i think), and is a tripping weapon (my previous was not).

Yup, I was intentionally not optimized before, because I wanted a certain look/flavor. I didn't care about effectiveness as much as fun/cool. Now, I will go the better/more effective route, and the good part is, it's all core, so there's not a thing he can argue.

[Rejusu]

Yup, I was intentionally not optimized before, because I wanted a certain look/flavor. I didn't care about effectiveness as much as fun/cool. Now, I will go the better/more effective route, and the good part is, it's all core, so there's not a thing he can argue.

One would hope. You should try and explain to him that it's not a divine feat though. I find a DM who disallows things because he doesn't understand the rules more bothersome than one who disallows things simply because he doesn't like them.

[HunterOfJello]

The non-divine version of Knockdown from Sword and Fist has errata on it that you should look at before trying to justify it.

I generally consider the feat to be a badly made one since 10 damage is far far too easy to do with a single attack. A character with 20 Strength wielding a +1 Scythe (or spiked chain) will do 10 damage minimum on every one of their melee attacks.

Tripping is nice in general, but suffers later on when monsters get bigger, can't be tripped, or don't care if they're tripped or not. I would suggest a mixed strategy for any melee feat heavy build rather than overspecialization.
~~~

If you're using a reach weapon for tripping, remember that you can trip flying creatures if they use appendages to fly.