For Crying Out Loud!!!

[Lord]

When I first saw 406 I first thought was "well this won't be debated much", my reasoning was that pro Miko groups would be to upset about the fall of their favorite character to respond, but much to my surprise, I see a LOT of people saying "Miko won't change alignment because she only killed ONE non evil person". consider the following example. It will center around a man called Joe who we will assume is LG

Joe is walking along one day, when suddenly Fred walks up to him and asks Joe if he would like to join a organization which he formed which is designed to help the poor get back on their feet. Joe accepts and proceeds over the next few years to help many poor people get back on their feet, and becomes a the third in command of this organization, then one day he is going to a meeting with Fred's second in command, when suddenly they both hear Fred conversing with some people. It sounds a bit like they might be stealing from the poor. They confront Fred and The Second in command says that they will tell the cops about it and have them investigate it in more detail, but this is not good enough for Joe, he gets angry and kills Fred, The Second in command calls the cops, and they put him on trial, Joe's defence. Oh I CAN'T be evil I only murdered ONE person.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE JURY WOULD SAY!!!

[Trevalyan]

Well, stealing from poor people isn't exactly the same as surrendering a city of 500,000 to hobgoblin invaders, so I imagine that the situations aren't really comparable.

Miko has almost certainly lost her powers and Lawful Good alignment. Everything that has brought her to this point was designed to showcase a need for speed of action, and how the conspiracy was plausible, FROM HER PERSPECTIVE. Knowing the OOTS as we do, of course we have different viewpoints. This moment would have been shocking for shock's sake if executed poorly: there's no need to tear down those people who were justifiably conflicted due to Rich Burlew's excellent story crafting.

[Sage in the Playground]

When I first saw 406 I first thought was "well this won't be debated much", my reasoning was that pro Miko groups would be to upset about the fall of their favorite character to respond, but much to my surprise, I see a LOT of people saying "Miko won't change alignment because she only killed ONE non evil person". This is just stupid, consider the following example. It will center around a man called Joe who we will assume is LG

Joe is walking along one day, when suddenly Fred walks up to him and asks Joe if he would like to join a organization which he formed which is designed to help the poor get back on their feet. Joe accepts and proceeds over the next few years to help many poor people get back on their feet, and becomes a the third in command of this organization, then one day he is going to a meeting with Fred's second in command, when suddenly they both hear Fred conversing with some people. It sounds a bit like they might be stealing from the poor. They confront Fred and The Second in command says that they will tell the cops about it and have them investigate it in more detail, but this is not good enough for Joe, he gets angry and kills Fred, The Second in command calls the cops, and they put him on trial, Joe's defence. Oh I CAN'T be evil I only murdered ONE person.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE JURY WOULD SAY!!!

THANK YOU!

[theKOT]

Besides, Alignments are complicated and confusing. Don't get all worked up over this.

[teratorn]

You are building a strawman. Most people agree that she will fall since she was wrong about Shojo, the discussion has been different: would it have been evil if she were right? All of this in terms of D&D alignments that have nothing to do with the real world.

Your example has nothing to do with it, that guy is not the head of the country, is not the head of the military and the courts, and is not associating with someone evil trying to rule the world, who is just at the door with a huge army.

[chibibar]

Yea.. Miko THINKS Shojo is surrending 50,000 people to hobgoblins but in fact Shojo has been trying to protect the city... so yea.. Miko is in deep trouble no matter how you slice it. (pun intended)

Will Miko change alignment? I doubt it (as many others debate in other forum) but she did commit an evil act that is view by the society. Miko's own personal demented view doesn't matter. She can think she is doing right all this time and can still commit evil acts....... I call it self delusion.

[Justinian]

Most people say she should fall because the act was evil.

There are slight arguments about the term "cold-blooded" being bandied about, as well as if the act was chaotic or not, if this counts as "unwittingly" since she thought her target to be evil, or if one action can cause an alignment to change.

But for crying out loud!11!!1`!1@2!! no one is arguing that Miko was completely justified and correct and everything is hunky dory in Paladinland.

[Warpfire]

But for crying out loud!11!!1`!1@2!! no one is arguing that Miko was completely justified and correct and everything is hunky dory in Paladinland.

Well, actually, there are a couple people.

But that's just nit picking, really.

[Lord]

If I was at all offensive I apologize, but the stealing from the poor was not supposed to be eqaul it was just a camparison, and my point was that once you murder someone in cold blood based on pure speculation you change alignments.

[chibibar]

If I was at all offensive I apologize, but the stealing from the poor was not supposed to be eqaul it was just a camparison, and my point was that once you murder someone in cold blood based on pure speculation you change alignments.

Depends really :) it all depends on the GM when it comes to alignment changes... some GM will do gradual changes via multiple acts.. but if it is a one time deal then you can fix it (aka crime of passion or something)

Now on the other hand, Losing your Paladin powers is pretty much set in stone since it is a powerful class, of course again... D&D DOES allow GM to tweak for their own world/campaign...

And since Giant has many house rules, we will find out monday where this will lead.

[arronan]

When I first saw 406 I first thought was "well this won't be debated much", my reasoning was that pro Miko groups would be to upset about the fall of their favorite character to respond, but much to my surprise, I see a LOT of people saying "Miko won't change alignment because she only killed ONE non evil person". This is just stupid, consider the following example. It will center around a man called Joe who we will assume is LG

Joe is walking along one day, when suddenly Fred walks up to him and asks Joe if he would like to join a organization which he formed which is designed to help the poor get back on their feet. Joe accepts and proceeds over the next few years to help many poor people get back on their feet, and becomes a the third in command of this organization, then one day he is going to a meeting with Fred's second in command, when suddenly they both hear Fred conversing with some people. It sounds a bit like they might be stealing from the poor. They confront Fred and The Second in command says that they will tell the cops about it and have them investigate it in more detail, but this is not good enough for Joe, he gets angry and kills Fred, The Second in command calls the cops, and they put him on trial, Joe's defence. Oh I CAN'T be evil I only murdered ONE person.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE JURY WOULD SAY!!!

That just made my day!:smallsmile:

[theKOT]

If I was at all offensive I apologize, but the stealing from the poor was not supposed to be eqaul it was just a camparison, and my point was that once you murder someone in cold blood based on pure speculation you change alignments.
It's your opinion. Niether party is "right" because a lot of these alignment issues are designed to leave room for interpretation.



WHAT DO YOU THINK THE JURY WOULD SAY!!!
It depends on how highly payed his lawyer is.
Bu-dum Bish!

[teratorn]

If I was at all offensive I apologize, but the stealing from the poor was not supposed to be eqaul it was just a camparison, and my point was that once you murder someone in cold blood based on pure speculation you change alignments.

It was clear that you were voicing a strong opinion, no problem with that.

In the real world Miko could always plead insanity, in the D&D universe the Gods won't care about that and will consider the act evil. She's going down like a rock.

[dcviana]

One thing that I found strange in Miko way of thinking. In my perspective, if someone doesn't follow rules, he is neutral (in the "order" side) or chaotic, but not evil. Fail to follow rules is not an evil act, and you can't jump to the conclusion someone is evil just because he did't follow the rules.

The way I see, Miko is so attached to the paladin code (the lawful side of a paladin) that she sees the laws as something that not only dictate if someone is lawfull or chaotic, but also if someone is good or evil. In her way of thinking, being not lawful=being evil.

So if I was the GM running a game with someone rping Miko, I would call a change from LG to LN, she focused on law and order and doesn't care anymore about goodness or evilness.

Sure, its just my opinion. What I think is common sense is that she will be losing her powers, no matter if she changes alignment or not.

[rosebud]

One thing that I found strange in Miko way of thinking. In my perspective, if someone doesn't follow rules, he is neutralShojo (in Miko's perspective)
Associated with evil beings (OOTS)
Associated with evil assassins
Plotted to eliminate the Paladins
Plotted to eliminate the nobility who opposed him
Associated with an evil LichI don't see what's not evil about that, if you take her point of view. I disagree with her assumptions and method of judgement, but in her warped world, there's nothing neutral here.

What I do wonder is if any of the Southern Gods will show up. Or at least some of the Dwarven ones.

[ElfLad]

Belkar is True Neutral.

[Yzorth]

Um...

One evil act does not make you evil, HOWEVER, the paladin's code of conduct stipulates that if you commit one evil act, you loose your paladin powers because you broke the code.

I am often surprised how frequently people have mixed up the paladin's code of conduct and how the alignment system works.

Oh yeah. This argument is paraphrasing Rich's response to a question a while ago. Just a... btw.

[Whamme]

Shojo (in Miko's perspective)

Associated with evil beings (OOTS)
Associated with evil assassins
Plotted to eliminate the Paladins
Plotted to eliminate the nobility who opposed him
Associated with an evil LichI don't see what's not evil about that, if you take her point of view. I disagree with her assumptions and method of judgement, but in her warped world, there's nothing neutral here.

What I do wonder is if any of the Southern Gods will show up. Or at least some of the Dwarven ones.

Being an idiot apparently doesn't save Belkar or Thog from getting classified as evil (and remember, most of Belkar's victims were also evil - and Miko has happily slaughtered many, many sentient beings), so why should Miko get such a pass?

[Legendary]

Being an idiot apparently doesn't save Belkar or Thog from getting classified as evil (and remember, most of Belkar's victims were also evil - and Miko has happily slaughtered many, many sentient beings), so why should Miko get such a pass?

Ah, but there's the thing. Remember what Miko said a long, long time ago? "They were evil, so I killed them." Killing evil creatures because of their alignment is a GOOD act. Did Belkar kill any goblins because they were evil? No. He killed them because he wanted to make them suffer. And it was fun. And therein lies the difference.

Also, Belkar IS intelligent, just not wise, and Thog IS sentient, and therefore must have an alignment based off of the TOTAL SUM of his actions. Belkar and Thog have both constantly commited Chaotic Evil acts.

As of now, Miko has commited one chaotic evil act. ONE. And that's why some people think Miko isn't Chaotic Evil (or even True Neutral, or anything else) yet. It SHOULD be inarguable that it's enough to be dropped out of the paladin club, but it is not enough for alignment change.

My thoughts, Miko stops being a pally, but doesn't become a blackguard. Instead, she becomes more and more deluded as time goes on, perhaps even desperate to preform a good act, but constantly failing because she is no longer a paladin, and the only good act she knew how to do was to bump uglies. Er... smite evil. And she's too deluded to realize the difference anymore.

Perhaps she'll find a way to redeem herself. But she's risen herself up so far that she can't do it right now. Also, as of Comic 406, she's probably horrified, betrayed, exhausted (she's been riding on her horse for awhile), and about to learn that whole "pride goeth before the fall" junk.

I ALMOST feel bad for her. ALMOST.

[FullPlateJacket]

And this thread goes to show once again that roughly half of the people on this board don't understand the alignment rules. One act does not an alignment change make. Maybe if she slew the twelve gods or something, but otherwise...

To water down a "saying" I heard once: the way people view things these days, if a guy builds a thousand bridges and kills one person, he's not a bridge builder, he's a killer. Miko's alignment is defined by all of her previous actions combined with her present actions. Her paladinhood is as well, but they're different in that paladinhood rests upon having not comitted any evil acts, whilst a LG alignment is determined by her making Lawful and Good acts with Lawful and Good intents MOST OF THE TIME. Is Haley "evil" because she has definately has, if not frequently does cheat the rest of the party to get more gold/treasure for herself? Is Vaarsuvius Chaotic Evil because she cast Explosive Runes on eleven various objects with the malicious intent of harming Belkar? Is Thog lawful because he follows whatever rules and orders he is given by Nale? Anyone sane would tell you no. But Miko goes ape**** and attacks Shojo and suddenly half the board goes OMGWTF BLACKGUARD TIEM!!!1!!

People need to learn when to listen to the common sense (which is conveniently explained and re-explained in each of these threads) and just wait for the comic to explain everything. Jeez, people, The Giant gets to decide these things, and you saying "I think Miko goes crazy and evil and blackguard and she attacks and Belkar kills her and he becomes CG!!" won't cause him to change the plot of his story. Heck, he's probably already figured out how it's gonna work anyway.

Sorry for the rant, but these things tick me off.

[FullPlateJacket]

When I first saw 406 I first thought was "well this won't be debated much", my reasoning was that pro Miko groups would be to upset about the fall of their favorite character to respond, but much to my surprise, I see a LOT of people saying "Miko won't change alignment because she only killed ONE non evil person". consider the following example. It will center around a man called Joe who we will assume is LG

Joe is walking along one day, when suddenly Fred walks up to him and asks Joe if he would like to join a organization which he formed which is designed to help the poor get back on their feet. Joe accepts and proceeds over the next few years to help many poor people get back on their feet, and becomes a the third in command of this organization, then one day he is going to a meeting with Fred's second in command, when suddenly they both hear Fred conversing with some people. It sounds a bit like they might be stealing from the poor. They confront Fred and The Second in command says that they will tell the cops about it and have them investigate it in more detail, but this is not good enough for Joe, he gets angry and kills Fred, The Second in command calls the cops, and they put him on trial, Joe's defence. Oh I CAN'T be evil I only murdered ONE person.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE JURY WOULD SAY!!!

Plus, the laws of today are very much like paladinhood and the exact opposite of alignment. Our laws have nothing to do with good or evil - no matter which one you are, you've got your legality as long as you don't break the law. Paladinhood lasts until you commit one evil act. See the similarity?

Whereas lawbreakers are generally Evil, they don't have to be. A thief could steal just so he could feed his family.A man could steal money to pay a ransom on his grandma. These people are not inherently evil for doing so, but they broke the law.

[Sesquedoodle]

One evil act does not an alignment change make. However, this one evil act should cause her to lose her paladinhood.

BUT, I think that Miko's alignment has probably switched to LN. Not because of this one act, but because ever since she appeared in the comic she has acted in a way that has been closer to LN than LG. Killing Shojo is merely the final straw.
Frankly, if either of the paladins in my dungeon tried to play their character like Miko, I would have warned them quite quickly that if they kept this up for long they'd change alignments. I LIKE Miko, but that's not the way to play a paladin.

[Erk]

Yes, I can see a LN alignment switch being justified, but I don't think we will know if it happens or not. If she falls from paladinhood, her alignment becomes essentially unknown to us.

Of course, I am sure there will be many debates between various camps on the forum with absolute certainty of her alignment, and there will be at least nine of them.

[Angela Christine]

There are several different points being argued, and that confuses the issue.


1. Did killing Shojo cause her to Fall as a Paladin?



2. Did killing Shojo cause her Alignment to shift away from Lawful Good?



3. Did killing Shojo cause her Alignment to shift to Evil, making her eligible to become a Blackguard?

The answer to #1 can be "yes" (and probably is) without #2 automatically being yes as well. Killing Shojo may have been evil enough to make her fall, but not enough to make her change to another alignment. She may be a Lawful Good warrior. One hasty mistake isn't necessarily enough to change her entire world view. Her alignment could slip, but I don't think we've seen enough to prove that it already has.


Just as a mental exercise, I also considered another question.


4. Is there any way that Miko killing Shojo may not have been evil nor illegal under Azure City's (unknown) laws?
Azure City has some odd laws, like being able to arrest people accused of weakening the fabric of the universe in an entirely different jurisdiction. They appear to have a secret and somewhat extreme code governing what can be done in the name of protecting the Gates.

They are also at war, though no one but Miko knew it. If everyone knew what she knew, the city would probably have been placed under Martial Law. Under martial laws the rules change, and the military may have the authority to summarily execute suspected traitors to protect the city.

If they both held positions (even ceremonial positions) within the military, Shojo and Miko may also have been subject to Military Law, which can be considerably more harsh than civilian law.

It is possible that under Martial Law, Military Law, or Secret Gate Protection Law, the sort of Treason she accused him of would be a capital offence. Under those same laws it is also possible that she (as a senior paladin/samurai) had the legal right and responsibility to act as Judge, Jury and Executioner during a time of National Emergency. If she did have that right, then it is possible that her actions are neither illegal nor evil. :smalleek:



Avoiding evil would be tricky, but not necessarily impossible. Assume that Shojo was not guilty of Treason, and was not Evil.

The alignment system does not require that a Justice System achieve a 100% accuracy rate. If an innocent man is mistakenly convicted of a capital crime and executed, neither the judge nor the executioner are guilty of Evil. If there is systemic corruption that leads to many innocent people being executed then it's evil, but a single mistake is not evil. If Miko was acting properly as Judge, Jury, and Executioner, the very embodiment of Azure City's Justice system, then she could make a mistake that is just a mistake, and not an evil act.


There are plenty of occasions when killing a non-Evil individual is not an evil act. Paladins can participate in war and kill enemy soldiers without first casting detect evil on every single enemy combatant. They may even accidentally kill a civilian or friendly unit by mistake. Fog of War, friendly fire, etc. etc. When cleaning out a nest of mostly evil creatures like goblins, they might kill a Good teenage goblin who just happens to get in the way.



Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#alignment) and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison), and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.


Hinjo was in the process of relieving Shojo of authority, so she might be ok on the respecting legitimate authority requirement. The Code also says to punish those who harm or threaten innocents (and inviting in a bloody huge hobgoblin army would certainly qualify as threatening the innocent citizens of the city). It doesn't say apprehend them and haul them of for trial, it says punish them.




Personally, I believe killing Shojo was an evil act and would cause Miko to fall. However, if the stars lined up just right, there is a whisper of a chance that the cosmic referees might rule her actions a regrettable mistake, but not an act of evil.

[Whamme]

Ah, but there's the thing. Remember what Miko said a long, long time ago? "They were evil, so I killed them." Killing evil creatures because of their alignment is a GOOD act. Did Belkar kill any goblins because they were evil? No. He killed them because he wanted to make them suffer. And it was fun. And therein lies the difference.

Also, Belkar IS intelligent, just not wise, and Thog IS sentient, and therefore must have an alignment based off of the TOTAL SUM of his actions. Belkar and Thog have both constantly commited Chaotic Evil acts.

As of now, Miko has commited one chaotic evil act. ONE. And that's why some people think Miko isn't Chaotic Evil (or even True Neutral, or anything else) yet. It SHOULD be inarguable that it's enough to be dropped out of the paladin club, but it is not enough for alignment change.

My thoughts, Miko stops being a pally, but doesn't become a blackguard. Instead, she becomes more and more deluded as time goes on, perhaps even desperate to preform a good act, but constantly failing because she is no longer a paladin, and the only good act she knew how to do was to bump uglies. Er... smite evil. And she's too deluded to realize the difference anymore.

Perhaps she'll find a way to redeem herself. But she's risen herself up so far that she can't do it right now. Also, as of Comic 406, she's probably horrified, betrayed, exhausted (she's been riding on her horse for awhile), and about to learn that whole "pride goeth before the fall" junk.

I ALMOST feel bad for her. ALMOST.

'They were evil, so I killed them' can as easily be the words of a serial killer as a Paladin. More likely the former than the latter, really.

She's killed people and/or viciously wounded them on shaky premises as a general pattern of behaviour. Not correcting this behaviour shows a callous disregard for the lives of others - her ability to judge how people will behave has been insanely flawed right from the beginning. She even knows this.

Yet she has taken no steps to ensure that she doesn't kill people who don't deserve it. She simply takes any available pretext to kill her targets and kills them, even if there's a reasonable chance they may be Good (or at the very least, have done nothing wrong).

Samantha and Father. The OOTS. And now Shojo. Everytime she has had to deal with any kind of moral complexity she has ended up trying to kill someone who did not need to die, because she has made a mistake in understanding people.

She should know that she is a lousy judge of character by now.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Belkar is True Neutral.

I think he's more Chaotic Good, in his own way. I mean, by helping to save the world, he's doing more good in five minutes than most people do in an entire lifetime, and in the end, isn't that what counts? Life over law!

Anyway, I think Rich is the one who should fall. For one wilful act of plot railroading and character abuse! Think about it. Miko goes incrementally insane by jumping to conclusions that make no sense. Shojo goes all Harry Pottery and makes sure a super sekret conversation is overheard. Then both Miko and Shojo say all the ill-considered things leading up to the Big Cut, while everyone else just gawks. Why?

Because the power of plot compels them.

Blame not the puppets. Follow the strings.

And that is the gospel according to Crafty.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Miko killed Shojo in a fit of rage. Her actions were entirely based of her anger at her believing that her mentor betraying her beliefs (and she is sort of correct). Miko did not kill Shojo because she knew it would help people, she killed him because at that moment she wanted to. If she was good she would have prioritised the safety of the city. However she deliberately ignored Hinjo's desire to protect the city from the Hobgoblins in order to act on impulse. Miko's actions were in no way good. She might not change her alignment, but if she was a Jedi she would have fallen to the dark side.

As well as not being good, Miko's actions also are not lawful. First there's the simple fact that she chose to ignore the laws made by Shojo. However more important is that eliminating the city's ruler will cause chaos. Killing a mugger in self defence without a trial isn't strictly lawful but won't change your alignment. Willingly destroying the foundation of a society is a completly chaotic act. Killing Shojo is not "one evil act" since his death will cause massive reprecussions that will be negative. Miko has done more than breaking a law, she has deliberately undermined a lawful society.

To sumerise the previous two paragraphs, Miko's actions have been opposed to both parts of her alignment. Miko has now screwed over her entire city. The death of Shojo will destroy the mundane soldier's moral and polarise the Saphire Guard into a civil war. Azure city now has nobody to organise it's defence. The rest of the Saphire guard won't know whether or not Miko was justified and might not be too happy to take orders from Hinjo who despite being the new ruler due to lineage I don't believe he has a very high rank among Paladins.

When Miko stands in the ruins of the city she undermined in it's darkest hour, she won't be lawful good.

[Serenity]

Yes, one act CAN change your alignment!The DMG specifically states that, while rare, a total and immediate alignment shift is possible. If it's decreed as within the realm of possibility for the most horrible Chaotic Evil villain to have a sudden change of heart and become Lawful Good, it's eminently possible--and far more likely, since a fall is easier than redemption--for a noble soul to become twisted and fall to evil.

If a Paladin character--or any character--in a campaign I was running suddenly flipped out and killed an old man, they fall to Chaotic or Neutral Evil. If they preface it with a rant about the old man being a traitor and corrupt, they become Lawful Evil. If they preface the entire encounter by skirting the edge of good and demonstrating a consistent inerest in the Lawful aspect of their alignment over the good...then it's not just one act anymore, and I follow the typical rules on alignment shifts and declare that they're now Lawful Neutral.

[Alfryd]

Besides, Alignments are complicated and confusing. Don't get all worked up over this.
There is *nothing* complicated and confusing about Miko's latest misdemeanour. Her motives have certain decorative aspects, but the act itself was very straightforward.

I'd be tempted to put together a summary rebuttal thread for all the people claiming that Miko shouldn't fall- instantly and definitively- but I suspect it will prove unnecesary come Tuesday.

[PirateMonk]

I think he's more Chaotic Good, in his own way.




Belkar is True Neutral.

Lies! Belkar is Chaotic Evil! <Lunges at them, stabs them, and takes their kidneys> Two more merit awards for me!

Very few people have said Miko won't fall. In fact, I've only seen one, and he was fairly plausibly accused of trolling.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Very few people have said Miko won't fall. In fact, I've only seen one, and he was fairly plausibly accused of trolling.

Actually, if you look at the "Should Miko lose her powaz" thread, nearly 10% voted for one of the "nay" alternatives. I've seen more than a handful people argue along the lines of "what if the gods weren't too happy with Shojo either" or "if she'd been a protagonist and actually happened to be right, people would be cheering". Not entirely convincing, but not exactly trolling either.

If Rich really wanted everyone to go "double wtf" at this point, he'd let her keep her powers, then back it up with some revelation or explanation that'd have everyone going "ooooh" and "aaaah". Of course, he's likely to have planned all this out a long time ago, and unfortunately, the plan is likely to include a de-dignified Miko.

Also I need them kidneys.

[teratorn]

If Rich really wanted everyone to go "double wtf" at this point, he'd let her keep her powers, then back it up with some revelation or explanation that'd have everyone going "ooooh" and "aaaah". Of course, he's likely to have planned all this out a long time ago, and unfortunately, the plan is likely to include a de-dignified Miko.

Up to now it was well done. It's fun arguing but these characters have no free will. The Giant could have done any number of things. He made her fall without changing her. She was Miko up to the big climatic killing. Same thing with Shojo.

It's after the act that she will change, because of the consequences.

[Chikin'Soup]

Actually, I don't belive that Miko would lose her powers. Slicing Shojo, the way she did, was certainly unlawful, but not evil. Allow me to explain, :smallsmile:.

Imagine if Shojo was evil, and all that was true. And if Miko was right all along.
Would it still be evil? Killing an evil ruler is actually a good act.

Miko is, as I see it, simply somewhat insane.

A paladin loses powers by EVIL actions, not unlawful ones (Correct me if wrong).

So Miko did a wrong action, not an evil action.

[Serenity]

That might hold water...IF Shojo was actually guilty. Or IF she wasn't able to subdue him and lock him up in one of those anti-magic cells. Or IF she didn't arrive at the conclusion by a chain of logic that would give Rube Goldberg a headache. Or IF being an insane was a valid excuse for Paladins not to lose their powers.

[teratorn]

Actually, I don't belive that Miko would lose her powers. Slicing Shojo, the way she did, was certainly unlawful, but not evil. Allow me to explain, :smallsmile:.

Imagine if Shojo was evil, and all that was true. And if Miko was right all along.
Would it still be evil? Killing an evil ruler is actually a good act.

Miko is, as I see it, simply somewhat insane.

A paladin loses powers by EVIL actions, not unlawful ones (Correct me if wrong).

So Miko did a wrong action, not an evil action.

To someone who knows what really was going on, she killed an old man not able to defend himself. That is the thing the gods will likely judge and that's evil. Thinks like Shojo being a deceiver, that she had been always in the wrong place at the wrong time doesn't count for purposes of alignment. It is the will to commit the act that counts not the good intentions.

But I agree with you that if she were right nothing would happen for she would be saving the city.

[Solara]

I don't know whether Miko's alignment will shift, though if she continues down this path I could eventually see her becoming LN at the least.

What really gets me is the surprising number of people ready to argue till they're blue in the face that Shojo was an evil tyrant and Miko was doing the gods' will and won't fall for killing him. (OT but I've always been disappointed that this board doesn't have any little emoticons that are rolling their eyes, because I would use them a lot... Here for instance.)

[Justinian]

That might hold water...IF Shojo was actually guilty. Or IF she wasn't able to subdue him and lock him up in one of those anti-magic cells. Or IF she didn't arrive at the conclusion by a chain of logic that would give Rube Goldberg a headache. Or IF being an insane was a valid excuse for Paladins not to lose their powers.


I think the act of killing Shojo was evil because of his innocence of collaboration with Xykon, and his overall arguably good alignment and good intentions... but of course, it's worth noting that he swore the same oaths as his paladins, and he broke them.

If any Paladin disobeyed Soon Kim's laws so blatantly, what do you think would happen to him? What do you think the punishment would have been?

Shojo really was an old fool and an oathbreaker. He wasn't an evil man and he didn't deserve a summary execution, but he was guilty of plenty, and very much earned a removal from power and a trial for treason.

[Setra]

She may still be LG for now, though even I will admit she will probably decline at this rate, and has already fallen.

Still, in a time of "war" things are different. A War Hero in a time of peace is simply a mass murderer. When you have an army marching towards your peaceful city, certain things might be a bit different.

Also, a Jury says that it is McDonalds fault that a lady spilled friggin Coffee on herself. Fine this arguement was flawed, but my point still stands. The Jury system is flawed, and stupid.

[Serenity]

The Jury system said that McDonalds shouldn't have been keeping their coffee at a temperature that caused third-degree burns. Get your facts straight.

[cucchulainnn]

Hi
Miko is nothing but a fanatic she is no different then catholic inquisitors, protestant witch trials, Taliban, Vladimir lenin, mao say tung, the list goes on. She has been skirting the dark side for a wile now. What do that all have in common. Lets start whit the inquisitors. We have torture the heretics because we need to protect them from going to hell which is far worse then anything we could do a few moments of pain to head off an eternity of hell. The protestant witch trials, the one I am most familure with took place in salem mass. I guarantee every one I mentioned above thought of them selves as lawful good. Most people who are evil think they are good. Do you think Hitler thought of him self as evil or that the holocaust was necessary to save germany? He thought of himself as good. Just like miko.

Good and evils depend on what side of the table you are on. If the prosecuted person is innocent then your actions are evil if the person is guilty they your actions are good. Miko acts with out finding out first she acts on assumptions.

Good and evil are not so easy to deal with. I am a Machiavellian and yes sometimes as a leader you have to do evil things for the greater good. For instance during world war two the English broke the enigma code and could have used the broken code to save lives. Doing so would have tip off the germans that the code is broke causing them come up with a new code. This would have made the war last longer then cost how many hundreds of thousands of lives. Do you save 10 lives or 1,000?

Just to finish up I like miko, I think her character brings something to the table and is a good adversary for the order of the sick. From this point going forward I would play her as believing the gods have abandoner her because she was too nice to the unbelievers, she must for the good of every one be far harder on the heretics. Her powers have failed because she went far to easy on evil doers. As the only person who understands this makes anyone who disagrees with her obviously on the side of the evil.

[cucchulainnn]

An other thing shojo's kingdom is it a constitutional monarchy, a monarchy, a dictatorship, imperial, is there a congress or governing body or is he it. it seems to me to be a theocracy like old Persian empire of Darius and Xerxes. Because if he is it with out some kind of constitution then nothing he dose can be treason.

[Serenity]

Hinjo says there's a system to try Shojo, ergo there is. No reason to believe that Hinjo is completely and totally ignorant of the judicial workings of a city he's going to be in charge of one day.

[wowy319]

You're absolutely right. There is no way to justify her actions. If she was an expert on smiting evil, she should have known that liches can come back.Miko made a decision based off of her dislike of the order, then killed her sovereign. There is NO WAY that can be justified. Period. Miko committed a thouroghly evil and chaotic act that cannot be reconciled in any way, and I just can't see how people believe that it isn't alignment changing.

[Ampersand]

There are several different points being argued, and that confuses the issue.


1. Did killing Shojo cause her to Fall as a Paladin?



2. Did killing Shojo cause her Alignment to shift away from Lawful Good?



3. Did killing Shojo cause her Alignment to shift to Evil, making her eligible to become a Blackguard?

Quoted for truth and effect.

A paladin falling does not necessitate a change in alignment. Though I suppose the term "falling" itself confuses the issue, and people seem to think that if you're at the top the only place you can stop is the bottom.

Without any numbers or any real proof to back it up, I think that the vast majority of people agree that Miko should fall for her actions. I also believe there's a contingent who believes that there's some vast conspiracy that's trying to "excuse" Miko somehow, and everyone who doesn't agree with the statement "ZOMG BLACKGUARD!!!!!!1~!!!!!11!one!!eleven!!!!" is a member...quite like the accusations often levied against a character in the strip whose name I can't remember at the moment, in fact... :smallwink:

[Serenity]

I take a certain amount of umbrage at the characterization of all who believe Blackguard is a possibility as 'ZOMG BLACKGUARD!!!!!' A number of cogent arguments have been made as to how she could enter the class without being out of character. Blackguard Miko would essentially be Rorschach of Watchmen fame.

[Solara]

I take a certain amount of umbrage at the characterization of all who believe Blackguard is a possibility as 'ZOMG BLACKGUARD!!!!!' A number of cogent arguments have been made as to how she could enter the class without being out of character. Blackguard Miko would essentially be Rorschach of Watchmen fame.

Seconded.

I think that if Miko continues down this path, attacking Hinjo next, perhaps, we'll eventually see at least a temporary alignment shift before the inevitable 'redemption' story arc (though anyone who believes that very likely also falls into Ampersand's 'ZOMG BLACKGUARD!!!11one1!! category), though I don't know or really care all that much about whether she becomes a Blackguard or not.

As I've said before, I think she's intelligent and fanatical enough that she could be a perfectly respectable antagonist even while being a 'fighter without bonus feats'.

The only evidence I've seen that she might go the Blackguard route is the amount of manuevering Rich has done to have Sabine in close proximity at the exact same time Miko falls - hard to believe that's a coincidence.

[Justinian]

I take a certain amount of umbrage at the characterization of all who believe Blackguard is a possibility as 'ZOMG BLACKGUARD!!!!!' A number of cogent arguments have been made as to how she could enter the class without being out of character. Blackguard Miko would essentially be Rorschach of Watchmen fame.

You think Rorschach is evil? :smallconfused:

He's the only decent hero in the bunch. He has strong, absolutist moral principles that he never compromises. He's not a fallen paladin, he's more like a Vhailor or a Judge Dredd, a LN enforcer with no mercy.

[Serenity]

Alignment-wise I'd rate him as either Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil. Don't get me wrong, he's an awesome character, and probably the major reason I love it. But there's no denying that he's a psychopath whose vision of right and wrong is more than a little twisted. Blackguard Miko would similarly deal out merciless punishment on all she percieved as evil or stood in the way of that.

[Justinian]

I dunno, I think his vision of good and evil is fairly on the money, I just think lacking any compassion or mercy whatsoever makes it impossible to see him as Good. It would be easy to play a Lawful Good Paladin like Rorschach was before he caught the guy that kidnapped that little girl.

After he found out what he did to that little girl, and dealt retribution, he was locked-in-place as LN from that point on, but in the endgame of the whole comic, he was the only hero with the decency to try to do the right thing.

Someone so strongly absolutist is terrifically relevant to a discussion on Paladins though, so thank's for bringing it up.

* * *

To be honest though, if I were playing a Paladin, and I investigated a murder, and found what Rorschach found? I'd smite the kidnapper to death, and I wouldn't fall for it. That guy was Evil.

[Serenity]

Perhaps not the perfect comparison, true, but it illustrates the point that Miko the Blackguard would be a monster who believes herself the one true hero.

Can the right thing be the same as the action that destroys the world? (Not saying I necessarily support Veidt's plan or NIte Owl et al's decision to accept it, just playing devil's advocate.)

[Justinian]

This is more relevant to a discussion on Paladins and Miko than you may have intended.

Fair warning [spoilers] for Watchmen ahoy!


* * *

Veidt was a utilitarian monster that deserved to be punished for the deaths of millions. Utilitarianism is generally wellmeaning, I mean, look at Shojo, he figured everything he did was for the greater good, be it forsaking his oaths, lying to his family and underlings, etc, but Veidt is utilitarianism's ugly side revealed with full force.

It doesn't matter what the Russian premier did or would do. It doesn't matter what the American president did or would do. Ozymandias killed innocent people, and he did it deliberately. Just because he did it in the interest of stopping impending global thermonuclear war does not make it right - he deserved to be punished, and the truth needed to be told. Rorschach was killed because he believed that sitting back and doing nothing, like the others (whom I would call cowards and collaborators), was morally wrong.

You are not responsible for what someone else may do as the consequence of you doing the right thing.

Let's put it in other terms. If I saw a situation where 1000 people over there were going to die, and I had the power to flip a switch and kill 1 other guy over here instead, I would not flick the switch, because I do not have the right to kill the one guy, which is what I would be doing. I would be judging his life as worth less than the lives of others.

The only person whom I always have the moral right to sacrifice is myself, i.e. I am allowed to die to save 1000 other people, but I cannot kill to save 1000 people.

Whereas Ozymandias felt comfortable killing millions to save billions.

[Serenity]

I agree, though I wouldn't have the conviction to reveal the plot myself.

We admire Rorschach because he did not take the easy way out in the face of an agonizingly difficult choice. Miko did take the easy way out: there was a possibility that Shojo had the clout to rig his own trial, so she merely killed him because it was more expedient.

That sounded mnore coherent in my head...and Justinian, I'm not accusing you of excusing Miko's actions, it was just a point that occured to me.

[Thexare Blademoon]

Let's put it in other terms. If I saw a situation where 1000 people over there were going to die, and I had the power to flip a switch and kill 1 other guy over here instead, I would not flick the switch, because I do not have the right to kill the one guy, which is what I would be doing. I would be judging his life as worth less than the lives of others.

This exact comparison, with a few extraneous details, came up here before... though maybe not in the OotS forum. And if you're put in that position, like it or not, by not flipping that switch you would be directly responsible for the deaths of the other thousand people, just to appease your conscience.

Tell me again how that's the lesser evil, because I think I missed it the first time.



As for Miko, I'll repeat what I said elsewhere, but in greater detail this time. Yes, I would say this act pushes her into LN territory, not because it's one evil action, but because of the history leading up to this. She's always been close to LN, focusing on law much more than on good, and this act showed a complete disregard for the principles of Good, a point she's been working toward for a while I think. Before you bring up Miko trying to warn the city about Xykon, I could call that Lawful just as much as Good; Lawful people want to keep order, and it's hard to keep order when there's a horde of hobgoblins smashing your city.

[Justinian]

This exact comparison, with a few extraneous details, came up here before... though maybe not in the OotS forum. And if you're put in that position, like it or not, by not flipping that switch you would be directly responsible for the deaths of the other thousand people, just to appease your conscience.

Tell me again how that's the lesser evil, because I think I missed it the first time.

For purposes of the ethical / intellectual / philosophical exercise, the mere action of not hitting the switch does not mean you created the situation. If it were an out-of-control train, and you were near the switch that would change the path of the train, the person responsible for the 1000 people would be the one that does maintenance on the train - not you.

Of course, while this is purely hypothetical and unrealistic, the principles are applicable to any number of real-world situations.

[Thexare Blademoon]

For purposes of the ethical / intellectual / philosophical exercise, the mere action of not hitting the switch does not mean you created the situation. If it were an out-of-control train, and you were near the switch that would change the path of the train, the person responsible for the 1000 people would be the one that does maintenance on the train - not you.

Of course, while this is purely hypothetical and unrealistic, the principles are applicable to any number of real-world situations.
Whether you're responsible for the situation or not, if you're in that situation and you choose to doom a thousand people so you don't have to kill one directly, you are also at least partially to blame. I don't see any room for argument there, myself...

And I'll try to stop taking this off-topic now. <_<

[teratorn]

To put things back on topic and on a lighter note. Shojo pretended to have a being of pure Law and Good giving the veredict at the OOTS trial. One needs to be impressed at the way the old guy made fun of his paladins. The guy really had no respect for their convictions.

[Ampersand]

I take a certain amount of umbrage at the characterization of all who believe Blackguard is a possibility as 'ZOMG BLACKGUARD!!!!!' A number of cogent arguments have been made as to how she could enter the class without being out of character. Blackguard Miko would essentially be Rorschach of Watchmen fame.

Because, to me at least, most of the people calling for Miko seem to be doing so for two primary reasons: First, it's somehow punishment for being a big mean poopie head to the OotS, while at the same time crowing about how they knew that it was impossible for anyone who was mean to Our Heroes could be any shade of good (or Good). And second because it will give the OotS a "Kill Miko, No Moral Qualms Attached" ticket.

I have no problems with a fall-and-redemption story. My main point is, falling does not instantly make someone a Blackguard. Miko has already fallen...losing the paladin grace is significant in of itself, even if she loses nothing else. In fact, there are four stages of fall that Miko could go through: losing paladin status, going to Lawful Neutral, going to Lawful Evil, and going Blackguard. So there are more options than "Miko the Paladin antagonist" and "Miko the Blackguard antagonist."

I don't want to see Miko go Blackguard because I feel it would be both lame and redundant. Lame because it'd be just like every other fallen hero story in existance...a lot of Miko's strength to begin with was that she was a non-standard antagonist, and I don't see how making her the standard generic boogyman of fantasy would be positive character growth (from a story telling perspective). Redundant because we already have Nale and Sabine for the over the top, old-school-rock & roll-feigned villanry.

[Tussy the Druid]

Actually, I don't belive that Miko would lose her powers. Slicing Shojo, the way she did, was certainly unlawful, but not evil. Allow me to explain, :smallsmile:.

Imagine if Shojo was evil, and all that was true. And if Miko was right all along.
Would it still be evil? Killing an evil ruler is actually a good act.

Miko is, as I see it, simply somewhat insane.

A paladin loses powers by EVIL actions, not unlawful ones (Correct me if wrong).

So Miko did a wrong action, not an evil action.


"Hey it's not might fault. I only killed millions of people because in my little world I thought they were evil"

Insanity isn't an excuse. Besides. Shojo isn't evil. You're basing that entire arguement on the premises that Shojo is evil, when he isn't.

[Coffee_Dragon]

We admire Rorschach because he did not take the easy way out in the face of an agonizingly difficult choice. Miko did take the easy way out: there was a possibility that Shojo had the clout to rig his own trial, so she merely killed him because it was more expedient.

I'm confused. Miko's attitude towards Shojo was described in the comic thread as "Let justice be done, though the heavens fall" - meaning she doesn't care whether Shojo did everything for a reason or whether his death is terribly inopportune, she demands justice (as she sees it) above all other considerations. This is exactly Rorschach's stance at the end of Watchmen; he'll undo everything that happened in the comic in order to satisfy his personal sense of rightness. But you say he is admirable and she is despicable?

[cucchulainnn]

I see miko going rouge. I don’t see her joining the blackguard and becoming an anti paladin. If that is not longer the correct term let me know. I haven’t played D&D since the late 1980’s with the advance rules. When I d.m.ed I would play it one of two ways. First is her abilities are lost but in her fanaticism she doesn’t realize it for some time. I would just manifest the abilities in new ways with out telling her. I’ve always felt magic is as much believing it will work as much as anything else. For instance she might think she is using detect evil even thoe it no longer works and still rely on the results. I could see her being in total denial about no longer being a paladin. The second would be after she calms down she realizes the absence of the presence of her god. Then she would go about trying to either repent or go nuts because her gods abandoned her or possibly just getting angry at every one, i.e. “I didn’t abandon the god they abandoned me and there for must be evil them selves.”. I don’t see her joining any one she has always thought of as bad guys for any reason.

I’m not sure if this still holds water but the orginal idea of paladins was based on Arthurian mythology, Lancelot, Galahad, Perivale. Lancelot became a fallen paladin because of adultery. What miko did is far worse.

Last point the giant writes a fall from grace far better the george lucas, atakins conversion to the dark side has to be the lamest thing I’ve ever saw.

[Serenity]

I'm not arguing that she'll become a blackguard immediately. I'm saying her quickening descent towards 'the ends justify the means' and 'I am the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong' seem to me possible 'hooks' for becoming one, that if she doesn't backpedal quickly, she'll wind up the tool of evil. My progression is the same as yours. She just shifted to LN and is in serious danger of reaching LE, especially if Sabine or some other fiend takes an interest, at which point she could well become a blackguard.


Frankly, killing Shojo already gives the OotS a license to kill her if she doesn't stand down immediately. And if she's going to be an enemy doing combat with the Order, she simply can't compete as a Fighter without bonus feats.

Nor can she atone and remain a recurring character. Atonement for the offense she just commited would require a major quest that Rich can't follow--the OotS are the main characters after all, not Miko, and it's their quests we have to focus on. Redemption for Miko could only come via heroic sacrifice or sending her on a quest and we never hear from her again. Neither of which are as interesting, in my mind, as blackkguard who has deluded herself that she is yet a paladin, hunting down the OotS because she truly believes they are evil.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I see miko going rouge.

If she sleeps on rocks, I doubt she'll stop to worry about makeup.

[Serenity]

I'm confused. Miko's attitude towards Shojo was described in the comic thread as "Let justice be done, though the heavens fall" - meaning she doesn't care whether Shojo did everything for a reason or whether his death is terribly inopportune, she demands justice (as she sees it) above all other considerations. This is exactly Rorschach's stance at the end of Watchmen; he'll undo everything that happened in the comic in order to satisfy his personal sense of rightness. But you say he is admirable and she is despicable?

Like I said, the point made a lot more sense in my head...

[Whamme]

Actually, I don't belive that Miko would lose her powers. Slicing Shojo, the way she did, was certainly unlawful, but not evil. Allow me to explain, :smallsmile:.

Imagine if Shojo was evil, and all that was true. And if Miko was right all along.
Would it still be evil? Killing an evil ruler is actually a good act.

Miko is, as I see it, simply somewhat insane.

A paladin loses powers by EVIL actions, not unlawful ones (Correct me if wrong).

So Miko did a wrong action, not an evil action.

Imagine a drunk wizard throwing a Fireball spell into a crowded tavern.
By sheer luck, and against all the odds, it only incinerates some evil people who were in disguise.

Is this really a good action?

[rosebud]

Being an idiot apparently doesn't save Belkar or Thog from getting classified as evil (and remember, most of Belkar's victims were also evil - and Miko has happily slaughtered many, many sentient beings), so why should Miko get such a pass?I wasn't referring to the nature of Miko's actions, but merely to her interpretation of Shojo's actions. In her view, he was guilty of great evil. (It's too bad she never received a Phantom Toolbooth when she was younger. It might of cured her habit of jumping to conclusions.)

Of course, she didn't do "Smite Evil", so, in my view, she knew that he was not evil. Had she done smite evil, he would have been untouched.

Regarding the other speculation, it's kinda silly. Though I can say that Nale's crew probably just got a very lucky break.

[Whamme]

I'm not arguing that she'll become a blackguard immediately. I'm saying her quickening descent towards 'the ends justify the means' and 'I am the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong' seem to me possible 'hooks' for becoming one, that if she doesn't backpedal quickly, she'll wind up the tool of evil. My progression is the same as yours. She just shifted to LN and is in serious danger of reaching LE, especially if Sabine or some other fiend takes an interest, at which point she could well become a blackguard.


Frankly, killing Shojo already gives the OotS a license to kill her if she doesn't stand down immediately. And if she's going to be an enemy doing combat with the Order, she simply can't compete as a Fighter without bonus feats.

Nor can she atone and remain a recurring character. Atonement for the offense she just commited would require a major quest that Rich can't follow--the OotS are the main characters after all, not Miko, and it's their quests we have to focus on. Redemption for Miko could only come via heroic sacrifice or sending her on a quest and we never hear from her again. Neither of which are as interesting, in my mind, as blackkguard who has deluded herself that she is yet a paladin, hunting down the OotS because she truly believes they are evil.

A Quest? Like saving the world side by side with a group of plucky heroes who she detests despite being at fault for the friction in their relationship?

Yeah, we'd never see her again if she did that.

Not that I can see Miko ever admitting she was wrong about something.

[Serenity]

No cleric with more than two braincells to rub together would send her on a quest side by side with the OotS. Good luck getting them to agree to it for one thing. Good luckw ith Belkar not slitting her throat as soon as they're outside the bounds of a city for another.

[Solharath]

No cleric with more than two braincells to rub together would send her on a quest side by side with the OotS. Good luck getting them to agree to it for one thing. Good luckw ith Belkar not slitting her throat as soon as they're outside the bounds of a city for another.

As we've seen with the last cleric, though, he didn't have many brain cells that rubbed together. (Although, he might have been a wizard, as his name was Wizard Guy.) But the prospect of Miko traveling with the OotS seems better then having her dissappear, as Shojo and Roy's Dad could come up at any time and probably railroad the plot to be so.

[dcviana]

Shojo (in Miko's perspective)
Associated with evil beings (OOTS)
Associated with evil assassins
Plotted to eliminate the Paladins
Plotted to eliminate the nobility who opposed him
Associated with an evil LichI don't see what's not evil about that, if you take her point of view. I disagree with her assumptions and method of judgement, but in her warped world, there's nothing neutral here.

What I do wonder is if any of the Southern Gods will show up. Or at least some of the Dwarven ones.


My point is, why she think Shojo is associated with evil beigns? Why she thinks the OOTS is evil? Why she think Shojo plotted to eliminate the Paladins?

She doesn't have a good reason. To HER it can be a good reason, but the truth is that she think Shojo and the OOTS are evil because they're not lawful. They don't follow rules that she can understand, and to her those that doesn't follow rules are evil.

It's not so uncommon to think that way. Robin Wood helped the poor, but someone might think "he is a criminal, he is a thief, so he is evil".

[BOBinsox]

Until now, I had agreed with everyone who said miko was neutral or lawful neutral...
UNTIL SHE HIT HINJO.
Killing Shojo WAS an evil act, but she thought she was lied to,
And with your mentor, that's a big lie, it was an act of ignorance, or something like that. Hitting Hinjo was BLATANT abuse of her "Killing out of ignorance" because she DID IT AGAIN! Miko THINKS she follows the laws, but she is following chaos/evil too much right now to be a paladin.
I'm not sure if that gives out my point...

[Lord Zentei]

When I first saw 406 I first thought was "well this won't be debated much", my reasoning was that pro Miko groups would be to upset about the fall of their favorite character to respond, but much to my surprise, I see a LOT of people saying "Miko won't change alignment because she only killed ONE non evil person". consider the following example. It will center around a man called Joe who we will assume is LG

Joe is walking along one day, when suddenly Fred walks up to him and asks Joe if he would like to join a organization which he formed which is designed to help the poor get back on their feet. Joe accepts and proceeds over the next few years to help many poor people get back on their feet, and becomes a the third in command of this organization, then one day he is going to a meeting with Fred's second in command, when suddenly they both hear Fred conversing with some people. It sounds a bit like they might be stealing from the poor. They confront Fred and The Second in command says that they will tell the cops about it and have them investigate it in more detail, but this is not good enough for Joe, he gets angry and kills Fred, The Second in command calls the cops, and they put him on trial, Joe's defence. Oh I CAN'T be evil I only murdered ONE person.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE JURY WOULD SAY!!!

Chill, dude. You are confusing guilt in a criminal case with Alignment change. The latter is not as instantaneous a process. Moreover, there is such a thing as "temporary insanity".

And yes, Miko has changed alignments now, after she attacked Hinjo too.

[Adeptus]

Look at Miko's satisfied expression when she is stabbing Hinjo. Think of her motivation for the fight. She's not reluctantly trying to fight her way past him, she's trying to ****ing kill him.

And why? Because "she is special" and Hinjo, to whom she is superior in her own mind, refuses to see it.

Miko has descended to full out evil. And to think how many people here thought that her self righteousness was not at odds with her goodess. Miko is a full blown basket case. She is special, and the world revolves around her.

[Rhialto]

I think what's happening to Miko is the quinessential existential crisis.

Miko had no problem being Lawful Good--when it was (for her, anyway) easy. Smiting bad guys and monsters, helping out the occasional dirt farmer--as long as it was easy and obvious, Miko could walk the path of paladin blindfolded.

But the problem was while she followed the strictures of Law and Good, she never really got into the mentality of Law and Good. Oh, she revered and respected it, in a sort of abstract way, but somewhere along the way, the thoughts behind the rules got lost. And so, when she found herself in a situation that was a bit murky--that required patience and trying to think things through instead of smiting on autopilot--she got confused and ultimately acted on what she had come to feel was the proper way.

Unfortunately, the way she acted was Chaotic Evil. And she's kept acting Chaotic Evil since then.

If she keeps at it, expect to see Miko the Deluded Blackguard, in black and red, destroying cities for "the cause of law and good!"

[TinSoldier]

I see miko going rouge.What? She's going to turn red instead of tan or blue or black?

:wink:

[Setra]

What? She's going to turn red instead of tan or blue or black?

:wink:
She's more of a purple.

[TinSoldier]

Not if she's rouge.

In fact, she can be Baton Rouge if she still has a stick up her ass.

[Solara]

Not if she's rouge.

In fact, she can be Baton Rouge if she still has a stick up her ass.

Making awful puns is an Evil act. Don't ever do it again or I will be forced to Smite you.

[Demented]

Every time you make a rouge pun, a Paladin falls from grace.

And a small part of me dies violently in an exploding, bloody display.

[Wyborn]

Whoa, who compared Rorschach to Miko?

[Krellen]

This point isn't being stressed enough, and I think it's causing a lot of alignment confusions here:

Killing Evil for being Evil is NOT Good! It is, at best, Neutral. Good does not equal "combating evil". Good has to do with helping and protecting people and not directly combating forces that destroy and harm people. That's why St. Cuthbert is Lawful Neutral. He's unconcerned for alleving the plight of man; he's concerned for stopping and combating evil whereever it appears. If people understood this, we'd probably have less alignment conflicts (less, not none.)

Killing Evil that is doing Evil might be Good - if it is the most effective means of disrupting the evil deed in process. When there are other means more or equally effective that are more in line with Good, however, it becomes less Good, perhaps even to the point of Neutral.

Miko has never been particularly Good, because she's always (remember her response to Shojo's original orders (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html)) been far too willing to stab things in vengeance rather than set things right.

[Lord Zentei]

Miko has never been particularly Good, because she's always (remember her response to Shojo's original orders (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html)) been far too willing to stab things in vengeance rather than set things right.

Le snore. :smallsigh: Not this again. I though you and I had covered this already.

[Krellen]

Le snore. :smallsigh: Not this again. I though you and I had covered this already.
Yeah; we agreed that you were wrong and weren't going to admit it, just like Miko. :smallwink:

(And I said "not very Good" this time, not "not Good".)

[Lord Zentei]

Yeah; we agreed that you were wrong and weren't going to admit it, just like Miko. :smallwink:

As if! :smallannoyed:


(And I said "not very Good" this time, not "not Good".)

Hoooray for qualifications!! :smalltongue:

"To save innocents" (note the specific goal) from a burning inn is still pretty damn "good" in my book whether or not it is your job. And she went back in to make sure everyone was out, even if they were already pretty sure of it. That's beyond the call of duty. :smallwink:

And on another note, a gruff, veteran cop may claim to do his job "because it is his job", though that does not mean he is genuinely without charity. Not that this proves anything one way or another, of course. :smallwink:

[Krellen]

As if! :smallannoyed:
I begin to see why you're such a strong supporter. :smallbiggrin:


"To save innocents" (note the specific goal) from a burning inn is still pretty damn "good" in my book whether or not it is your job. And she went back in to make sure everyone was out, even if they were already pretty sure of it. That's beyond the call of duty. :smallwink:
Yeah, she's done enough good to be over the line, I'll admit. But I still think she was barely Good, and Shojo's murder alone was enough to push her to at least Neutral (attacking Hinjo and being completely unhinged and thinking herself better than everyone, I would argue however, puts her over into the realm of Evil now.)

[Lord Zentei]

I begin to see why you're such a strong supporter. :smallbiggrin:

<smite impertenence!!>


Yeah, she's done enough good to be over the line, I'll admit. But I still think she was barely Good, and Shojo's murder alone was enough to push her to at least Neutral (attacking Hinjo and being completely unhinged and thinking herself better than everyone, I would argue however, puts her over into the realm of Evil now.)

Or, it may be that her personality traits that made the good in her harder to appreciate (i.e. pride, stubbornness, uncompromising attitude, low people skills, etc) became the catalyst for her fall when they grew ever stronger.

And agreed on her being evil now (in act if not in scannable alignment), if not simply "looney as a toon". :smallwink:

[berrew]

I continue to point out her first two sentences in OoTS. The amazing irony here is that most of us were fooled, once we saw the "unmasked assassin", into thinking, "That sly Giant, phrasing that opening scene in that way to fool us!" When in actuality, that opening scene was the PERFECT description of Miko's character as fully revealed by the author. Bloodthirsty, unyielding, completely sure of herself and yet completely clueless.

He fooled us twice!

Bravo, Mr. Burlew! Bravo!

p.s.: as a good nerd, I have to say that this reminds me of some of the high points of irony in the Babylon 5 plotline.

[Finwe]

When I first saw 406 I first thought was "well this won't be debated much", my reasoning was that pro Miko groups would be to upset about the fall of their favorite character to respond, but much to my surprise, I see a LOT of people saying "Miko won't change alignment because she only killed ONE non evil person". consider the following example. It will center around a man called Joe who we will assume is LG

Joe is walking along one day, when suddenly Fred walks up to him and asks Joe if he would like to join a organization which he formed which is designed to help the poor get back on their feet. Joe accepts and proceeds over the next few years to help many poor people get back on their feet, and becomes a the third in command of this organization, then one day he is going to a meeting with Fred's second in command, when suddenly they both hear Fred conversing with some people. It sounds a bit like they might be stealing from the poor. They confront Fred and The Second in command says that they will tell the cops about it and have them investigate it in more detail, but this is not good enough for Joe, he gets angry and kills Fred, The Second in command calls the cops, and they put him on trial, Joe's defence. Oh I CAN'T be evil I only murdered ONE person.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE JURY WOULD SAY!!!


Being Evil is not the same thing as commiting a crime, nor is being Good the same thing as being innocent. You can commit a crime and remain Good - even murder. You can also not have committed a crime, and still be Evil. Joe's defense in your analogy is utter crap - whether or not he's evil is irrelevant - he's on trial for murder, not for being evil. If he intended to do good, and retained a desire to do good, he'd still be Good, or perhaps Neutral if he was already on the line. Alignment changes occur from either a conscious choice to change (so long as it is followed by actions) or a continuous line of acts inconsistent with your alignment, not from an exception to how you otherwise act.

[Messenger]

When I first saw 406 I first thought was "well this won't be debated much", my reasoning was that pro Miko groups would be to upset about the fall of their favorite character to respond, but much to my surprise, I see a LOT of people saying "Miko won't change alignment because she only killed ONE non evil person". consider the following example. It will center around a man called Joe who we will assume is LG

Joe is walking along one day, when suddenly Fred walks up to him and asks Joe if he would like to join a organization which he formed which is designed to help the poor get back on their feet. Joe accepts and proceeds over the next few years to help many poor people get back on their feet, and becomes a the third in command of this organization, then one day he is going to a meeting with Fred's second in command, when suddenly they both hear Fred conversing with some people. It sounds a bit like they might be stealing from the poor. They confront Fred and The Second in command says that they will tell the cops about it and have them investigate it in more detail, but this is not good enough for Joe, he gets angry and kills Fred, The Second in command calls the cops, and they put him on trial, Joe's defence. Oh I CAN'T be evil I only murdered ONE person.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE JURY WOULD SAY!!!
Take note: Courts of Law don't judge people- they judge specific acts by people. At the end of trial, Joe is judged guilty of the act of committing murder, not guilty for being evil. :smallconfused:

That said, no way Miko can still be Good after all that she said and did. And no matter how she subjectively twists things to suit her beliefs and emotions, no matter how she believes what she's doing is right, there is absolutely no way to condone her murdering Shojo for something she did not even understand, for blaming others for her own mistakes which she refuses to see, and for attacking and almost killing someone who was offering her a peaceful resolution to the situation. :smallannoyed:

[Messenger]

Actually, I don't belive that Miko would lose her powers. Slicing Shojo, the way she did, was certainly unlawful, but not evil. Allow me to explain, :smallsmile:.

Imagine if Shojo was evil, and all that was true. And if Miko was right all along.
Would it still be evil? Killing an evil ruler is actually a good act.

Miko is, as I see it, simply somewhat insane.

A paladin loses powers by EVIL actions, not unlawful ones (Correct me if wrong).

So Miko did a wrong action, not an evil action.
The catch was that Shojo wasn't Evil to begin with anway, and that Miko executed him without trial or proof- the latter rather tainting whatever good intentions she had.

Furthermore, even if she was merely wrong (honestly, it was just a very bad and extreme judgement call on her part at first), you gotta remember: there are always consequences to anyone's actions and choices. Even if she honestly meant well, she still has to account for what she did. Good intentions don't always mean good deeds.

[akumadaimyo]

I laugh at the person who thinks killing people simply because their alingment is evil is a good act. Um, sorry no it's not. You can't just stab anyone you please cause they "Ding" evil. Yeah I would LOVE to see you go up and kill the legitimate ruler of a country just cause he dinged evil. Unless he's rampaging around killing people like a certain WWII dictator or a recently hung dictator, YOU will be the one summarily exectued. The world AND D&D does not work that way. You also realize there are less evil persons who are still classified as evil, like say the innkeeper who would never kill anyone but who waters down his drinks and spikes prices and does other unfair practices and you think just killing him cause he's evil is a good act? No that sounds way more like a serial killers delusions or just say Miko for short.

[Messenger]

Hi
Miko is nothing but a fanatic she is no different then catholic inquisitors, protestant witch trials, Taliban, Vladimir lenin, mao say tung, the list goes on. She has been skirting the dark side for a wile now. What do that all have in common. Lets start whit the inquisitors. We have torture the heretics because we need to protect them from going to hell which is far worse then anything we could do a few moments of pain to head off an eternity of hell. The protestant witch trials, the one I am most familure with took place in salem mass. I guarantee every one I mentioned above thought of them selves as lawful good. Most people who are evil think they are good. Do you think Hitler thought of him self as evil or that the holocaust was necessary to save germany? He thought of himself as good. Just like miko.

Good and evils depend on what side of the table you are on. If the prosecuted person is innocent then your actions are evil if the person is guilty they your actions are good. Miko acts with out finding out first she acts on assumptions.
Then Hinjo would be Evil also- because he was also ready to prosecute his own Uncle on what he overheard and though was his Uncle's treachery.

The distinction lies in that he was understanding and reasonable- his Goodness was in wanting to know the truth to act on it, not judge immediately on the basis of his (Miko's) (self-)righteousness.


Good and evil are not so easy to deal with. I am a Machiavellian and yes sometimes as a leader you have to do evil things for the greater good. For instance during world war two the English broke the enigma code and could have used the broken code to save lives. Doing so would have tip off the germans that the code is broke causing them come up with a new code. This would have made the war last longer then cost how many hundreds of thousands of lives. Do you save 10 lives or 1,000?
You're not a Machiavellian. Machiavelli's The Prince didn't care about morality at all, or it did only as far as public image was concerned. The minute you actually consider what is right or wrong and work towards that, you're definitely not Machiavellian. You're a Utilitarian (the actual moral philosophy- going for the greatest amount of good for greatest amount of people, like in your Enigma Code example). :smallwink:


Just to finish up I like miko, I think her character brings something to the table and is a good adversary for the order of the sick. From this point going forward I would play her as believing the gods have abandoner her because she was too nice to the unbelievers, she must for the good of every one be far harder on the heretics. Her powers have failed because she went far to easy on evil doers. As the only person who understands this makes anyone who disagrees with her obviously on the side of the evil.
Wow. Cutting Shojo nearly in half and attacking and nearly killing Hinjo was being "too nice"? There's no way her fall can be interpreted that way.

[Messenger]

You think Rorschach is evil? :smallconfused:

He's the only decent hero in the bunch. He has strong, absolutist moral principles that he never compromises. He's not a fallen paladin, he's more like a Vhailor or a Judge Dredd, a LN enforcer with no mercy.
Definitely. Rorschach wasn't evil. He made no compromises with it. And while he broke fingers to get the job done, he was first investigated crimes and ascertained the truth before he acted- which is at least better than Miko judging and killing Shojo in one go.

And at least Rorschach knew he was crazy and an extremist.

[Messenger]

I'm confused. Miko's attitude towards Shojo was described in the comic thread as "Let justice be done, though the heavens fall" - meaning she doesn't care whether Shojo did everything for a reason or whether his death is terribly inopportune, she demands justice (as she sees it) above all other considerations. This is exactly Rorschach's stance at the end of Watchmen; he'll undo everything that happened in the comic in order to satisfy his personal sense of rightness. But you say he is admirable and she is despicable?
Except that it wasn't justice that was done. For that matter, how can you call what Miko did justice when she didn't even let Shojo explain or defend himself, or to get to the truth of the matter before judging him?

And what makes Rorschach admirable is that he knew what Adrian Veidt did, no matter what kind of peace he achieved, was horrific. Miko, until now, has yet to understand that what did was wrong.

[rosebud]

My point is, why she think Shojo is associated with evil beigns? Why she thinks the OOTS is evil? Why she think Shojo plotted to eliminate the Paladins?Insanity and reason need not be connected. I didn't say she had a good reason, I just said that was her belief from her myopic viewpoint.

[Jazzvader]

:miko: completely mad, Crazy, nuts, insane and off her rocker at the same time while pole dancing for :roy:'s enjoyment.

[Lord Zentei]

Except that it wasn't justice that was done. For that matter, how can you call what Miko did justice when she didn't even let Shojo explain or defend himself, or to get to the truth of the matter before judging him?

And what makes Rorschach admirable is that he knew what Adrian Veidt did, no matter what kind of peace he achieved, was horrific. Miko, until now, has yet to understand that what did was wrong.

That's because she is probably off at the deep end. She wasn't always like this: observe how she listened to Durkon after her initial confrontation with the Order of the Stick when the Smite Evil did not work on Roy. But now, with her powers out and out stripped after she attacked Shojo, she doesn't say "that's odd" and listen to reason... welcome to crazy villain land.