Who is more of a psycho: Miko, or Belkar?

[mockingbyrd7]

Miko and Belkar. Who is more insane? You decide!

[Charles Phipps]

Belkar isn't insane.

Oddly, he's perfectly rational about his love of slaughter and murder.

Miko is delusional with anger issues.

[Warpfire]

Belkar isn't insane.

Oddly, he's perfectly rational about his love of slaughter and murder.

Miko is delusional with anger issues.

Quoted for the truth.

[Sage in the Playground]

Tie. hnseiohnvdklzbvjkzbnilhbvlkdhbklcnjbvjbgfjklwfhkbd f

[Jester42]

I think Miko wins the psyco award. Being twisted into doing "evil" deeds and apparently truly believing in her "rightousness". We will see if her palidin class is dictated by her perceptions of good/evil or an external "god" source.

[theKOT]

Belkar isn't insane.

Oddly, he's perfectly rational about his love of slaughter and murder.

Miko is delusional with anger issues.
Belkar is a sociopath, so he is psychotic in a different way. But while he mellows, Miko get worse. Right now I'd have to give the edge to Miko by a bit and growing.

[Winged One]

Miko. Belkar's not insane, he's evil. Miko, on the other hand, suffers from severe Bat **** Crazy, as evidenced by OOTS 406(some of the more extreme Miko-haters would cite more then merely 406, but I'm relatively moderate in my dislike of her).

[Charles Phipps]

At heart, the definition for insanity nowadays INCLUDES evil as a form of insanity. Since people who don't care about others but themselves have a variety of conditions they're said to suffer from.

However, by legal definition, Belkar is a man whom knows the difference between right and wrong yet doesn't care.

[theKOT]

At heart, the definition for insanity nowadays INCLUDES evil as a form of insanity. Since people who don't care about others but themselves have a variety of conditions they're said to suffer from.

However, by legal definition, Belkar is a man whom knows the difference between right and wrong yet doesn't care.
True, but by actual, in-the-dictionary definition, he is sociopathic. I agree with you about blaming "conditions" for behavioral problems though.

[skinkatlarge]

Ah, jeez, once again I answered the thread title instead of the actual poll question or the first post. Belkar revels in being a psycho*, but his grasp of reality is almost certainly more accurate than Miko's. Belkar is more psycho, Miko is more crazy.


*psy·cho·path (sī'kə-pāth')
n. A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.

[Mnemosyne]

Belkar is a sociopath and a sadist. Miko is exhibiting delusional and dangerous behavior, but I don't think she's on his level yet.

Edit: Skinkatlarge has it.

[belboz]

Whether or not insanity is a prerequisite for evil in the real world (and I don't wish to enter that debate on either side), to me it's pretty clear that in D&D they're completely distinct. In D&D, Evil is a real force with real partisans, not a consequence of a "personality disorder."

Given that, I'm adding my voice to the majority:

Belkar--Fairly sane, though rather nasty. Some minor impulse control problems (e.g., torching the bandit tents).
Miko--Totally out of touch with reality.

[Lekkarion]

Belkar isn't insane.

Oddly, he's perfectly rational about his love of slaughter and murder.

Miko is delusional with anger issues.


Belkar is just a slaughterbot, Miko is off her rocker

[TheAnimal]

While :belkar: certainly fits the bill for a sociopath, he at least does his slaughtering and havoc-wreaking with some moderation.

In #406, :miko: just went over the edge - it appears she has paranoid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia) scizophrenia that just developed into a full-blown psychotic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis) episode.
This would make her extremely unpredictable and dangerous.
(She was not the most stable individual to start with, mind you - she killed the bandit leaders for very little provocation and was more than willing to kill the entire OotS on sight, based on really vague -to say the least- evidence.)

[FullPlateJacket]

I would like to point out that Belkar must currently keep his more psycho tendencies moderated due to the Mark of Justice. What would Belkar have done without it? Until we have that answer, this poll is pretty undecidable for me.

[TheAnimal]

^Well, he hasn't actually gone on innocent-townsfolk-killing sprees without the mark before, has he?

[Karellen]

Well, only in the Origin of PCs. =3 But it was really more of an overdone bar fight really, so I don't think we still have hard evidence of Belkar randomly murdering citizens for absolutely no reason other than killing them.

Anyway, Miko is clearly more crazy; her perception of the world and events in it are solidly delusional, which I think is the best definition for madness one can come up with. Belkar, for his part, might see the world through a pair of glasses that defines it in terms of things he can kill and things he can't kill, but at least his perception through that pair of glasses is more or less in sync with the way the world is.

[Green Bean]

^Well, he hasn't actually gone on innocent-townsfolk-killing sprees without the mark before, has he?

True, but he was only ever in one town before getting the Mark. And while he was in that town he stabbed three people to death even though he was not supposed to kill them.

[kerberos]

Belkar is clearly more psychotic. Do not accept any cheap Assian knock-offs (see sig line).

[Albion]

Miko the Psycho(pronouncing it Myko so it can relate to Hannibal the Cannibal... eh), she's more fundamental, goes to greater extremes, Belkar just screws around.

[Setra]

You say Miko seems out of touch with reality, but she seems perfectly rational to me. She killed Shojo and had, from what she could tell, perfectly good reason to do so.

Belkar kills for fun, and thus is more psycho than Miko will ever be.

[The Dirge]

News flash, most 'nutcase' killers believe they are doing the right thing, especially people with schizophrenia (sp?). Belkar knows the difference between good and evil but he doesnt care. At least if he had a knife over you you could bargain with him. He could also get bored with killing and stop after a few years. Miko is far worse because she thinks she is doing the right thing and that any plot she thinks in her head is true, so she will never stop killing in the name of 'Justice'

[Setra]

News flash, most 'nutcase' killers believe they are doing the right thing, especially people with schizophrenia (sp?). Belkar knows the difference between good and evil but he doesnt care. At least if he had a knife over you you could bargain with him. He could also get bored with killing and stop after a few years. Miko is far worse because she thinks she is doing the right thing and that any plot she thinks in her head is true, so she will never stop killing in the name of 'Justice'

She only seems a nutcase to you because you know the whole story, we readers get a third person view of this whole event, so we know more than any other character. We know things that no one else knows, like for instance, the fact Durkon has permission to return home.

Gee why doesn't he? Because he doesn't know. Miko does not know the whole story, and despite the fact that she was wrong, her actions were still perfectly justifiable.

Belkar's actions are not, and last I checked at least Miko doesn't make hats and/or Nacho bowls of peoples heads.

[The Dirge]

Damn I feel like nachos now...Anyway, are you trying to tell me perfectly sane person would stab someone over a theory of which they have absoultely no proof? As for saying that her actions were justafiable even though she was wrong, is it right to kill a man i saw on the strret because i thought he was a peadophile? (sp?)

[Amon Star]

At the moment a would say it's a tie, but While :belkar: is stable in his instability, (I know that's an oxymoron), :miko: has the potential to keep spiralling out of control.


(She was not the most stable individual to start with, mind you - she killed the bandit leaders for very little provocation and was more than willing to kill the entire OotS on sight, based on really vague -to say the least- evidence.)

Though I agree that :miko: has always been somewhat unstable, I have to disagree with everything else that I quoted. She had just freed Samantha and Par, only to be attacked because she politely turned down a job offer. :miko: responded to lethal force with lethal force to two people who's actions were evil. End of discussion.

As for trying to kill the OotS, she only tried to kill Roy, who radiated strong Evil. As a Paladin, that is not unreasonable behaviour.


^Well, he hasn't actually gone on innocent-townsfolk-killing sprees without the mark before, has he?

He wanted to slaughter the Dirt Farmers, but got stopped. The OotS have been limitting his behaviour long before the Mark came along.

[Alfryd]

Strictly speaking, psychopaths aren't insane. They just have no regard for, manipulate, and deceive others. By that criterion, Belkar is more psycho.

But if you mean who is behaving more irrationally at the moment, then it is strictly fair to say that Belkar is pursuing his own warped goals with more logic and consistency than Miko can muster. I have voted accordingly. But please consider modifying the topic title.

[Alex Kidd]

Miko is definately a bigger psycho, Belkar's evil(which is separate from insane) and obsessive. Miko's violent, triggger tempered, in total denial and seemingly breaking down. Seriously that look on her face is not "I bring justice, evil doer", that's "OMG I'll ****ing kill you! ****ING KILL YOU!"



As for trying to kill the OotS, she only tried to kill Roy, who radiated strong Evil. As a Paladin, that is not unreasonable behaviour.


I think he was referring to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html), "My blades will bathe in their blood master", that's like the catchphrase of lawful evil lackeys.:smalltongue:

[Morty]

Belkar all the way. Because Our Psycho is Better than Your Psycho!
And seriously, Belkar isn't complete psychopath, but Miko isn't either. She's just completely revenge-driven.

[The Dirge]

Murderous revenge rampage=insane

[malagigi]

The title asks who is more of a psycho, which goes to Belkar. psychopath: an individual with no superego or conscience; because of this deficit, the person often engages in extensive antisocial behavior.

But which is more insane? Miko. She's not exactly communing with reality at the moment. She is certian that, so long as she is good, and good is never wrong, she can never be wrong.

[OOTS_Rules.]

:belkar: for the Psycho Award! We aren't going to let this. . . this. . . :yuk: paladin take our favorite psycopath's role!!

[sun_tzu]

Belkar isn't insane so much as uncaring and sadistic. In the end, he knows exactly what he's doing and what he is.
Miko is insane. She crafts complex delusions through which she sees the world.

[Zephra]

at least belkar is concistent

[Setra]

Damn I feel like nachos now...Anyway, are you trying to tell me perfectly sane person would stab someone over a theory of which they have absoultely no proof? As for saying that her actions were justafiable even though she was wrong, is it right to kill a man i saw on the strret because i thought he was a peadophile? (sp?)

No proof? She has perfectly good proof, even if it is absolutely wrong.

It would be like killing someone you think is a pedophile, because you have seen him with children naked, taking photos, but in the end he is a doctor.

I'm not saying she was right, I'm saying her reasons were good, even if wrong.

[Megalomaniac2]

Miko. Belkar's psychosis stems from extremely understandable impulses: he is, at heart, pure id, motivated by nothing but base, selfish, and destructive desires. There's no mystery why he feels like harvesting Goblin 101's kidneys; he just feels like it.

Miko, on the other hand, has undergone a truly tortured process of distorting morality and logic to get to where she is today. Just looking into her mind makes me dizzy. She's crazier.

[Setra]

Miko. Belkar's psychosis stems from extremely understandable impulses: he is, at heart, pure id, motivated by nothing but base, selfish, and destructive desires. There's no mystery why he feels like harvesting Goblin 101's kidneys; he just feels like it.

Miko, on the other hand, has undergone a truly tortured process of distorting morality and logic to get to where she is today. Just looking into her mind makes me dizzy. She's crazier.

It's only contorted because we see the OotS as the good guys.

[Ave]

Belkar is quite sane now, thanks for the Mark.
Miko is insane, and was already psycho much earlier, like when the ogres got fireballed.

[Ivius]

Miko. You're much crazier if you see yourself as sane.

[MReav]

(She was not the most stable individual to start with, mind you - she killed the bandit leaders for very little provocation and was more than willing to kill the entire OotS on sight, based on really vague -to say the least- evidence.)

Since when is attacking you with a sword or trying to mind control you
"little provocation"? And her evidence was quite good circumstantial evidence. They and people who look very much like them left a wake of misery and death.

All that being said, Miko is definitely Crazier. Belkar, in his murderous capabilities, is quite rational and coherent.

[El Jaspero, the Pirate King]

Belkar is by far crazier, but he at least admits it instead of hiding behind a self-granted cloak of righteousness and zealotry. That's what's funny about him. He's totally morally bankrupt, but he freely owns up to it.

[Alfryd]

It's only contorted because we see the OotS as the good guys.
On balance, they are good guys. Of course, on balance, so was Miko, but that's gone out the window.

[The Dirge]

No proof? She has perfectly good proof, even if it is absolutely wrong.

It would be like killing someone you think is a pedophile, because you have seen him with children naked, taking photos, but in the end he is a doctor.

I'm not saying she was right, I'm saying her reasons were good, even if wrong.

Her reasons were good!? I dont care if she linked her fake plot with circumstantial evidence in her head, she is still crazy to act on that plan in such a direct manner. And she has the nerve to hide behind being a paldin 'so she has to act good and therefore killing him was a good act'

If a police officer who thought like Miko saw a man leave a bank minutes before it was robbed, then saw him leave another bank minutes before it was robbed, he would shoot that man in the head instead of taking him in for questioning. Odds are it was just a coincidence. But miko is insane because she responds to a plan she contrived in her head and responds with deadly force, without even trying to question Shojo or gather proper evidence.

[Demented]

Belkar is a class act of a psycho.
Miko can try, but ultimately, her INT modifier just isn't high enough.

[Aaluran]

Miko is the hands-down winner here. While Belkar simply enjoys killing things and making party members suffer, Miko lacks any kind of common sense and makes ridiculous conclusions in order to try to justify and immediate (and unlawful in almost every way) execution. She's a complete psycho.

[TreesOfDeath]

Miko's in a deeper fog of dellusion, but in a way it seems even more wrong that Belkar revels in violence, with no pretences and is like the ultimate sadist, and seems proud of it

[The Dirge]

But Belkar knows he is a sadist. Miko doesnt know she is insane and her mind is making grandoise delusions so she thinks she is doing the right thing.

[TreesOfDeath]

Miko wouldn't harvest your kidneys for kicks

[Dudukain]

Miko by a long shot. Look at Belkar in #406. He can't even believe Miko would kill Shojo. Notice Belkar never hurts ANYONE who is not his enemy, and he doesn't make up enemies either. Miko does these things. Belkar kills things, and loves it, but he doesn't randomly murder things. Miko is just out of her ****ing mind.

[TreesOfDeath]

Notice Belkar never hurts ANYONE who is not his enemy, and he doesn't make up enemies either. Miko does these things. Belkar kills things, and loves it, but he doesn't randomly murder things. Miko is just out of her ****ing mind.

Belak wanted to kill those good aligned goblins, seem to have little qualms about killing the dirt farmers, and rember he threw that knife at Roy when he found he had the power to hurt people (when Elan's banjothulu cult fell to pieces).
Ill take the delusional person over the murdering Sadist, though I admit the delusional people can be dangerous when they gather

[Kish]

Notice Belkar never hurts ANYONE who is not his enemy,
So Elan and the novice barbarians in the Barbarians' Guild were Belkar's enemies?

To "notice" what you wish me to notice, I would need to put out my eyes.

[The Dirge]

At least you can bargain with a sadist. Not so with people that think you are evil and must be destroyed.

[Senko]

The trick is Belkar is able to differentiate acceptable killing and unaceptabl killing to refer to the dirt farmers his initial response to the question is lets sweep in and kill them however when he realizes thats not what the others meant he simply shrugs and happily turns his attention to the ogre's instead. Miko on the other hand simply kills with the flimsiest of justification. I direct your attention to the bandits she killed the injured girl for casting a hold person spell and making a general threat considering she was fresh and her opponent badly injured already that seem a little excessive and the father had done nothing but draw his swords and say "You killed my little girl" a fairly reasonable action if you'd just seen a stranger kill a family member at which point she kills him too.

As for Shojo there is a reason there are trials when someone is considered a criminal she's just said alignment doesn't matter your evil if I say you are and I'll kill you for it.

[eilandesq]

Different kinds of crazy. Belkar has general problems with--as V put it a while back--"accepting the right of other sentient creatures to live." That being said, he's not a berserker and is rational enough not to kill when the circumstances would cause it to be a bad idea for him (not exactly a medal of honor, but there it is). Miko has completely lost touch with reality, and just killed the man who has been her leader and mentor her entire life because she believed that he was involved in a massive conspiracy with a lich and the OotS, and ignored the obvious hazards of regicide just before an invasion and the urgings of her fellow paladin--who had just stated that the leader in question would be arrested immediately and effectively removed from power. That's the kind of crazy that bards used to sing about in epic ballads.

[Setra]

Well I have eaten, so now my opinions are radically changed. Now I think they're both insane, and would make a nice couple. Also, I'm insane.

[The Dirge]

Different kinds of crazy. Belkar has general problems with--as V put it a while back--"accepting the right of other sentient creatures to live." That being said, he's not a berserker and is rational enough not to kill when the circumstances would cause it to be a bad idea for him (not exactly a medal of honor, but there it is). Miko has completely lost touch with reality, and just killed the man who has been her leader and mentor her entire life because she believed that he was involved in a massive conspiracy with a lich and the OotS, and ignored the obvious hazards of regicide just before an invasion and the urgings of her fellow paladin--who had just stated that the leader in question would be arrested immediately and effectively removed from power. That's the kind of crazy that bards used to sing about in epic ballads.

I 100% agree with you.

[The_Weirdo]

In terms of PSYCHOPATH, Belkar. He is in touch with reality but is completely driven by his ID.

In terms of INSANE, Miko. She is OUT of touch with realiy and got that way by rationalizing and creating plots in her mind that she DECIDED were true in order to pursue the course of action she WANTED to.

Both are psychopaths in this case, only Miko justifies it to herself by delusions about reality, so, Miko is about as much a psychopath as Belkar, maybe a tad less, but she definetly is more insane. Belkar never once created plots in his mind to justify his actions; he doesn't care to rationalize them, he knows he does what he WANTS. Miko ALSO does what she wants, but hides it under the plots she creates in her mind.

[Skyserpent]

Belkar is amoral.

Miko is nuts.

[Strengfellow]

It's Miko for me.
She is a fanatic and fanatics are by their very nature psycho nut job's.

[Karkadinn]

At this point (previous to the Shojo Slayage I would have had a different opinion) Miko is crazier.
Belkar, however, is more evil.
Comparing the two, Belkar is definitely more honest with himself than Miko, but he's also more intentionally selfish than Miko would ever allow herself to be.
We're not creeped out by Belkar despite his evil deeds because he's a comic/unrealistic figure, and we're creeped out by Miko very easily because she's a tragic/realistic figure.

[The Dirge]

It's Miko for me.
She is a fanatic and fanatics are by their very nature psycho nut job's.

Indeed, good point.

[Megalomaniac2]

It's only contorted because we see the OotS as the good guys.

No, it's only contorted because it disregards all forms of logic and rationality. Like Roy said: "It's like she has that Monk ability that lets you jump as far as you want, only for her, it applies to conclusions." Given the same information she received, very few people would have made the same ridiculous calls Miko has. Let's review a classic Manic Miko Moment:

From #371

Miko: "Wait, did you say 'Xykon'?"

Xykon: "That's me! In the flesh. Except, you know, not."

Miko: "Then the Order of the Stick lied! They did NOT destroy you!"

Xykon: "The who?"

Redcloak: "From the dungeon."

Xykon: "Oh, right, Bluepommel and his buddies. Man, did they leave a mess."

Miko: "Those deceivers! I knew they could not be-" blah blah blah crazy paranoid rant.

Note what Miko does here, and it's really very typical of how her mind has begun to work. Hearing that Xykon, a very powerful lich, is still alive- something that villains of Xykon's caliber do tend to do, what with the phylactery they all carry and all- her IMMEDIATE CONCLUSION is that the Order of the Stick are his minions (see #373). This is despite Xykon saying RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER that Roy and his buddies 'left a mess'. Now, this is not the same as saying 'oh, right, my enemies', but still there are only a number of ways it can be interpreted! Miko acts as though Xykon didn't even say this, leaping to the most unlikely conclusion on a single fact.

Miko didn't start out being this crazy, but by now she makes decisions- frequently drastic ones- independent of reality, and as such she bears little resemblance to a rational, stable individual.

[Setra]

No, it's only contorted because it disregards all forms of logic and rationality. Like Roy said: "It's like she has that Monk ability that lets you jump as far as you want, only for her, it applies to conclusions." Given the same information she received, very few people would have made the same ridiculous calls Miko has. Let's review a classic Manic Miko Moment:

From #371

Miko: "Wait, did you say 'Xykon'?"

Xykon: "That's me! In the flesh. Except, you know, not."

Miko: "Then the Order of the Stick lied! They did NOT destroy you!"

Xykon: "The who?"

Redcloak: "From the dungeon."

Xykon: "Oh, right, Bluepommel and his buddies. Man, did they leave a mess."

Miko: "Those deceivers! I knew they could not be-" blah blah blah crazy paranoid rant.

Note what Miko does here, and it's really very typical of how her mind has begun to work. Hearing that Xykon, a very powerful lich, is still alive- something that villains of Xykon's caliber do tend to do, what with the phylactery they all carry and all- her IMMEDIATE CONCLUSION is that the Order of the Stick are his minions (see #373). This is despite Xykon saying RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER that Roy and his buddies 'left a mess'. Now, this is not the same as saying 'oh, right, my enemies', but still there are only a number of ways it can be interpreted! Miko acts as though Xykon didn't even say this, leaping to the most unlikely conclusion on a single fact.

Miko didn't start out being this crazy, but by now she makes decisions- frequently drastic ones- independent of reality, and as such she bears little resemblance to a rational, stable individual.
The funny thing being, if Miko was the good guy, it wouldn't matter. Still I know I was incorrect when I said that now. I was just tired, or hungry, or both.

Regardless, compared to me both of them are quite sane. If you don't believe me ask my therapist.

[The Dirge]

I am thinking of your earlier comment about someones head as a nacho bowl, and now I have the biggest nacho craving I have ever had.

[Angela Christine]

Well I have eaten, so now my opinions are radically changed. Now I think they're both insane, and would make a nice couple. Also, I'm insane.


What did you eat? Was it a sandwich of opinion changing? Is that a cursed item?

[Hallavast]

Belkar used a kobold's head for a chip bowl... and a hat.

[Demented]

Though he never intended to use them as such.

I consider that one of his low points.

[Kython]

miko has definately snapped; she's judging others without hearing their side, she just killed a defensless old man who was in fact her lawful master (so she's just broken her pally-code and samurai code... not that the latter matters), and has become even more paranoid than ever, even to the point of not trusting her Detect Evil ability anymore.

belkar on the other hand has always been morally bankrupt, so he just doesn't see a problem with killing, etc.

[the_tick_rules]

well miko's just having this one epsiode belkars been that way forever. belkar has revenge planned against miko, her horse, V, and a bunch of others.

[Saithis Bladewing]

Belkar has no morals and is completely aware of when he causes harm to people.

Miko jumps to drastic conclusions and is a general nutjob and doesn't seem to fully realise when and where she causes more harm than is really necessary.

Who do you think is really more psycho?

[Saithis Bladewing]

Belkar has no morals and is completely aware of when he causes harm to people.

Miko jumps to drastic conclusions and is a general nutjob.

Who do you think is really more psycho?

[Setra]

What did you eat? Was it a sandwich of opinion changing? Is that a cursed item?

My opinions change upon a whim, usually after eating or sleeping. I had Lasagna.

[The Dirge]

Dammit I need nachos! Ill be gone for the time it takes to make and consume them!

[Mad_Max]

I think it's safe to say Miko has snapped at this point. Belkar is consistent at least.

[The Dirge]

Better knowing that someone will stab you if you give them a chance than not knowing if someone will stab you if they get a chance.

[Celisasu]

Belkar is by far the most psychotic of the two. Heck, he fits the description perfectly.

On the other hand Miko is the more insane of the two. Belkar at least percieves the world how it really is. He knows full well that what he considers okay is unnacceptable by most people and he revels in it. Miko meanwhile has a very skewed view of reality that doesn't allow for anything outside her worldview to exist in it. While Belkar would love for his beliefs to be the norm, he acknowledges that it isn't so. Miko fails in that regard.

[The Dirge]

Nice avatar Celisasu, I have seen that animation *Ahem* "Ma spoon is too big"

[vbushido]

Belkar has a sociopathic personality disorder (formerly psychopathic); he has problems judging actions by future consequences. Belkar's team can talk him out of killing. He grouses about it but will accept counsel against wanton killing.
Miko is psychotic with paranoid delusions; she has difficulty associating with reality as others see it and generalizes the world is 'out to get her.' Paranoids often see themselves as the focus of all importance and have narrow views on how to deal with situations. Miko ignores Hinjo's suggestion to proceed lawfully (arresting and trying Shojo), because it does not fit her narrow perceptual set of how to deal with problems. And regarding her discussion with Xykon, did she even bother to make a Knowledge: Religion check to remember that liches regenerate? I think not because her mind no longer 'reasons' out situations, it's either "with me or against me." All other details are irrelevant.

Both need counseling and punishment, meted in out in different ways. In the real world, Miko's condition would actually be easier to treat, if she would be willing to accept treatment. Clinical insanity is hard to treat in D&D (Wish, miracle or Greater Restoration sometimes works).

----
I hate tattoos. They make the meat taste all funny.

[Demented]

Belkar has a sociopathic personality disorder (formerly psychopathic); he has problems judging actions by future consequences.

Not at all.
He simply has problems judging future consequences.

Raise dead.
Burning tents.
Getting killed by the party for XP.

If even once the universe sat down and let him get done what he wanted to do, he'd be dead faster than mother Theresa in a hack-n-slash dungeon crawl.

[ElfLad]

Xykon: "Oh, right, Bluepommel and his buddies. Man, did they leave a mess."

Miko: "Those deceivers! I knew they could not be-" blah blah blah crazy paranoid rant.

Note what Miko does here, and it's really very typical of how her mind has begun to work. Hearing that Xykon, a very powerful lich, is still alive- something that villains of Xykon's caliber do tend to do, what with the phylactery they all carry and all- her IMMEDIATE CONCLUSION is that the Order of the Stick are his minions (see #373). This is despite Xykon saying RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER that Roy and his buddies 'left a mess'. Now, this is not the same as saying 'oh, right, my enemies', but still there are only a number of ways it can be interpreted! Miko acts as though Xykon didn't even say this, leaping to the most unlikely conclusion on a single fact.

Miko didn't start out being this crazy, but by now she makes decisions- frequently drastic ones- independent of reality, and as such she bears little resemblance to a rational, stable individual.


Text doesn't include tone. I assume Xykon said it thoughtfully like, "Oh, right, them! They left quite the mess."

If somebody I didn't know talked about people that way, saying "left a mess" without any sense of anger, I'd just assume that they're kind of reminiscing. Not being "THEY ARE MY MORTAL ENEMIES!!!1"

But hey, I'm just being devil's and/or paladin's advocate here.

[The Dirge]

Paladin's advocate? Never heard that one before.

[Strengfellow]

They are a cleric side class and about as common, useful and desired as a talking toilet brush.

[Veedrix]

Honestly, I called Miko going Blackguard from the beginning, and sadly, Belkar has everything to do with it.

You can see in the Miko/Belkar showdown in Belkar escaping that when Roy starts do define the Lawful Good allignment, the unparrellelled anger in Miko for not being able to destroy Belkar, and Roy telling her off as a possible love interest. Two very painfull things to a lonely paladin's self esteem.

She started seeing them all as evil because of them accidentally destroying the first gate. And after that fight, and the Xyklon rant that she jumped to conclusions with, and now her slicing the ever-living crap out of Shojo, her becoming a Blackguard is all there. So long Smite Evil, Hello Sneak Attack/Poison use and Aura of Fear!

This is probably when Belkar drops her, and ends up writhing in pain. Cause a storm is brewing and she is gonna be Smiting good, and only Belkar can live through that.

As for sanity, hers was shattered before anything else. You can see it when she decided to kill the Bandit Father/Daughter combination instead of using Gather Information. For someone who is "lawful good" she is quite Lawful Evil in her manor of doing things, and exacting revenge from her position.

[The Dirge]

She won't go blackguard, its too obvious.

[Amon Star]

I think he was referring to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html), "My blades will bathe in their blood master", that's like the catchphrase of lawful evil lackeys.:smalltongue:

The Giant has explained that one. She believed that Uber-Evil forces were responsible. Paladins are allowed to slaughter them. She's just over-zealous.


Miko on the other hand simply kills with the flimsiest of justification. I direct your attention to the bandits she killed the injured girl for casting a hold person spell and making a general threat considering she was fresh and her opponent badly injured already that seem a little excessive and the father had done nothing but draw his swords and say "You killed my little girl" a fairly reasonable action if you'd just seen a stranger kill a family member at which point she kills him too.

Samantha had just said she was going to kill :miko:. That is NOT a general threat. Samantha then proceeded to use a spell that utterly paralyses someone. If it had succeeded, they could have tortured or killed :miko: at their leisure. Also, the father's only reaction to the spell was don't do it on this particular person, rather than not at all. And all this was after :miko: had showed them kindness by untying them. If that's not justified self defense then nothing is.


As for sanity, hers was shattered before anything else. You can see it when she decided to kill the Bandit Father/Daughter combination instead of using Gather Information. For someone who is "lawful good" she is quite Lawful Evil in her manor of doing things, and exacting revenge from her position.

Her only mistake in that encounter was not using Detect Evil on those two. Instead, she choise to show kindness by untying them and getting the information through ROLEPLAYED INTERACTION, instead of just making the Gather Information check. It was Samantha's fought that :miko: was forced to kill them.

As for :miko:'s sanity. While she has always been a little unstable, it was :belkar: that really set her breakdown in motion.
Which means, if she dies because of these events, :belkar: would have caused her death.

[David94]

I voted Belkar. Miko's not really a psycho, she's just crazy and jumps to unreasonable conclusions. Her conclusions are what causes her to kill if she thinks someone is evil. On the other hand, Belkar has killed many people just because he wants to. Miko CLAIMS to have a good reason. Sometimes she does. Sometimes, it's another unreasonable conclusion. Therefore, Belkar kills for fun, which makes him a psycho. Miko kills for a reason, even if that reason is wrong, which just makes her unreasonable and crazy.

[Tharj TreeSmiter]

Well that's pretty decisive, Miko is PSYCHO!!!

[Justinian]

Sociopath Ranger or pathologically introverted / paranoid Paladin?

Uhm. The correct answer is "Yes."

[Setra]

Sociopath Ranger or pathologically introverted / paranoid Paladin?

Uhm. The correct answer is "Yes."

Or it could perhaps be "No" or even "Pie"

[The Dirge]

Or cheese.

[Glome]

For Belkar to be the kind of Crazy that Miko currently is, he would have to kill Roy while he's unarmed and defenseless, while knowing that doing so would activate his rune and make him sick, all because he came to the conclusion that he must be in league with the LG since he should have known that they would have escaped prison.

From the actions in the last couple of the strips, Miko has entered her own world of crazy far away from the rationality that Belkar has shown throughout his time with the OOTS.

[The Dirge]

Nice paralell Glome.

[Professor Tanhauser]

I'd say miko is less sane than belkar. Belkar doesn't delune himself into believing he's virtuous and all that, he does what be does because it gets him off. Miko gets off on it too, but tells herself she does it due to righteous motives, thereby engaging in self delusion.

[Talya]

Belkar. Miko is a zealot. Belkar's a psychotic. The differences are subtle, but the zealot is more predictable and consistant. Belkar's a freak.

[Setra]

Okay I have to know.. how could ANYONE vote that BOTH are Sane?

[AK-00]

Okay I have to know.. how could ANYONE vote that BOTH are Sane?

(Shrugs)
Miko is violent and strongly principled, and acts accordingly. Belkar is violent and utterly unprincipled, and likewise acts accordingly. I don't see any evidence that either of them are mentally ill.

[Setra]

(Shrugs)
Miko is violent and strongly principled, and acts accordingly. Belkar is violent and utterly unprincipled, and likewise acts accordingly. I don't see any evidence that either of them are mentally ill.

How come murderers get to be sane, but I get branded insane by society. Stupid society.


I guess it depends on whether or not you believe killing someone can be a reasonable course of action. If you do, it's just a question of degree. Miko kills because she perceives it to be for the greater good. Belkar kills because it's fun and convenient. They both kill as a means to a rational end.
Oh I know why I'm branded as insane, I've nearly killed people in fits of rage. Thus, in recent years I actively seek to avoid conflict.

I suppose this is why I can be somewhat sympathetic of Miko.

[AK-00]

How come murderers get to be sane, but I get branded insane by society. Stupid society.

I guess it depends on whether or not you believe killing someone can be a reasonable course of action. If you do, it's just a question of degree. Miko kills because she perceives it to be for the greater good. Belkar kills because it's fun and convenient. They both kill as a means to a rational end.

[Finwe]

Sanity isn't a good or evil trait - its a quality that people can have just like height or intelligence. That's why you can be evil and sane, or good an insane.

[Jannex]

Belkar is a sociopath, but he has a reasonably solid grip on reality. He may want to stab reality and wear its skull as a hat, but at least he can identify it accurately when he sees it.

Miko, by contrast, is quite guanophrenic. She is delusional, and violently so. She and reality aren't on speaking terms. What she perceives and what actually goes on around her are profoundly and dramatically different.

Belkar is more "psycho" (in the sense of psychopathic), but Miko is more "insane."

[AK-00]

Sanity isn't a good or evil trait - its a quality that people can have just like height or intelligence. That's why you can be evil and sane, or good an insane.

I don't know that it's even a trait. All sanity seems to reflect is how in keeping with perceived societal norms a persons behaviour is. Hell, homosexuality was considered a form of insanity, once.

[Golt]

Belkar is the psycho. He is a sociopath, he kills for fun and makes himself a cap from skull of the freshly deceased. And telling that such behavior doesn't make him a sociopath because he's evil is silly to say the least. Miko is extremely delusional and angry, but not a psycho.

[DomaDoma]

I'm as disillusioned with Miko as anyone, but she doesn't come close to Belkar for psycho.

If you said delusional, Miko would naturally win.

Who's crazier? Heck if I know.

[Angela Christine]

The short form "psycho" makes the question unnecessarily difficult, because psycho can be short for both "psychotic" and "psychopathic". Belkar is probably more psychopathic, but Miko is likely more psychotic.

[The Dirge]

Are you insane if you have no qualms killing people that really piss you off?

BTW nice new avatar setra

[Tiran]

Belkar's a socio path, Miko's delusional and more unbalanced. She won't listen to reason. Belkar simply doesn't care. They're both crazy in completely different ways. I'd say its a tie.

[Amon Star]

Are you insane if you have no qualms killing people that really piss you off?

Probably, but they keep changing the definitions of insanity.

[Setra]

Probably, but they keep changing the definitions of insanity.
Well I for one think Miko is schizo

And Belkar is something.. maybe Bi-polar among other things.


Are you insane if you have no qualms killing people that really piss you off?

BTW nice new avatar setra
Yes, yes you are, that is why in our society I am considered to be insane.

Also, thanks, I really like it.

Guess im off to the asylum.

Tell the Joker I said hi!

[The Dirge]

Probably, but they keep changing the definitions of insanity.

Guess im off to the asylum.

[Ral]

What a great topic. I can finally make use of all those years studying behavioural neuroscience!

And now for your regularly scheduled public service announcement:
*Psychotics, Psychopaths, and You!*


As noted elsewhere, are we using "psycho" to mean psychotic, or psychopathic? Miko is psychotic, Belkar is psychopathic. But both are textbook cases!

Belkar appears to be a classic "psychopath," suffering from (er, enjoying?) an acute case of antisocial personality disorder. He exhibits every single defining characteristic of psychopathy, including a perfect command of his rational faculties, strong tendencies toward violence, total disregard for social norms, complete absence of conscience, socially manipulative behaviour ... even his views towards sex are in line with psychopathy!

Miko displays symptoms of paranoid and/or disorganized schizophrenia, which is a "psychosis." So far, we've seen paranoid delusions, failures of insight, lack of executive cognition (especially a lack of flexible cognition and appropriate impulse inhibitions), and a general dissociation from reality that is typical of schizophrenia. I wonder if we'll start to see outright hallucinations or cognitive failures as she goes on?

As for which version of "psycho" ...

In society, the term "psycho killler" is usually used to denote murderers who suffer from schizophrenia, dissociative identity disorder, or bipolar disorder, and are thus "psychotic."

And in the poll question, the notion of being "psycho" is contrasted with being sane. The concept of sanity/insanity is used in legal processes to determine if one is capable of rational thought and therefore culpable for their decisions, and this is only in question if the person is clinically diagnosed with schizophrenia or similar mental disorder -- i.e., "psychotic."

Thus, the question is which character is more psychotic, and the answer is obviously Miko. Belkar isn't psychotic at all ... though his psychopathic nature may be part of what has caused Miko to become a full-blown psychotic. And to take it a step further, Belkar's psychopathy actually motivated him to actively cause Miko's psychosis.

In short, Miko's psychosis has been Belkar's psychopathic mission in life (psychopathic manipulation in action)!

Edit: Confusing enough for you? :)

[Duke of URL]

Belkar. That's why we love him so much. And I'll harvest the pancreas of anyone who says otherwise.

[The Dirge]

Tell the Joker I said hi!


Can do, I will aslo try to steal the Riddler's clothes. (they look cool)

[Demented]

Edit: Confusing enough for you? :)

Not nearly! You spent too many words defining the terms you intended to use, and too few words using those terms in ways that a typical reader would find difficult to understand! :smalltongue:

[Ral]

Not nearly! You spent too many words defining the terms you intended to use, and too few words using those terms in ways that a typical reader would find difficult to understand! :smalltongue:


Thanks ... I must be getting oddly lucid in my old age! :smallwink:

[Nix307]

Belkar isn't insane.

Oddly, he's perfectly rational about his love of slaughter and murder.

Miko is delusional with anger issues.
to true i compleatly agree

[Piedmon_Sama]

psy·cho·path (sī'kə-pāth') Pronunciation Key (http://cache.lexico.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 FPsychopath) http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif
n. A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.

Huh. Looks like they both match the description pretty well.

[Amon Star]

Well I for one think Miko is schizo

And Belkar is something.. maybe Bi-polar among other things.

:belkar: does not come across as Bi-polar to me. The only time we've seen him depressed is when Crushing Despair was cast on him. Also, his normal state of mind isn't consistent with the Manic cycle of being Bi-polar.


Guess im off to the asylum.

As I said, the legal definition keeps getting changed.

[The Dirge]

[QUOTE=Amon Star;1934390
As I said, the legal definition keeps getting changed.[/QUOTE]

Can I call it a Madhouse? Loony bin? Warehouse of the criminaly insane?

[Amon Star]

Can I call it a Madhouse? Loony bin? Warehouse of the criminaly insane?

If you want. What I ment, though, was that the legal definition of insanity keeps getting changed.

[Matrix Dragon]

They're both psycho, but in different ways.

Belkar is a evil killer, but not only is he honest about it, there are people that can keep him in line.

Miko is a dangerous deluded killer with a clear image of right and wrong, but she refuses to admit it and answers to no one.

[The Dirge]

Yes but the argument here is who is worse. I reckon Miko because a delusional fanatic is much worse than a sociopath.

[The Hammer of Thor]

Miko is more of a pshyco: the last few battles she's launched herself into have been complete failures, and the last thing she killed was an unarmed OAP, but she still thinks she can fight away without any sense of her own secruity. More like a barbarian. What a fool.

Whereas Belkar just kills and gets away with it. Dude. :belkar:

[Adeptus]

Miko, by a mile!

[Angela Christine]

I think Miko is officially very, very crazy right now. :smallbiggrin:

She wasn't doing well before. A long trip, an encounter with an evil lich, failing to stop the lich or the bearer of the crimson mantle, getting seriously knocked on her ass by the CitD, everything she has sworn to protect imperilled, 3-4 days of travel at her top possible speed (most likely deprived of sleep and proper nutrition along the way) and then hearing that her liege had been lying to her for years . . . Miko was in a bad way when she killed Shojo. But then things got worse.


I think killing Shojo broke her. Even if she had been right about everything, and they quickly found evidence that he had invited the hobgoblins and planned to give Xykon the Key to the City, I think having killed him would have hurt her. In her kind of honor bound feudal society, regicide is right up there being a child molester in terms of the repulsiveness and horror of the act. Even if it had been justified, in the long run it would be a horrible thing to live with. But she wasn't justified. Her gods went out of their way to let her know that what she did the wrong thing. She killed her liege lord, and she was wrong. She murdered her lord. That would be much worse for her than a President, Prime Minister or Monarch in a modern western culture. It's like killing your President, your Priest and your Mom all rolled into one. It's a bottomless pit of personal horror and dishonor.


Before she killed Shojo she might have been stabilized with nothing more serious than a good meal, a good night's sleep, and a few hours of meditation. Right now, I don't know if anything short of a sudden case of amnesia can stabilize her. She needs to think things through and understand what has gone wrong, but that would involve thinking about Shojo, and she simply can not bear to think about that. She needs to think about Shojo, she can't think about Shojo, she needs to think about Shojo, she can't think about Shojo, and so on, forever. She can't think about Shojo, and she can't not think about Shojo, so basically she can't think at all. That inner conflict is draining all her mental energy, and nothing is left for rational thought. So she's left spouting nonsense, and stuck in a fight or flight frame of mind, because to calm down is to have to think about what she has done. As long as she keeps running and fighting, she doesn't have to think at all.

I don't know if I'd count her actions since killing Shojo toward her alignment permanently, because I'm not sure that she has any more sentience or awareness than an injured animal at this point. She's in survival mode and isn't thinking or reasoning at all.

She didn't kill Shojo because she's crazy, she's crazy because she killed Shojo.

[The Dirge]

I think she killed Shojo because she is crazy.

[Draigo]

belkars not insane, he's evil.
miko on the other hand, coo-coo, coo-coo

[The Dirge]

Yeah I totally agree. I hate it when people classify Evil as insane.