Dragonborn of Bahamut: The Mechanics of Rebirth

[Darrin]

I am puzzling over this sentence on page 10 of Races of the Dragon:



If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have.


Let's say I have a Human Ranger 1 that takes Power Attack as his human bonus feat, Improved Bull Rush as his 1st level feat, and Track as a Ranger class feature. I scrape up 100 GP for the ritual, and apply the changes as specified in RotD.

Does the sentence above mean that, since Power Attack is a prereq for IBR, I can "lose" Track as my "racial" bonus feat?

[Diarmuid]

Being Human isnt what gave you the ability to Track, being a Ranger did.

You would not be able to lose Track.

[Darrin]

Being Human isnt what gave you the ability to Track, being a Ranger did.

You would not be able to lose Track.

That would be Rules As Intended/Interpreted (RAI). I'm asking about Rules As Written (RAW). When the text says "any feat can be lost", it doesn't specify or seem to care much about how the feat was gained, all it wants is a feat that isn't currently a prereq for anything.

Another example: Human Ranger 6, I take Power Attack at 1st as a Human bonus feat, Improved Bull Rush at 3rd, Shock Trooper at 6th. If we ignore the feats granted via class features, by my reading of the text, I can lose Shock Trooper instead of Power Attack.

[Alent]

That would be Rules As Intended/Interpreted (RAI). I'm asking about Rules As Written (RAW). When the text says "any feat can be lost", it doesn't specify or seem to care much about how the feat was gained, all it wants is a feat that isn't currently a prereq for anything.

Does it say somewhere that Track is a feat? I was under the impression it was a class feature, and that those two were not the same thing.

[Seerow]

Does it say somewhere that Track is a feat? I was under the impression it was a class feature, and that those two were not the same thing.

The class feature explicitly grants the Track feat as a bonus feat. So yeah, it should qualify.

[Chronos]

The rules are quite clear: You can lose any feat you currently have. It nowhere says that it has to be the feat you actually took as your bonus feat, and in fact in some cases requires that it not be (if the bonus feat served as a prerequisite for some other feat).

[Darrin]

The rules are quite clear:


Well, I wouldn't go THAT far, but in a "Strict RAW" or "Loose RAW" game, this means Dragonborn of Bahumat is a viable option for Humans, Azurin, and Strongheart Halflings.

Examples:

Archivist 1: Scribe Scroll
Artificer 1/2: Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion
Barbarian 1: Toughness/Improved Grapple/Great Fortitude (Bear Totem), Blind-Fight (Dragon Totem), Run (Lion Totem), Roofwalker (Cityscape ACF)
Barbarian 2: Improved Trip (Wolf Totem), Rapid Shot (Simple Barbarian ACF)
Barbarian 5: Wasteland Bonus Feat (Sandstorm ACF)
Bard 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bola Flail (Ghostwalk)
Bard 3: swap Inspire Competence for Soothe the Beast (ECS Music of Creation)
Beguiler 5: Silent Spell
Cleric 1: Various domains grant bonus feats, or go Cloistered and three Devotion feats to choose from.
Divine Mind 1: Wild Talent (yeah, very iffy)
Duskblade 2: Combat Casting
Dragonfire Adept 1: Dragontouched
Dragon Shaman 2: Skill Focus
Druid 1: Track (Simple Druid variant, Unearthed Arcana)
Druid 2: Sandskimmer (Sandstorm variant)
Druid 4: Heat Endurance (Sandstorm variant)
Druid 4: Strong Stomach ACF (Cityscape WE)
Favored Soul 3: Weapon Focus
Fighter 1: Exotic Shield Proficiency (Races of Stone variant rule)
Healer 2: Skill Focus
Hexblade 4: bonus feat
Knight 2: Mounted Combat
Marshall 1: Skill Focus
Monk 1/2: Yeah, let me know when that Stunning Fist thing ever actually works.
Paladin 1: Track (Noble Heart Substitution Level, Champions of Valor)
Paladin 4/8/11/14: Bonus Feat (Complete Champion, Holy Warrior ACF)
Psion 1: Bonus Feat
Psychic Warrior 1/2: Bonus Feat.
Ranger 1: Track
Ranger 3: Endurance
Ranger 4/8/11/14: Bonus Feat (Complete Champion, Champion of the Wild ACF)
Rogue 1/2: Fighter Bonus Feat variant (Unearthed Arcana)
Samurai 1: EWP Bastard Sword
Soulknife 1: Weapon Focus, Wild Talent
Sorcerer 1: Draconic Heritage (RotD sub level) or MWP/Weapon Focus (Stalwart Sorcerer ACF)
Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse
Warblade 5: bonus feat
Warmage 7: Sudden Empower
Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll
Wu Jen 1: bonus feat

Also: Otyugh Hole (and other feats from Legendary sites), or Least Legacy feats can be "bought".

Another idea for Druids/Rangers/Simple Bards/Simple Wizards: swap your Animal Companion for an Urban Companion (Cityscape Web Enhancement), then swap that for the Dragonblood Sorcererer ACF: Draconic Heritage.

Hmm. I think that's most of them.

Even if you're not trying to abuse a poorly-worded rule, there's another option in Dragonborn of Bahumat to swap one of your existing feats for either Dragon Tail or Dragon Wings. All of these class-feature feats would work for that as well.

[BowStreetRunner]

When undergoing the rite of rebirth, if your previous race granted you a specific feat (such as Heat Endurance granted an Asherati) then you must lose that specific feat. If your previous race granted you a non-specific feat (such as the bonus feat granted to a human), then you may lose any non-specific feat that is not a prerequisite for another feat you have. However, you could not lose another specific feat, such as the Track feat granted by the Ranger class, since that would create an illegal build (where your Track class feature was providing a different bonus feat).

It doesn't matter how poorly they worded the rite of rebirth instructions. Nowhere does it say you can override the specific rules of another class feature and change it to grant a different feat.

[Chronos]

You're reading something that isn't there. It doesn't say you lose a "nonspecific feat", whatever that is. It says you lose "any feat". Any means any.

And this is hardly broken, since even with this, humans are still one of the worse choices mechanically for becoming dragonborn.

[eggynack]

You're reading something that isn't there. It doesn't say you lose a "nonspecific feat", whatever that is. It says you lose "any feat". Any means any.
Indeed so. Also, I'd add VoP to the list of things that grant crap-feats to be traded away for dragonborn. Also, maybe feat granting locations.

[Rejusu]

When undergoing the rite of rebirth, if your previous race granted you a specific feat (such as Heat Endurance granted an Asherati) then you must lose that specific feat. If your previous race granted you a non-specific feat (such as the bonus feat granted to a human), then you may lose any non-specific feat that is not a prerequisite for another feat you have. However, you could not lose another specific feat, such as the Track feat granted by the Ranger class, since that would create an illegal build (where your Track class feature was providing a different bonus feat).

It doesn't matter how poorly they worded the rite of rebirth instructions. Nowhere does it say you can override the specific rules of another class feature and change it to grant a different feat.

Except y'know the rules for every ACF ever. And what you're quoting is your own interpretation, not the RAW. It says you may lose "any feat" it does not say "any non-specific feat". The non specific qualification only refers to the feat granted by your race, not the one you are losing. In short if your race grants a specific feat you must lose that, if it grants a non specific feat you can lose any feat in place of it. There are no restrictions on the source of the feat you are losing, the only restriction is it cannot be a prerequisite for anything else.

And it would not create an illegal build. A class level grants you class features. Once you have them it is perfectly legal to discard them in one way or another. The "Track" class feature merely grants you a specific bonus feat. Once you gain it however it's no different than any of your other feats. It's like fighter bonus feats, only without the choice.

The only time losing or changing a class feature would create an illegal build is if it served as a prerequisite for something else. Which would mean you couldn't select it as a feat to lose because of the restriction on losing prerequisites.

[Dr. Azkur]

Bahamut*

(I really don't mean to be annoying or anything)

[jedipilot24]

I am puzzling over this sentence on page 10 of Races of the Dragon:



Let's say I have a Human Ranger 1 that takes Power Attack as his human bonus feat, Improved Bull Rush as his 1st level feat, and Track as a Ranger class feature. I scrape up 100 GP for the ritual, and apply the changes as specified in RotD.

Does the sentence above mean that, since Power Attack is a prereq for IBR, I can "lose" Track as my "racial" bonus feat?

The solution is obvious.
Take Power Attack as your 1st level feat and Improved Bull Rush as your bonus feat; then when you become Dragonborn, you lose Improved Bull Rush.
Problem solved.

[Darrin]

The solution is obvious.
Take Power Attack as your 1st level feat and Improved Bull Rush as your bonus feat; then when you become Dragonborn, you lose Improved Bull Rush.
Problem solved.

That may have been the intention of the designers, but the text is not that obvious. If I'm sitting at Ranger 3, I've got three feats that aren't being used as prereqs: Improved Bull Rush, Track, and Endurance (four, actually, if you count TWF). Text says I can get rid of any of those, and I'm going to ditch whichever one I think isn't pulling its weight (most likely Endurance, as I probably would have already swapped Track for Trapfinding by now, and I can get the same effect by paying 500 GP for the Restful armor property).

Even if you're not using this with a Human/Azurin/Strongheart Halfling, that list of feats granted via class features is still useful if you want to swap in Dragon Tail or Dragon Wings.

[Rejusu]

If I'm sitting at Ranger 3, I've got three feats that aren't being used as prereqs: Improved Bull Rush, Track, and Endurance (four, actually, if you count TWF).

You can't count TWF, unlike Track the combat style doesn't grant you a feat, you are merely treated as having it. It's a subtle difference but it disqualifies it from being eligible for ditching.

[Darrin]

You can't count TWF, unlike Track the combat style doesn't grant you a feat, you are merely treated as having it. It's a subtle difference but it disqualifies it from being eligible for ditching.

Good point. I know 3.5 got rid of the "virtual feat" language, but it's still "treated as" a feat under certain conditions, rather than gained as a bonus feat such as Endurance.