Swift Hunter

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys. (Why do I always say that at the beginning of my posts?) I was wondering, of the two, between swift hunter ranger, or straight scout (probably starting on a level 1 campaign) Which is superior? The two weapon fighting+skirmish is appealing, but I'm also toying with mounted, sword and board or greatsword variants of scout. Is it worth taking the levels in swift hunter? Or is it better to do one of the builds I pointed out above and going all scout?

[Talionis]

You can get a lot from straight Scout with a level of rogue getting into Swift Ambusher feat. It usually only takes a level dip and you'll be primarily Scout either way.

[hymer]

Swift hunter helps bypass immunities to skirmish damage. Therefore it is generally superior.

[Nihilarian]

Swift Hunter is superior. Even if you only take, say, 4 levels in ranger, the Swift Hunter feat allows him to bypass immunity to precision damage.

IIRC, the errata made it so that scouts couldn't be mounted to get skirmish damage. There was a Dragon Magazine variant, but I don't think it explicitly stated you could skirmish while mounted. Talk to your DM first.

[Teapot Salty]

You can get a lot from straight Scout with a level of rogue getting into Swift Ambusher feat. It usually only takes a level dip and you'll be primarily Scout either way. Awesome. Imagine if you take swift ambusher, a couple monk levels, and do a moving flurry of blows from behind. Lots of damage. That aside, what do you think would be the easiest way to incorporate some sort of duel wielding to maximize damage? The feat or take some monk levels and flurry?

[Teapot Salty]

Swift Hunter is superior. Even if you only take, say, 4 levels in ranger, the Swift Hunter feat allows him to bypass immunity to precision damage.
Where does it say it bypasses precision damage? I don't remember reading it. Could have just missed it though.


IIRC, the errata made it so that scouts couldn't be mounted to get skirmish damage. There was a Dragon Magazine variant, but I don't think it explicitly stated you could skirmish while mounted. Talk to your DM first. Aw man, I thought that was a cool idea but, meh, I'll talk to my dm, can you duel wield well mounted?

[Nightraiderx]

Technically you don't need any ranger levels to grab swift hunter. There is a feat called Foe Hunter, although it is regional but it grants you a favored enemy based on what region and race you are from.

Also, Travel Devotion feat for swift action move actions.
You can probably grab a nightstick so you can do it more than once a day.
And you can take travel devotion multiple times.

[Darrin]

Which is superior?


Swift Hunter Archer (Scout 4/Ranger 16) is probably superior, although it's somewhat equipment/item dependent (Hank's Energy Bow, Splitting enhancement, etc.).

Swift Hunter TWF is still probably better than Scout 20, mostly due to Ranger spells, although BAB is better, Fort save is a bit better, and you can apply precision damage to enemies that would normally be immune.

Scout 20 is still a decent playable build, but Wilderness Rogue 20 is probably a slightly better deal, as there are a lot more different ways to qualify for Sneak Attack or to circumvent its limitations.



Which is superior?
The two weapon fighting+skirmish is appealing, but I'm also toying with mounted, sword and board or greatsword variants of scout. Is it worth taking the levels in swift hunter? Or is it better to do one of the builds I pointed out above and going all scout?

You will probably need a couple house rule tweaks to make mounted combat functional, but even when it's functional, it won't work well with Skirmish or TWF. It can work well with ranged/archery builds, but still won't work with Skirmish (moving on a mount doesn't count).

Sword & Board is a tough slog, although if you want to do some TWF with offhand shield bashes, that might work with a Fighter dip to get some bonus feats.

Greatsword + armor spikes (or unarmed strikes) works well with TWF. See my TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585) for more ideas.

[Lanaya]

Where does it say it bypasses precision damage? I don't remember reading it. Could have just missed it though.

"In addition, your skirmish extra damage applies against any creature you have selected as a favored enemy, even if it is normally immune to extra damage from critical hits or skirmish attacks." Last part of the feat.

[Rebel7284]

Where does it say it bypasses precision damage? I don't remember reading it. Could have just missed it though.


You can apply skirmish to your favorite enemies even if they would be otherwise immune. Make sure you hate things that are normally immune and thus you can skirmish almost everything.



Aw man, I thought that was a cool idea but, meh, I'll talk to my dm, can you duel wield well mounted?

Duel:
a contest with deadly weapons arranged between two people in order to settle a point of honor.

Dual:
consisting of two parts, elements, or aspects.

I keep seeing the same mistake in spelling over and over....

Anyway, you can use two weapons while mounted, but as I recall, you may not full attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet, therefore it's usually not the best approach.

[Teapot Salty]

"In addition, your skirmish extra damage applies against any creature you have selected as a favored enemy, even if it is normally immune to extra damage from critical hits or skirmish attacks." Last part of the feat.
Oh, now that you mention it I think I did read it somewhere, I always forget about favored enemy, it's so situational that it's rarely worth considering.

[Teapot Salty]

Anyway, you can use two weapons while mounted, but as I recall, you may not full attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet, therefore it's usually not the best approach.
Aw, thanks

[Chronos]

Undead is usually a pretty good choice for a favored enemy anyway, since they're something that you're probably going to see a decent amount of at any level.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You can usually tell which class/build in 3.5 is better by looking at which gets more spells. A Scout 20 gets skirmish, skills, and not all that much else. A Scout 3/Ranger 17 gets just as much skirmish, almost as many skills, and spells. Plus a better chassis and much better splatbook support.

[Teapot Salty]

You can usually tell which class/build in 3.5 is better by looking at which gets more spells. A Scout 20 gets skirmish, skills, and not all that much else. A Scout 3/Ranger 17 gets just as much skirmish, almost as many skills, and spells. Plus a better chassis and much better splatbook support.

And there we have it folks, the giant man has convinced me what to do. Thanks.

[Gwendol]

I hope you go for archery over TWF?

[Darkweave31]

Depends on your view of superior...
The swift hunter feat has two sides. It can be used to focus on scout levels or ranger levels.

Focused scout tends to be more of a skillful character and gets stealth abilities like hide in plain sight and camouflage sooner

Swift hunter with focus on the ranger side tends to have more combat ability (Good BAB, bonus feats) while still getting tons of skill points.

Personally I love swift hunter with ranger focus.

Be careful with a mounted build because errata made skirmish no longer work while mounted. That said, I think that it should work and would certainly allow it to in my game. It just makes sense. Ask your DM.

Speaking of mounts/companions... Take a look at the wild cohort (online) feat as a means to get an animal companion generally better in combat than a ranger's. There's also Urban companion alternate class feature (also online) for a more intelligent, skillful companion. You can even take both if you want.

Two weapon fighting is tough for a scout because you need to move to get skirmish and full-attack to benefit from two weapons (not to mention feat tax). This is pretty-much a problem for any scout. The barbarian lion spiritual totem alternate class feature (complete champion) gives you pounce for charging and full-attacking for only 1 level. If you do take this level also look at the whirling frenzy acf (unearthed arcana;SRD). The Travel Devotion feat (complete champion) is another option.

By now I've probably been ninja'd by half the forum, oh well.

[Sketchopotamus]

Swift Hunter is superior. Not only could you set your favored enemies to creatures that usually can't recieve skirmish damage and now you CAN get skirmish damage. If you continue going ranger over scout, you'll get spells, full(ish) base attack, and the option to go Two Weapon Fighting.

Forget the greatsword, and do a Longsword and a shortsword (or a longsword/longsword with Oversized TWF), go the two weapon fighter ranger combat style and then get the feat Travel Devotion. Now you're talking about a good build. This is what I would suggest.

3 Scout(To start)/1 Cleric/16 Ranger.

Feats:Travel Devotion, Improved Skirmish, Extra turning and anything else you want.

You'll be able to travel your full speed as a swift action, then get FULL attacks with your TWF chain, ALL of your attacks having skirmish damage added onto that.

[Nihilarian]

Arcane spellcastera (via Complete Mage acf), constructs, undead and elementals tend to be good choices for Favored Enemies. If you know the DM and have a good idea of which he prefers, I'd take that as my 5th level FE.

Also ask your DM about the Light Cavalry Scout (Dragon magazine 346). If you can get it, and the DM let's you skirmish while mounted, do so.

[Teapot Salty]

I hope you go for archery over TWF?

I don't think I ever could, I just plain like melee better.

[Teapot Salty]

Swift Hunter is superior. Not only could you set your favored enemies to creatures that usually can't recieve skirmish damage and now you CAN get skirmish damage. If you continue going ranger over scout, you'll get spells, full(ish) base attack, and the option to go Two Weapon Fighting.

Forget the greatsword, and do a Longsword and a shortsword (or a longsword/longsword with Oversized TWF), go the two weapon fighter ranger combat style and then get the feat Travel Devotion. Now you're talking about a good build. This is what I would suggest.

3 Scout(To start)/1 Cleric/16 Ranger.

Feats:Travel Devotion, Improved Skirmish, Extra turning and anything else you want.

You'll be able to travel your full speed as a swift action, then get FULL attacks with your TWF chain, ALL of your attacks having skirmish damage added onto that.
dude, dude, I only hope my dm will allow that. Cause that is scurry.

[Sketchopotamus]

Yeah, it's loads of fun

[Rebel7284]

3 Scout(To start)/1 Cleric/16 Ranger.


Before doing this, you should probably confirm that the DM has abandoned the use of multiclass penalties. Many have, but not all.

Also, cloistered cleric is probably better than plain cleric due to a free Knowledge Devotion feat and more skills in exchange for 1 HP.

Also, you can get Extra Turning from the Undeath Domain. Alternatively, there are a bunch of other powerful domain granted abilities and domain feats.

[Big Fau]

You can usually tell which class/build in 3.5 is better by looking at which gets more spells. A Scout 20 gets skirmish, skills, and not all that much else. A Scout 3/Ranger 17 gets just as much skirmish, almost as many skills, and spells. Plus a better chassis and much better splatbook support.

I'd consider going either Scout 4/Ranger 16 or Scout 3/Cleric 1/Ranger 16 (for Travel/Knowledge Devotions).

[Teapot Salty]

Yeah, it's loads of fun
Although, why the extra turning? It doesnt strike me as necessary to the build.

[Sketchopotamus]

Although, why the extra turning? It doesnt strike me as necessary to the build.

Travel Devotion allows you to make your movement speed into a swift action for 1 minute. It allows you to expend turn or rebuke undeads to gain this feat again for another minute if you so choose. It just gives you more times per day that you can use Travel Devotion.

[Teapot Salty]

Travel Devotion allows you to make your movement speed into a swift action for 1 minute. It allows you to expend turn or rebuke undeads to gain this feat again for another minute if you so choose. It just gives you more times per day that you can use Travel Devotion.

ah I see, (lengthening so i can post this)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Travel Devotion allows you to make your movement speed into a swift action for 1 minute. It allows you to expend turn or rebuke undeads to gain this feat again for another minute if you so choose. It just gives you more times per day that you can use Travel Devotion.
Though you probably don't need this-- the cleric dip will get you two uses minimum, and a third use if you've got a Cha mod of at least +1. Each use will last you a full fight.

[Sketchopotamus]

Though you probably don't need this-- the cleric dip will get you two uses minimum, and a third use if you've got a Cha mod of at least +1. Each use will last you a full fight.

Yeah, it's not ENTIRELY necessary. But if your dm enjoys lengthy fights, and a lot of fighting. It could be useful. Entirely up to you however.

[Teapot Salty]

Yeah, it's not ENTIRELY necessary. But if your dm enjoys lengthy fights, and a lot of fighting. It could be useful. Entirely up to you however.

Ya, the only problem with the build is that my dm runs by the logic of "in a game of cops and robbers, no one wants to play with superman" so he might not allow it. And I plan to do a more hit and run sort of build, maybe take a dip into rogue or barbarian as opposed to cleric.

[Rebel7284]

Ya, the only problem with the build is that my dm runs by the logic of "in a game of cops and robbers, no one wants to play with superman" so he might not allow it. And I plan to do a more hit and run sort of build, maybe take a dip into rogue or barbarian as opposed to cleric.

So I would guess that wizards and druids are banned in his games, right? :smallwink:

With that said, a dip into Spiritual Lion Totem Barbarian to full attack on a charge is not horrible either.

[gorfnab]

Here is a Swift Hunter Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=uv1veodt53g3vgdtfuepgphc90&topic=103.0) that may be of use.

[Grod_The_Giant]

With that said, a dip into Spiritual Lion Totem Barbarian to full attack on a charge is not horrible either.
If you're going TWF, this is a pretty decent idea. As a bonus, it still lines up pretty well flavor-wise, since all of your classes would still be wilderness-y.

[Teapot Salty]

If you're going TWF, this is a pretty decent idea. As a bonus, it still lines up pretty well flavor-wise, since all of your classes would still be wilderness-y.

Can you guys give me the link to the totem barbarians?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Can you guys give me the link to the totem barbarians?
The ones in question are in Complete Champion. (There's a different set of Totem Barbarian ACFs in Unearthed Arcana, and thus on the SRD. Strangely, you can legally use both in a build.)

[Teapot Salty]

If I took two weapon pounce and improved skirmish, would I hit for quadruple skirmish damage on a 10< charge? (two hits of x2 skirmish each)

[TuggyNE]

If I took two weapon pounce and improved skirmish, would I hit for quadruple skirmish damage on a 10< charge? (two hits of x2 skirmish each)

You would get skirmish on each hit, yes, but I'm pretty sure Improved Skirmish gives you +2d6 if you move at least 20', not double damage.