Paladin Question

[Perpetr8r]

Ok so I know there are the UA variants, but I know Dragon Mag 310 has other variants of the Paladin.

I want to play a paladin that can steal and pickpocket, lie, and cheat, but also opposes evil in things such as murder, rape, torture, oppression, etc.

Which would best suit my character?

Basically I wanna play a Bard/Rogue type character but I want to play the paladin part as well.

[hamishspence]

It helps if you have a generous DM that defines cheating, lying, and stealing, "for the Greater Good", as nonevil acts.

the Avenger from Dragon Magazine 310, while CG, is a bit different from the Paladin of Freedom. It has an aura of Chaos instead of Good, and a somewhat looser code.

Is probably best bet, for playing from 1st level.

The Shadowbane Inquisitor, from Complete Adventurer - is a PRC designed to synergise paladin and rogue abilities - but is still LG. However, the description of the organization it belongs to, suggests a strong "dubious deeds For The Good of the Many are OK" attitude for the group as a whole.

The Grey Guard PRC from Complete Scoundrel is similar but does not advance rogue abilities.

[Perpetr8r]

I just read Avenger and I really like it. I do not mind the Detect as Chaos.
What threw me off was that it Detects Law and Smites Law. Which my DM and me have decided was a copy and paste job from the Anarch above as nothing in its text make sense.

[Teapot Salty]

Paladin of freedom should suit you nicely.

[hamishspence]

I just read Avenger and I really like it. I do not mind the Detect as Chaos.
What threw me off was that it Detects Law and Smites Law. Which my DM and me have decided was a copy and paste job from the Anarch above as nothing in its text make sense.

The Despot (LE) - from the Evil Paladins Dragon issue, Detects as Lawful, and has Detect Chaos and Smite Chaos.

I think of the Despot and the Paladin of Tyranny as examples of how two classes with the same alignment can each emphasise different aspect of it.

Same with the Avenger and the Paladin of Freedom: one's Chaotic Good, the other's Chaotic Good.

[Falcon X]

You sound like you want to stick to Paladin, but Crusader would be worth looking into. It's just a better Paladin that you get to choose which values it upholds.

[Perpetr8r]

Well I meant it was strange when compared to its flavor text.
A Paladin of Vengeance of all purposes. But tempers its quest for vengeance to be sure the punishments to fit the crimes, and never kills unless there is no other choice.

Where does that indicate it targets lawful people?

[Perpetr8r]

I do agree the Crusader is a technically better one. But my DM is rather new and I don't want her to have to read all the maneuvers and stuff just yet. (She is my Fiance) If this was her Brother as DM I would use Crusader and just refluff.

[To my previous post]
The Avenger is a guardian of the downtrodden and champion of the victims of the world. She is a loner, wandering from town to town in constant search of wrongs to right and oppressive dictators and rulers to overthrow. Yet despite the avenger's obsession with vengeance and punishment of those who do evil to others, she is not a cruel or sadistic person. She aims to temper her acts of vengeance so that the punishment fits the crime. Execution is a punishment of last resort, reserved only for the truly evil and despicable.

That is part of the flavor text, I will not write it entirely for fear of getting in trouble but you get the fluff

[hamishspence]

It does seem like "Detect Law" is not really all that useful for a player playing an Avenger closely to the fluff.

Though, their favoured enemies would at least more often be LE bullies, slavers, tyrants etc than CE thieves, bandits and so forth.

[Wargamer]

Ok so I know there are the UA variants, but I know Dragon Mag 310 has other variants of the Paladin.

I want to play a paladin that can steal and pickpocket, lie, and cheat, but also opposes evil in things such as murder, rape, torture, oppression, etc.

Which would best suit my character?

Basically I wanna play a Bard/Rogue type character but I want to play the paladin part as well.

Cross-class Cleric and Rogue. This is not Paladin territory at all.

Stealing goes against both Lawful and Chaotic Paladins - the former because it's illegal, the latter because depriving people of their rightful possessions violates their personal freedoms.

Paladins don't do this stuff.

[hamishspence]

Chaotic Good thief is a pretty common archetype though.

Stealing from "those who have obtained their wealth through immoral (from the thief's perspective) means" could qualify as nonevil enough for a Paladin of Freedom to do without Falling, depending on the DM.

And an Avenger, who is more Chaotic than Good, and keen on punishing the wicked:

Yet despite the avenger's obsession with vengeance and punishment of those who do evil to others, she is not a cruel or sadistic person. She aims to temper her acts of vengeance so that the punishment fits the crime.

might feel that stealing something they value, is an appropriate "act of vengeance" especially when it's a punishment that fits the crime.

[Perpetr8r]

I was thinking the stealing, lying aspect more in line with Robin Hood. Steal from the rich and those who have abused people to give to those who they have wronged or to benefit those who need it more.

After all to punish an evildoer you do not always need to kill them.

[hamishspence]

After all to punish an evildoer you do not always need to kill them.

Indeed. It does say that killing as a punishment is restricted to the most heinous of evildoers in the Avenger description, after all.

[Person_Man]

The Shadow Cloak Knight racial substitution level for a gnome Paladin 6 grants Hide in Plain Sight near shadows, plus sneaky Skills. It's from the Champions of Valor web enhancement. (Just Google it).

Whisper Gnome is a great race, and gets racial Silence. (Which you can improve with Feats).

Someone already posted about Paladin of Freedom, which is mechanically superior to normal Paladin anyway (Immunity to Compulsion is a much more valuable then immunity to Fear).

In terms of PrC, I would argue that your Special Mount is actually your most powerful class feature. So try and get a PrC that progresses it, even if it doesn't seem particularly sneeky. There are some shennanagins you can work out by designating it your Animal Companion or Familiar or whatnot, and then boosting both.

Alternatively, you could just play a Rogue or Psychic Rogue or Binder or Wildshape Ranger or Beguiler or Factotum or whatnot and call yourself a Paladin. It's not like they own the name, and having high Saves + Turn Undead + cool pet can be replicated lots of different ways.

[Particle_Man]

If you wanna do Robin Hood, maybe a ranger (archer type) that is CG and has a strong personal code? Robin Hood is often given as the archetype for CG. Rangers get divine spells too, so they have some kind of connection to the divine sorta like a paladin's. And you get good skill points and class skills to boot, which paladins sadly lack.

[Perpetr8r]

Ok not saying this happened... but it may have.

My Paladin/Avenger was faced with a noble who used the power of prima nocta to torment and torture the people who he ruled. Well this ticked my Paladin right the heck off. To torment someone like that, to degrade a person so completely as to treat them as property, to stripe them of their humanity for your own pleasure sent him over the edge.

So taking an idea from Dishonoreds Non-Lethal takedowns he took to the nobles home in the middle of the night, his thief buddy opened the door for him and he found the man sleeping. He woke him before beginning to ask him questions using his Goliath Greathammer as a strong incentive to speak with him. After finding out this man had driven his own daughter to suicide via torment and abuse and he had a 5 year old Granddaughter who was thankfully in a boarding school of sorts my paladin grew tired of this man's evil.

He considered all he had on hand, searched for scrolls of magic to better do this but found nothing of use. So he had to perform some.. cosmetic surgery on his own. Taking a shaving razor he shaved the mans head bald, then taking hot coals he used it to deform his face before removing the man's tongue. After this he healed the man with the mans own cure moderate wounds and his own heal check. Making sure the man lived. He then had a friendly NPC take the man and drop him off in the low income part of the city. With the knowledge that with these actions the Paladin had now striped him of his former life, no one would know it was him, recognize his face, etc. That he would know have to rely on the goodness of others to support him and in turn be kind to them to survive, as this man was weak and unlikely to be a threat to anyone physically all his terror and might came from his wealth and status.

Was this too extreme? He did not kill him, and he did not enjoy harming the man for his own pleasure, if he had the means to permanently transfigure the man's appearance with a scroll he would have used it, but none where available and time was becoming an issue. He did this out of vengeance which is the Avengers thing, he did not take Sadistic pleasure in the pain he caused, and he met out punishment he felt fit the crime.