Clawlock attack sequence questions?

[Bloodgruve]

Hey Playgrounders,

Wanna make sure I'm looking at this the right way.

Going to run a Monk/Warlock with Eldritch Claw and I'm looking at my attack sequences. Monk1/Warlock8 with BaB of +6/+1

Full attacks, is this right?

2x Claws @ +6 Hit
-or-
1 Unarmed @ +6 Hit, 1 Unarmed @ +1 Hit and 2x Claws @ +1 Hit
-or-
Flurry of Blows 2x @ +4 Hit and 2x Claws at +1 Hit?

If I added TWF could I
2x Unarmed @ +4 Hit, 1 Unarmed @ +1 Hit and 2x Claws @ +1 Hit?
-or-
Flurry 2x @ +4 Hit, 1 Unarmed Offhand @ +4 Hit and 2x Claws @ +1 Hit?

How does this look?


Input is appreciated,

Blood~

[BowStreetRunner]

First of all, Eldritch Claws are Natural Weapons. So you would not receive additional attacks from a high BAB when attacking with them. Additionally, they do not actually count as unarmed strikes either, so are not eligible for Flurry of Blows. So if you have a +6 BAB then it would work like this:

Single Attack +6
Full Attack using both claws +2/-2
Full Attack using both claws and TWF +4/+4

As a DM, I would probably allow the use of flurry with Natural Weapons, in which case you would have the additional option of:

Full Attack using one claw plus flurry +4/+4
Full Attack using both claws plus flurry +0/+0/-4
Full Attack using both claws plus flurry with TWF +2/+2/+2

[Red Fel]

Eldritch Claws, by the feat's express language, does not work with Flurry of Blows. That's out, period.

BowStreet is correct that claws, being natural weapons, don't get iteratives. However, the Beast Strike feat allows you to add your claw damage to unarmed strikes.

This means two things:
1. With Beast Strike, you can use your unarmed strikes and still get the damage from Eldritch Claws, so you can have iteratives.
2. Because the damage from Eldritch Claws already incorporates your unarmed strike damage, Beast Strike causes your unarmed attacks to deal (unarmed strike + unarmed strike + Eldritch Blast) damage. Yes, unarmed damage counts double.

[Bloodgruve]

First of all, Eldritch Claws are Natural Weapons. So you would not receive additional attacks from a high BAB when attacking with them. Additionally, they do not actually count as unarmed strikes either, so are not eligible for Flurry of Blows. So if you have a +6 BAB then it would work like this:

Single Attack +6
Full Attack using both claws +2/-2
Full Attack using both claws and TWF +4/+4

As a DM, I would probably allow the use of flurry with Natural Weapons, in which case you would have the additional option of:

Full Attack using one claw plus flurry +4/+4
Full Attack using both claws plus flurry +0/+0/-4
Full Attack using both claws plus flurry with TWF +2/+2/+2

Thank you for the reply.

I believe natural attacks are made at full BAB if Primary and if Secondary at -5. So wouldn't a full attack with 2x claws run at +6 and +6? Looks like you're applying TWF penalties to Claws? IIRC Natural attacks act seperately from iterative attacks unless something specifically states it effects all attacks like Snap Kick. Unless I'm missing something.

I'm aware that you can't use Claws in Flurry but can you use natural attacks in the same round as you use a Flurry? And can you then add an attack from TWF in the same round as a Flurry and Natural attacks?

Blood~

[BowStreetRunner]

...wouldn't a full attack with 2x claws run at +6 and +6? Looks like you're applying TWF penalties to Claws?...

Sorry, my mistake. TWF penalties would not apply to a full attack with natural attacks. All primary natural attacks would be at +0 and secondary natural attacks at -5. So you are correct that you would get two claw attacks at +6 each. TWF would be irrelevant in this instance.

[nedz]

You might want to look at the Multiattack and Improved Multiattack feats.
Multiattack reduces the -5 penalty to -2
Improved Multiattack reduces it further to 0

[Bloodgruve]

You might want to look at the Multiattack and Improved Multiattack feats.
Multiattack reduces the -5 penalty to -2
Improved Multiattack reduces it further to 0

Multiattack requires 3x natural attacks. Is there a way around this, like if I had a wand of Alter Self?

Blood~

[Red Fel]

Multiattack is a waste. With claws (or here, Eldritch Claws) you can simply take Beast Strike (mentioned above) and use your unarmed iterative attacks.

Further, instead of using Flurry, consider taking a feat like Snap Kick, which gives you an extra unarmed strike, tacked onto the end. (Hint: use the fists for it. They have claws.)

[Bloodgruve]

Multiattack is a waste. With claws (or here, Eldritch Claws) you can simply take Beast Strike (mentioned above) and use your unarmed iterative attacks.

Further, instead of using Flurry, consider taking a feat like Snap Kick, which gives you an extra unarmed strike, tacked onto the end. (Hint: use the fists for it. They have claws.)

Looking at Snap Kick also. What I'm really looking for is maximizing the number of unarmed attacks per round. Especially after Beast Strike comes into play.

Flurry/Flurry/TWF 'Offhand'/Snap Kick/Claw/Claw
-or-
Main/Iterative/'TWF Offhand'/Snap Kick/Claw/Claw

Just not sure if the TWF 'offhand' unarmed strike can be used in the same round as Flurry. I believe Natural Weapons can be used in the same round as Flurry of Blows as Monk's Unarmed Strikes can be made with other parts of the body.

Blood~

[Urpriest]

Looking at Snap Kick also. What I'm really looking for is maximizing the number of unarmed attacks per round. Especially after Beast Strike comes into play.

Flurry/Flurry/TWF 'Offhand'/Snap Kick/Claw/Claw
-or-
Main/Iterative/'TWF Offhand'/Snap Kick/Claw/Claw

Just not sure if the TWF 'offhand' unarmed strike can be used in the same round as Flurry. I believe Natural Weapons can be used in the same round as Flurry of Blows as Monk's Unarmed Strikes can be made with other parts of the body.

Blood~

If any character at all has "offhand" unarmed strike attacks, then you can use them in a Flurry. However, that's very dubious unless you're a barbarian, since you need two weapons to TWF and you only have one unarmed strike.

As for natural weapons being used alongside a Flurry, since Flurry disallows use of non-Monk weapons and claws are not a Monk weapon, you can't use them "in" the Flurry. Whether this means in the same full attack as a Flurry or just with the bonus attacks is something the designers never bothered to clarify because none of them ever bothered to make a character that had both natural attacks and Monk levels, or because those that did had no way to influence the people who wrote errata.

[Bloodgruve]

If any character at all has "offhand" unarmed strike attacks, then you can use them in a Flurry. However, that's very dubious unless you're a barbarian, since you need two weapons to TWF and you only have one unarmed strike.

As for natural weapons being used alongside a Flurry, since Flurry disallows use of non-Monk weapons and claws are not a Monk weapon, you can't use them "in" the Flurry. Whether this means in the same full attack as a Flurry or just with the bonus attacks is something the designers never bothered to clarify because none of them ever bothered to make a character that had both natural attacks and Monk levels, or because those that did had no way to influence the people who wrote errata.

Ok. I just reread TWF and it explicitly states that it doesn't work with Unarmed Strike.. Through all of this I assumed that TWF didn't disallow Unarmed Attacks which it explicitly does...

Also, even if you could Flurry and add other attacks in the same round you'd get a bunch of negatives as all other attacks are made at -2 which would drive natural attacks to -7.

So it looks like the best bet would be;
Main Attack/Iteratives/Snap Kick/Claw/Claw?

And with Beast Strike all the standard attacks and Snap Kick gain Eldritch Claw damage on top of its own damage.

Thanks for the input,

Blood~

[Urpriest]

Ok. I just reread TWF and it explicitly states that it doesn't work with Unarmed Strike.. Through all of this I assumed that TWF didn't disallow Unarmed Attacks which it explicitly does...

Huh? I don't see anything of the sort in any of the TWF rules. Can you point it out? It even explicitly calls out Unarmed Strikes as Light for TWF purposes.


Also, even if you could Flurry and add other attacks in the same round you'd get a bunch of negatives as all other attacks are made at -2 which would drive natural attacks to -7.

Yes, that's true. Without Multiattack, you'd want some high attack bonuses to confidently pull off this sort of thing, or Wraithstrike access.


So it looks like the best bet would be;
Main Attack/Iteratives/Snap Kick/Claw/Claw?

Sort of. Note that Snap Kick's penalty, like Flurry's, applies to all attacks in the round.

The reason I say "sort of" is that if you go by strict RAW, you must make attacks in order of bonus. So it would actually be Main Attack/Snap Kick/First Iterative/Claw/Claw/Rest of Iteratives

[Bloodgruve]

Bah.. I accidentally read Two-Weapon Defense. TWF Does state UAS is a light weapon.

So then TWF could be used to gain an extra attack.?.

[Urpriest]

Bah.. I accidentally read Two-Weapon Defense. TWF Does state UAS is a light weapon.

So then TWF could be used to gain an extra attack.?.

Yes, maybe. The issue is that, while an Unarmed Strike definitely can be one of the weapons you TWF with, it's unclear whether it can be both, since normally TWF requires two weapons.

[Bloodgruve]

"An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon."

Would this allow it?

TY again,

Blood~

[Red Fel]

If you're holding a weapon in one of your hands, you're not making a claw attack with that hand.

Wasn't that the point a ways back? The claw attacks?