OOTS #944 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[DaggerPen]

Guess we got an offscreen confession after all. Man, Roy's in over his head here, huh? And V... yeah. Also, a bit more backstory on what happened with Eric.

Also, there's something oddly striking about the "And our cleric is in the shop" line.

All in all, a fantastic strip.

Also, "Don't go trying to change the subject by trying to determine the actual subject" applies to entirely too many of these discussion threads.

[Domino Quartz]

Whoa. I guess now we know what happened to Eric.

[otakuryoga]

:elan: deep philosolophical stuff...woohoo

[Guancyto]

Dem feels, bro.

I'm liking dem feels.

[Cuthalion]

I feel horrible for Roy's family. :smallfrown:

[cctrackstar]

I miss not having pages of comments explaining stuff that seems obvious when it is explained. How is he talking about donating blood? Where is the family history? This one is a bit deeper than usual. :smallconfused:

Edit: Oh, is his father the 'wizard' then? Yeah, probably.

[Silva Stormrage]

Great comic, really find Roy's lines to the point and powerful.

[blunk]

Ah, the LG man's burden...

ETA: the folded hands are a nice touch.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Wow. Roy took that...very, very well.

[Lappy9001]

Really glad V's getting it all out in the open. Glad Roy's being understanding about it :smallsmile:

[Ranzear]

Edit: Oh, is his father the 'wizard' then? Yeah, probably.

I can't figure if it's his father or a younger Roy still not set on being a fighter...

[Forikroder]

I can't figure if it's his father or a younger Roy still not set on being a fighter...

could have even been his sister

im pretty sure it was him though... maybe becoming a fighter was how he attoned? by taking away his ability to repeat it?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html

DEFINENTLY his father

[CrispyCriminal]

God that must've hit home hard if Roy couldn't find the track to which he was trying to point towards, it would of for me if I had to compare such a spell to my own family history.

[B. Dandelion]

Wow, that was... I felt like I really connected to Roy in this one. Trying to honestly struggle with some moral quandary that he (for pretty good reasons!) feels is out of his league entirely, and being trapped into making the best decision he knows how, without any real assurance at all he's doing the right thing, but all he can do is follow his logic and his gut, flawed and personal as the decisions he might make can be. That's so... quintessentially human, right there. It's such an honest response to the dilemma he's been put in.

[blunk]

I can't figure if it's his father or a younger Roy still not set on being a fighter...Definitely his father - when he was in his Afterlife, he told his little brother that it wasn't his (Roy's) job the "watch the adult".

Edit: linky linky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html)

[Guancyto]

Definitely his father - when he was in his Afterlife, he told his little brother that it wasn't his (Roy's) job the "watch the adult".

Damn, ninja'd while I went to hunt down the relevant strip.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html

But yeah, it's his father.

[The Second]

Roy is taking the news fairly well, I think.

Also, nice 'Dammit, Jim" moment. Just without the Dammit, or the Jim.

[RedSand]

Regarding that last panel, I would just like to remind everyone:
+8 racial bonus to Listen checks.

[Incom]

At first Roy's line before the beat panel went over my head.

Then I audibly said "oooohhh... ooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh..."

There are not enough feels gifs on the internet to cover that one.

[Blisstake]

Huh... V seems pretty well composed for just admitting all the terrible things he did.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ah, glossing over the most evil act in the entire comic strip and possibly the history of the OotS's world so easily...

I suppose Roy's a practical man and realizes at this point he needs all the loyal high level casters he can get. Still sucks that V is getting such a pass, expected as it was.

[Etheolin]

Bravo, Roy... and

B R A V O, G I A N T ! ! !

[mikeejimbo]

I think Roy is in shock.

[Starwulf]

Awesome comic! Interesting to see how Roy is handling it, looks like he's still dealing with multiple issues of his own, and this is just bringing them up to the forefront for him. I like it!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Great strip, as always. It's very interesting how, Roy feels that he can only look at this from a tactical perspective. The further comments on Eric's fate are very intriguing, and answer some questions. We also get more perspective into Roy's decisions regarding Durkon, which is important, I feel.

[Muenster Man]

Roy was my favorite character before this strip and this has reinforced that greatly. His reactions are both fair and completely human. Good bit of writing here.

[Vaarsuvius-Mage]

Awesome update!! :)

[Cavenskull]

Ah, glossing over the most evil act in the entire comic strip and possibly the history of the OotS's world so easily...

I suppose Roy's a practical man and realizes at this point he needs all the loyal high level casters he can get. Still sucks that V is getting such a pass, expected as it was.
It's not rare for police to negotiate with criminals in order to achieve better results than a "no compromise" approach would yield. As with Belkar and his deferred sentence, Roy can always seek justice for Vaarsuvius later.

[ti'esar]

Wow, really well-done strip. Really moving for eleven panels, and then the twelfth got a huge laugh out of me.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Oh, V. Oh, Roy.

Roy is right. V realizing just what s/he did and trying to atone for it won't even begin to undo it, but it counts for something. And elves live a very long time.

[Kalmegil]

This is a masterful comic. Even the punchline is profound (and still funny).

[Amphiox]

I must say my admiration for Roy climbs with every strip. He's been put through the ringer with tough ethical (and leadership, maybe even more on the side of leadership) decisions lately, and he has done remarkably well.

[DaOldeWolf]

This comic was completely beautiful. I love the body language involved (especially V´s) and its a really touching scene. Its nice to know more about what happened to Roy´s little brother and hey, there is a lot going in the scene but it doesnt fee cluttered. I just love how this played. Felicitaciones, Giant. :smallsmile:

[konradknox]

2nd page woo!
You rock, Giant. Nicely done!

[Muenster Man]

This comic was completely beautiful. I love the body language involved (especially V´s) and its a really touching scene. Its nice to know more about what happened to Roy´s little brother and hey, there is a lot going in the scene but it doesnt fee cluttered. I just love how this played. Felicitaciones, Giant. :smallsmile:
Agreed. This is already one of my favorites. I think the body language and the pacing of this strip is what sets it over the top.


I must say my admiration for Roy climbs with every strip. He's been put through the ringer with tough ethical (and leadership, maybe even more on the side of leadership) decisions lately, and he has done remarkably well.
That's because Roy is the best :smallwink:

[CoffeeIncluded]

Agreed. I especially love the way V folds hir hands. S/he reminds me of a scared child who knows they did something really bad and have been caught by the principal or their parents, or told them, and they don't know what to do.

[blunk]

Damn, ninja'd while I went to hunt down the relevant strip"Strike first, strike hard, no mercy sir!"

(ninjitsu, karate, whatevs)

[Turgon9357]

I've always enjoyed the relationship between Roy and V. Two different kinds of smart coming together, interacting in a way that no one else on the team really can. Reminds me of Robin and Raven, this scene especially.

[Fitzclowningham]

I weep for the forum bandwidth sacrificed because this page hadn't come sooner.

[Legato Endless]

I miss not having pages of comments explaining stuff that seems obvious when it is explained. How is he talking about donating blood? Where is the family history? This one is a bit deeper than usual. :smallconfused:

Edit: Oh, is his father the 'wizard' then? Yeah, probably.

Donating blood is part of his "trying to make things right." Or more accurately, to do something. He feels responsible for Durkon "dying on his watch."


Ah, glossing over the most evil act in the entire comic strip and possibly the history of the OotS's world so easily...

I suppose Roy's a practical man and realizes at this point he needs all the loyal high level casters he can get. Still sucks that V is getting such a pass, expected as it was.

I imagine this theme is going to come up again in the next book. Allowing Vampire!Durkon to keep walking around is going to have consequences.

[Messenger]

Some of the best comics I've read are all talk. The emotion, the intelligent discussion, the character growth- this update has all of those.

So... Eugene was responsible for the death of his younger son? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html) And he barely acknowledged it? (Or his response was to spoil his daughter?) Coupled with how he simply abandoned his Blood Oath (even if made while drunk), can someone explain to me why he's LG and not something other than Good? :smallannoyed: He's truly a ****.

And V, it doesn't matter from which set of experiences Roy's speaking. In all of them, what matters is never giving up trying to atone and avoid past mistakes. :smallsmile:

[Crusher]

Coming clean is "kind of" good for the soul...

[Murk]

Much sadn issues on one page.

Sad. :smallfrown:

[Gift Jeraff]

BORING! I want to see Belkar stab something.





In all seriousness though, I wonder if V will contribute to the blood drive.

[ThePhantom]

I found it was funny.

[jidasfire]

Before this in all likelihood turns into an ugly, judgmental, pedantic shouting match, I would like to say this strip was beautiful. Roy is a great leader and a great hero, honestly one of the best fantasy heroes I've ever read, and I would follow him just about anywhere. I don't know if V will ever quite put things right, but with Roy leading the way, I believe there's hope that s/he could.

Seriously, this comic more and more just consistently knocks it out of the park, and it's crazy to me that it doesn't get more recognition for that.

[Grey Watcher]

Man, Burlew, the way you can juggle humor and serious discussion without either cheapening the other is a thing to behold.

Also, Roy has always and is always just going to drag around Eric's death like psychological dead weight, isn't he? Well, at least when he's in the afterlife, they can hang out, even Roy doesn't remember it when he returns to the mortal world.

[Cikomyr]

Some of the best comics I've read are all talk. The emotion, the intelligent discussion, the character growth- this update has all of those.

So... Eugene was responsible for the death of his younger son? And he barely acknowledged it? (Or his response was to spoil his daughter?) Coupled with how he simply abandoned his Blood Oath (even if made while drunk), can someone explain to me why he's LG and not something other than Good? :smallannoyed: He's truly a ****.

And V, it doesn't matter from which set of experiences Roy's speaking. In all of them, what matters is never giving up trying to atone and avoid past mistakes. :smallsmile:

Being good doesn't mean you aren't a jerkass. Or that you can't be a coward.

And I personally believe that Eugene is both.

[Lurk-Sothoth]

Woohoo! The best thing about the random update schedule of OOTS is that it's always worthwhile to visit the page multiple times a day because you never know when an awesome comic is going to drop. :smallbiggrin:

I have been waiting with great anticipation for V to confess about the soul splice and Familicide, and Rich handled it with aplomb. I'm glad that V was able to spill the beans calmly, not under duress (such as after disappearing in the middle of a situation with no explanation.) Roy is right to focus on the tactical implications, which is honestly the only part anyone can address. His moral advice to V was also spot-on.

[Aadst1]

BORING! I want to see Belkar stab something.

To be fair, I always feel like Belkar should be stabbing something. Maybe just in the background. Like, you just happen to see Belkar stabbing a cockroach through the open door behind another character, while those characters do whatever is relevant to the comic. Not necessarily evil stabbing, but stabbing something. :smallbiggrin:

That's a painful conundrum they're in now... Having to plan every fight for what to do if you're wizard up and disappears!

[ti'esar]

Man, Burlew, the way you can juggle humor and serious discussion without either cheapening the other is a thing to behold.

Also, Roy has always and is always just going to drag around Eric's death like psychological dead weight, isn't he? Well, at least when he's in the afterlife, they can hang out, even Roy doesn't remember it when he returns to the mortal world.

I don't think there's anything particularly unhealthy about it, but Roy is certainly striking me more and more as surprisingly well-adjusted, given his family issues.

[TheRedPrince]

Man, Burlew, the way you can juggle humor and serious discussion without either cheapening the other is a thing to behold.

Also, Roy has always and is always just going to drag around Eric's death like psychological dead weight, isn't he? Well, at least when he's in the afterlife, they can hang out, even Roy doesn't remember it when he returns to the mortal world.

The death of Eric was probably one of the most important events in his life. Roy's decision to become a fighter was almost assuredly, at least partially, made because Roy hated what his father's obsession with magic had done to his family. Roy is very much like Eugene, though he would probably put you through a wall if you said that, at least in regards to their almost single-minded on a goal. I am honestly surprised this doesn't come to the surface more often.

[AutomatedTeller]

Loved this comic. I guess it's a comic - there's certainly nothing funny in it. The punchline is more true than humor.

But it's awesome - I agree that Roy is in shock - he simply has no idea how to react to V's confession - is he supposed to execute the elf? do nothing? turn V over to the authorities? Which authorities? They have all this saving the world stuff to do, as well.

Of course he leans on tactics - it's what people do.

Some years ago, i was starting a new job and the night before I was supposed to start, I got a phone call from my mom, who was in the hospital from a heart attack. I said "oh, thanks for calling" and was about to hang up when I realized she had had a heart attack. I then spent the next 5 minutes leaving my apartment 4 times and realizing I had forgotten things like my wallet, keys and phone. (mom recovered nicely)

This story makes me want to smack Eugene more and more. But this is like someone who leaves their kid in the car when it's 110 degrees out by accident, not someone who beats their kid. stupid and inattentive, not evil...

[Fjolnir]

I actually like that Roy acknowledges that there is a difference between Belkar's decision to be a full time murder hobo and V's unwitting mass murder of a pretty large subset of a species, in both magnitude and responsibility.

[Messenger]

Being good doesn't mean you aren't a jerkass. Or that you can't be a coward.

And I personally believe that Eugene is both.Except that Eugene acts on both to the worst effect, at the expense of other people (his own family in fact) while neglecting the consequences.

He may not be killing people or trying to take over the world but he's still a selfish bastard. That's not even something most "normal"/Neutral would do.

I get that you can be a jerk or a coward and still be Good. For the former, you've got Gregory House, MD, who'll treat you coldly or harshly but will do his best to save your life. For the latter, you've got characters genuinely weak and scared out of their wits but who still do their best to help others. It's that Eugene does neither.

And I'm not even sure "coward" in the strictest sense of the word is appropriate. Eugene simply gave up even despite not being a coward. He abdicated his duties and responsibilities. How is that Lawful Good?

I can't wait for the deva to tell him he's headed to the Neutral afterlife.

[Forikroder]

The death of Eric was probably one of the most important events in his life. Roy's decision to become a fighter was almost assuredly, at least partially, made because Roy hated what his father's obsession with magic had done to his family. Roy is very much like Eugene, though he would probably put you through a wall if you said that, at least in regards to their almost single-minded on a goal. I am honestly surprised this doesn't come to the surface more often.

how do you figure that exactly? he showed quite clearly after he Shojo and Eugene talked that hes not like taht at all

as for Eugene remember were only being shown very small snippets of his life, his Wife had a very good impression of him and id say shes the one who would know him best

[Joseph_Lavode]

A fairly levelheaded response from Roy there. I'm glad that V isn't just reporting what happened to Roy, but also seeking his counsel on what to do now. He could do a lot worse than Roy.

[Caex]

Hm, looks like Eric's fate and Roy's decision to go fighter over wizard are connected. Great strip.

[Fungusamnguss]

I normally dont post on the comics even though I religiously keep up with each new one. However, this last episode was great. A+

[Porthos]

I'll join the chorus and say that Roy IS dealing with this remarkably well.

A couple of points:

To those who say that V is getting off easy, or that things are being glossed over, this ISN'T a Vaarsuvius centered strip. It's a Roy one. Almost all of this comic is centered on Roy's reaction, and a look at Roy's psyche.

Which leads me into the second point:

Roy is driven by Responsibility to a large degree. It's one of the reasons why he beat himself up over his actions in the Bandit Camp. What I hadn't drawn a parallel to is Roy equating his guilt over not being able to save Durkon with his guilt/anger over not being able to save Eric.

<As an aside, we only have Roy's recollections on just what happened there. Not to go all Rashomon, but I'm not willing to damn Eugene over what went down there based on Roy's sayso. Not without seeing something a bit more third partish.

...

'sides I'm sure there are plenty of other things to beat Eugene up over :smalltongue:>

===

As for V? It is interesting that he turns to Roy for guidance, morally. Really speaks to their friendship and how much he truly value's Roy's judgement.

I suspect this isn't over by a long shot. But it is telling that V is willing to open up about this and try to seek guidance. That ain't nothing. And a very positive step for said elf.

One last thing. V could have just shrugged his shoulders and let Roy keep talking about things on a tactical level. It would have been all too easy for him to just let the talk slide away. Instead he forced the issue and kept Roy talking about it.

That also says something about where V's headspace is right now.

[137beth]

I was under the impression that the subject was the proper determination of the subject?

Heavy monologues interspersed with comedy is the reason I love Roy.

[Loreweaver15]

It's amazing how much body language you can get out of these stick figures, Rich. Fantastic work.

[SaintRidley]

Somehow not one bit of this interaction is surprising to me. And yet I am immensely glad to see it.

[zimmerwald1915]

His moral advice to V was also spot-on.
Would you mind pointing it out? Because I don't see any actual advice in the strip. The point of the strip is that there is no advice anyone can give.

Then again, this seems germane. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia14Nx_6jQY)


To those who say that V is getting off easy, or that things are being glossed over, this ISN'T a Vaarsuvius centered strip. It's a Roy one. Almost all of this comic is centered on Roy's reaction, and a look at Roy's psyche.
Of course it is. It's a Roy-centered comic.

I will say, bound as I am by my previous statements on the matter, that I'm disappointed that Roy is letting V stay with the party.

[Icalasari]

I do wonder how V will make up for his sins and atone for them?

[vergil]

Really good.

When you look at where Roy started, literally hiring the rest of the Order, through Dorukan's dungeon where he often treated them like baggage, through the abandonment of Elan, through the Miko arc, and everything else, and see where he's come to, how close to all of the members of the Order he has become and how much they in turn have come to respect him on a personal level. It really is awesome how far he and they have come.

I think this strip right here cemented Roy as my favorite character in the strip.

[Porthos]

One thing that I wasn't expecting from The Talk.

Roy is NOT going to let the Durkon situation stay in its present state. He may not yet know how to deal with it, or even when he should deal with it. But I think it is pretty clear that Roy is intending on 'fixing' things in regards to his best friend.

He may not actually be able to 'fix' things. Or he might be pursuaded that 'fixing' the situation isn't what he initally thought it might be. But it's not pretty damn clear that he isn't just going to shrug his shoulders and accept this as a new Status Quo.

[Griffincat]

Thank you, Giant. We're watching the stages of grief unspool, and it's great.

[Forikroder]

Would you mind pointing it out? Because I don't see any actual advice in the strip. The point of the strip is that there is no advice anyone can give.

Then again, this seems germane. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia14Nx_6jQY)

not so much advice as "your doing what you need to be doing and doing it the right way"

[Math_Mage]

Would you mind pointing it out? Because I don't see any actual advice in the strip. The point of the strip is that there is no advice anyone can give.

Then again, this seems germane. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia14Nx_6jQY)
"You may never make up for what you did, but you have a responsibility to try" is pretty clear advice, even if not exactly novel information for V.

[Thanatosia]

wow...

/adds to favorite OOTs strip file.

[Kaulguard]

Ah, glossing over the most evil act in the entire comic strip and possibly the history of the OotS's world so easily...

I suppose Roy's a practical man and realizes at this point he needs all the loyal high level casters he can get. Still sucks that V is getting such a pass, expected as it was.

He didn't gloss over it, he admitted that it was too large for him to get his head around. There's a HUGE difference.

[zimmerwald1915]

"You may never make up for what you did, but you have a responsibility to try" is pretty clear advice, even if not exactly novel information for V.
*shrug* You say clear, I say vague and unhelpful. Which is probably the point.

[Messenger]

Also, Roy has always and is always just going to drag around Eric's death like psychological dead weight, isn't he? Well, at least when he's in the afterlife, they can hang out, even Roy doesn't remember it when he returns to the mortal world.I suppose in Roy's mind, to not remember what happened and the lessons learned would be to kill Eric all over again. It wasn't his fault, but he'd feel complicit if he did so.

Besides, I think being able to hang with Eric in the afterlife is a fine reward for Roy. The lifting of guilt that way seems a good part of it. :smallsmile:

[Porthos]

"You may never make up for what you did, but you have a responsibility to try" is pretty clear advice.

And the "I've been told that trying counts for a lot" is a direct callback to this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html).

Now whether or not 'trying counts for a lot' matters to judgers of other alignments is rather besides the point. It was a message that Roy has taken to heart, and it is natural that he would repeat it to someone else who is seeking guidance on what to do.

[Messenger]

Thank you, Giant. We're watching the stages of grief unspool, and it's great.Have a cookie, sir. :smallsmile:

[Snails]

And I'm not even sure "coward" in the strictest sense of the word is appropriate. Eugene simply gave up even despite not being a coward. He abdicated his duties and responsibilities. How is that Lawful Good?

I can't wait for the deva to tell him he's headed to the Neutral afterlife.

We are privy to Eugene's greatest moral failures. It is quite possible he has had his successes. Roy presumably stopped caring about his father's successes, after the accident. Eugene might be a quite remarkable hero, yet that is a non-factor to Roy's story.

[Forikroder]

*shrug* You say clear, I say vague and unhelpful. Which is probably the point.
noone can help him since noones been in his shoes

they can at best point him in a good direction

[zimmerwald1915]

We are privy to Eugene's greatest moral failures. It is quite possible he has had his successes. Roy presumably stopped caring about his father's successes, after the accident. Eugene might be a quite remarkable hero, yet that is a non-factor to Roy's story.
Given the content of today's strip this might not count for a lot, but in Girard's microcosm, Roy imagines Eugene getting into Celestia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html). Earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html), he takes it for granted that Eugene will get into Celestia, and bargains with him on that basis. Despite everything he knows about Eugene's failings, Roy still believes him to be worthy of that afterlife.

[Snails]

I will say, bound as I am by my previous statements on the matter, that I'm disappointed that Roy is letting V stay with the party.

The unspoken and obvious is that attempting to save the world from being unmade (or a worse fate) is about as good a down payment for atonement as imaginable.

Roy is not a paladin. He is allowed to keep whom he chooses in his party, based on his reasonable best guess about whether he himself can handle the burden of leadership. V's mistake was hit own. It is not Roy's fault for not foreseeing that little incident (heck, he was dead at the time), and Roy is being reasonable by guessing his leadership is more likely to help V on towards the correct path than a dismissal would.

[TheRedPrince]

how do you figure that exactly? he showed quite clearly after he Shojo and Eugene talked that hes not like taht at all

as for Eugene remember were only being shown very small snippets of his life, his Wife had a very good impression of him and id say shes the one who would know him best

Roy has shown time and time again, if a task is put to him he will do his best or die trying. A fairly admirable quality. Eugene on the other hand, his single mindedness caused the death of his younger son and an emotional rift between him and the rest of his family. Eugene is the perfect example of Roy could become if he is not careful. Eugene is very short sighted, because he forgets what he is fighting for.

[Forikroder]

Roy has shown time and time again, if a task is put to him he will do his best or die trying. A fairly admirable quality. Eugene on the other hand, his single mindedness caused the death of his younger son and an emotional rift between him and the rest of his family. Eugene is the perfect example of Roy could become if he is not careful. Eugene is very short sighted, because he forgets what he is fighting for.

Roy came very close to leaving after Durkon died, hes commited but he still can look at it all objectively

[Loreweaver15]

Also, what part of "contrition and atonement are a real thing, and you're seeking them, so I'm going to completely stifle your attempts and punish you for confessing your crimes to me while we're in the middle of a quest to save the world" strikes you as a particularly Roy thing to do?

[oppyu]

It's worth remembering that Roy is a pretty awesome dude. A lot of the time, the standardised good guy leaders end up being kind of boring. Cyclops (when he's not leading a militant mutant terror organisation), Leonardo, Superman. But Roy maintains the unimpeachable good guyness, remains funny, and is just... well, he's awesome. As displayed.

I like that he didn't have a knee-jerk reaction that some expected (if he kicked Vaarsuvius out while keeping Belkar and feeding the vampire, I would be writing much less generously about him), but he also didn't let V off the genocidal hook. V may never be able to do enough Good to offset hir incalculably huge mistake, but the best thing they can do for now is try.

[Porthos]

Of course it is. It's a Roy-centered comic.

Well, what I meant is that there have been updates that have clearly centered on other characters and been posted to drive their character arcs.

And while it might have been expected that this conversation would be largely V driven, I was at least a little surprised it was almost entierly Roy-driven.

At the very least, I was surprised it wasn't more of a Two Hander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-hander)*.

* Techincally, yes, it was a Two Hander. But one that was largely focused on one character rather than both.

This update did drive the V arc a bit. But it was more looking into Roy's reactions and his advice, and yes, his journey he is going under. Which makes a bit of sense because we're already privy to a lot of V's thoughts on the matter.

So, yes, the comic as a whole is largely Roy-centered. But I was more talking about this specific strip.

...

Damn the fact that the word 'comic' can have multiple meanings in conversations. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) :smalltongue:

[JessmanCA]

"Hey, don't go changing the subject by trying to determine the actual subject"

awesome.

[Catticus]

First time I've experienced a chill reading a comic. Thanks. That was awesome.

[B. Dandelion]

*shrug* You say clear, I say vague and unhelpful. Which is probably the point.

You know, I think it was, honestly. The expressly acknowledged limitations of the comic were what I found so endearing about it. Roy is honestly trying his best, and there is no possible answer that is going to come easily to him on how to best advise Vaarsuvius. He can look at things from a tactical perspective, he can draw on his own life experiences, he can try to offer his support as a friend and a leader -- but he can't provide the direct map to Redemptiontown, it's just not in his power to do so.

[multilis]

Black dragon Alignment: Always chaotic evil (according to monster book, obviously exceptions are rarer as result)
Most of monsters OOTS attack: usually evil

"All of the above"

...Or Elan destroying unknown number of monsters (perhaps more than V) with one button press in first dungeon, monsters with alignments on average more likely to be good than offspring of black dragons.

...Or Roy and friends killing goblins in their sleep in their homes (according to X any sort of monster including good turns an unoccupied dungeon into their home) in strip 11 with smiles on faces. Goblins have alignment on average better than black dragons.

They live in a world where the "good guys" surprise drop fireballs, etc on groups of trolls, goblins, etc on regular basis, and OOTS was critical of Miko talking to the enemy rather than surprise attacking them. In normal situation V fireballing a group of 20 trolls in first strike surprise attack would be seen as good, but if instead fireballs 1000 supposed black dragons is severely bad. (might be a few part black dragon relatives in the black dragon/troll/goblin camp that V doesn't see when she fireballs)

If this was "goblins comics" then OOTS would be villains, and Roy in this panel would be seen as hypocrite.

I see a certain amount of logic failure in a small event being "good" or "ok", but if scaled up then suddenly flips to "bad". Eg not that long ago Haley killed a bunch of law enforcement officers/guards in T's kingdom with no worry or later regrets on whether some of them might not have been lawful evil, or whether running away rather than killing them all might have been option.

So main thing that seems to affect alignment is "don't kill too many enemies per minute" (unless you are a dumb bard), epic wizards have to be careful to spread out the death over time rather than cast too big a fireball if surprise attack.

...

Or perhaps this is really proof that Miko was heroic character. She resisted urge to surprise attack. Instead she said hello, gave them time to eat food, be in good mood, so that if non-evil trolls were there, they might negotiate a non violent alternative in friendly manner. OOTS are clearly more evil than early Miko because they wanted to surprise attack. ;P

[Bird]

It strikes me that Vaarsuvius sees through Roy's obfuscation immediately, and realizes that he's talking about Eugene. (Roy only talks about how he "knew a wizard," but V intuits that this refers to "family history.")

I wonder whether V has figured out that the victim was a sibling of Roy's. Likely so, I think.

[Khiron]

Man, strips like these make me remember why I love this comic.

It was simple, and yet deep. Humorous, and yet grave. Brief, and yet eloquent.

I wish my sessions had party interaction like this. Props, Giant.

[zimmerwald1915]

And while it might have been expected that this conversation would be largely V driven, I was at least a little surprised it was almost entierly Roy-driven.
If V's main role from now on is helping to drive Roy's story, it will mean her contribution to the comic will have increased by an order of magnitude.


At the very least, I was surprised it wasn't more of a Two Hander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-hander)*.

* Techincally, yes, it was a Two Hander. But one that was largely focused on one character rather than both.
An aside: The Zoo Story doesn't have a link? This must be rectified at once!

[MadBear]

I'll never understand the forum goers that seem to hate V and give 0 credit to him for the past bit.

V committed a truly horrendous act. An act that he was incapable of fully comprehending until much later. In fact upon learning of the death of Girards Family he began to realize the scope of his deed, and how even his previous assumption about dragons overall was mistaken. Now that he has a full understanding of what he has done, he has expressed much interest in trying to figure out a way to make it right.

V may never succeed (in fact how could he with how much harm he actually caused), but he is on the right path.

I remember back when V tried to tell Roy what he did during the Team Tarquin battle, and people said that V wasn't trying hard enough/ would now use this as an excuse to not tell Roy what he did. He has in fact did the exact opposite. He wants to make right what he did. Roy understands that.

Roy would be stupid to kick V out of the party for what he did. Unlike Belkar, V has acknowledge what he did was wrong, and that he needs to work towards fixing it.

I just get the feeling that V could resurrect every person that he killed, give them back their previous lives, shower them and their families with wealth, and give them a puppy, and people would decry "V isn't trying to redeem his deeds".

[Messenger]

We are privy to Eugene's greatest moral failures. It is quite possible he has had his successes. Roy presumably stopped caring about his father's successes, after the accident. Eugene might be a quite remarkable hero, yet that is a non-factor to Roy's story.Fair enough. This update got me reading through Roy's time spent in Celestia. This one seems to apply. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) It's just that choosing to abandon things out of boredom or inconvenience strikes me as very un-LG especially when it comes to matters of family and justice.

[Porthos]

Stepping away from the five billionth rehash of V's Deeds, was anyone else struck by the "And our cleric is in the shop" comment?

IMO, it shows that whatever Roy thinks about Durkon (letting him stay in the party, helping his situation) he isn't exactly blind to the fact that this isn't the exact same Durkon who used to be walking next to him for years.

Or, at the very least, he isn't putting carte blanche faith in the idea that Durkon is Durkon, now with fangs and a bit of a changed dietary regime.

If I want to extrapolate a bit more, he said that in a moment of stress when talking about who to turn to when it came to matters of judgment. That Roy considers Durkon not someone to turn to in such an instance speaks volumes to what he really thinks about the situation.

[zimmerwald1915]

I remember back when V tried to tell Roy what he did during the Team Tarquin battle, and people said that V wasn't trying hard enough/ would now use this as an excuse to not tell Roy what he did.
Come now, there was only one person arguing that and we all know who it was. You can name names, I don't mind :smallredface:

[MadBear]

Come now, there was only one person arguing that and we all know who it was. You can name names, I don't mind :smallredface:

lol, was it you? I honestly don't remember, but that just made my day lol :smallbiggrin:


Edit:

From discussion thread #920


What "doesn't get"? She had time to come clean in full if she wanted, as shown by the two long gaps in her spiel. She chose to keep concealing things, and chose her words very carefully to make it seem like she was confessing when in fact she was saying nothing at all. And it worked, at least on Blackwing and probably on a number of forumites.


Omayn.

It was you :smallwink:

[Loreweaver15]

Come now, there was only one person arguing that and we all know who it was. You can name names, I don't mind :smallredface:

"I love denying character development!" :P

[oppyu]

Stepping away from the five billionth rehash of V's Deeds, was anyone else struck by the "And our cleric is in the shop" comment?

IMO, it shows that whatever Roy thinks about Durkon (letting him stay in the party, helping his situation) he isn't exactly blind to the fact that this isn't the exact same Durkon who used to be walking next to him for years.

Or, at the very least, he isn't putting carte blanche faith in the idea that Durkon is Durkon, now with fangs and a bit of a changed dietary regime.

If I want to extrapolate a bit more, he said that in a moment of stress when talking about who to turn to when it came to matters of judgment. That Roy considers Durkon not someone to turn to in such an instance speaks volumes to what he really thinks about the situation.
Ah yes, another fantastic thing about this strip. I was worried for a second that Roy wasn't planning to resurrect his loyal cleric, which was depressing.

[zimmerwald1915]

lol, was it you? I honestly don't remember, but that just made my day lol :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, it was. Turned out to be a bad reading of the strip in question, didn't it?

[ThePhantasm]

One thing that I wasn't expecting from The Talk.

Roy is NOT going to let the Durkon situation stay in its present state. He may not yet know how to deal with it, or even when he should deal with it. But I think it is pretty clear that Roy is intending on 'fixing' things in regards to his best friend.

He may not actually be able to 'fix' things. Or he might be pursuaded that 'fixing' the situation isn't what he initally thought it might be. But it's not pretty damn clear that he isn't just going to shrug his shoulders and accept this as a new Status Quo.

What's funny is that I argued this very thing in a previous thread and everyone reacted as if my opinion was ludicrous and that I was totally misinterpreting Roy's opinion of Durkon's vampirism. Oh, and I was somehow a closet racist or something for even suggesting it. Yeah.

After that delightful (cough) conversation went down, its gratifying to have my interpretation of the strip validated.

[Porthos]

Ah yes, another fantastic thing about this strip. I was worried for a second that Roy wasn't planning to resurrect his loyal cleric, which was depressing.

Aye, I alluded to this earlier when I drew a parallel between this and the Eric situation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16971178&postcount=61).

Roy feels responsible for Durkon's death on some level and feels the need to 'fix' the situation. Sadly for him, I don't think it's going to be as easy as he hopes. Especially if it turns out that Durkon gets, ahem, cold feet at the idea of being rezzed.

I really worry about how Roy might take such a, ahem again, turn of events.



What's funny is that I argued this very thing in a previous thread and everyone reacted as if my opinion was ludicrous and that I was totally misinterpreting Roy's opinion of Durkon's vampirism. Oh, and I was somehow a closet racist or something for even suggesting it. Yeah.

After that delightful (cough) conversation went down, its gratifying to have my interpretation of the strip validated.

Yes, well, there's still time for Durkon to say, "No thanks".

Roy's reaction at that should be telling. :smalleek: :smallwink:

[zimmerwald1915]

What's funny is that I argued this very thing in a previous thread and everyone reacted as if my opinion was ludicrous and that I was totally misinterpreting Roy's opinion of Durkon's vampirism. Oh, and I was somehow a closet racist or something for even suggesting it. Yeah.

After that delightful (cough) conversation went down, its gratifying to have my interpretation of the strip validated.
Now now, there's always the possibility that Roy is a closet racist.

This post comes with a free grain of salt. Take it, and go in peace.

[Gift Jeraff]

Now now, there's always the possibility that Roy is a closet racist.

Or a racist closet.

[oppyu]

The important thing is, this strip makes it clear that no matter what happens, Roy is going to get these crazy kids through the campaign mostly unscathed.

Or, this strip is the prelude to Rich announcing that he's the secret identity of Joss Whedon, kills Roy and all the other happy people in the party, and leaves us with the exciting adventures of Vaarsuvius, not-Durkon and Belkar trying to save the world and get over the emotionally devastating loss of Mr. Scruffy.

[multilis]

Without a railroaded plot (knowing future, etc)
1) V destroying large family of "black dragons"
2) Roy destroying a gate

Have similar potential for good or bad in epic scale, both involve risk of collateral damage/turning out to be horribly bad decisions. Roy knew the risks, he knew the good paladin kingdom had previously sent Miko to arrest OOTS for destroying a gate because of risk to fabric of universe.

Black dragons are "always evil" alignment, black dragons have power to potentially doom thousands, millions, enslave world, etc. So by chance overall may seem like "doing more good than evil" to kill black dragon family by logic of this universe. But like Roy's later action is epic gamble.

In both cases, may end up good, may end up overall bad depending on plot. Main difference could be claimed "motivation". But if so, then Miko consistently had "motivation of trying to save world" so was heroic?

[MadBear]

Or a racist closet.

or a closeted racist closet. (just thought I'd finish the loop for us :smalltongue:)

[Cerlis]

Agreed. I especially love the way V folds hir hands. S/he reminds me of a scared child who knows they did something really bad and have been caught by the principal or their parents, or told them, and they don't know what to do.

well more the adult version.

I mean V's there telling Roy the facts of what happened. Not excusing himself and honestly asking the only person he can trust to make the "right"decision about what should happen now.

Which is really big for someone who for most of the story attempted to solve any problem through force and rewriting reality without regard for what anyone else thinks.

I like to imagine 100 years later we have a V with hairs going gray who is snipping off snarky one liners about his "new" robes being covered in crap after he just used various epic spells he created in order to Irrigate an entire small town as well as add plumbing as one of the many ways she is going to attempt to repent for her actions over his long life.


So... Eugene was responsible for the death of his younger son? And he barely acknowledged it? (Or his response was to spoil his daughter?)

From the sounds of it, Roy was saying that he NEVER acknowledged that it was his fault. or even remotely. or that there was a slight possibility it might have been remotely his responsibility.

WHICH....

makes it sound like he either did, or a combination of A) just treated it like a freak accident or B) Blamed it on "the boy, he was suppose to watch him"

Which is really telling in regards to what we know about Roy.

Years ago, Roy was watching his brother. His brother got away from him and was killed in his father's explosion. His father either blamed Roy for negligence, or simply didnt take responsibility.

Thus did Roy become the "responsible father" in a family where both parents are still alive.

And now because of that failing of his father, he is trying to save the entire planet with only 4 things.

Skill with a Sword
Being able to take a hit.
Friends
and Epic Level Responsibility.

[Messenger]

From the sounds of it, Roy was saying that he NEVER acknowledged that it was his fault. or even remotely. or that there was a slight possibility it might have been remotely his responsibility.

WHICH....

makes it sound like he either did, or a combination of A) just treated it like a freak accident or B) Blamed it on "the boy, he was suppose to watch him"

Which is really telling in regards to what we know about Roy.

Years ago, Roy was watching his brother. His brother got away from him and was killed in his father's explosion. His father either blamed Roy for negligence, or simply didnt take responsibility.

Thus did Roy become the "responsible father" in a family where both parents are still alive.Massive credit to Roy but also why I question Eugene's alignment.

[Trillium]

Quite an interesting strip.

Also, nice Hobbit(tm) reference!

[RMS Oceanic]

So that's twice in one day (first being 836) where Roy has had cause to dwell on Eric. This was hinted at in 496, but seeing how it's molded Roy's views of responsibility is fascinating, and most certainly touching.

It's also nice that, for now at least, Vaarsuvius has not descended into melodrama. They know what happened, they acknowledge it, and all they seek is a way forward in future.

Also I never considered the Eric/Durkon parallel. That would explain why Roy broke down in 881: He failed again, because he wasn't there.

Pretty great strip. As for 945? I'd be interested in seeing Durkon interact with someone now, so we get a feel for how he sees the situation.

[Bulldog Psion]

It's a bit peculiar that anyone thinks Roy would go ballistic and/or throw V out of the Order over Familicide.

They are on a quest to save the world from either being utterly unmade, including the souls of every creature in it, or falling forever under the dominion of Xykon the Psychotic. Compared to that, killing even 25% of one species is, while horrific, pretty small potatoes.

And yes, the stakes are high enough for killing 25% of a species to be relatively insignificant. At least until things are resolved, that is.

"Yes, I'm going to kill everything and everyone in the world because I'm mad at you" would not be the choice of anyone sane, and Roy is both sane and a decent leader.

[Lombard]

Roy's foundational traits appear to be equal helpings of Guilt and Duty. It's like the Giant is channeling my mom.

[Porthos]

So that's twice in one day (first being 936) where Roy has had cause to dwell on Eric.

I believe you meant to type 836 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html) there. :smallsmile:

[zimmerwald1915]

And yes, the stakes are high enough for killing 25% of a species to be relatively insignificant. At least until things are resolved, that is.
Suddenly I'm reminded of the end of SilverClawShift's second campaign journal...

[Ridureyu]

This is one of the most real-seeming conversations in the comic.

Thumbs up!

[RMS Oceanic]

I believe you meant to type 836 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html) there. :smallsmile:

I don't know what you're talking about. *Steps in front of "Edited" tag* :smallsmile:

[Dracon1us]

Mr. Burlew, I owe you a lot.
for a really small price you gave me a whole bunch of friends.
THANK YOU
I hope your talent gets all the recognition they deserve :smallamused:

I'll follow Roy literaly trough Hell.
The world needs more Roys

[Porthos]

*Steps in front of "Edited" tag* :smallsmile:

So disappointed that a represenative of the Oceania government didn't make a Down the Memory Hole quip. :smalltongue:

[Cizak]

A wonderful strip. Just wonderful. It's so nice to see two people in fiction being able to sit down and talk when one of them has done something awful instead of just shouting and being angry at each other. And nice delve into Roy's psyche. When he went "I once knew a wizard", I went "Ooooh...". Really well done.

[kamuishirou]

Made me well up a little. I love it! I think I'll read it a few more times.

[ti'esar]

On the subject of Eugene, it's worth noting that virtually the only times we've seen him without Roy's POV filtering things are after his death, where (as I've argued before) he seems to have become a somewhat worse person. I don't think we can judge his life and moral character by his afterlife and some of his worst moments when alive.

I strongly suspect we won't see him get into Celestia in the end, though.


It's worth remembering that Roy is a pretty awesome dude. A lot of the time, the standardised good guy leaders end up being kind of boring. Cyclops (when he's not leading a militant mutant terror organisation), Leonardo, Superman. But Roy maintains the unimpeachable good guyness, remains funny, and is just... well, he's awesome. As displayed.

And yet, some people still to consider him boring.

This is one of the strips that leave me staring blankly at them.


Suddenly I'm reminded of the end of SilverClawShift's second campaign journal...

I'm intrigued. Where is this?

[Niknokitueu]

Interesting comic.

Kinda shows a lot of the motivations for each character. Also fits well with how I expected Roy to recieve the news that V had killed off about 1/4 of black dragons and everyone defending the latest gate. Accidently.

On the minus side, it does seem that V has a lot of making up to do.
On the plus side, it seems he will be (at least) making the effort to do so, and (also) has brought out all his dirty laundry.

:belkar: Wow. And Roy still gives me s*** about killing a couple of random peasants...

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[MoonCat]

Ohh.

Ohh, V, trying to make logic out of emotional backstory. Ohh, Roy, sharing that story. Ohh, adults talking reasonably to each other following a reveal of a major event. Ohh, the feels.

Ohh...'Ohh,' if it were actually a word, has now stopped looking like one.

[PsykoKnight]

Great Strip.


I think that Roy is talking about his afterlife expirences in panel #10. The part about tryin counts for a lot.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html

[afarrell]

This is great, and has me wanting a Giant-written Captain America comic.

[kailkay]

I don't think Eugene is not Lawful Good. There isn't enough first-hand evidence to point to it. For all we know, Roy's perception of him not even acknowledging that he is responsible for the death of Eric could be a false perception, or a transference of personal feelings of guilt.

Remember, Roy's mom didn't say Eugene is a bad guy, just very focused. I imagine the death of a child might make such a person draw even further inward and detach himself from events around him a bit more. And yeah, when he was a young man he swore a Blood Oath against Xykon, but we are all a little more idealistic in our youth, before we settle into being an adult, and raising a family, and so on and so forth.

Regarding why Roy hasn't booted V from the group: First, it is technically WAY beyond his faculties to dole out punishment on a scale as would probably be warranted against V. Second, friendship is a factor. Roy is intensely loyal to his friends. Part of being a good leader and a great friend in this case is to stand by them even during the dark times. This is why Roy is giving Durkon the chance to keep with them, even though he's all vampired-up. Third, his inner tactician is showing. He needs a spell caster, and it just so happens that V is an incredibly powerful one, so... even better.

Poor Roy. The entire desert arc has been one setback and disappointment after the next.

This is probably my favorite strip in the entire OOTS webcomic. It has inspired me to post on a comic's thread on this forum for the first time ever.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm intrigued. Where is this?
"The Second Tale" begins here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6401791&postcount=5). The bit I'm talking about is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6401889&postcount=15), under the heading "...Need Not Ever End." You'll recognize it.


Regarding why Roy hasn't booted V from the group: First, it is technically WAY beyond his faculties to dole out punishment on a scale as would probably be warranted against V.
V asked for, and thus consented to, Roy's judgment. That Roy declined to give it doesn't speak to his rights in the matter.

[Boogastreehouse]

It looks better with some space

It's funny; I was so drawn in by the believably of the characters, that I wasn't thinking of them as characters so much as I was thinking of them as people. People being people, and reacting to one another like people.

And what was it that pulled me out of that moment of immersion? My admiration for how so many established character elements and story details came together right now to make this scene so convincing.

In other words this scene was so good it distracted me from how good it was.


It looks better with some space

[Porthos]

I just caught something on a reread:

:roy:: You many never make it up to the one who died on your watch.
(my emphasis)

*thinks*
*dawning realization*

Oohhhhhhh!

For some reason I kept mentally reading that as ones not one. I don't know how I kept missing that.

Yeah. Just a wee little bit of projection there.

Poor Roy. :smallfrown:

[Liliet]

"Don't change the subject by trying to determine the actual subject!"
This reminds me of every forum discussion, ever :smallbiggrin: And yes, V, don't go off-topic! This is beside the point. This is a philosophical debate, and you are the one who wanted it to be, so abide by the rules! And the rules say that as long as the train of thought is traceable, the topic is whatever is being discussed right now, and the more things it is about, the better.

Aaaand booyeah!!!! I wanted this page so much :smallamused:
Now just to see Haley's reaction.

[endplanets]

Redemption is pointless from a meta perspective.
One should try to perform as much good as possible regardless of how much good/evil they have done in the past. Likewise it is not important why one is doing good (revenge, duty, redemption, etc), so long as they are doing good. One does not need a reason to be good (oh god that was cheesy).

And it is interesting to hear about the Greenhilt family again.

[HandofShadows]

Hmm . Almost feel like I wondered into a Bioshock Infinate discusion. :smallcool: GREAT PAGE.

[oppyu]

It's worth noting that from a utilitarian point of view, Vaarsuvius may have already redeemed hirself. V saved the Order from the New Western Order twice, where the only guaranteed survivor had V not intervened was Elan. If the Order led by Roy is capable of saving the world, and the Order led by Elan is not capable of saving the world, then V has inadvertently saved the world and should be hailed as one of the most morally pure heroes of all time.

All Hail Vaarsuvius!

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Massive credit to Roy but also why I question Eugene's alignment.
The following people from the comic are Lawful Good, or were Lawful Good when they were alive:
Roy
Eugene
Durkon (pre-vampirisation)
Kim Soon
Miko
O-Chul
Hinjo
Lien

Alignment isn't a rigid behaviour, it's a range of allowed behaviours, and you can easily be more Lawful than Good, or more Good than Lawful and still be classed as LG.

All it really affects at the end is which afterlife you get into - presumably Roy easily fulfilled the Good requirements for Celestia, but just scraped the Lawful part of them, and could potentially have wound up in the Twin Heavens/Bytopia (which sits between the LG Celestia and NG Elysium).

[The Pink Ninja]

Great comic, handled the complexity of the situation with grace.

[Itrogash]

Without a railroaded plot (knowing future, etc)
1) V destroying large family of "black dragons"
2) Roy destroying a gate

Have similar potential for good or bad in epic scale, both involve risk of collateral damage/turning out to be horribly bad decisions. Roy knew the risks, he knew the good paladin kingdom had previously sent Miko to arrest OOTS for destroying a gate because of risk to fabric of universe.

Black dragons are "always evil" alignment, black dragons have power to potentially doom thousands, millions, enslave world, etc. So by chance overall may seem like "doing more good than evil" to kill black dragon family by logic of this universe. But like Roy's later action is epic gamble.

In both cases, may end up good, may end up overall bad depending on plot. Main difference could be claimed "motivation". But if so, then Miko consistently had "motivation of trying to save world" so was heroic?

Are... are we really going to come back to this topic again? Come on, i've been reading #866 Discussion Thread all night, enough is enough.
I think Giant made it pretty clear that there are no "Always Evil" races in OOTSverse, as well as that "end justifies the means" is strictly set on the Evil side of alignment. End of story.

Huh, V comes clean. Something i've been waiting for in ages. I find Roy's speech pretty awesome. He really took to heart his death experience and made something good out of it.
I wonder if V will come clean to the rest too. Elan, Durkon and Haley count him as a friend, V might feel he should tell them and let them evaluate if they still want his friendship.
Also... I kinda hope for more Elan/V interaction regarding their parting in the previous book. The topic was pretty much ignored, we have seen Elan really angered after Kubota incident, there was some tension when Dark V came back, and then, after (s)he came back from the fight with Xykon we see their relationship steadily improving to the previous state. I guess that they either made amends off-screen on while travelling to the Western Continent or V've seen that Elan seemed to have forgiven him and it felt awkward to go back to the topic.
Still... I would like to see them talking about Kubota incident. V said pretty cruel things back then, i don't think the fact that Elan seems to have forgiven them justifies V keeping silent about them.

[b_jonas]

Do you think Varsaavius has told Roy about what Blackwing had seen through the rift?

[Red XIV]

And yeah, when he was a young man he swore a Blood Oath against Xykon, but we are all a little more idealistic in our youth, before we settle into being an adult, and raising a family, and so on and so forth.
And like Eugene told Right-Eye in Start of Darkness, devoting your life to vengeance is just a bad idea.

[TheBST]

Poor Roy. Keeps having to put things on the backburner to focus on saving the world.

Belkar's murders, the fall of Azure City, Tarquin's empires, Durkon's vampirism and now V committing mass-murder.

And putting them all aside for now is bound to screw him over at some point.

[Sith_Happens]

Hot damn. Here you go giving us a false sense of security with all these great punchlines the last few strips, and then... panel 8. Just, panel 8.

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/3419/197152-kencry2.jpg

[Killer Angel]

Here's a perfect reminder of some of the reasons, why Roy is probably my favourite character. :smallsmile:

[elros]

Wow! Nuance and character development, with additional backstory woven in skillfully? Pretty impressive writing for a web comic about a RPG (especially an out-of-date edition)!

[Anarion]

Ah, the real downside of being lawful good, and the upside all in one. Roy is wise and thoughtful because he has spent the majority of his life living in pain, holding himself to a standard they says HE could have prevented the things that went wrong under his watch.

I hope V picks up on the title of the comic because it really is important that they're taking about all three things. V needs to know that this is a hard road and that she may never feel redeemed.

[Neoriceisgood]

Timeless page. Scenes like this are really a solid reminder why I absolutely love OOTS.

[Lossoth]

Having been just been informed of mass death and upcoming demonic possessions, and mentally comparing it to both his family's loss and Durkon's death, and Roy still has the presence of mind to use "to whom", rather than "who to", in panel 5. Roy is the man.

And Rich is the man. I knew when I discovered this comic and did my first archive binge 18 months ago, that I'd found something really great. I had no idea how excellent Blood Runs... would turn out to be. Folks we have witnessed a masterpiece in the making. Bravo.

[Amphiox]

From a purely tactical consideration, expelling V from the Order makes vampire Durkon by far the most powerful member. V is needed for any contingency plans Roy might have in the event Durkon turns on them, or otherwise needs dealing with. Expelling V over Familicide in this situation would be Stupid Good, and Roy isn't stupid.

In the afterlife, Roy hinted the Eugene blamed him for Eric's death. The most likely scenario is that Eugene asked Roy to supervise his baby brother, but Roy was too young for that responsibility, Eric wandered off, got into the area where Eugene was working, and got involved in the accident.

[Link]

Great strip, Giant, and a good way to start the day.

[Lissibith]

Man. I saw who this page would be and expected to see some soul-searching by V. But instead, it was Roy laid bare, in a manner of speaking, and it hit so much harder for that.

I like that his first reaction is to just try to not think about the magnitude. It's so realistic. Having it laid out in front of him in a couple minutes like that, I can see where it would be overwhelming. And I also like that Roy seems to think that something on this scale isn't his to punish, or set punishment for. V needs to decide on how to atone on his own. That's part of the atonement, I think. Having to decide on your own when and if it's enough.

And finally, for a character that first joined the group because of Roy's intellect, I find it a nice touch that V specifies here that he wants Roy's advice because he respects Roy's integrity. I think that's a nearly perfect word to describe Roy.

[Amphiox]

What's funny is that I argued this very thing in a previous thread and everyone reacted as if my opinion was ludicrous and that I was totally misinterpreting Roy's opinion of Durkon's vampirism. Oh, and I was somehow a closet racist or something for even suggesting it. Yeah.


Neither you nor your position was accused of being racist, at least not by me. What was pointed out to you was that some of the arguments you used to support your position were problematic because they promoted the same kind of thinking that supports racism in other situations, and that the fictional situation in which the discussion was taking place had been constructed, since probably its very beginnings, deep in time, in a way that enabled and even encouraged people to engage in such thinking in a guilt and consequence-free manner, which as also a problematic thing.

[Ghost Nappa]

Great comic, handled the complexity of the situation with grace.

QFT. I love the in-comic discussion of familicide is far more mature and nuanced then some of our discussions on the same subject.

The unknown number of unidentifiable victims across an unknowable area of land statement, and the "keep trying" statement are both really good.

Roy for Philosopher ... uhh...next comic election year.

[I.care.0]

This was beautifull.

I cannot articulate myself correctly, because I just HAD to backtrack and see Eric's introduction again, and as always, that left me almost crying, with a giant stupid smile on my face, and a non-completely-functional brain, but I wanted to tell you that these moments are what make OOTS one of the best stories I have ever read/seen in any medium.

It may or may not be just the effect of the aforementioned strip, that unfortunately, was released before I began reading, robbing me the opportunity to speak about thit in the appropriate time, but I wanted to thank you for telling this tale. All of it.

Long live the giant!

[Psyren]

I can't figure if it's his father or a younger Roy still not set on being a fighter...

Given Roy's childhood (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) I don't think there was ever a moment he wasn't set on being a fighter. And given he never got past cantrips I doubt he was doing any research either.

[Shale]

That's not how I expected Roy to approach the situation at all (well, the first couple of panels, yes, the parallel with Eric and Durkon, not so much), but it's a really good character moment for him.

[ti'esar]

QFT. I love the in-comic discussion of familicide is far more mature and nuanced then some of our discussions on the same subject.

Not to take away from the strip, but that's really really easy.

[Oko and Qailee]

I feel really bad for Roy. Just so much stuff happened in such little time.

[davidbofinger]

Stepping away from the five billionth rehash of V's Deeds, was anyone else struck by the "And our cleric is in the shop" comment?

IMO, it shows that whatever Roy thinks about Durkon (letting him stay in the party, helping his situation) he isn't exactly blind to the fact that this isn't the exact same Durkon who used to be walking next to him for years.

On the other hand, it suggests he thinks Durkon is still Durkon. If he thought Durkon was someone else now he'd be more likely to say, "Our new cleric isn't the person I'd ask for moral advice."

I'd say he's thinking of Durkon the way he thought of Belkar when he was drained, or Vaarsuvius in lizard form: there's something wrong with my colleague that needs to be fixed, but they are still who they were before. Which might be how Haley thought of Roy while he was dead.

Durkon planned to resurrect Malak so probably he expects Roy to intend the same. It'll be interesting to see how Durkon handles that.

[Jay R]

Wow. That was genuinely moving. Really, really well done, Rich.

[This strip is so human that I can't bring myself to say "Giant" in this context.]

[klarg1]

Great comic, handled the complexity of the situation with grace.

I couldn't agree more. This was an unusually serious strip for OOTS, and handled a lot of complex story elements in a graceful and nuanced way.

Thank you, giant.

[RadagastTheBrow]

Holy... That was handled well. Thank you, Mr. Burlew.

[pendell]

Yes. I am very pleased with this strip also, although my advice would be slightly different from Roy Greenshield's. Thank you, Sir Giant, for a thoughtful strip.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ivrytwr]

I sympathize for Roy. He is in way over his pay grade.
A remorseful V, a sympathetic/horrified/concerned Roy, a little of what happened to Eric.
A definite slowing of pace, but it has been a very busy comic-day.


Thanks Giant.

[Der_DWSage]

First:I absolutely loved this comic. It was well done, and didn't fall into any...I want to say 'easy stereotypes' of what would normally happen. No blind acceptance, no anger and spite, just two people over their heads as they try to peace together where their life has gone. Roy immediately going for the tactics portions of things really struck true to me, as that's how he's been handling all his problems as of late.

Second:To all the people that are talking about Eugene never accepting Eric's death. I think you might be a little too harsh on the man. He's still a jerk and a pompous old windbag, but he's also incredibly, incredibly bad at showing his emotion and how he cares for those he loves. He doesn't 'do' emotion easily, just sarcasm and spite.

It's very likely that he felt horrible every day about Eric's death, but he never showed that where Roy, a child at the time, could see it. And if Roy had it in his young mind that his father didn't care about Eric's death...well, Eugene seems like the type to give all kinds of false positives towards that effect, when it's more likely he just didn't want to show weakness.

Maybe I'm wrong, and Eugene really did blame Roy for it. Or he never felt it was his fault for killing a toddler. But, I dunno. Both of those things seem like they would've gotten Eugene a stay in a different afterlife, or at least a sterner look than he got at the end of Start of Darkness.

[Jay R]

Would you mind pointing it out? Because I don't see any actual advice in the strip. The point of the strip is that there is no advice anyone can give.

In an early episode of The Big Bang Theory, Penny turned to Sheldon for advice on a dating matter. (I know, I know. Work with me here.) Sheldon used an analogy with Schrödinger's cat, but first he had to spend five minutes explaining what Schrödinger's cat actually was.

Later, Leonard asks for advice on the same issue, and Sheldon simply said, "Schrödinger's cat." That was enough for Leonard, who is in fact a genius.

So is Vaarsuvius. Roy didn't fill in the blanks for V, because he didn't have to.

The complete advice is this: "This is way over my head. I can't analyze it. But I know you need to keep trying. That's important. Continue to care. Continue to know that you screwed up. Continue to keep trying. You may never atone for what happened in the past, but today you can't change how good or bad your actions were in the past. Today you can only determine how good or bad your actions are today. That won't make it up to the ones who died on your watch in the past. But it will prevent more from dying on your watch in the future.

"Never forget or deny what you have done before. But do the best you can today. Not because it will change what you have done in the past, but because it will change what you do in the future.

"Your ultimate fate is in a box, which is not yet opened. You can't open it now to see if the cat is dead or alive. All you can do is try to feed the cat."


I will say, bound as I am by my previous statements on the matter, that I'm disappointed that Roy is letting V stay with the party.

First of all, not letting V stay with the party and keep trying would be completely opposed to the advice of "keep trying. That's important."

Secondly, remember that Roy's immediate reaction is this strip was purely tactical. The issue at hand is saving the world. Roy turning down the aid of the most powerful wizard he knows would put the world more at risk, possible destroying every single person in it. It (potentially) risks killing far more people than Vaarsuvius's Familicide spell.

[SamVimes]

Long time reader here, finally decided to register in the forum... English is not my main language, so please forgive me for making (hopefully) occassional spelling and/or grammar errors.

V's situation did remind me of the characters Teal'c and Tomin from Stargate-SG1. They both commited horribly cruel acts on innocent people, nothing less than mass murder and beating many people into slavery. They did see most of their victims, which is different from V's problem, but all three of them are fighting for redemption. Teal'c and Tomin both commited their atrocities because they were in service of different evil Alien races who made their servants think, they were Gods and all infidels should die or become slaves, which is also different from V's Situation.

The motivation from V was completely different, (s)he was driven by pure revenge and a total loss of reluctance because of the splice, but it's not the act or the motivation behind the act, but the way of rehabilitaion, which matters here and which is kind of similar to all three.

Here is a quote from a conversation, which Tomin, who was considering suicide because he realized what a monster he became, and Teal'c, who had his personal change of way much sooner, had in the movie "The Arc of Truth":



Teal'c: Nothing I have done since turning against the goa'uld will make up for the atrocities I once committed in their name. Somewhere deep inside you you knew it was wrong, a voice you did not recognize screamed for you to stop. You saw no way out, it was the way things were, they could not be changed. You're trying to convince yourself the people you're hurting deserved it. You became numb to their pain and suffering, you learned to shut out the voice speaking against it.

Tomin: There's always a choice.

Teal'c: Indeed there is.

Tomin: I chose to ignore it.

Teal'c: Yet you sit here now.

Tomin: I sit here, and I cannot imagine the day when I will forgive myself.

Teal'c: Because it will never come. One day others may try to convince you they have forgiven you, that is more about them than you. For them, imparting forgiveness is a blessing.

Tomin: How do you go on?

Teal'c: It is simple. You will never forgive yourself. Accept it. You hurt others, many others, that cannot be undone. You will never find personal retribution, but your life does not have to end. That which is right, just and true can still prevail. If you do not fight for what you believe in all may be lost for everyone else. But do not fight for yourself, fight for others, others that may be saved through your effort. That is the least you can do.



I find Teal'Cs point of view much similar to the advice of Roy. V should never give up, trying to redeem hirself. Even if it will never be enough, it could not make hir situation worse by just trying.

[Jay R]

:belkar:: Can't we go back to dealing with your daddy issues? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0916.html)
You're welcome, Belkar.


I see a certain amount of logic failure in a small event being "good" or "ok", but if scaled up then suddenly flips to "bad".

It's not a question of scaling up; it's a question of killing non-involved innocents.

The familicide cannot be directly compared to fireballing a bunch of trolls. It would be more accurate to compare it to fireballing a bunch of trolls who are holding innocent captives.


Stepping away from the five billionth rehash of V's Deeds, was anyone else struck by the "And our cleric is in the shop" comment?

I think you're trying to get too much stew from one oyster.

Normally, one would take a moral quandary to the cleric. But right now, the cleric is Evil. One does not intentionally take moral advice from somebody who is Evil (even if he is "not any more'n Belkar").

[Ajema]

Anyone else thinking that in panel 8/9 Roy is realizing that maybe he is the one who has never accepted that it was an accident and that he needs to forgive Eugene?

Eugene deserving it or not is another thing but Der_DWSage had a good point a few posts previous. Eugene seems the type to try to avoid pain with snarkiness and acting like he doesn't care. Not a healthy behavior but not an uncommon one either.

[happycrow]

"I just hit things."

And yet, his grammar is impeccable.

[Mighty]

Backstoryrific!

[Shivore]

Great strip! Though it does lead me wondering just what V did or did not tell Roy. Does Roy know about the divorce papers? Does he know Xykon saw V and may have a reason to recognize him now? Does Roy know about Quarr's role in this? About Blackwing and the rift?

Lots of questions still... did you guys think V told the whole story or just the immediately relevant pieces?

[Martok]

Wow, really well-done strip. Really moving for eleven panels, and then the twelfth got a huge laugh out of me.
+1

A very well-written strip, even compared to Rich's usual standards. Roy has always been my favorite character (at least out of the six OOTS members), and this strip highlights why that is.

[Breccia]

Well, let's see: Roy can either beat his head on a philosophical wall on how do deal with V, an extremely powerful asset trying to save the remaining millions/billions of souls in the Prime Plane with even greater motivation than before

OR

he could choose to postpone the morals and ethics and deal with the very real problem at hand.

And Roy goes straight into damage control mode. Pragmatism at its finest, right there.

[HendoJ]

And now because of that failing of his father, he is trying to save the entire planet with only 4 things.

Skill with a Sword
Being able to take a hit.
Friends
and Epic Level Responsibility.

The first two notwithstanding; there are far worse toolkits to have available when facing adversity.

[Gwynfrid]

I love the in-comic discussion of familicide is far more mature and nuanced then some of our discussions on the same subject.

So true. Rich vs entire forum : Rich wins, not even a contest :smallbiggrin:

Also, characterization in this strip: Absolutely superb, OOTS at its finest. Hats off.

[avariel]

Echoes of another bald leader...

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Survivors_(episode)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7SxT3fTRYw

[SavageWombat]

Considering that we don't know Eugene's side of the story:

What if his reaction to the accident and Roy's anguish was "Roy, don't blame yourself - it was an accident"? What if his primary worry was keeping Roy from blaming himself? And Roy the Responsible instead became focused on "if it wasn't my fault, who's fault was it?"

It'd be interesting to see the conversation where Eugene reveals that he's been beating himself up over that for twenty years, but couldn't let on "for the boy".

/I know, seems a little out of character. But interesting.

[Martichoras]

A wonderful strip, thoughtful, humane and with a great punchline.

Also, regarding the lawful good ethos, redemption is a rare and special thing, after all. It is not for everyone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html).

[Math_Mage]

Well, let's see: Roy can either beat his head on a philosophical wall on how do deal with V, an extremely powerful asset trying to save the remaining millions/billions of souls in the Prime Plane with even greater motivation than before

OR

he could choose to postpone the morals and ethics and deal with the very real problem at hand.

And Roy goes straight into damage control mode. Pragmatism at its finest, right there.
Maybe that was his first reaction, but most of the strip is about the morals and ethics, so...

[Porthos]

Do you think Varsaavius has told Roy about what Blackwing had seen through the rift?


Lots of questions still... did you guys think V told the whole story or just the immediately relevant pieces?

V already told Roy about what Blackwing saw in the rift. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html)

Considering that we don't know Eugene's side of the story:

What if his reaction to the accident and Roy's anguish was "Roy, don't blame yourself - it was an accident"? What if his primary worry was keeping Roy from blaming himself? And Roy the Responsible instead became focused on "if it wasn't my fault, who's fault was it?"

Whoa whoa whoa. While I'm all for hearing Eugene's side of the story, let's not forget that Roy blames Eugene principally for not listening to Roy's warnings. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html)

Whether that is really what happened is more or less irrelevant. That was the final wedge between them. If Eugene had said something as simple as "I should have listened to you," things might have been radically different.

Now why didn't Eugene say that? Dunno. Probably wracked with his own guilt. But for the purposes of the comic, that too is more or less irrelevant because how things impact Roy (and the rest of the Order) is what the comic is dwelling on, not the secret thoughts of some C-list characters.

Might be nice to see just what he was/is thinking about all of this. But OotS isn't the type of story that gives us the PoV of all of the characters. Which is another difference between it and a certain series from GRRM that it keeps getting compared to. :smalltongue:

[commander panda]

did....
did roy just imply he accidentally killed his little brother?!!:smalleek:

EDIT: or eugene. that would make sense too.

[Kish]

did....
did roy just imply he accidentally killed his little brother?!!:smalleek:
Roy is a wizard?!

No, Roy just implied that Eugene accidentally killed Roy's little brother.

[commander panda]

roy assumedly attempted magic in the past. but the empirical research part does make more sense for eugene, missed that the first time reading.

[Shale]

Also there was that time Roy said Eric died in an accident and it was Eugene's (or some other adult in the house, with Eugene also present, I guess) fault. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html)

[SamVimes]

did....
did roy just imply he accidentally killed his little brother?!!:smalleek:

EDIT: or eugene. that would make sense too.

It was my first thought too... Roy is very intelligent, seems to has ranks in Spellcraft or Knowlegde(Arcana) (not entirely sure about the rules here...) and his hesitation in the speech he gives to V could suggest, that he had an active role in this accident.

But it would really not fit into Roys personality. He adores other Single-Class Fighters and never even gave the slightest hint of having any arcane spellcasting abilities. Also, for an accident of this magnitude he must've had at least a few ranks of a spellcasting class to be able to commit such an amount of destruction. Nothing in his whole behaviour supports him having spellcasting abilities.

Well, it could be his most well hidden secret, but Roy always seems straight forward, so I highly doubt it.

Also, it would push his combat effectiveness into the nether regions... Or he must be of a well higher level than we thought to compensate all those Wizard-Levels, which are entirely useless as long as he is wearing his armor. Imagine the turmoil in the Geekery-Thread... :smallbiggrin:

[Yoyoyo]

Giant, I think this is one of the best, most poignant strips you have ever written. Roy's inability to comprehend the wrong that V has done, and that he ultimately tries to understand it by viewing it through the prism of his own personal tragedy and the way that he has coped with that guilt, felt very true and real. You make me laugh on a regular basis and I am thrilled by the action scenes, but these "serious" moments between your richly drawn characters are my favorites. You continue to do remarkable work here. Bravo.

[Porthos]

It was my first thought too... Roy is very intelligent, seems to has ranks in Spellcraft or Knowlegde(Arcana) (not entirely sure about the rules here...) and his hesitation in the speech he gives to V could suggest, that he had an active role in this accident.

The 'active role' Roy feels blame for is not convincing Eugene that things were dangerous. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html)

As for the rest? It wouldn't surprise me to find out that he had a rank in Knowledge (Arcana). But actively harboring a spellcasting class? Not. A. Chance. In. Hell.

Mostly because of four words: Lack. Of. Feather. Fall. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html) :smalltongue:

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Oh, this strip hit me right in the gut.

V told about Familicide, Roy told about his brother...

[SamVimes]

The 'active role' Roy feels blame for is not convincing Eugene that things were dangerous. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html)

As for the rest? It wouldn't surprise me to find out that he had a rank in Knowledge (Arcana). But actively harboring a spellcasting class? Not. A. Chance. In. Hell.

Mostly because of four words: Lack. Of. Feather. Fall. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html) :smalltongue:Just to be clear: I never really suggested that Roy had spellcasting abilities. I was just saying that my first thought went into that direction.

On the other hand: The main reason for him not casting Feather Fall could be his armor. Arcane Spell Failure on heavy armor is really high and falling down at a deadly velocity seems not supporting high rolls on a concentrate check... :smalltongue:

Just kidding, Roy is very clearly a single-classed fighter. Nothing supports any other assumptions.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Or a racist closet.

This fanfic needs to be written. NOW.

[Throknor]

roy assumedly attempted magic in the past. but the empirical research part does make more sense for eugene, missed that the first time reading.

Panel 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) Roy was heading towards being a fighter while his brother was alive, so he didn't switch from following his father to not because of the accident. Though considering panel 5 as well his mother may have intentionally pushed him that way. Granted panel 9 implies he did study at least a little, but that could just be the classic father-pushes-son-to-follow-and-is-blind-that-he-doesn't story. Put together with the prequels and the rift between them becomes more evident.

[Cynric]

The Giant should teach a course on solid but concise character development. This is another masterful page that explains so much without overloading the plot. Kudos, Giant.

[cybishop]

Great strip! Though it does lead me wondering just what V did or did not tell Roy. Does Roy know about the divorce papers? Does he know Xykon saw V and may have a reason to recognize him now? Does Roy know about Quarr's role in this? About Blackwing and the rift?

Lots of questions still... did you guys think V told the whole story or just the immediately relevant pieces?

It's impossible to say for sure, but I'd guess he told Roy everything he thinks is relevant.

We already know V. thinks the rift is relevant. They tried to tell Roy about that in the middle of the fight. I can't imagine why they would have left it out here.

Blackwing saw the rift while V. was fighting Xykon. If V. talks about the rift, it would be very hard to avoid mentioning how they know about it. They could maybe have evaded the issue, but I don't see why they would. It's possible that Roy has the impression that the entire fight took place invisibly, or too far apart for Xykon to recognize V. on sight, but it seems very unlikely.

We know from this strip that Roy knows about Familicide. It seems likely that V. would have mentioned why he chose to cast it - to avenge a threat to his family - and how V.'s spouse reacted to seeing it. It's possible that V. didn't mention the divorce for some reason, but I don't see why they would leave it out; this entire strip is about V. confessing to things.

V. might not have talked in detail about Qarr. Just an imp, just the agent of the bad guys, and V. doesn't think of Qarr as much of a threat, judging by # 884 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0884.html). But then again, Qarr summoned that huge demon way back on the island with the Azurites. But on the third hand, that was a long time ago and V. wasn't thinking straight then. So maybe they went into detail about Qarr, but then again maybe they didn't. If not, Roy would not know of any specific reasons to distrust the next imp he meets. But I assume he's already aware that an imp isn't trustworthy.

[Shale]

V already told Roy about Blackwing looking through the rift, back in the fight with Tarquin's army. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html)

[Knight.Anon]

It sounds like Eugene has the worst kind of skeleton in his closet. Another take is Roy has a level in Sorc or Wiz that he will never never use.

What makes me doubt Eugene did it was that he was an illusionist. Also it gives Roy more depth, and makes his relationships with his brother and father have more depth. It also makes his death by Xykon more ironic, assuming that Roy could have had the spell that could have saved him memorized.

[zimmerwald1915]

So is Vaarsuvius. Roy didn't fill in the blanks for V, because he didn't have to.
Didn't V ask him to "fill in the blanks," as it were? That indicates to me that she felt he had to.


First of all, not letting V stay with the party and keep trying would be completely opposed to the advice of "keep trying. That's important."
How is staying with the party necessary for V to "keep trying?" How is it even helpful? I notice in your block quote that there is no specific act or acts that V must or even should do, and no specific acts from which she must refrain. In that moral universe, the name of the action doesn't matter. Only the quality of the action. Nothing V can do while staying with the party will necessarily be "better" or worse than anything she could do outside it, and vice versa. If the goal is to "keep trying," and "trying" doesn't imply anything in particular, staying with the party or not is irrelevant. Other considerations take over. Which leads to...


Secondly, remember that Roy's immediate reaction is this strip was purely tactical. The issue at hand is saving the world. Roy turning down the aid of the most powerful wizard he knows would put the world more at risk, possible destroying every single person in it. It (potentially) risks killing far more people than Vaarsuvius's Familicide spell.
Do note that Roy never reached a conclusion about the tactical implications. Granted, he didn't get much time to think about them, but the one thing he does know is that V is an unreliable asset and that her unreliability spikes in critical situations. An asset that can't be relied on to contribute in critical situations is a dangerous, even poisoned, asset. It is possible that this tactical problem is insoluble.

On the other hand, if it is soluble, that only proves that the party can function tactically without V. This in turn proves that V is not necessary to the success of the Order's mission, which finally leads to the conclusion that there is no overriding tactical reason to keep V with the party.

As for power, it's not like Roy has a problem turning down powerful allies if they prove morally problematic. He recently led the Order through a gauntlet to do just that.

The only reason I can see for Roy to keep V around is because he likes having her around. Thor knows why. Maybe having a powerful wizard look up to him makes him feel like he got one better on Eugene. Maybe he likes the way she strokes his ego. Maybe...er, these turns of phrase are making me uncomfortable. I'll stop now.

[Kish]

What makes me doubt Eugene did it was that he was an illusionist.
More words needed; are you implying that an illusionist would automatically have every school barred that would involve potentially lethal-to-a-small-child empirical research?

(Actually, if we pretend Rich put any thought at all into Eugene's barred schools, Roy commented in OtOoPCs that one is Divination and the only other one it makes sense for an illusionist with Divination barred to bar is Necromancy.)

3.0ed went by power tiers for schools for specialist wizards. Conjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation were first-tier; to specialize in one of them, you needed to bar either:
1) A first-tier school.
2) Two second-tier schools.
3) Both third-tier schools and one second-tier school.

Illusion, Abjuration, and Enchantment were second-tier; to specialize in one of them, you needed to bar either:
1) A first or second-tier school.
2) Both third-tier schools.

Divination and Necromancy were third-tier. To specialize in one of them, you needed to bar:
1) Any one school.

Eugene was an illusionist, and needed to bar either a first or second-tier school, or both third-tier schools. He also had Divination barred. If he had barred any other school except Necromancy, there would have been no need for him to bar Divination.

[theNater]

Sooooo gooood.:smallsmile:

Yeah, it was. Turned out to be a bad reading of the strip in question, didn't it?
If you want to reduce the number of errors of that nature, you could reconsider your policy of trying to read everything so that Vaarsuvius is portrayed in the worst possible light.

What's funny is that I argued this very thing in a previous thread and everyone reacted as if my opinion was ludicrous and that I was totally misinterpreting Roy's opinion of Durkon's vampirism.
I don't remember exactly the position you were holding, but I do recall that at least one person was suggesting that Roy's intent to fix Durkon should override Durkon's wishes on the matter. That is wrong enough to be worth arguing against with great passion.

It's worth noting that from a utilitarian point of view, Vaarsuvius may have already redeemed hirself.
I'm not sure why that's worth noting, as neither D&D 3e nor OotS are based on a utilitarian point of view.

V needs to know that this is a hard road and that she may never feel redeemed.
Those walking this road rarely do, if they're doing it right.

It's worth remembering that Roy is a pretty awesome dude. A lot of the time, the standardised good guy leaders end up being kind of boring. Cyclops (when he's not leading a militant mutant terror organisation), Leonardo, Superman.
When written well, Superman is very reminiscent of Roy. I can't be sure about the others, but it wouldn't surprise me if the case was also true with them.

Writing such characters is surprisingly difficult. That the Giant is able to write Roy so well speaks to his great skill.

V asked for, and thus consented to, Roy's judgment. That Roy declined to give it doesn't speak to his rights in the matter.
Word choice is important, especially with Vaarsuvius. V mentions asking for Roy's counsel, and asks for Roy's opinion. Neither of those is the same as Roy's judgement.

Personally, I think this shows responsibility on V's part. Rather than simply dumping the task of identifying and inflicting an appropriate punishment on Roy, V is attempting to get Roy's help in identifying one, presumably with the intent of self-inflicting it.

[Kish]

I'm not sure why that's worth noting, as neither D&D 3e nor OotS are based on a utilitarian point of view.
Yeah...as I commented in another thread, from a utilitarian point of view Nale is the biggest hero in the comic. He destroyed a vampire who had a plan and the power to convert an entire continent into an abattoir; no other character in the comic has come anywhere close to a Good accomplishment of that magnitude.

[Knight.Anon]

Looks like V finally dropped the F-Bomb on Roy.

[RMS Oceanic]

Yeah...as I commented in another thread, from a utilitarian point of view Nale is the biggest hero in the comic. He destroyed a vampire who had a plan and the power to convert an entire continent into an abattoir; no other character in the comic has come anywhere close to a Good accomplishment of that magnitude.

Well to be fair, Soon Kim came close to vanquishing a Lich Sorcerer and Goblin Cleric with the potential to conquer the world. :smalltongue:

[commander panda]

But it would really not fit into Roys personality. He adores other Single-Class Fighters and never even gave the slightest hint of having any arcane spellcasting abilities. Also, for an accident of this magnitude he must've had at least a few ranks of a spellcasting class to be able to commit such an amount of destruction. Nothing in his whole behaviour supports him having spellcasting abilities.

he certainly doesn't have wizard ranks, that would be so against what we know of him up to this point, its not even funny. however, i think you might be overestimating the magnitude of the accident. we know that, even for someone who dedicates all their time to it, it takes many years of practice before you can cast even a cantrip. a level one wizard knows all cantrips in the book, and can cast them reliably, so it stands to reason that someone should be able to attempt a couple of cantrips unreliably without having spellcaster ranks.
we know roy tried his hand at magic before he made the decision to singal class, and a cantrip like ray of frost could easily kill a toddler, so its certainly possible that he was responsible.

but do i think thats the case? nope:smalltongue:.

[zimmerwald1915]

Word choice is important, especially with Vaarsuvius. V mentions asking for Roy's counsel, and asks for Roy's opinion. Neither of those is the same as Roy's judgement.
Taken together, in the context of the scene, counsel, which implies direction and advice, and opinion, which implies a moral stance, amount to judgment. V wants Roy to give her morally-sound (the opinion) advice (the counsel) on the actions she should take in the future, and intends for that advice to bind her (the context of the scene).

[cybishop]

More words needed; are you implying that an illusionist would automatically have every school barred that would involve potentially lethal-to-a-small-child empirical research?

(Actually, if we pretend Rich put any thought at all into Eugene's barred schools, Roy commented in OtOoPCs that one is Divination and the only other one it makes sense for an illusionist with Divination barred to bar is Necromancy.)

3.0ed went by power tiers for schools for specialist wizards. Conjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation were first-tier; to specialize in one of them, you needed to bar either:
1) A first-tier school.
2) Two second-tier schools.
3) Both third-tier schools and one second-tier school.

Illusion, Abjuration, and Enchantment were second-tier; to specialize in one of them, you needed to bar either:
1) A first or second-tier school.
2) Both third-tier schools.

Divination and Necromancy were third-tier. To specialize in one of them, you needed to bar:
1) Any one school.

Eugene was an illusionist, and needed to bar either a first or second-tier school, or both third-tier schools. He also had Divination barred. If he had barred any other school except Necromancy, there would have been no need for him to bar Divination.

I'm not that familiar with D&D and don't have OtOoPCs in front of me, but this is confusing. Scrying is divination, right? We've seen Eugene scrying dozens of times. Either we've found a dreaded continuity error, or it's possible to change what one's barred schools are in the OotS-verse, or Roy was wrong about his father's barred schools. (Or joking, or lying, or misled, what makes sense in context?)

[CoffeeIncluded]

Another thing, and compare it to all the family arguments that have been happening this entire book:

This whole time, when V realized the enormity of the evil s/he did, s/he could have deflected it. V could have said, "It's not my fault! It's not my fault, I'm not to blame, I did it all just to protect my family! It's not my fault!" S/he could have done that at any time, especially right now when confessing to the leader.

V never did. S/he took complete responsibility for it. All of it. And like I said before, I don't think V's accepting judgment from Roy here so much as s/he's going, "Help me, I did something terrible and I don't know what to do to make it right."

[Angralad]

This comic never ceases to amaze me, both in the quality of its drawing (and with stick figures no less!) and the quality of its story telling.

I love how you can tell these two are friends who respect each other and care for each other. Each is unsure of what to do with the information shared and it's so well drawn you can easily tell that they're both going through a difficult thing.

I love how you can see the conflict in Roy. What would I do if my best friend confessed to having done something like what V's done? Or if this was my sister or one of my parents? Would any of them be monsters now? Do I judge them and strike them down? Do I even have a right to do that, even as a Lawful Good character? Or do I acknowledge this and try to offer my support in helping atone for the atrocity? Can that even be done? In the end Roy is just a guy, a very compassionate good guy with too much on his hands in terms of responsibility, both physical and moral.

This comic is a pleasure to read.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm not that familiar with D&D and don't have OtOoPCs in front of me, but this is confusing. Scrying is divination, right? We've seen Eugene scrying dozens of times. Either we've found a dreaded continuity error, or it's possible to change what one's barred schools are in the OotS-verse, or Roy was wrong about his father's barred schools. (Or joking, or lying, or misled, what makes sense in context?)

Well, it can be explained that Eugene gained access to Divination magic when the world converted, because Divination cannot be barred in 3.5.

[orrion]

How is staying with the party necessary for V to "keep trying?" How is it even helpful? I notice in your block quote that there is no specific act or acts that V must or even should do, and no specific acts from which she must refrain. In that moral universe, the name of the action doesn't matter. Only the quality of the action. Nothing V can do while staying with the party will necessarily be "better" or worse than anything she could do outside it, and vice versa. If the goal is to "keep trying," and "trying" doesn't imply anything in particular, staying with the party or not is irrelevant. Other considerations take over. Which leads to...


Technically, it isn't.

V did an act of great evil. One of the things that could balance out the scales are acts of great good. Saving the world usually qualifies.

Is that necessarily valid? I don't know for sure, but it's certainly a possibility that may have occurred to V given that the universe largely appears to run on a scale.

[allenw]

I'm not that familiar with D&D and don't have OtOoPCs in front of me, but this is confusing. Scrying is divination, right? We've seen Eugene scrying dozens of times. Either we've found a dreaded continuity error, or it's possible to change what one's barred schools are in the OotS-verse, or Roy was wrong about his father's barred schools. (Or joking, or lying, or misled, what makes sense in context?)

We've seen Eugene using a Epic-level scrying pool built by Celestials. We haven't seen him cast any Divination spells himself. That being said, his making fun of Roy for not being able to make the pool work is kind of odd, considering that Eugene shouldn't have had any pre-death experience with Scrying either. Although I think even a Divination-barred wizard could still have used a crystal ball...

[RadagastTheBrow]

did....
did roy just imply he accidentally killed his little brother?!!:smalleek:

EDIT: or eugene. that would make sense too.

Roy accidentally killed Eugene!? The horror! You'd think something like that would have been brought up by now. :P

[Kish]

Technically, it isn't.

V did an act of great evil. One of the things that could balance out the scales are acts of great good. Saving the world usually qualifies.

Is that necessarily valid? I don't know for sure, but it's certainly a possibility that may have occurred to V given that the universe largely appears to run on a scale.
So, hypothetically speaking. Redcloak concludes that he can't give control of the Snarl to the Dark One, but he also finds a way to destroy the current world, and moves to do so in accordance with his Plan B (letting the Dark One be part of making the next world).

Xykon, who likes this world because some of his best evil took place there and who also would be destroyed along with the world, stops Redcloak.

What alignment is Xykon after that, would you say?

If he's still Chaotic Evil, how far toward Chaotic Neutral has he been moved, in kilonazis?

[SavageWombat]

So, hypothetically speaking. Redcloak concludes that he can't give control of the Snarl to the Dark One, but he also finds a way to destroy the current world, and moves to do so in accordance with his Plan B (letting the Dark One be part of making the next world).

Xykon, who likes this world because some of his best evil took place there and who also would be destroyed along with the world, stops Redcloak.


Hey, it worked for Darth Vader. Save your son's life, go to Jedi Heaven.

[zimmerwald1915]

Technically, it isn't.

V did an act of great evil. One of the things that could balance out the scales are acts of great good. Saving the world usually qualifies.

Is that necessarily valid? I don't know for sure, but it's certainly a possibility that may have occurred to V given that the universe largely appears to run on a scale.
But neither Roy nor JayR makes any mention of magnitude of acts. JayR only makes mention of quality of acts and consistency in performing acts of certain quality.

[Kish]

I really didn't need the image of a spectral Xykon standing around a fire with Eugene and Soon in the last panel of the comic.

[Shale]

Drinking force-coffee, giving back a spectral Master Fyron his crown back...

[Jay R]

How is staying with the party necessary for V to "keep trying?"

:vaarsuvius::Now can we PLEASE resume saving the world? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html)


Do note that Roy never reached a conclusion about the tactical implications. Granted, he didn't get much time to think about them, but the one thing he does know is that V is an unreliable asset and that her unreliability spikes in critical situations.

It's not true that he only knows one thing. Other things he knows are that it can only happen twice more, and that it has a limited, and known, duration.


An asset that can't be relied on to contribute in critical situations is a dangerous, even poisoned, asset. It is possible that this tactical problem is insoluble.

Sometimes my car is in the shop. Sometimes my computer freezes up. It's just not true that an asset that sometimes isn't available is either dangerous or poisoned.


On the other hand, if it is soluble, that only proves that the party can function tactically without V. This in turn proves that V is not necessary to the success of the Order's mission, which finally leads to the conclusion that there is no overriding tactical reason to keep V with the party.

A tactical situation is not binary. It is simply not true that Vaarsuvius is either always available or totally useless.

Roy needs to lean on Vaarsuvius for preparation, but be ready to function without her at (only two) crucial moments. Among other things, that means that Haley, not Vaarsuvius, should carry all the wands. It also means trying to slow things down any time V disappears suddenly. Vaarsuvius is no longer an "at-will" asset. But "once per encounter" or "once per day" assets are still assets.


As for power, it's not like Roy has a problem turning down powerful allies if they prove morally problematic. He recently led the Order through a gauntlet to do just that.

Again, "prove morally problematic" is not a binary function. Tarquin is not an acceptable ally because he will ignore the party's goals and eventually betray the supposed leader. Durkon, Belkar, and Vaarsuvius are acceptable because they will serve the party's goals.


The only reason I can see for Roy to keep V around is because he likes having her around. Thor knows why. Maybe having a powerful wizard look up to him makes him feel like he got one better on Eugene. Maybe he likes the way she strokes his ego. Maybe...er, these turns of phrase are making me uncomfortable. I'll stop now.

Because after being held for twenty minutes by the fiends, Vaarsuvius came back and saved the party. The only evidence Roy has about the fact that V can be called away indicates that V can quite possibly return in time to help.

[zimmerwald1915]

:vaarsuvius::Now can we PLEASE resume saving the world? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html)
Gee, how'd that turn out?


Sometimes my car is in the shop. Sometimes my computer freezes up. It's just not true that an asset that sometimes isn't available is either dangerous or poisoned.
V is more like a car lacking radiator fluid, or a computer with its cooling fan on the fritz. Far from just not working, these things are liable to light themselves, and anything around them, on fire. And even then the analogy isn't perfect, because there is no way for Roy or V to refill the tank or replace the fan.


Roy needs to lean on Vaarsuvius for preparation, but be ready to function without her at (only two) crucial moments. Among other things, that means that Haley, not Vaarsuvius, should carry all the wands. It also means trying to slow things down any time V disappears suddenly. Vaarsuvius is no longer an "at-will" asset. But "once per encounter" or "once per day" assets are still assets.
If Roy is ready to function without Vaarsuvius at critical moments, he is by definition ready to function without her in less critical moments. Vaarsuvius might be nice to have, but she is not crucial, critical, necessary, or irreplaceable.


Because after being held for twenty minutes by the fiends, Vaarsuvius came back and saved the party. The only evidence Roy has about the fact that V can be called away indicates that V can quite possibly return in time to help.
I think you're overstating V's contribution to the escape, which was primarily effected by Belkar. Furthermore, the way you frame this suggests that Roy feels he owes Vaarsuvius for something. I cannot agree.

[orrion]

So, hypothetically speaking. Redcloak concludes that he can't give control of the Snarl to the Dark One, but he also finds a way to destroy the current world, and moves to do so in accordance with his Plan B (letting the Dark One be part of making the next world).

Xykon, who likes this world because some of his best evil took place there and who also would be destroyed along with the world, stops Redcloak.

What alignment is Xykon after that, would you say?

If he's still Chaotic Evil, how far toward Chaotic Neutral has he been moved, in kilonazis?

A big fat zero.

[Shale]

Remember when V's Protection From Arrows spell stopped Belkar from taking a crossbow bolt to the face?

Also, in general, ten or twenty or thirty less-critical moments can add up to just as much impact as one fate-of-the-world moment, and the devils can't hold V out of all of those. Roy can still rely on his party wizard to get them through to the big finish, while a V-less party would be in more danger of being whittled down by level-appropriate encounters.

[zimmerwald1915]

Remember when V's Protection From Arrows spell stopped Belkar from taking a crossbow bolt to the face?
No, I don't. Mind citing the panel that shows that spell deflecting a crossbow bolt from Belkar?

[Smolder]

:roy: "Fixing it is like killing them all over again"

That's very literally true, in regards to Durkon.

[Shale]

Mind citing the panel that shows that spell deflecting a crossbow bolt from Belkar?

Plink! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html) Panel two.

[J's]

The death of Eric was probably one of the most important events in his life. Roy's decision to become a fighter was almost assuredly, at least partially, made because Roy hated what his father's obsession with magic had done to his family. Roy is very much like Eugene, though he would probably put you through a wall if you said that, at least in regards to their almost single-minded on a goal. I am honestly surprised this doesn't come to the surface more often.

Roy sat and listened (while playing with a stick) to stories of grandpa instead of listening to daddy, while still in diapers. It was likely before Erik's birth. Considering Eugene's own daddy issues Eugene showed his disappointment in Roy's personality and likes quickly. And Roy knew it, Exacerbated by little sis who was the apple of daddy's eye by liking magic.

The forum has had long discussions about whether or not Eugene is a good parent in the past. Mixed with judgments on his character. But I don't like mixing the two. You can be bad at a job and still be a good person. Oh, and parents who show favoritism are not good at their job.

[Kish]

A big fat zero.
I agree. So that would suggest that saving the world Vaarsuvius is in, an act which would be pretty completely unrelated to the mass murder, would not affect Vaarsuvius' moral standing either in the "trying to atone for Familicide" state or in her/his original "would probably be pissed off if s/he got punted into the Neutral Good afterlife rather than the True Neutral one" state, would it not?

I don't know about you, but when I think of Vaarsuvius atoning, I want something s/he wasn't on track to do anyway. And something directly related to the mass murder, not going out of her/his way to feed completely-unrelated-to-dragons orphans or the like.

[zimmerwald1915]

Plink! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html) Panel two.
Thank you, that was helpful. Now would you mind showing that Belkar would necessarily have fallen unconscious from this? And no, neither Roy nor Belkar is an authority on this. The arrow could have done as little as 1 damage, which even if Belkar had 1 HP (he might have had more), would not have impacted his ability to tame or command Bloodfeast. Belkar on 0 HP can do that.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Roy travels with Elan, who extincted hundreds of second-edition monsters and killed who knows how many living creatures in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

So, doing terrible things will not get you kicked out of the Order; once you're in, you're in; I guess.

[Jay R]

But neither Roy nor JayR makes any mention of magnitude of acts. JayR only makes mention of quality of acts and consistency in performing acts of certain quality.

That's because magnitude of the acts is not germane to my point, since atonement was not my point. In fact, I specifically said, "You may never atone for what happened in the past."

If you can never redeem yourself, you still need to keep trying today.

If you can redeem yourself with a single act today, you still need to keep
trying today.

If you have already redeemed yourself, you still need to keep trying today.

Because what you do today is not about what you did yesterday. It's about what you do today.

I repeat, "... today you can't change how good or bad your actions were in the past. Today you can only determine how good or bad your actions are today. That won't make it up to the ones who died on your watch in the past. But it will prevent more from dying on your watch in the future."

[zimmerwald1915]

I repeat, "... today you can't change how good or bad your actions were in the past. Today you can only determine how good or bad your actions are today. That won't make it up to the ones who died on your watch in the past. But it will prevent more from dying on your watch in the future."
How does this impact my point, which is that nothing about staying with the party impacts V's ability to do this one way or another? If V can "determine how good or bad her actions are" while not with the party, and if staying with the party affords V no additional or special opportunity to "determine how good or bad her actions are," then what moral reason is there for Roy to keep V in the party? Is it to keep the Order from dying? What makes the Order so darn special that their lives are inherently of more worth than any other five people on the planet?

[blunk]

Now would you mind showing that Belkar would necessarily have fallen unconscious from this?Perhaps a probability distribution would be more useful. Then you could calculate an estimated expected value.

[zimmerwald1915]

Perhaps a probability distribution would be more useful. Then you could calculate expected value.
Probability is meaningless in this comic.

[theNater]

Vaarsuvius might be nice to have, but she is not crucial, critical, necessary, or irreplaceable.
Is it your position, then, that the Order didn't need Vaarsuvius' help in escaping Tarquin, his team, and his army in strips #919 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0919.html)-#935 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html)?

[blunk]

Probability is meaningless in this comic.Probability is meaningful in D&D rules. You can apply probability to the comic insofar as you are applying D&D rules to it (even though that's pointless, as the comic doesn't abide by them).

[b_jonas]

he certainly doesn't have wizard ranks, that would be so against what we know of him up to this point,

I agree. It wouldn't go against Roy to have taken ranks in the wizard class, but if he did, he couldn't have kept it secret for so long as he believes this is an “every possible advantage needed” type of quest in #678 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html).

[zimmerwald1915]

Is it your position, then, that the Order didn't need Vaarsuvius' help in escaping Tarquin, his team, and his army in strips #919 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0919.html)-#935 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html)?
It is my position that the scene could have ended with the Order escaping had V not been present, yes.

[Angralad]

I agree. So that would suggest that saving the world Vaarsuvius is in, an act which would be pretty completely unrelated to the mass murder, would not affect Vaarsuvius' moral standing either in the "trying to atone for Familicide" state or in her/his original "would probably be pissed off if s/he got punted into the Neutral Good afterlife rather than the True Neutral one" state, would it not?

I don't know about you, but when I think of Vaarsuvius atoning, I want something s/he wasn't on track to do anyway. And something directly related to the mass murder, not going out of her/his way to feed completely-unrelated-to-dragons orphans or the like.

Agreed, saving the world was somethign V would do regardless of Familicide. A good example of atoning would be if V got the chance to sacrifice hir life to be granted one wish, that V make the wish be that all the consequences and implications of his casting Familicide would be undone or (to avoid the obvious uncomfortable and mind-spagettifying effects of teh Paradoxes) that all the beings that lost their lives to his Familicide spell were to be given a resurrection if their spirits choose to accept it.

To me, and this is the tricky part, if the (hypothetical) wish is granted in exchange for V's own life (without the possibility of a Rez), then that is atonement. If it's granted without that restriction, then that's merely "making up for it". There's a difference (to me at least).

[TheOtherErnie]

And something directly related to the mass murder, not going out of her/his way to feed completely-unrelated-to-dragons orphans or the like.That's the important part to me. It's difficult to atone if there's no world any more.

But saving the world (while a "good" action on V's part) is not the same as atonement for Familicide.

But a more complex question is whether V can still have a "good" alignment (at death by old age) if V does not atone for the Familicide. If the world is saved then V has a lot of years left (elf lifespan) to do a lot of good. Even if V never atones. Would that ever be sufficient to move V to "good"?

[hamishspence]

But a more complex question is whether V can still have a "good" alignment (at death by old age) if V does not atone for the Familicide. If the world is saved then V has a lot of years left (elf lifespan) to do a lot of good. Even if V never atones. Would that ever be sufficient to move V to "good"?Going by DMG, "casting aside ones evil ways" is enough to change someone who has been evil all their adult life, to Neutral & well on the way to goodness.

And it also mentions that, while the usual rule is one-step change, sometimes an Evil character has enough of a change of outlook to leap straight to Good.

Alignment may have more to do with outlook than deeds - a truly repentant evil character may become Neutral or Good before they accomplish atonement.

However - just because your alignment has changed, doesn't mean your Corruption (if you are using Fiendish Codex 2 rules) has been removed - that may require atonement as well as repentance.

And Corruption, rather than alignment, may play a large part in determining afterlife destination.

A truly repentant character, who would otherwise go to the Nine Hells (due to high Corruption that has not been atoned for - and Lawfulness) is reincarnated as a Hellbred - getting a second chance at redemption.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[ManicOppressive]

Alright, so within the scope of alignment, I have an ethical question along the lines of the conversation presently concomitant.

If V isn't to redeem himself by an unrelated but equal-in-magnitude act of good, then I'd like to propose a counter-situation. What if V had already saved the world before casting familicide? What if, hypothetically, it was undeniably 100% V, single-handedly saving everyone on the planet? Would the familicide have pushed V to neutral or evil, in spite of being completely unrelated to the act of good V already did? If your answer is yes, then why is the inverse any different?

Looking at this from a functional-ethical level, I'd seek to question whether V's existence creates a net good or a net evil. Assuming OotS ends with the party collectively saving the world in such a way as to distinctly say that each party member was necessary (already on track to do that) then there's really no arguing that V's existence was a net evil. Those dragons would be just as dead if it weren't for V. But that's purely functional, and function has little place in ethics.

So let's look at a purely moral standpoint. Let's say that a man murders a dozen people for no other reason than the evulz. He later repents, and seeks to become a good person. In the process of doing so, all memory of his evil acts is erased. He spends the next twenty years doing acts of charity and being a good person with absolutely no memory of being an evil person. Is the man good or evil? I would argue that he's now good, because he's in no way the same person beneath the physical level that he was when he committed said murders. Punishing him for them would benefit no one, and he's a benefit to society to be left alone, even if his total existence might not be a net benefit.

If you disagree with the last paragraph, then this won't have any bearing, but if you agree then I have one more extension. Let's say the man, after twenty years, gets his memory back. He remembers every evil thing he's done. His response is to continue doing good things. Is he now evil because he again remembers it?

I guess the point I'm trying to make, the question I'm trying to raise, is that of whether an evil act should be in any way less "balanceable" than a good one. No one would question whether V was currently evil if he was going around committing accidental-genocide in the process of committing intentional-genocide AFTER saving the world, because what he did before is clearly not influencing what he's doing now for the better. So why, in the reverse situation, is V not able to redeem himself if he proves that his present behaviors, which are clearly on the positive side of neutral at least, are no longer in danger of being negatively influenced by his past actions?

[jere7my]

So, hypothetically speaking. Redcloak concludes that he can't give control of the Snarl to the Dark One, but he also finds a way to destroy the current world, and moves to do so in accordance with his Plan B (letting the Dark One be part of making the next world).

Xykon, who likes this world because some of his best evil took place there and who also would be destroyed along with the world, stops Redcloak.

What alignment is Xykon after that, would you say?

Redemption and alignment have nothing to do with each other.

[Kish]

The link in your chain I disagree with, as you might gather from my reference to Xykon earlier, is, "Saving the world while standing on that world is a great good act, or a good act at all." If most evil characters would do it without hesitation or second thoughts then it's not a good act.

Redemption and alignment have nothing to do with each other.
A flat statement...of something goofy ("Redemption" and "Good" are unrelated concepts? Really?). I will reciprocate with a flat statement and no efforts to support it:

Redemption for committing mass murder requires doing something related to the mass murder, and is by no means fulfilled by demonstrating that you are not omnicidal.

[zimmerwald1915]

I guess the point I'm trying to make, the question I'm trying to raise, is that of whether an evil act should be in any way less "balanceable" than a good one. No one would question whether V was currently evil if he was going around committing accidental-genocide in the process of committing intentional-genocide AFTER saving the world, because what he did before is clearly not influencing what he's doing now for the better. So why, in the reverse situation, is V not able to redeem himself if he proves that his present behaviors, which are clearly on the positive side of neutral at least, are no longer in danger of being negatively influenced by his past actions?
There's a cultural meme that being evil is easy while being good is hard. This might be reflected in the alignment system; I'll defer to hamishspence's expertise on this matter.

[Smolder]

Now I'm wondering if Eugene's blood oath had little to do with the reason he couldn't get into his afterlife. I'm thinking he has yet to accept responsibility, much less atone, for the death of an innocent, and that if/when he does, it will go a long way towards helping his spiritual situation.

[jere7my]

Redemption for committing mass murder requires doing something related to the mass murder, and is by no means fulfilled by demonstrating that you are not omnicidal.

Eh. Welcome to the deep end of moral philosophy.

You answered your own concern: "Redemption requires doing something." Alignment does not. You have an alignment even if you're completely passive. They're unrelated (unless you think it's impossible to act counter to your alignment).

[hamishspence]

There's a cultural meme that being evil is easy while being good is hard. This might be reflected in the alignment system; I'll defer to hamishspence's expertise on this matter.

It should be noted that Fiendish Codex 2 is a splatbook - we don't know that:

"Lower Planes are punitive- and once your deeds are enough to sent you there - you have to atone to escape that fate"

is The Giant's take on them.

Still, some strips may hint at it:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html

And the Upper Planes may be very strict about unrepented transgressions:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html

[Jay R]

Gee, how'd that turn out?

Pretty well, so far. The most recent goal was to keep Girards gate out of Xykon's hands. Mission accomplished.


V is more like a car lacking radiator fluid, or a computer with its cooling fan on the fritz. Far from just not working, these things are liable to light themselves, and anything around them, on fire. And even then the analogy isn't perfect, because there is no way for Roy or V to refill the tank or replace the fan.?

The analogy isn't merely imperfect; it's completely wrong. Vaarsuvius will not set anyone on fire, but just stop having an effect for a brief time, twice. And the fan will replace itself in three, or twenty, minutes.


If Roy is ready to function without Vaarsuvius at critical moments, he is by definition ready to function without her in less critical moments. ?

Simply false. I can get by without my computer for a short period, but I'm not prepared to do without it for long stretches. I am ready to function with "once-per-day" abilities once per day. Similarly, Vaarsuvius can be used for locate and scrying spells, while counting on Durkon's new abilities to fill in during the missing three, or twenty, minutes.


Vaarsuvius might be nice to have, but she is not crucial, critical, necessary, or irreplaceable.?

Since neither we nor they know what will be needed, neither we nor they can have the knowledge of whether this is true or false.

But having a wizard for all except 23 minutes of the next two weeks has to be better than having no wizard for the entire two weeks.

And Vaarsuvius is irreplaceable, unless you know of an immediately available high-level wizard willing to follow Roy.


I think you're overstating V's contribution to the escape, which was primarily effected by Belkar.

Well, I actually believe that the Wall of Fire, taking out the pterodactyul riders, collecting Elan and Haley, Prismatic Spray which hurt all of Team Tarquin and cost them their triceratops, suggesting the coordinated attack on Miron which got rid of him, flying Roy and Belkar to the Mechane, casting the flight spell that let Haley carry Elan, knocking Tarquin off the bow of the ship and defeating Laurin single-handedly had something to do with it.

Also, in #919, Roy says that Belkar is one bolt from dying, and Vaarsuvius casts Protection from Arrows. In #920, Belkar is hit by a bolt, which bounces off harmlessly. Anything Belkar does after might be impossible without Vaarsuvius's spell. Certainly that spell changed his actions from hiding to taking direct action.

And of course, Belkar would not have been willing to go if Blackwing hadn't grabbed Bloodfeast.

By the way, I went back and re-read that fight before expressing an opinion on it. Did you?


Furthermore, the way you frame this suggests that Roy feels he owes Vaarsuvius for something. I cannot agree.

Not at all. My statement was entirely tactical. The one time the fiends have taken Vaarsuvius, the wizard returned in time to play a significant part in saving the party. Therefore your statement that Vaarsuvius is a poisoned asset is clearly untrue. V is merely an asset with limits.

[zimmerwald1915]

Now I'm wondering if Eugene's blood oath had little to do with the reason he couldn't get into his afterlife. I'm thinking he has yet to accept responsibility, much less atone, for the death of an innocent, and that if/when he does, it will go a long way towards helping his spiritual situation.
If that was the case, then why didn't the bureaucratic deva mention it in the final scene in On the Origin of PCs? Why did she explicitly say that but for the Blood Oath, he would get into Celestia? We know that the devas are privy to all the events of a mortal's life, so she couldn't have been ignorant. We know that they are purely Good, so she couldn't have not cared. I am left with two possibilities: either she chose to ignore a pretty big sin on Eugene's part and then lie to him about it, or she accepted his actions and his explanations for them, the way Roy's would later accept Roy's actions and explanations with respect to Elan.

[hamishspence]

If that was the case, then why didn't the bureaucratic deva mention it in the final scene in On the Origin of PCs? Why did she explicitly say that but for the Blood Oath, he would get into Celestia? We know that the devas are privy to all the events of a mortal's life, so she couldn't have been ignorant. We know that they are purely Good, so she couldn't have not cared. I am left with two possibilities: either she chose to ignore a pretty big sin on Eugene's part and then lie to him about it, or she accepted his actions and his explanations for them, the way Roy's would later accept Roy's actions and explanations with respect to Elan.
It's in Start of Darkness that a deva assesses Eugene's record at the end - and, when coming to the "unfulfilled Blood Oath" stops there and focuses on that.

[theNater]

It is my position that the scene could have ended with the Order escaping had V not been present, yes.
The way you phrased that makes me think you mean that they could have gotten away if Tarquin's forces had been written to be weaker and/or use different tactics. Is that what you mean, and if so, doesn't that mean none of the characters are necessary?

[Kish]

Eh. Welcome to the deep end of moral philosophy.

You answered your own concern: "Redemption requires doing something." Alignment does not. You have an alignment even if you're completely passive. They're unrelated (unless you think it's impossible to act counter to your alignment).
If you're completely passive, then you have the alignment True Neutral--none of the others. And that, quite possibly in the "mindless creatures are True Neutral" way rather than in the actual alignment way.