PF Thuvian (Natural) Alchemists are bad. And not in the good way

[grarrrg]

Good News everyone!
There's a SECOND PrC for Alchemists!
Thuvian Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/natural-alchemist) (Natural Alchemist)

Bad News!
That was the entirety of the good news.


Seriously, go read the thing over. I'll wait.

Back?

WOW, that thing blows more than a wind elemental.
The requirements are easy enough for an Alchemist, you already have the Feat, and you'll either have the Skills already, or enough Points to get them quick enough, and the "2nd level Extracts" is automatic.
So qualification is simple, what do we get?

d6 Hit Dice, 2 Skills a level, 1/2 Bab, and a good Will Save.
The Will Save is nice, but technically a downgrade from Alchemists having 2 Good saves, everything else is worse.
So what do we get in exchange?

Well, at 1st level we can convert Two 1st level Extract Slots into a Cure Light Wounds Infusion that lasts up to 1 whole round! And it takes ONLY a Full Round action to do so!
So out of combat, this is basically what Clerics get, except it takes double the slots.
What else?
"Natural" Discoveries. You get access to 3 new "PrC Only" discoveries, or can pick from a greatly limited list. Alchemist levels stack for qualifying for these, and ONLY these, Discoveries. 2 of the new ones are 'Elemental' based, the third gives you extra options with the other 'new' PrC feature:

Curative Enhancements, these are basically Paladin Mercies that can _only_ be used with your Healing Solution ability, AND your Healing Solution gets it's Curing downgraded a notch (meaning you can't use these at all with a spontaneous Cure Light Wounds Solution).

At 3rd level you also get the ability for your Infusions to affect multiple targets!
If the spell-version could normally affect multiple targets.
And if everyone who wants to be affected drinks the Infusion within 1 round of everyone.
AND up to a number of targets equal to your INT modifier.

You also get some Bomb advancement. Every 3 levels you get +1 Bomb, +1d6 damage, and +1 level for qualifying for Bomb Discoveries (not that you can TAKE Bomb Discoveries with this class, you'd have to jump back to Alchemist for take the Extra Discovery Feat for that).

And the Capstone? You get locked into the "Not Aging" Grand Discovery. On the bright side, you can get your Grand Discovery as early as level 15.


You can also qualify for Natural Alchemist as an Arcane Caster.
This I can see as _potentially_ more useful.
In a low-Divine party you could become a great source of out-of-combat healing. A Full Arcane would have more low-level spell slots to wastespend on Healing Solutions, and getting access to various "remove X" conditions could be handy.
That's about it.

Thoughts? Is there something that I'm somehow missing that would make this actually worthwhile?

[deuxhero]

At first I saw the spell advancement table and thought this would be one of those "you aren't actually a caster" things.

Then I read on... Damn.

It's like whoever wrote that missed this line


but it’s not uncommon for an alchemist to keep some (or even all) of his daily extract slots open so that he can prepare extracts in the field as needed.

[mucat]

*heads off to read about the class, confident that it can't be THAT bad, and gearing up to grumble about unimaginative high-op drones*

...
...
...damn.

This class has TWO schticks. Healing Solution, which is a costly and inefficient way to feed other people your Cure <foo> Wounds formulae...and way less useful or versatile than just taking the Infusion discovery. And the Curative Enhancement thing, which piggybacks on the aforementioned Healing Solutions, and does things an alchemist can do anyway through other extracts, and/or things that are not worth the actions and extract slots they cost.

In return for these benefits, you get worse saves, worse BAB, slower bomb progression, 2 fewer skill points per level, restricted discovery choices, and a list totaling FIVE class skills. (And none of them are thinks like Profession (any). It really is five individual skills.)

I play an alchemist in a low-magic steampunk campaign, where alchemists are the only "caster" class in existence. He's a (somewhat deranged) doctor by profession, and far more interested in becoming a better doctor than in being a combat powerhouse. So I'm USED to valuing healing options, and features that might normally be done better by another class, because in this campaign, those other classes do not exist.

And I still cannot see any reason to glance at this prestige class.

[deuxhero]

Class skills work differently in PF. Once you have a level in a class with a class skill it's a class skill forever...

Which makes this worse. All 5 are stuff the alchemist ALREADY gets. Master Chymist exclusively got stuff the alchemist didn't.

[N. Jolly]

Hot dog, can't wait to add it to the guide!

EDIT: In case it wasn't obvious

[BeerMug Paladin]

I could see myself doing this as an alchemical crafting sorcerer. Give myself some curing ability with full spell progression. It would also give me access to use magic device, too.

It wouldn't be quite as good with a wizard's fewer spells, but that option exists too.

I usually pick classes for flavor, not optimization, so there's probably better out there already though.

But even for flavor, I'm not sure what this really does for the alchemist class. My only guess is that it's for people that want a dash of alchemy in their character without actually taking the alchemist class.

[Sir Pippin Boyd]

Its a PrC with with full spellcasting "in alchemist or in an arcane spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class" and none of the requirements actually require a single level in alchemist. Looks to me like a great new PrC for Wizards. In fact, if you weren't already going to PrC into something else as a wizard, there is virtually no reason *not* to take this.

Reading further, some of the benefits a wizard would get from the PrC are tremendous. Most notably the Natural Discoveries. At 10th level, the Spontaneous Healing discovery would essentially add 50 to her total hit points, Enhance Potion could be used with Extend Potion to make basic level 1 potions last for a very long time. If a feat was spent after hitting Natural Alchemist 10, the wizard could take Mummification to gain immunity to cold, paralysis, nonlethal damage, and sleep. Also, losing all penalties from aging while keeping the benefits seems pretty keen.

I'm fairly convinced every wizard I ever make from now on will be taking this.

[Rainshine]

I guess I can kindof see that, as an prestige dip for arcane casters, rather than an actual alchemist. But really, at that point, UMD a wand?
I couldn't help but think of the Guild Wars 2 Engineer when I read this. One of their abilities is essentially to throw a potion on the ground, where it creates an aoe buff field for their allies. There's the volatile vaporizer, but that's a one-time use personal burst item. I could see a prestige class or maybe even an ACF that got something like that as a usable ability. That's what I was hoping the healing stuff was here.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Its a PrC with with full spellcasting "in alchemist or in an arcane spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class" and none of the requirements actually require a single level in alchemist. Looks to me like a great new PrC for Wizards. In fact, if you weren't already going to PrC into something else as a wizard, there is virtually no reason *not* to take this.This is a very strange prestige class for casters While I don't agree that the class is an automatic choice for wizards, the fact that it is even a choice for a spellcaster confuses me. And not just for any spellcaster, but specifically arcane casters, even though alchemists don't care about the divine or arcane nature of the spells their extracts are based on.

So, to build off what Sir Pippin is saying, I'll pose a question to the thread: Is this just a spellcaster PrC disguised as an Alchemist PrC?

[Arutema]

By the way, if you're looking through your rulebooks and can't find it, it's because the class's real name is "Thuvian Alchemist" and it's in People of the Sands page 26. d20PFSRD renamed it for legal reasons.

[Baroncognito]

By the way, if you're looking through your rulebooks and can't find it, it's because the class's real name is "Thuvian Alchemist" and it's in People of the Sands page 26. d20PFSRD renamed it for legal reasons.

Oh, well, that kind of makes sense then. There aren't supposed to be any clerics in that region.

[Spore]

Is this thing salvagable as an option for the "Wizard who chooses to dip out of his class for some additional toys"? Or is this a class that is best to be taken to weaken your wizard to fit the mold in an low op game?

[Baroncognito]

Is this thing salvagable as an option for the "Wizard who chooses to dip out of his class for some additional toys"? Or is this a class that is best to be taken to weaken your wizard to fit the mold in an low op game?

If you take 10 levels of this class instead of 10 levels of Wizard, you lose 2 bonus feats and 10 levels of progression on your school abilities.

You gain bombs (up to 3d6+int damage per bomb, up to 10 + int times per day), four alchemical discoveries from a list, and some minor healing abilities.

[warmachine]

One of the problems with 3.5 was editing of new material was non-existent. Are Paizo letting authors write any old dross these days?

[Sir Pippin Boyd]

So, to build off what Sir Pippin is saying, I'll pose a question to the thread: Is this just a spellcaster PrC disguised as an Alchemist PrC?

If there is a simple answer at all, the answer is yes. While it wasn't uncommon for 3.5 material to find itself mechanically fit much better in a different niche than the one it was written for in terms of fluff, the fact that "Or arcane spellcaster" shows up so many times in the text means this couldn't have been opened to other casters by mistake. This isn't something wizards are taking some obscure feat to qualify for, it literally just costs 1 feat and some skills, one of which they should have been taking anyway.

Though I admit, when I said it was almost objectively better than core wizard, I had forgotten that pathfinder introduced school powers for wizards. That said, 10 levels of this offers immortality, extra hp, and some other neat tricks. Wizard school abilities would have to drive a really hard bargain to outweigh eternal life.

[The Random NPC]

If there is a simple answer at all, the answer is yes. While it wasn't uncommon for 3.5 material to find itself mechanically fit much better in a different niche than the one it was written for in terms of fluff, the fact that "Or arcane spellcaster" shows up so many times in the text means this couldn't have been opened to other casters by mistake. This isn't something wizards are taking some obscure feat to qualify for, it literally just costs 1 feat and some skills, one of which they should have been taking anyway.

Though I admit, when I said it was almost objectively better than core wizard, I had forgotten that pathfinder introduced school powers for wizards. That said, 10 levels of this offers immortality, extra hp, and some other neat tricks. Wizard school abilities would have to drive a really hard bargain to outweigh eternal life.

20 levels of wizard grants eternal life as well.

[Psyren]

d gives you extra options with the other 'new' PrC feature:

Curative Enhancements, these are basically Paladin Mercies that can _only_ be used with your Healing Solution ability, AND your Healing Solution gets it's Curing downgraded a notch (meaning you can't use these at all with a spontaneous Cure Light Wounds Solution).

This seems to me the main reason to take this PrC. The problem of course is that alchemists can deal with all of the mercy-related debuffs already, so it doesn't add a whole lot to their kit, certainly not making up for what it loses.

I agree there isn't much reason to take this as an alchemist. As a wizard though, say in a party where the debuff removal role isn't covered, this can be more useful. I see it as being roughly on par with False Priest for Sorcerers - not very useful overall, but fits a flavorful niche for players with more of a supporting mindset.

[grarrrg]

By the way, if you're looking through your rulebooks and can't find it, it's because the class's real name is "Thuvian Alchemist" and it's in People of the Sands page 26. d20PFSRD renamed it for legal reasons.
Thank you, fixed.
That is one of the problems with the Srd, but it is SO much easier to use than the Prd.


So, to build off what Sir Pippin is saying, I'll pose a question to the thread: Is this just a spellcaster PrC disguised as an Alchemist PrC?


I agree there isn't much reason to take this as an alchemist. As a wizard though, say in a party where the debuff removal role isn't covered, this can be more useful. I see it as being roughly on par with False Priest for Sorcerers - not very useful overall, but fits a flavorful niche for players with more of a supporting mindset.

Basically this ^

From the Wizard/Sorc angle, it's pretty average. You have Full Casting progression without any real hoops to jump through, so it's worth a look.

From the Alchemist side of things, they finally get a 2nd PrC, and it's a steaming pile. The Alchemist-entry feels very tacked on to me.

Basically it's "Be an Alchemist the PrC!".
But the last time they did this (Be an Inquisitor the PrC (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/gray-warden)!) there was still at least _some_ reason an Inquisitor would actually want to take levels in it.

[grarrrg]

So...any thoughts on "quick homebrew" salvaging?

First off, it gains access to Breath of Life, but they failed to note the problems they had the FIRST time they tried that.
So we add a reminder-thingy based on the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rbr).

Now this is fairly obviously a Wizard (Sorc/Witch/etc...) PrC, with Alchemist tacked on:

Designer A: Hey! Look at this sweet 'Potion Wizard' PrC I've been working on!
Designer B: Umm...you do know the 'Alchemist' already exists, yes?
A: Alchawhat?
B: Just throw in some 'Bomb' progression, that'll shut them up.

So the first move is to make Healing Solution only cost _1_ Extract slot instead of 2. It would still cost 2 Spell Slots for the Wizard types.
This makes good sense for a number of reasons, Alchemists have fewer slots to begin with, and they already have access to Cure spells, whereas (most) Arcane types do not. Next, drop it to a Standard Action, and extend the "must use by next turn" thing to "used within a number of rounds equal to your Thuvian Alchemist level" (or just drop the Duration thing altogether).


Other thoughts?

[3WhiteFox3]

So the first move is to make Healing Solution only cost _1_ Extract slot instead of 2. It would still cost 2 Spell Slots for the Wizard types.
This makes good sense for a number of reasons, Alchemists have fewer slots to begin with, and they already have access to Cure spells, whereas (most) Arcane types do not. Next, drop it to a Standard Action, and extend the "must use by next turn" thing to "used within a number of rounds equal to your Thuvian Alchemist level" (or just drop the Duration thing altogether).


Other thoughts?

Healing Solution isn't really that spectacular even with the boosts, especially since Clerics still do it much better. It means wasting actions and infusions on something already underwhelming. I'd actually drop it to a swift action, so that you can make the solution and administer it to another person in the same turn. In combat healing's already bad enough, it doesn't need to be made worse, this way you can at least have the solution ready when you need it. Also, It's already a permanent change for one of your infusions, no need for you to have one of your precious slots wasted because the duration ran out.

Alright, in order to figure out where this PRC should be, let's do a quick comparison with the Base Alchemist in order to determine how we can make the Natural Alchemist more worthwhile for what you lose.

Losses:

7 bombs/day
2d6 bomb damage
10 alchemist levels for qualifying for non-natural discoveries (and 7 levels for bomb discoveries).
Natural Discovery options are very limited
Delayed Access to Swift Poisoning, Poison Resistance and Poison Immunity
Persistent Mutagen
Instant Alchemy
Grand Discoveries
Good Fort and Will Saves
3/4 BaB
Reduced to 2+Int Skills
d8 hit dice


Gains:

Good Will Saves
Healing Solution (trades precious infusions for a bit of emergency healing
Four unique Discoveries ((I'm not sure if Shared Infusions is supposed to be a class feature or discovery; the text implies that it's with prerequisites. It's also not on the table and the text doesn't list a level that it is gained. I'm gonna assume that it's a discovery))
Curative Enhancements (Paladin's mercies are good and so are these; sucks that it reduces the level of healing though.)
Eternal Youth (Unless you are already suffering from age penalties, this just isn't that useful.)


You lose out on a lot for very little. So you need to gain a big deal in order for the class to be worth it.

I'd start with by giving them all good saves, 3/4th BaB, 4+Int Skills, give them Infusions for free at first level.

I'd change Shared Infusions into a class feature at second level but also increase the duration of the shared infusion by 10 minutes. Increasing by another 10 minutes every even level past second. This makes Shared Infusions more useful for pre-combat buffing and utility spells. I'd also consider adding the ability to have an effect similar to metamagic (increasing the extraction level by +2-+3) in order to make a single target spell eligible for Shared Infusions.

Natural Discoveries could have a new discovery added.

Divine Extractions: Natural Alchemists look to divine casters for inspiration and to add to their repertoire of abilities. Choose one spell from any Divine Casting class up to the highest level extraction the Natural Alchemist can prepare to make it eligible to be prepared as an Extraction. It counts as an Extraction for all purposes.

Curative Enhancements can be used on any healing subtype extract, does not decrease the curing by a level.

At tenth level gain the ability to make one of your extractions or infusions last 10 hours instead of the listed duration, don't add the bonus from shared infusions. This can only be used 1/day and can be dispelled normally.

Sure, that's a lot. But they also lose out on most of the best things that an alchemist. Worst comes to worst, it can be toned down if need be.

[Nihilarian]

Perhaps an Arcane Bomber might get more out of this than a standard alchemist or wizard?

[Psyren]

"Clerics do it better" is missing the point. Remember, this is a setting-based PrC, and as Baroncognito rightfully pointed out there are very few clerics in Thuvia. It's basically Alchemist Central, a small nation whose claim to fame is the artifact-level elixir that Golarion's most powerful(?) alchemist brews there and sells to the highest-bidding nations.

@grarrg - I think making it easier on alchemists is a good change.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

"Clerics do it better" is missing the point. Remember, this is a setting-based PrC, and as Baroncognito rightfully pointed out there are very few clerics in Thuvia. It's basically Alchemist Central, a small nation whose claim to fame is the artifact-level elixir that Golarion's most powerful(?) alchemist brews there and sells to the highest-bidding nations.

@grarrg - I think making it easier on alchemists is a good change.

According to Inner Sea Magic, Artokus Kirran, brewer of the Sun Orchid Elixar, has 20+ levels of alchemist. This likely translates to some mythic ranks nowadays.

[3WhiteFox3]

"Clerics do it better" is missing the point. Remember, this is a setting-based PrC, and as Baroncognito rightfully pointed out there are very few clerics in Thuvia. It's basically Alchemist Central, a small nation whose claim to fame is the artifact-level elixir that Golarion's most powerful(?) alchemist brews there and sells to the highest-bidding nations.

@grarrg - I think making it easier on alchemists is a good change.

It still doesn't change the fact that healing is a low-priority niche, and the Thuvian (natural) alchemist loses out on a whole bunch in order to become slightly more proficient in it.

[grarrrg]

Alright, in order to figure out where this PRC should be, let's do a quick comparison with the Base Alchemist in order to determine how we can make the Natural Alchemist more worthwhile for what you lose.

I guess one of the first questions to be asked before "fixing" would be 'Do we keep the _same_ PrC for Alchemist/Wizard? Or do we make one version for Alchemists and another version for Wizards?'

Most of your suggestions would bring it up to par for an Alchemist entry, but might be a little too good for a Wizard entry.

Is there any happy middle ground?

[3WhiteFox3]

I guess one of the first questions to be asked before "fixing" would be 'Do we keep the _same_ PrC for Alchemist/Wizard? Or do we make one version for Alchemists and another version for Wizards?'

Most of your suggestions would bring it up to par for an Alchemist entry, but might be a little too good for a Wizard entry.

Is there any happy middle ground?

What I'd do is keep my fix and make most of the class features only relevant to an Alchemist, the Wizard's spells are a different entity and don't gain anything in the PrC that modifies Infusions or Extracts. So most of the goodies that I put in there for the alchemist don't apply to the casters. No Divine Extractions or Shared Infusions, Curative Enhancements work normally for them, etc....

That way the only real gain (besides the improved chassis) is healing solution, the natural discoveries (none of which are that spectacular for an arcane caster possible exceptions for extend potion and eternal potion), curative enhancement and eternal youth.

Arcane casters picking up some the better HD, BaB and Saves and Skill points is probably only slightly better than single-classing for bloodlines/arcane schools/bonus feats/arcane discoveries/etc...

However, if it is an issue, a possible fix is to make it so that the first level only progresses Extractions and not Arcane Spellcasting. 9/10 casting would be a deal breaker for most casters, though some might suffer through the lost caster level for the better Chassis and healing.

[Drachasor]

I guess one of the first questions to be asked before "fixing" would be 'Do we keep the _same_ PrC for Alchemist/Wizard? Or do we make one version for Alchemists and another version for Wizards?'

Most of your suggestions would bring it up to par for an Alchemist entry, but might be a little too good for a Wizard entry.

Is there any happy middle ground?

Any fix to it is still going to be god-awful for arcane casters, so I don't see the problem. Really the class makes no sense to even allow to arcane casters.

Healing Infusions should not cost 2 infusions, btw. That's just stupid. It's a crappy ability even doing that. I'd seriously consider fitting Heal in there somewhere.


Its a PrC with with full spellcasting "in alchemist or in an arcane spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class" and none of the requirements actually require a single level in alchemist. Looks to me like a great new PrC for Wizards. In fact, if you weren't already going to PrC into something else as a wizard, there is virtually no reason *not* to take this.

Reading further, some of the benefits a wizard would get from the PrC are tremendous. Most notably the Natural Discoveries. At 10th level, the Spontaneous Healing discovery would essentially add 50 to her total hit points, Enhance Potion could be used with Extend Potion to make basic level 1 potions last for a very long time. If a feat was spent after hitting Natural Alchemist 10, the wizard could take Mummification to gain immunity to cold, paralysis, nonlethal damage, and sleep. Also, losing all penalties from aging while keeping the benefits seems pretty keen.

I'm fairly convinced every wizard I ever make from now on will be taking this.

I have to respectfully disagree that this is a good thing for Arcane Casters.

1. Potions are crap. Double length potions are still crap. This is a worthless ability. Getting some potions to function at CL doesn't really change this; potions are overly expensive and not worth the feat. You're just a couple levels shy from being able to use wands at CL with your Spell Casting Stat anywhere by this point (staff-like wand can be gotten at wizard 11). But fundamentally, this is really only good for some 1st level spells which you have tons of at this point.

2. At level 10 you are CL 15 at least. At this point you can do so many things that Mummification is honestly not that impressive. You can use other creature's bodies (mummification doesn't work for that). Very likely the DM won't let it work with Polymorph effects (though I grant the actual interaction is unclear). And it just isn't worth giving up 2 bonus feats, your 8th level arcane school ability, and the opportunity cost of other arcane PrCs that are actually worth it (PF has a couple, and they allow you to nab spells from other lists, a much, much better ability). I'm not saying it is bad, but it isn't that good.

Comparatively you could have spells like Heal, Awaken, Holy Word, any 4th level Paladin spell (or 6th level or lower spells of ANY class) available to prepare. There are just much better things that require far less sacrifice.