V chose a Lawful Good counselor? What would the other alignments say?

[Finagle]

Just seems kind of odd that a "I'm just in it for my own personal power" Neutral character would go to a stridently Lawful Good character for moral advice. The Elven gods surely must have something to say on the subject. V and Blackwing should have had a solo back-and-forth where we got to know more about Elven culture and Neutral morality.

Yeah, I know, I know, V respects Roy personally, and the entire alignment system is a stupid idea that should have been abandoned decades ago. But since there's nothing else to talk about in this forum anyway, if V had gone to a representative of each other alignment for spiritual advice, what would they have said?

[FujinAkari]

Jthe entire alignment system is a stupid idea that should have been abandoned decades ago. But since there's nothing else to talk about in this forum anyway

Wow. I am impressed that you made such astoundingly incorrect assertions in such quick succession :)

No, the alignment system should not be abandoned, it is one of the cornerstones of the comic and one of the most interesting and thought-provoking parts of D&D for a number of people, Rich Burlew included.

Also, look around the forum, there is ALWAYS things to be talked about :)

As to your point, V really isn't self-serving and power hungry. I won't say he has changed alignment, but I would say that he -wants- to be good now, so he is seeking advise from a Good character he respects.

[factotum]

Well, what other alignments are available to him? Elan and Haley are both Chaotic Good, Belkar is Chaotic Evil and Durkon is now Lawful Evil--just looking at the alignments, none of them would be a great choice for getting advice here. Therefore, choosing someone whose opinion you respect is as good a way of doing it as any!

[rbetieh]

Well, what other alignments are available to him? Elan and Haley are both Chaotic Good, Belkar is Chaotic Evil and Durkon is now Lawful Evil--just looking at the alignments, none of them would be a great choice for getting advice here. Therefore, choosing someone whose opinion you respect is as good a way of doing it as any!


I think Belkar would have had a similar reaction to the one the Qarr had.

[RMS Oceanic]

Well, what other alignments are available to him? Elan and Haley are both Chaotic Good, Belkar is Chaotic Evil and Durkon is now Lawful Evil--just looking at the alignments, none of them would be a great choice for getting advice here. Therefore, choosing someone whose opinion you respect is as good a way of doing it as any!

Indeed. V's thinking was not "Sir Greenhilt is Lawful Good, he will pose the correct advice for my situation." It was "Sir Greenhilt is an intelligent man, and I respect his opinion, so of all my allies he will have the most effective input."

[veti]

Well, what other alignments are available to him? Elan and Haley are both Chaotic Good, Belkar is Chaotic Evil and Durkon is now Lawful Evil--just looking at the alignments, none of them would be a great choice for getting advice here.

It would be very interesting to see what Durkon said. Come to think of it, that's probably why we're not going to see that - it would reveal too much, too quickly, about Durkon's current moral outlook.

[Bird]

Indeed. V's thinking was not "Sir Greenhilt is Lawful Good, he will pose the correct advice for my situation." It was "Sir Greenhilt is an intelligent man, and I respect his opinion, so of all my allies he will have the most effective input."
I agree with this. In addition, it matters that Roy is the leader of the OotS. Roy is the only member of the party whom Vaarsuvius views as an authority figure -- someone worthy of trust when it comes to the mission of saving the world.

It can't have escaped V's attention, either, that if Roy hadn't died and left a leadership vacuum, the whole insomnia-madness-genocide thing might not have happened.

*

Roy pretty much admits that he has no idea how to reconcile his lawfulness (or goodness) with what V has done, because it's too big. All he has to hold onto is the "trying to do the right thing" line that the deva in the afterlife gave him. Personally, I don't think that that motto must be tied to LG-ness, and I could imagine a NG or CG Roy having pretty much the same reaction as what we see here.

[Finagle]

What would a Neutral counselor have said? What if V went to Scoundrel and laid his problems out? What about Tarquin?

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Indeed. V's thinking was not "Sir Greenhilt is Lawful Good, he will pose the correct advice for my situation." It was "Sir Greenhilt is an intelligent man, and I respect his opinion, so of all my allies he will have the most effective input."
Agreed - but Roy is also V's leader, so he is the correct choice on that count too, and only partly because of the potential danger to Roy and the rest of the Order when the IFCC call V back again.

[Chantelune]

I think it's more about personalities than alignement, here, though alignements might have been a factor as well as they're tied to personality on some level.

Anyway, considering the party's personalities, there are only two perso who are depicted as level headed and wise enough to give some actual insight : Durkon and Roy. My guess is that V might have gone to Durkon if that switch in his vitals hadn't occured. But as Durkon turned undead, even if his wisdom is still there, his morals have a good chance to have switched along with his alignement. As a result, he's no longer a good source of advice for V, especially as she seemed to want to discuss the moral of it.

And so, Roy is the only one remaining that V could turn to. That, and he's the leader of the party, which mean that he also need to know the actual implications of the deal V made.

He might tell the rest of the party after, if only so they're aware of the issue and won't panic if they see V collapse in the middle of a fight or crucial event, but I doubt she will go to them for couseling, except maybe Haley, who she's close friend with.

But going to Belkar or Elan ? Riiiiight...

[Sir Pippin Boyd]

Just seems kind of odd that a "I'm just in it for my own personal power" Neutral character would go to a stridently Lawful Good character for moral advice. The Elven gods surely must have something to say on the subject. V and Blackwing should have had a solo back-and-forth where we got to know more about Elven culture and Neutral morality.

Yeah, I know, I know, V respects Roy personally, and the entire alignment system is a stupid idea that should have been abandoned decades ago. But since there's nothing else to talk about in this forum anyway, if V had gone to a representative of each other alignment for spiritual advice, what would they have said?

I find it interesting that you, who decry the alignment system as useless and/or outdated, jump straight to alignment as the answer. As V said in character, it respects Roy's integrity. Further, Neutral characters aren't necessarily oblivious to or disconnected from morality. Typically they do, as V clearly indicates, have some comprehension of right and wrong. Lacking this wouldn't make one neutral, it would make them evil.

[pjie2]

*sigh* Even within the alignment system, this is the only choice that makes sense. He's a neutral character looking to atone for an evil act. Moreover, an evil act in which he took the law into his own hands and became judge, jury and executioner. Given that he has to balance out probably the biggest Chaotic Evil act of all time, then who better to turn to for advice?

[Newwby]

As other people mentioned already I think it's simply the case that Roy is V's leader/boss in the whole saving the world endeavour. The issue here isn't the counselling, the issue here is that as V's boss Roy represents a figure of authority that V can both unburden himself (to an extent) and report himself. V already acknowledged in a previous comic that it was irresponsible of him to have not mentioned this information before. It affects more than just him and as leader of the group Roy is the best positioned to deal with the news.

Note: Use of male identifiers does not constitute a belief in, nor imply knowledge thereof, V being of a male gender. The English language has patriarchal roots therefore I simply defaulted to male.

More on topic (after a re-read of the thread title)

Lawful Neutral
I can imagine a LN individual would vary depending on what codes and morality they hold themselves to, for example someone with a strong familial obligation and sense of vengeance might respect the choice V made, even if they wouldn't have made it themselves.

Lawful Evil
The deliberateness of familicide would probably resonate the most with this alignment, if not for the legal issues that Roy brought up. LE is often defined as exploiting, yet working within, the system. A flagrant disregard of so many legal territories might be out of character with the alignment.

Neutral Good
Completely and utterly opposed, obviously. I would love to see a serious argument for familicide being a good act (I'm sure it's happened on the forums somewhere already), for amusement reasons, but no one could take such a thing seriously I'm sure.

True Neutral
Well to get an appropriation of how this alignment would react simply look at how V has behaved following the act.

Neutral Evil
Although you can argue that V may have shifted (experienced 'alignment feedback') by this point. I personally believe his actions post-familicide are still more in keeping with true neutral (or even neutral good) as a whole, but how do you weigh up so many small actions against such a massive one? If V has fallen to NE then what I said for TN applies here, otherwise I can imagine a neutral evil individual would have acted similarly given a similar situation.

Chaotic Good
Oh so very very opposed. I'll be interested to see how Elan and Haley (CG/CN?) react to news of V's actions, particularly given Elan's previous antipathy toward V's behaviour in that time period.

Chaotic Neutral
This may be my personal interpretation but as with LN I tend to interpret CN as individuals who have a personal code or sense of morality, perhaps out of touch with that of society, that dictates their behaviour. As such I find the reaction of a CN individual difficult to fathom purely on basis of alignment, but I can't imagine it too positive.

Chaotic Evil
"Yay murder!"

[dric_dolphin]

I find it interesting that you, who decry the alignment system as useless and/or outdated, jump straight to alignment as the answer. As V said in character, it respects Roy's integrity. Further, Neutral characters aren't necessarily oblivious to or disconnected from morality. Typically they do, as V clearly indicates, have some comprehension of right and wrong. Lacking this wouldn't make one neutral, it would make them evil.

I believe that V went to Roy for the reasons discussed above - he's V's friend, he's a leader, he's reliable. Now, regarding alignment, I believe that V is acting as a True Neutral - he made a very, very evil act so now he's trying to "pay" for that in order to bring the "balance" back on the grey areas instead of the black ones.

Now, I disagree with Sir Pippin on the "lacking comprehension of right and wrong". If you don' have such comprehension, it would make you "neutral" (as per the neutrality of the animals), not evil. Evil is KNOWING right from wrong, and choosing wrong (or dismissing right as weakness).

[factotum]

Evil is KNOWING right from wrong, and choosing wrong (or dismissing right as weakness).

Not necessarily--it's entirely possible for a person to do Evil while believing that what they are doing is right and necessary; in fact, the whole casting of Familicide in the first place arguably falls into this category.

[Math_Mage]

Just seems kind of odd that a "I'm just in it for my own personal power" Neutral character would go to a stridently Lawful Good character for moral advice.
Yeah, it's pretty odd that V went to the leader of the party, whose intelligence and leadership she acknowledged, for guidance.

Wait.


The Elven gods surely must have something to say on the subject. V and Blackwing should have had a solo back-and-forth where we got to know more about Elven culture and Neutral morality.
Does V seem particularly in touch with the elven gods to you? Or elven culture, for that matter?


Yeah, I know, I know, V respects Roy personally, and the entire alignment system is a stupid idea that should have been abandoned decades ago.
The idea that V should have dictated her choice of advisor by alignment, rather than by character and relationships, and that her failure to do so reflects the failure of the alignment system, is absurd.


But since there's nothing else to talk about in this forum anyway, if V had gone to a representative of each other alignment for spiritual advice, what would they have said?
Well, that would depend on the character, not on the alignment. Elan and Haley would respond differently. Tarquin and Redcloak would respond differently. Miko and Roy would respond differently. Your treatment of alignments as singular outlooks probably has something to do with your poor opinion of the alignment system.

[Luna_Mayflower]

Wow. I am impressed that you made such astoundingly incorrect assertions in such quick succession :)


If you're going to be unpleasant, please don't put smiles. It makes you seem malicious. Thank you.

[Kish]

Just seems kind of odd that a "I'm just in it for my own personal power" Neutral character would go to a stridently Lawful Good character for moral advice. The Elven gods surely must have something to say on the subject. V and Blackwing should have had a solo back-and-forth where we got to know more about Elven culture and Neutral morality.

Yeah, I know, I know, V respects Roy personally, and the entire alignment system is a stupid idea that should have been abandoned decades ago.

Why am I not surprised that the person treating the alignment system as a "tells you what moral stances to take" rulebook is also the person who thinks it's a stupid idea that should have been abandoned decades ago?

Here's a thought: Maybe if your concept of the alignment system includes "stupid idea that should have been abandoned decades ago," you shouldn't be surprised when that concept of the alignment system doesn't determine what characters do.

[oppyu]

Put me down as another 'personalities, not alignments'. Roy is intelligent, wise, responsible, and the ideal combination of pragmatic and conscientious. Furthermore, he's the leader of the party and V respects him. Alternatively, V could seek moral counsel from

:belkar:: Wow, you've killed more sentient beings than I've ever dreamed! I'm truly impressed by this, Killer. Excuse me, I need to go kill some sentient beings to try and catch up.

:durkon:: Aye... well, evil is relative. And really, is there anything wrong with being Evil? It's just a word. Really, I think of myself as transcending Good or Evil... if you guys try to resurrect Durkon, I will kill you all and raise the cat as my vampiric feline sidekick.

:elan:: What? How could you... what? But... what? How could you do that?! You monster!

:haley::...

Actually, Haley would be a decent choice if Roy weren't available. She isn't exactly a paragon of Good, but she's as pragmatic as Roy and she's cynical enough that learning what V did wouldn't destroy her precious innocent mind (Poor Elan).

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Put me down as another 'personalities, not alignments'. Roy is intelligent, wise, responsible, and the ideal combination of pragmatic and conscientious. Furthermore, he's the leader of the party and V respects him. Alternatively, V could seek moral counsel from

:belkar:: Wow, you've killed more sentient beings than I've ever dreamed! I'm truly impressed by this, Killer. Excuse me, I need to go kill some sentient beings to try and catch up.

:durkon:: Aye... well, evil is relative. And really, is there anything wrong with being Evil? It's just a word. Really, I think of myself as transcending Good or Evil... if you guys try to resurrect Durkon, I will kill you all and raise the cat as my vampiric feline sidekick.

:elan:: What? How could you... what? But... what? How could you do that?! You monster!

:haley::...

Actually, Haley would be a decent choice if Roy weren't available. She isn't exactly a paragon of Good, but she's as pragmatic as Roy and she's cynical enough that learning what V did wouldn't destroy her precious innocent mind (Poor Elan).
And as V's oldest friend in the Order, Haley's not a bad choice either.

However, there's the chance that discovering V's actions would destroy the relationships between V and Haley, and/or V and Elan, to the point where at least one of them would leave the party, and it'll be interesting to see if Roy tells the rest of the party exactly what happened, or only reveals bits of it when it absolutely essential to do so - like the next time the fiends grab V and leave them lacking their arcane artillery.

And...

I can see Roy and V working on a strategy to turn the fiends plans against them - maybe when they grab V for the third time, they somehow use V's location to aim a plane shift spell, and come in to both rescue V and deal with them.

[oppyu]

And as V's oldest friend in the Order, Haley's not a bad choice either.

However, there's the chance that discovering V's actions would destroy the relationships between V and Haley, and/or V and Elan, to the point where at least one of them would leave the party, and it'll be interesting to see if Roy tells the rest of the party exactly what happened, or only reveals bits of it when it absolutely essential to do so - like the next time the fiends grab V and leave them lacking their arcane artillery.

And...

I can see Roy and V working on a strategy to turn the fiends plans against them - maybe when they grab V for the third time, they somehow use V's location to aim a plane shift spell, and come in to both rescue V and deal with them.

I don't see Roy explaining everything to the party. As I mentioned above, Elan is basically pure unadulterated Good, minus any silly things like a developed sense of pragmatism. Try explaining to that kid that one of his party members is one of the worst mass-murderers of all time... and it's not Belkar. My money is on him freaking out and leaving the party, with demanding that V leave the party as a close second and Elan trying to pull a sabre and bring the criminal to justice as a distant third.

Regarding Haley, I think she'd have an easier time rationalising than Roy or Elan (she did consider herself good-ish), but it would put a strain on their friendship. Maybe Vaarsuvius didn't want that. Also, there's a chance Haley would feel obliged to tell Elan.

Regarding plane shifting to the fiends, aren't the fiends incredibly powerful? I don't know what the D&D requirements are for completely stopping time to hold a business meeting, but I imagine the IFCC would have to be fairly high-level and V would be able to pass the knowledge check to realise that.

[Chantelune]

I also wonder if Haley and V's friendship would change (or even survive) that knowledge. I doubt Haley would be fine with that, but then again, she also took some morally questionable actions herself (making a sidetrip just to kill Crystal when she's defenseless before teleporting away), so she might understand the circumstances leading V to such an act (not saying she would approve, mind you) and at least see that V now seek to redeem herself.

guess we'll see how it goes in the next strips, either with the rest of the party being told or kept in the dark.

[Lord Raziere]

Chaotic Neutral
This may be my personal interpretation but as with LN I tend to interpret CN as individuals who have a personal code or sense of morality, perhaps out of touch with that of society, that dictates their behaviour. As such I find the reaction of a CN individual difficult to fathom purely on basis of alignment, but I can't imagine it too positive.


Chaotic Neutral:
"Yea, I don't approve. Its a little TOO overkill y'know? you should've stuck to blowing them up in a spectacular manner. much more pretty for the kids to look at, and has the advantage of not ticking off random people across the globe, I mean what if one of their friends was an archmage and they wanted to know about what that black lightning was all about? You gotta be careful about your overkill or it will be TOO overkill....

[veti]

:elan:: What? How could you... what? But... what? How could you do that?! You monster!

Actually, I don't think Elan would be that judgmental. I think he'd be more sorrowed than angered. And he'd also reflect that if he'd been a better leader at that point, V may very well never have gone off on her own and laid herself open to the whole episode.

Elan, who owed V a duty of care, both as a friend and as Roy's temporary stand-in, saw how unbalanced V was becoming - and instead of trying to reach her, he washed his hands of her. For him to condemn her for what she did immediately after that, would show a level of hypocrisy that I don't think Elan's capable of.

[Morty]

Tarquin would probably deem the Familicide as irrelevant, because it was done by an unimportant supporting character and most of the victims weren't even shown on-screen.

[TriForce]

i personally am of the opinion that your question cant really be awnsered, since a alignment is just one of the many many things that make up a person, and even at that, its a very broad concept that does not say too much about a person.

roys reaction isnt a result of his alignment, its a result of roy being the person that he is. he could have been nearly any alignment and still have given the same responce, any good or neutral alignment would qualify, and in different circumstances, even some evil ones would be believable.

[Gorm_the_DBA]

Not necessarily--it's entirely possible for a person to do Evil while believing that what they are doing is right and necessary; in fact, the whole casting of Familicide in the first place arguably falls into this category.

*DOING* evil, yes.

*BEING* evil, however, no...being evil requires knowing that what you're doing is wrong, and consciously choosing to do it anyhow.

[Chantelune]

Actually, I don't think Elan would be that judgmental. I think he'd be more sorrowed than angered. And he'd also reflect that if he'd been a better leader at that point, V may very well never have gone off on her own and laid herself open to the whole episode.

Elan, who owed V a duty of care, both as a friend and as Roy's temporary stand-in, saw how unbalanced V was becoming - and instead of trying to reach her, he washed his hands of her. For him to condemn her for what she did immediately after that, would show a level of hypocrisy that I don't think Elan's capable of.

How was he ever a leader for Durkon and V at the time, intentionally or not ?

Seriously, the only thing Elan inherited from Roy at this point of the story was being Hinjo's bodyguard (a detail that even Hinjo wanted Elan to forget). Durkon was mostly going with the flow and helping the Azurites any way he could while waiting for some news to come his way about the rest of the party and V was getting obsessed with his search. Nodoby ever turned to Elan at this point for leadership and I really doubt Durkon and V even considered that Elan might fill in that role.

Even when V stated that she wanted to leave the fleet and the two of them, Durkon did turn to Elan to try and convinced V otherwise, but not because he thought Elan could have some sort of authority over her, but because Elan was the one with charisma, so mechanism wise, the one whose social modifier might have some success in convincing V. That was the essence of what Durkon said to Elan at the time. Not to "order" V to stay, but to "try and convince" her to stay.

Elan is no leader material and he knows it, so I doubt he would think "damn, if I have been a good leader at the time...". Though he might think "damn, if only I tried to convince V to stay instead of letting her go..."

[campkilkare]

roys reaction isnt a result of his alignment, its a result of roy being the person that he is. he could have been nearly any alignment and still have given the same responce, any good or neutral alignment would qualify, and in different circumstances, even some evil ones would be believable.

Partially, but Roy's response *is* colored by his alignment. A non-Lawful person wouldn't pause to worry about the legal ramifications the way he does. And just generally, his outlook is focused on taking responsibility for things and trying to set things right. He definitely approaches this through a lawful lens.

[RadagastTheBrow]

Sadly, we don't have a lot of really wise characters of Chaotic or Evil alignments. What would Shojo say about it?

[Kish]

*DOING* evil, yes.

*BEING* evil, however, no...being evil requires knowing that what you're doing is wrong, and consciously choosing to do it anyhow.
Why do you believe that?

It's certainly not from the Player's Handbook alignment descriptions. Nor does it make any sense; being unwaveringly certain of the moral correctness of hurting and killing all the people you hurt and kill is no recipe for being less than horrifically evil. (Malack, for example, likely knew his alignment since he's in a work without a fourth wall, but he certainly doesn't seem to believe he does anything wrong at any point.)

[Keltest]

Why do you believe that?

It's certainly not from the Player's Handbook alignment descriptions. Nor does it make any sense; being unwaveringly certain of the moral correctness of hurting and killing all the people you hurt and kill is no recipe for being less than horrifically evil. (Malack, for example, likely knew his alignment since he's in a work without a fourth wall, but he certainly doesn't seem to believe he does anything wrong at any point.)

I cant recall Malack ever saying that he was doing a good thing. The closest hes come is trying to justify the planned sacrifices by doing it in the name of his god, which, admittedly, is fairly compelling from his point of view. When he spawned Durkon, he even (more or less) admitted he was doing it for himself, not because he genuinely thought it would be good for Durkon.

[Kish]

Keltest, do you think Malack ever thought he was doing something wrong? If so what and when and what is your evidence?

[Keltest]

Keltest, do you think Malack ever thought he was doing something wrong? If so what and when and what is your evidence?

I don't think he cared, TBH. Certainly he never went out of his way to spite someone for the sake of it; even his beef with Nale was built on relatively legitimate grievances. I was just pointing out that Malack never acted like he wasn't in the deep end of the alignment spectrum.

[Jay R]

Who else should Vaarsuvius ask for moral advice? Some stranger, the thieving rogue, the mentally negligible bard, the vampire, or the psychopath whose reaction to V flits between lust and hate?

Edit: typo fixed.

[Lord Raziere]

Sadly, we don't have a lot of really wise characters of Chaotic or Evil alignments. What would Shojo say about it?

Shojo: well elf, I can't say I approve. At least you regret it and are trying to make amends, unlike the halfling. And considering the circumstances it could've gone far worse- you could've committed even more evil acts, or feel unrepentant about what you done. Look on the bright side: at least that is all that you did. At least now you can seek a better path and walk with clarity about what you have done and what evil is.

and now for

Redcloak: killing the entire family of one who is trying to kill your family in vengeance? I approve. We are not so different, you and I.

Xykon: Aw, I didn't get to see the fireworks, at least you did something awesome with your fake power before you lost it.

[DeliaP]

Shojo: well elf, I can't say I approve. At least you regret it and are trying to make amends, unlike the halfling. And considering the circumstances it could've gone far worse- you could've committed even more evil acts, or feel unrepentant about what you done. Look on the bright side: at least that is all that you did. At least now you can seek a better path and walk with clarity about what you have done and what evil is.

and now for

Redcloak: killing the entire family of one who is trying to kill your family in vengeance? I approve.

Xykon: Aw, I didn't get to see the fireworks, at least you did something awesome with your fake power before you lost it.

Totally agree with your Shojo characterisation.

But thank goodness Xykon, the epic necromancer lich, didn't get told about this epic necromancy "Familicide" spell.... maybe he'd be less handing out advice and more looking into research :smalleek:

[ChristianSt]

I think the other most reasonable choices to get counsel from would be the old Durkon and Haley. I personally see Vampire!Durkon as a wild card. Sure he could be more or less old Durkon, but he could also not be Durkon.

I think from a remorse standpoint V should openly confess to the whole party. Maybe he/she will actually do so. Because it is certainly possible that a large group meeting hasn't happened yet. 944 could also easily have been at the same time as the strips before it.
But since this could have large ramification, I'm not sure if that will happen,
especially in regards to the relationship of Elan and Haley - I'm not even sure how they would react. Imo both would be more than shocked to hear about it. Since I think V truly shows his/her remorse about what was done, I think Elan and Haley could get over with it.

On the other hand there are 2 books left, so the shaken relationships could be a major plot point in the next book.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

I don't see Roy explaining everything to the party. As I mentioned above, Elan is basically pure unadulterated Good, minus any silly things like a developed sense of pragmatism. Try explaining to that kid that one of his party members is one of the worst mass-murderers of all time... and it's not Belkar. My money is on him freaking out and leaving the party, with demanding that V leave the party as a close second and Elan trying to pull a sabre and bring the criminal to justice as a distant third.

Regarding Haley, I think she'd have an easier time rationalising than Roy or Elan (she did consider herself good-ish), but it would put a strain on their friendship. Maybe Vaarsuvius didn't want that. Also, there's a chance Haley would feel obliged to tell Elan.

I don't know about Elan - he could go that way, or he could go as veti suggested - he may view himself as at least partially responsible.

Don't forget, he's basically stood by Belkar, even after Belkar tried to kill him for XPs. About the only person he's ever thought irredeemable is Tarquin, and even then, we saw in the illusion that he still on some level wanted him to be redeemed - it's only really his murder of Nale that finally brought Elan to that conclusion.

End of the day, I think he'll look to Roy and Haley - if Roy does fully explain (and I don't know whether he will) and they're ok with V staying in the Order, he'll go along with it.

Another thing to consider is that Roy does know that there was some sub-contracting going on, even if V's not mentioned that (there's no real reason not to IMO), and he's smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and get a number not too far from 4. Although he may think that they influenced V, even though we and V know he didn't, and V's probably told Roy that (again, no real reason not to).

And regarding your spoiler to my spoiler.

I can't see V standing by letting the fiends get their full money's worth without trying to fight back, not with reality on the line. And while the Order may not be powerful enough themselves to face down the fiends (and I didn't consider it myself until now), there's still the card to play of whatever Roy agreed with Roy's Archon - given the fiends are attempting to raise the level of Evil on OOTS-world, maybe the forces of Good will get involved against them.

Or perhaps evil is not a happy family will really kick in and the IFCC will wind up collapsing as they fight amongst themselves. Or Sabine will bring together the posthumous-Linear Guild to overthrow them (including all the Y*ky*k's Belkar's sent down there).

Or (another possibility I hadn't considered before) maybe it'll just be Faust-suvius, and Celia will return at Roy's request to help V out (did she give him another talisman, or does V need to borrow Julio's sending wand and get her to plane shift over to discuss things?).

Basically, I just think that we'll see fun and fireworks down in the Fiend's lounge at some point.

[SavageWombat]

The poster's question reminds me of an article I read somewhere - it was either here, in the RPG thread, or linked to from there. Anyway-

The point of the article was that the classic alignment grid is defined by someone who is in fact LG, or at least considers that to be society ideal. If the grid were designed by someone who we'd call "LE", the Good/Evil axis would be replaced by something like a Weak/Strong axis. A Neutral society's grid might replace Law/Chaos with "Oppressive/Intemperant".

V has always seemed to me like someone who is N not because he values neutrality, but because he does not exert himself to goodness. His perception of what goodness is would be pretty similar to Roy's.

[Greatmoustache]

The poster's question reminds me of an article I read somewhere - it was either here, in the RPG thread, or linked to from there. Anyway-

The point of the article was that the classic alignment grid is defined by someone who is in fact LG, or at least considers that to be society ideal. If the grid were designed by someone who we'd call "LE", the Good/Evil axis would be replaced by something like a Weak/Strong axis. A Neutral society's grid might replace Law/Chaos with "Oppressive/Intemperant".

what if CE was the ground zero? nerd/badass?

or for CG? how about luke skyhumper/darth person?

[factotum]

*DOING* evil, yes.

*BEING* evil, however, no...being evil requires knowing that what you're doing is wrong, and consciously choosing to do it anyhow.

No it doesn't. The characters in OotS all know their own alignments, so there aren't any really good examples from this, but literature is littered with people who are dyed-in-the-wool Evil without ever considering themselves as such--the lead character from "Breaking Bad", for example.

[Kish]

what if CE was the ground zero? nerd/badass?

Smart (CE), Stupid Goody-goody (CG), Stupid Anal (LE), and Really Stupid (LG).

[Bulldog Psion]

In the last analysis, Roy is the leader of the Order. V could be taken out of any fight at least two more times, with no warning. This is tactical information of the highest urgency when going to what they believe is the climactic battle of their quest. It is only natural that V should share this data with the Order's leader, regardless of his alignment.

From there, they clearly just segued into discussing what to do about V and Familicide, which is only to be expected once the tactical portion of the conversation is finished. So, voila, there's how V "chose" a lawful good "counselor." By making a report on crucial tactical information to her leader, then discussing the personal moral implications once business was complete.

It wasn't "choosing a counselor" at all to begin with, so the question of why V didn't go to a chaotic neutral gnome psychologist instead is answered not by analyzing "why pick lawful good" but by answering "why is it a bad idea to waste time looking for a psychologist of a particular alignment rather than telling your military leader information vital to saving the world from destruction."

[RadagastTheBrow]

Shojo: well elf, I can't say I approve. At least you regret it and are trying to make amends, unlike the halfling. And considering the circumstances it could've gone far worse- you could've committed even more evil acts, or feel unrepentant about what you done. Look on the bright side: at least that is all that you did. At least now you can seek a better path and walk with clarity about what you have done and what evil is.

and now for

Redcloak: killing the entire family of one who is trying to kill your family in vengeance? I approve. We are not so different, you and I.

Xykon: Aw, I didn't get to see the fireworks, at least you did something awesome with your fake power before you lost it.

Nicely done! I think that CG approach may help, actually- "We all make mistakes, some more monstrously horrifying than others. We're always making the best of a less than great situation. Remorse and move on."

On a side tangent, though, I don't know that Xykon counts as super-wise- I'd see "Wise Chaotic Evil" as more of an enabler of terror who hides in the shadows than Captain Blast Harder.

[Ridureyu]

I don't know what there is to debate. I mean, they're dragons, right? And dragons are always bad. You are supposed to kill always-evil races.

I kid, I kid. I am not in favor of genocide, but someone was going to bring this up anyway, so it might as well be from a guy who doesn't believe in mass-slaughter.

[FujinAkari]

If you're going to be unpleasant, please don't put smiles. It makes you seem malicious. Thank you.

I have been told, repeatedly, that the use of smilies indicates humor and that a phrase accompanied with smiles should NOT be interpreted as unpleasant.

[Anarion]

Xykon's wisdom is of the "wouldn't have lived that long and have that much power if he wasn't doing something right" variety. That might boil down to him advising people to be willing to go to any length to acquire power, which isn't good advice, but you could probably distill something about style from the guy, and about planning appropriately to your overall power. I dunno, he's not really admirable, but I find him hard to dismiss, despite his bluntness.

Anyway, to go back to the main point of this thread, I think Roy is the only real choice. Going to anyone other than Roy could be interpreted as hiding wrongdoing from the party leader, and on top of it, Roy actually is pretty wise and thoughtful, even for something as overwhelming as familicide.

[Starbuck_II]

I have been told, repeatedly, that the use of smilies indicates humor and that a phrase accompanied with smiles should NOT be interpreted as unpleasant.

Sarcasm tags seem more appropriate, no? :smalltongue:

[Koo Rehtorb]

Alignment is stupid and should have been abandoned long ago. That said, this isn't really the sort of thing that alignment should cover except in the very broad sense that LG and CE characters probably wouldn't have compatible personalities anyway.

Just for fun though here's a random sample of possible responses based on characters I've played from various alignments.

Lawful Good
This happened because you're a chaotic jackass that doesn't put the slightest bit of thought into self-reflection or philosophy. As soon as possible you should sit down for a few months, meditate on what you did and your own flaws. After that, as the scope was really too broad to give to any one mortal court, you should probably find an important representative of whatever god you worship, confess everything, and ask that they pass judgement on you.

Neutral Good
This was a terrible thing, but I know you aren't a bad person. You made a mistake, everyone makes mistakes, yours was just far more serious than most people's. You're going to do your best to be a good person from now on and I know you can do it. I believe in you.

Chaotic Good
Why are you asking me about this? The only person you're responsible to is your own conscience. Figure it out yourself, and if I ever catch you slipping back down the path that led you to this then I'll kill you myself.

Lawful Neutral
Find a proper, lawful, ideal and cause and devote the rest of your misbegotten life to it.

Chaotic Neutral
Whatever. Do what you gotta do. You probably went a bit overboard with this, get your **** in order and learn the value of restraint. You didn't need this spell to kill your enemy, you were just showboating.

Lawful Evil
You didn't think about the possible backlash from casting such magic on a species known to have a great number of hybrid offspring with other races? You fool.

Neutral Evil
You could have easily hit people who are important to you, or even yourself, with this. Think before you act and if you're going to cast this then at least do your research enough to get a decent idea of the collateral damage involved.

Chaotic Evil
That's pretty funny. Seems a bit unsatisfying, though, considering that you never saw most of the bodies hitting the floor with your own eyes.

[Finagle]

Just for fun though here's a random sample of possible responses based on characters I've played from various alignments.
Bravo! Well-said.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think V told Roy first because their relationship is the most professional, and s/he wouldn't mind being hated by Roy. On the other hand, Haley and Durkon were actual friends of V and them thinking negatively of V might be too much for him/her to handle. At least at the moment.

[SlyJohnny]

Eh? Why wouldn't a neutral person turn to a person they consider Good to seek moral guidance? When I'm second guessing my decisions (as a Neutral or Chaotic Neutral person, myself) I seek out friends who I consider to be better people then I am. Religions form powerbases around people's desire to to have a moral authority to turn to for guidance.

[Chantelune]

In the last analysis, Roy is the leader of the Order. V could be taken out of any fight at least two more times, with no warning. This is tactical information of the highest urgency when going to what they believe is the climactic battle of their quest. It is only natural that V should share this data with the Order's leader, regardless of his alignment.

From there, they clearly just segued into discussing what to do about V and Familicide, which is only to be expected once the tactical portion of the conversation is finished. So, voila, there's how V "chose" a lawful good "counselor." By making a report on crucial tactical information to her leader, then discussing the personal moral implications once business was complete.

It wasn't "choosing a counselor" at all to begin with, so the question of why V didn't go to a chaotic neutral gnome psychologist instead is answered not by analyzing "why pick lawful good" but by answering "why is it a bad idea to waste time looking for a psychologist of a particular alignment rather than telling your military leader information vital to saving the world from destruction."

Though V stated immediately that when she went for Roy for guidance, she "was not primarily concerned with the resultant tactical implication". Meaning she went to Roy for moral counseling first and tactical input second (or maybe further).

So yeah, Roy being the leader was a factor, as much as him being an upstanding and good person, but saying she went to him just for discussing tactics and the future battles doesn't sit quite right.

[Bird]

Chaotic Evil
That's pretty funny. Seems a bit unsatisfying, though, considering that you never saw most of the bodies hitting the floor with your own eyes.
This is a great summation of the attitude of a Belkar or Xykon kind of CE, yeah.

It'd be somewhat different for the (majority of) CE folks, who have friends, and don't necessarily run around constantly murdering people. Most would be overwhelmed by or fearful of what Vaarsuvius did -- notably, all three of the fiends were initially dumbstruck by it.

[Bulldog Psion]

Though V stated immediately that when she went for Roy for guidance, she "was not primarily concerned with the resultant tactical implication". Meaning she went to Roy for moral counseling first and tactical input second (or maybe further).

So yeah, Roy being the leader was a factor, as much as him being an upstanding and good person, but saying she went to him just for discussing tactics and the future battles doesn't sit quite right.

That's what I get for focusing on what Roy said. :smallbiggrin:

*Dons large economy size dunce cap and goes out whistling*

[SavageWombat]

It's interesting that V went to Roy with a question that boiled down to "I wondered what your opinion on what I should do is" and Roy immediately turned it to "what should I (Roy) do about it?"

I wonder if V is really concerned with whether Roy thinks he should turn him over to authorities or something, since ultimately V would be the one deciding whether to surrender or not. I don't know that I think that V's "I value your counsel" is the same as "I submit to your judgment."

Just a passing thought.

[snikrept]

Wise and also evil is a very hard combination to write, seems like. One hardly ever sees that in fantasy literature.

Clever and evil, sure -- there are a lot of magnificent bastards out there. Wise is a lot tougher.

[Jan Mattys]

Wise and also evil is a very hard combination to write, seems like. One hardly ever sees that in fantasy literature.

Clever and evil, sure -- there are a lot of magnificent bastards out there. Wise is a lot tougher.

The one that comes to mind to me is
your Master in Jade Empire

[Benthesquid]

What would a Neutral counselor have said? What if V went to Scoundrel and laid his problems out? What about Tarquin?

Scoundrel: "Er... yeah. I don't really do heavy philosophical questions. I'm more of a sweep through the window and save the damsel kind of guy."

Tarquin: "Now that you're locked safely in this Anti-Magic Cell, we can talk about how you got that sort of phenomenal power, and how we can lure my son back here to save you. Kilkil, fetch the instruments. And play some opera. Good villainous background music is essential for a torture scene."

[123456789blaaa]

The one that comes to mind to me is
your Master in Jade Empire

Emperor Palpatine maybe? I mean yeah he messed up at the end but wise doesn't mean perfect.

[Kish]

In both the three movies that actually exist and the three movies that don't exist, he acted like an idiotic cartoon villain. The fact that George Lucas wrote Luke Skywalker as the only person in the universe smart enough to deduce, "I should not do what the villain just loudly announced he wants me to do" doesn't mean Palpatine was ever believably written as a skilled deceiver.

[The Pilgrim]

Lawful Evil
The deliberateness of familicide would probably resonate the most with this alignment, if not for the legal issues that Roy brought up. LE is often defined as exploiting, yet working within, the system. A flagrant disregard of so many legal territories might be out of character with the alignment.

Lawful Evil

Were you caught doing it?
No?
Then, where's the problem?

Now let's see if we can rephrase your deal with the Fiends so we can call the debt void.

[druid91]

Note: Use of male identifiers does not constitute a belief in, nor imply knowledge thereof, V being of a male gender. The English language has patriarchal roots therefore I simply defaulted to male.

Technically speaking male pronouns such as Him, He, His and their derivatives are not male but gender neutral. Her, She, Hers are exclusively female, but the reverse is not also true. Unlike, for example, Spanish.

One reason I never got the Xir, Hir, thing. That and the existence of They, Them, and Theirs, even if they implies a group.

[veti]

How was he ever a leader for Durkon and V at the time, intentionally or not ?

He was self-appointed as Roy's stand-in. Both V and Durkon have dump-level CHA, Elan was the only one with enough personality to keep the three of them together. (And he knew it, which is why he tried to, up to a point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html).) But after the Kubota incident, he just gave up. And for that, he might blame himself.


The one that comes to mind to me is
your Master in Jade Empire

Note: spoiler applies to the game 'Jade Empire'. Really, there's not much point including the spoiler tag unless you mention that...

And yes, you're right, he's definitely got a pretty solid WIS score (as a monk, presumably he's put all his stat gains into that...) - he's perceptive, incredibly good at reading people and very patient.

Even so, he has some remarkable blind spots. He knows that the Water Dragon is guiding you, he knows she knows about him, and he knows what she is and what she can do - but he completely fails to anticipate what she does eventually do. And he fails to realise the importance of hunting down your followers after killing you.

These are serious failures, and I think they both fall within the WIS domain.

[b_jonas]

Although Varsaavius asked Roy for advice, Roy is effectively repeating the advice Belkar (chaotic evil) gave him in strip #881 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html). Roy uses a very different communication style of course, which probably makes it more likely that Varsaavius listens, but the content is actually the same as what Belkar told.

[Benthesquid]

Technically speaking male pronouns such as Him, He, His and their derivatives are not male but gender neutral. Her, She, Hers are exclusively female, but the reverse is not also true. Unlike, for example, Spanish.

One reason I never got the Xir, Hir, thing. That and the existence of They, Them, and Theirs, even if they implies a group.

Two main reasons

A) Because there are people who would like to be identified by a pronoun which does not imply maleness (as he, him, his do), femaleness (she, her, hers), or objectness (it, it, its).
B) Because there are people who believe that the use of the previous listed male pronouns as a default promotes the idea of masculinity as a norm and feminity as an exception or other, and who likewise believe that this is undesirable.

[123456789blaaa]

In both the three movies that actually exist and the three movies that don't exist, he acted like an idiotic cartoon villain. The fact that George Lucas wrote Luke Skywalker as the only person in the universe smart enough to deduce, "I should not do what the villain just loudly announced he wants me to do" doesn't mean Palpatine was ever believably written as a skilled deceiver.

Well yes but my point is that he was meant to fit the archetype of "wise evil guy".

[Bird]

Although Varsaavius asked Roy for advice, Roy is effectively repeating the advice Belkar (chaotic evil) gave him in strip #881 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html). Roy uses a very different communication style of course, which probably makes it more likely that Varsaavius listens, but the content is actually the same as what Belkar told.
That's a great point. Even granting that Belkar has had some character development, it shows that Roy's advice isn't purely contingent on alignment.

[Keltest]

In both the three movies that actually exist and the three movies that don't exist, he acted like an idiotic cartoon villain. The fact that George Lucas wrote Luke Skywalker as the only person in the universe smart enough to deduce, "I should not do what the villain just loudly announced he wants me to do" doesn't mean Palpatine was ever believably written as a skilled deceiver.

I never read Palpatine as a deceiver, great or otherwise. His thing was telling people how to solve their problems by way of forbidden fruit. It becomes more reasonable if you think of the Dark Side as literally addictive, instead of the metaphorical "you cant ever come back" garbage, since quite obviously people HAVE come back, both in the EU and the original trilogy.

[Lord Raziere]

also a reminder that lawful good doesn't mean good counselor:

:miko:: You committed an evil act!? DIE EVILDOER!

[oppyu]

also a reminder that lawful good doesn't mean good counselor:

:miko:: You committed an evil act!? DIE EVILDOER!
:miko:: I cannot ignore your consort with fiends. I do, however, commend your service in ridding the land of many of the black dragons. Familicide was surely a right and just spell, even though you allied yourself with Evil to do so. Now, back to me killing you.

[Bird]

:miko:: I cannot ignore your consort with fiends. I do, however, commend your service in ridding the land of many of the black dragons. Familicide was surely a right and just spell, even though you allied yourself with Evil to do so. Now, back to me killing you.
I think that's too far, even for Miko. Even if she approved of killing the black dragons, she wouldn't approve of killing all the dragon-related folks by association. She isn't Kore from Goblins.

[Tragak]

Roy uses a very different communication style of course, which probably makes it more likely that Varsaavius listens, but the content is actually the same as what Belkar told. Wow, I had completely missed that. Nice.

What about Tarquin?
Tarquin would probably deem the Familicide as irrelevant, because it was done by an unimportant supporting character and most of the victims weren't even shown on-screen. Hmmmmm...

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png Nobody kills my wives except me! Laurin, Myron, anti-magic fields! I will kill him/her/it myself!

:vaarsuvius: First, General, would you be interested in a message that I discovered to have been left by your late fiancé? It's an illusion scroll showing a codeword that you must read in order to activate the image and last words of the person on whose behalf the spell was cast. Surely, a man in your position would like to torture the conscience of your captive by reminding me of the innocents that have suffered for my stupidity?

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png (realizing that the scene must be dramatically significant for V to have said so much in the time that it took Tarquin to draw his sword) Fair enough. Let me see that. "Explosive ..."

BOOOOOOM!

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png You have humiliated me for the last time!

:vaarsuvius: No, the last time that I humiliate will be when I acquire your allies' services for the purpose of protecting me from your retribution. (Myron, Laurin, and Jacinda start paying attention) Myron, however much value you have gathered in material wealth in your significant life; Laurin, however much security that you feel you have guaranteed for your offspring; Jacinda, however many sentient prey you feel that you feel that your current situation allows you to execute for sport; I assure you that it is in my power to grant all of this to you 100% over in comparison to the alternative of letting your "leader" indulge in his childish super-villain fantasies here and now.

(Tarquin draws his sword) :laurin: Decelerate (Tarquin slows and becomes angry at her betrayal) Please elaborate, elf.

:vaarsuvius: The world that we live in - that you protect your daughter in, that Myron gathers his wealth in, and that Jacinda hunts her prey in - is in danger of being unmade at a sub-atomic level by an Epic level Lich Sorcerer and a near-Epic level Goblin Cleric of the Dark One. If the world perishes because I was not able to aid my allies in it's protection, then you all will lose 100% of what you keep in this world, but if you let me go, then you will all keep 100% of what you have in this world. Tarquin might lose his sense of personal vengeance, but is that truly as important to your welfare as he likes to take the credit for?

:laurin: (reads Vaarsuvius's mind for all relevant information relating to Xykon and the Gates; she Wormholes herself, Jacinda, and Myron out; they come back one minute later) Thank you elf. Xykon is destroyed, and you may die with the comfort of knowing that your information has protected the world from the Gates.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png NOOOOOOOOOOO! HE/SHE/IT DOESN'T DESERVE TO DIE COMFORTED LIKE THAT!!!

:vaarsuvius: lol

[Lord Raziere]

I dunno.

Miko strikes me as the type where if you were confronted with a choice to kill a child or let the world be blown up, she would kill you no matter what you did. kill the child? killing children is EVIL! Die evildoer! let the world be blown up,but somehow both of you survive? Letting the world be blown up is EVIL! Die evildoer!

there is no moral complexity to her. allying with Evil is Evil. Committing an Evil act is Evil. she wouldn't commend V, she would just kill her for committing an evil act, no matter reason. her alignment is Stupid Paladin. not Stupid Utilitarian. Stupid Utilitarian would be Redcloak- "I did evil and allied with evil, but it was for a good cause! which just so happened to involve killing a lot of people and their families to."

Miko is "All Evil Shall Die. No Matter What." I don't think she would be able to reason as far as allying with Evil to defeat Evil- she could've after all, allied with Sabine to become a blackguard, then use the Blackguard's powers to break out and kill the people she deemed evil with the Blackguards evil powers. but she didn't. so I don't think Miko can even reason as far as utilitarian thinking.

[Forum Explorer]

Who else should Vaarsuvius ask for moral advice? Some stranger, the thieving rogue, the mentally negligible bard, the vampire, or the psychopath whose reaction to V flits between lust and hat?

V isn't a kobold. :smalltongue: :smallwink:



Anyways I can't believe no one has done this yet,

LE: So you killed all of those Black Dragons? Wow. Now if you excuse me I've got something I need to do.

Attention all evil dragons and followers of Tiamat! The bidding war for location of the mass murderer V will now begin! Remember bids are in 10 000s of GPs only.

[Rosstin]

V went to Roy because Roy is the leader, and a wise and intelligent person who gives good advice.

Maybe V didn't go to Haley because V knew that Haley would be too accepting and V instinctively wanted to be judged by the person with the most authority. It's what I would have done if I'd done something horribly wrong and sought punishment, redemption, advice.

[Koo Rehtorb]

This is a great summation of the attitude of a Belkar or Xykon kind of CE, yeah.

It'd be somewhat different for the (majority of) CE folks, who have friends, and don't necessarily run around constantly murdering people. Most would be overwhelmed by or fearful of what Vaarsuvius did -- notably, all three of the fiends were initially dumbstruck by it.

Well I mean sure, all of these things are skipping the initial "what?!" reaction and are taking place some time after people have calmed down and at least had a chance to think about it.

[cheesecake]

My thing is, when Playing D&D the alignment system is a blast! My characters always swerved towards chaotic of some assortment. Thats just how I like to play. I was the role player of the group. If my halfing whatever was Chaotic evil, well, he played his part. Sometimes to the demise of my fellow party members. I considered the motives, my gains, and losses of every decision. Same goes for any alignment. My favorite to play was Chaotic Good. I wasn't evil, I wouldn't out right kill you for your gear, but it left it more open. Those characters were out for themselves, but wouldn't totally throw you under the bus if there wasn't any other option.

In the comic everyone seems to pigeon hole each character. If you go back to the comic where Roy is being judged. She tells him something along the lines of no one would bat an eye if I threw your case over to neutral. She talks about his tendency towards chaotic when solving some problems. But guess what Roy is still Lawful Good.

[ChristianSt]

V isn't a kobold. :smalltongue: :smallwink:

Maybe V is two kobolds?

[Keltest]

Maybe V is two kobolds?

V is obviously a kobold working with Durkon-who-is-Trigak.

[Taelas]

*DOING* evil, yes.

*BEING* evil, however, no...being evil requires knowing that what you're doing is wrong, and consciously choosing to do it anyhow.

This is about as wrong as it is possible to be while still forming words into a correct sentence.

[Vinyadan]

Just seems kind of odd that a "I'm just in it for my own personal power" Neutral character would go to a stridently Lawful Good character for moral advice. The Elven gods surely must have something to say on the subject. V and Blackwing should have had a solo back-and-forth where we got to know more about Elven culture and Neutral morality.

Yeah, I know, I know, V respects Roy personally, and the entire alignment system is a stupid idea that should have been abandoned decades ago. But since there's nothing else to talk about in this forum anyway, if V had gone to a representative of each other alignment for spiritual advice, what would they have said?

I am no alignment expert, so here is one idea for possible reaction. Each alignment likely has more than one possibility. Also, the Chaotic ax may tend south.

NG: You did what?! And now we also cannot count on you, because you could be taken away again. But still, I have to do something for you. I can't send you away. You deserve a second chance.

CG: That's no problem that you could disappear, but how could you do that? I think we don't have enough of a bond to let you stay. What if they also can make you do things? What if you did that again? How much is it right to care about you now, when I don't really know who or what you are, or were, or have became, and what you could do to us?

LN: However abhorrent, we need you. But we'll also take precautions against you.

NN: Interesting, interesting. Well, that's some info. The real question here,
however, is: how does this impact my personal quest?

CN: Hey, we all make mistakes from time to time. I mean, yours was gigantic and horrible and likely your soul will be torn from your body and forever damned, but, you know, that's your problem, not mine!

LE: And I suppose we learned something about consequences today. If it hadn't been for your idiocy, the phantasm would likely have been no trouble. Next time you feel like being that stupid, ask for my permission first. And, if you don't, I'll have you remember about that.

NE: And you said they only do that once a century? Pity. I already had some idea.

CE: High five, man! Are you free later tonight?

[Amphiox]

Well yes but my point is that he was meant to fit the archetype of "wise evil guy".

Well, I always thought his deception was pretty well pulled off in Phantom Menace, but that was mostly because the fine details were all off-screen, leaving the viewer free to *imagine* them to his or her liking.

But that said, one doesn't actually *need* to be very wise to pull off a deceiver scam. One just needs a good combination of INT and CHA.


These are serious failures, and I think they both fall within the WIS domain.

Regarding Jade Empire. Of course, if he DIDN'T make those mistakes and have those flaws, the game would have been over at the midpoint and the bad guy would have won.

I think it quite likely that Elan's, and possibly Haley's, reaction if V had told them would have been *shocked look on face* followed by *stunned silence*.

[cybishop]

Agree with most people here - Roy is a fine choice for V. to talk to about this, both at the moment and in general - but wanted to talk about the potential reactions a bit.

As for Elan, I think he'd be more accepting than most people so far seem to. He'd be freaked out, true, but so was Roy. Once upon a time he would have been horrified, but he has had a lot of character development over the current story arc. He's become smart enough to realize that stories aren't everything, and his father's offer of help wouldn't be good in the long run. Likewise, even though it would make him feel sick to continue to work with V., the fact that V. has been trying to do the right thing ever since Familicide would matter to him.

Belkar, on the other hand, would not be nearly so blasé. He's had character development recently as well. He understands bonds of caring for someone, and is starting to understand doing the right thing even when it's not easy (in that he saw Durkon do it). Also, his killing has been purely for fun and hand-to-hand. Learning about wholesale slaughter like this would be almost as confusing for him as it is for anyone else. Think of the Comedian and Ozymandias.

I'm also curious how V. and Roy will handle the secret. Most likely, they'll keep it a secret. It seems like a confessional in this strip, the characters are unsure of how the others would react to it, and V. wouldn't be as interested in the opinions of the others. (And, narratively, devoting several strips to the reaction would drag a bit.) It might be hard to explain how V. and Roy know certain things, though. And I assume the rest will find out eventually, somehow, and when and how they find out could really color their reactions.

[Chantelune]

I'm also curious how V. and Roy will handle the secret. Most likely, they'll keep it a secret. It seems like a confessional in this strip, the characters are unsure of how the others would react to it, and V. wouldn't be as interested in the opinions of the others. (And, narratively, devoting several strips to the reaction would drag a bit.) It might be hard to explain how V. and Roy know certain things, though. And I assume the rest will find out eventually, somehow, and when and how they find out could really color their reactions.

At this point of the story, I don't see how they could consider keeping it a secret. If only for tactical sake. Before the snatch, V thought she would need to pay her debt after her death, so though the deed weighted on her conscience once she found out the true extent of Familicide, she had no reason to tell the other beyond seeking advice. It had little to no impact on the coming battles, or so she thought.

But now, she and Roy knows that not only can the IFCC snatch away V's soul whenever they want it, but also that they're keen to do it to disrupt their effort in beating Xykon. As such, there's a good chance that they might do that right in the heat of battle. Not telling the rest of the order and them seeing V being disabled in battle with no apparent reason have good chance to confuse them and wreck havok on their side.

Maybe they won't tell them all the truth, but from a tactical point of view, the whole party need to be ready for the worst : V's being disabled in the fight versus Xykon.

[oppyu]

They probably will be told a partly true version; in order to reunite the party, V made an incredibly poor long-term decision and made a Faustian pact, and now a few fiends with an ambiguous interest in the Gates have two windows in which they can completely disable V. They don't have to mention V's family, or the genocide thing, or the completely disabling the defences around Girard's gate which led to a long and bloody series of confrontations in which Durkon was horribly murdered.

[b_jonas]

I'm also curious how V. and Roy will handle the secret. Most likely, they'll keep it a secret.

I'm not quite sure in this, but I think Varsaavius will tell everything to Haley. It might be difficult for her to handle it, but she is Varsaavius's friend and it's better if she knows. They probably won't tell Belkar though.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I want to see Vaarsuvius tell everyone about Familicide. First, I want to see what reactions the various members of the group, and second because I think that coming clean is an important step in Vaarsuvius's redemption.

[Scow2]

Well... while the Lawful response is "Always keep the action in mind, and try to do better - never forget", I found the chaotic response/advice to such a situation!

♫Though I've never been through hell like that♪ I've closed enough windows to know you can never look back♫ If you're lost and alone♪ Or you're sinking like a stone♫Carry on♫ May your past be the sound♪Of your feet upon the ground♫ Carry on♫

[Jay R]

LG: I don’t know if you can be redeemed or not, but right now is not the time. We need to save the world, and we need your help. Let’s go.
NG: I don’t know if you can be redeemed or not, but right now is not the time. We need to save the world, and we need your help. Let’s go.
CG: I don’t know if you can be redeemed or not, but right now is not the time. We need to save the world, and we need your help. Let’s go.

LN: I don’t care if you can be redeemed or not, but right now is not the time. We'll all die unless we can to save the world, and we need your help. Let’s go.
TN: I don’t care if you can be redeemed or not, but right now is not the time. We'll all die unless we can to save the world, and we need your help. Let’s go.
CN: I don’t care if you can be redeemed or not, but right now is not the time. We'll all die unless we can to save the world, and we need your help. Let’s go.

LE: I don’t care about redemption at all. I'll die unless we can to save the world, and we need your help. Let’s go.
NE: I don’t care about redemption at all. I'll die unless we can to save the world, and we need your help. Let’s go.
CE: I don’t care about redemption at all. I'll die unless we can to save the world, and we need your help. Let’s go.

[Haar]

I think the only other reliable person in which V could confide at the time, Durkon, is currently in an unknown state of mind. If he hadn't been turned into a vampire I imagine V would have gone to him instead, or asked for both of them to hear the story.

I mean, who else is there to turn to? Belkar would say "keep it up", Haley and Elan I imagine wouldn't be able to input anything useful (Maybe Haley, a little), and who else is on the ship? A bunch of unimportant NPCs who would probably scream and run at the very thought of Familicide.

I guess what I'm saying is, it doesn't matter what other alignments would say, because due to the situation, the only realistic option V has to turn to is a Lawful Good character.

[Lexible]

Just seems kind of odd that a "I'm just in it for my own personal power" Neutral character would go to a stridently Lawful Good character for moral advice. The Elven gods surely must have something to say on the subject. V and Blackwing should have had a solo back-and-forth where we got to know more about Elven culture and Neutral morality.

Yeah, I know, I know, V respects Roy personally, and the entire alignment system is a stupid idea that should have been abandoned decades ago. But since there's nothing else to talk about in this forum anyway, if V had gone to a representative of each other alignment for spiritual advice, what would they have said?



Did you make the same complaint when ve went to the 'Broad Continuum of Evil" fiend coalition for access to power?

[Jay R]

Just seems kind of odd that a "I'm just in it for my own personal power" Neutral character would go to a stridently Lawful Good character for moral advice.

Who else? An Evil person is opposed to morality, and a Neutral one is likely to give advice not focused on morality at all.

Similarly, if you want advice on applying a system, you should ask somebody Lawful.

Also, Roy is the only person whose opinion Vaarsuvius has consistently respected.

[hamishspence]

Who else? An Evil person is opposed to morality, and a Neutral one is likely to give advice not focused on morality at all.

Some Evil characters are extremely moralistic - just hypocritical, or their moral code has one particular facet (or more) that is Evil rather than Good or Neutral.

[SowZ]

*DOING* evil, yes.

*BEING* evil, however, no...being evil requires knowing that what you're doing is wrong, and consciously choosing to do it anyhow.

No, it doesn't. Some of the most Evil people in the world have believed they are good people doing necessary things.

[Jay R]

Some Evil characters are extremely moralistic - just hypocritical, or their moral code has one particular facet (or more) that is Evil rather than Good or Neutral.

But that's just as good a reason not to go to an Evil character for moral advice.

[SavageWombat]

Some Evil characters are extremely moralistic - just hypocritical, or their moral code has one particular facet (or more) that is Evil rather than Good or Neutral.

My wife once played an extremely moralistic evil character. The guy playing the CG paladin could not wrap his brain around it.

[veti]

Did you make the same complaint when ve went to the 'Broad Continuum of Evil" fiend coalition for access to power?

she didn't. They came to her.

[SowZ]

My wife once played an extremely moralistic evil character. The guy playing the CG paladin could not wrap his brain around it.

You'd think playing a Paladin of Objectivism Freedom would mean he isn't tied to traditional Alignment ideas.

[SavageWombat]

You'd think playing a Paladin of Objectivism Freedom would mean he isn't tied to traditional Alignment ideas.

That's probably what freaked him out so much. :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

You'd think playing a Paladin of Objectivism Freedom would mean he isn't tied to traditional Alignment ideas.

Even Evil has standards, I guess.