Hilarious Fluff-Mechanic Interactions

[Vrock_Summoner]

This thread is *not* about contradictions. Don't post something like "fighters are supposed to be greatest warriors but they suck"; for one thing, done to death so not even amusing any more, but more importantly, it isn't really concrete fluff and it doesn't really even interact with the mechanics.

This is for things that just come out funny when fluff and mechanics interact in ways that may have even been intended but are just wrong in practice.

I'm finding this exceedingly difficult to put in to words, so I'll give an example to illustrate the kinds of interactions I'm looking for.

So, the fluff. Dragons are extremely territorial. They tend to kill adventurers just for approaching, and more importantly to the interaction, they get into life-or-death battles with other dragons (even those of the same alignment) as a response to said other dragons so much as flying in their airspace. This is a fairly well-established fact...

... Except that dragons are utterly inept at fighting one another. Two great beasts embodying the very manifestation of power and creativity... But the fight between them might never get anywhere.

I mean, a less offensive issue at least is that they're extremely unlikely to be effected by each other's magic; the idea that great, powerful dragons can handle draconic spellcasting better than most mortals is okay to me. Then you get to everything else, though.

Dragons of equal age category (especially Young Adults, but the condition continues) get pretty hilariously nerfed by each others' DR to the point where battles consisting of full attacks will be dealing an average of, oh, 6 points per round (again using the Young Adult example) meaning that fight would be tedious, uneventful, and last at least 2 and a half minutes of the equivalent of tiny scratches on each other; that level of damage would be terribly visually unimpressive. And dragons wouldn't normally fight like this, they'd be doing fly-bys.

This isn't even mitigated by breath weapon, because if they live near enough to fight each other they probably have the same type of breath weapon and are thus immune to each other.

So yeah, I find that exceptionally hilarious how dull, drawn-out, and unimpressive a supposedly common battle between creatures treated by fantasy as practical demigods would really be. Their own strengths are basically completely nullified by each other until some sort of spell to make natural attacks magical is used. And these guys don't tend to have the Druid-y options for doing that.

What kind of funny interaction fails have you guys spotted between fluff and the mechanics like this?

[Diarmuid]

Dragons of equal age category (especially Young Adults, but the condition continues) get pretty hilariously nerfed by each others' DR to the point where battles consisting of full attacks will be dealing an average of, oh, 6 points per round (again using the Young Adult example) meaning that fight would be tedious, uneventful, and last at least 2 and a half minutes of the equivalent of tiny scratches on each other; that level of damage would be terribly visually unimpressive. And dragons wouldn't normally fight like this, they'd be doing fly-bys.

You do understand that a creature with DR is able to bypass the kind of DR it has with it's natural weapons by default, right?

So those two young adult dragons with DR 5/Magic, are both capable of completely bypassing each other's DR.

[Rubik]

Does monks not being proficient in their own bodies count?

How about the fact that most oozes melt themselves to death because they're not immune to the acid they're coated in?

The fact that you can use a torch's light to see anything in the torch's area, but can't see the torch from outside of that area?

Drown-healing?

The fact that multiclass penalties encourage rampant multiclassing rather than discouraging it?

Werebears turn into Lawful Good bruins that, during the full moon, help sell Cub Scout cookies and help Little Olde Ladies across the street?

Zombies and skeletons are Evil-aligned, despite being mindless automatons who are basically organic machines driven by entirely Neutral-aligned energy?

Undead are healed on the Positive Energy Plane and have no chance of exploding like living creatures native to the plane do?

[Deophaun]

The fact that you can use a torch's light to see anything in the torch's area, but can't see the torch from outside of that area?
That's a house rule, and a very strange one at that.

You can see light sources with a DC 20 Spot check from 10x its light radius in dim light, and 20x its radius in darkness. You automatically see light sources at half that distance. You can see into illuminated areas normally.

[Vrock_Summoner]

You do understand that a creature with DR is able to bypass the kind of DR it has with it's natural weapons by default, right?

So those two young adult dragons with DR 5/Magic, are both capable of completely bypassing each other's DR.

.... News to me, actually...

[Diarmuid]

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.


Similar rule for alignment based DR, not exactly the same.



Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

[Xelbiuj]

Werebears turn into Lawful Good bruins that, during the full moon, help sell Cub Scout cookies and help Little Olde Ladies across the street?


I like to think they go around stomping out forest fires.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I like to think they go around stomping out forest fires.

Nah, that's not his job. Only you can prevent forest fire.

[bekeleven]

That's a house rule, and a very strange one at that.

You can see light sources with a DC 20 Spot check from 10x its light radius in dim light, and 20x its radius in darkness. You automatically see light sources at half that distance. You can see into illuminated areas normally.

He's talking about the PHB illumination rules that mistakenly set your spot check modifier based on the illumination where the player is standing, as opposed to the location of the thing said player is attempting to see. Hence, standing by the fire lets you see the bandits sneaking up on you, while said bandits are blind until they near he fire themselves.

[Gemini476]

The Paragnostic Assembly has a near-monopoly on Truenamers. +10 Truespeak is too good to pass up.

Despite Dragons being feared for their spellcasting prowess, they really aren't that great at magic. I'm pretty sure that the best ones are 3/4 spellcasting or something, which isn't really all that impressive.

Also, the existence of 20th level commoners (as per the demographics tables) is completely baffling. How on earth do they get so much XP?
Epic worlds have 36th level Commoners, which is even more baffling!

[Thanatosia]

Despite Dragons being feared for their spellcasting prowess, they really aren't that great at magic. I'm pretty sure that the best ones are 3/4 spellcasting or something, which isn't really all that impressive.
Their caster level is just something they get from aging..... ie, they aren't actually practicing magic like a Sorceror does. Being able to cast as a lv14 sorceror with 0xp earned as a Sorceror is pretty impressive to me....

[Deophaun]

He's talking about the PHB illumination rules that mistakenly set your spot check modifier based on the illumination where the player is standing, as opposed to the location of the thing said player is attempting to see. Hence, standing by the fire lets you see the bandits sneaking up on you, while said bandits are blind until they near he fire themselves.
Not really. The PHB wording is bad, but it also refers to being able to see "lit areas." Thus, you have two possible RAW interpretations from the PHB; one which is silly and one which works. Which one is adopted says more about the group than the system.

Of course, once you include other sources, the possibility for a silly RAW interpretation goes away.

[TheMonocleRogue]

Vampires. They get a huge list of buffs but the negatives make them so very hard to play for PCs.

The pros:


DR 10/ magic and silver
Dominate Person at will, 30ft range gaze attack
Polymorph at will. Can turn into a bat, a wolf, and their dire counterparts
Can create spawn by draining blood w/ pin
Fast healing 5
Gaseous Form at will, unlimited duration
Spider climb at will, unlimited duration
Two negative levels on each natural attack
5 bonus feats (Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Alertness, Dodge, Lightning Reflexes)
A large stat increase (+6 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha)


In order to keep one from attacking you, all you need is one of these:


Any holy symbol
Garlic
A mirror
Natural sunlight
Turn undead (vamps get +4 turn resist)
Any spell that controls or destroys undead


Vampires also can only enter public places freely. If they try to enter a private residence, they need permission from the owner in order to do so.

Also vamps can't swim, so good luck running one in an aquatic campaign.

[Brookshw]

Just to go back to dragons for a moment,

Half dragons......

Yeah, not buying the antisocial thing.....

[Urpriest]

Also vamps can't swim, so good luck running one in an aquatic campaign.

I thought it was just running water that was a problem. Depending on which part of the Ocean you're in, meaningful currents might be about as rare as rivers land-side.

[Qwertystop]

The Paragnostic Assembly has a near-monopoly on Truenamers. +10 Truespeak is too good to pass up.

Despite Dragons being feared for their spellcasting prowess, they really aren't that great at magic. I'm pretty sure that the best ones are 3/4 spellcasting or something, which isn't really all that impressive.


Not entirely sure that's a problem - everything about the Paragnostic Assembly pretty much yells "Truenamer". Except not, because you don't yell in libraries and if you're dumb enough to start yelling randomly in truespeech you deserve what's coming to you.

In the Draconic casting case, sure, they're not as good at it as practiced full-casters, but that's just from age, without putting any effort into actually learning magic. If they start practicing (taking Sorcerer levels), it stacks. Also, that's on top of all the other things dragons get.

[Karnith]

Dragons, celestials, and fiends are able to breed with virtually any living creature. Thanks to Eberron, there are living constructs (namely, Warforged). Hence, there can be Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial, and Half-Fiendish Warforged.

Just... please don't ask how it happens.

[Chronos]

Similarly to the OP's example, there's the whole Blood War. Demons and devils have been fighting each other since the dawn of time. And it's no wonder that the war has been raging so long, since neither side can do anything to each other. Both usually have DR that's overcome by Good weapons, but their own weapons count as Evil, so they can't overcome each others' DR. When they have alignment-affecting SLAs, they're usually anti-good ones like Blasphemy or Unholy Blight, not Law or Chaos-affecting ones like Dictum or Chaos Hammer (though a few of the high-end ones have both). And this is even assuming they can ever get to each other: No devil or demon has any ability that would let them travel to other planes, so the forces of Hell can never attack the Abyss, nor vice-versa. They could only ever meet if some third party is stupid enough to summon both.

One that surprisingly actually works out well, though, relates to Truenamers. The mechanically-best race for a Truenamer is an Illumian, due to their ability to get +2 to all Int-based skills (such as True Speech). Illumians, as it happens, are the race of people composed of living words. Huh, yeah, I guess they would be the best truenamers, then.


Quoth Karnith:

Dragons, celestials, and fiends are able to breed with virtually any living creature. Thanks to Eberron, there are living constructs (namely, Warforged). Hence, there can be Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial, and Half-Fiendish Warforged.

Just... please don't ask how it happens.
It happens the same way as for any other creature: The two mate, and then one of them gets pregnant. I'm sure a warforged would be quite surprised at getting pregnant, but it can happen anyway, because magic. Dragons don't tell the laws of reality to sit down and shut up; rather, the laws meekly ask the dragon permission before standing up in the first place.

[Sith_Happens]

Not entirely sure that's a problem - everything about the Paragnostic Assembly pretty much yells "Truenamer". Except not, because you don't yell in libraries and if you're dumb enough to start yelling randomly in truespeech you deserve what's coming to you.


I'm sure a warforged would be quite surprised at getting pregnant, but it can happen anyway, because magic. Dragons don't tell the laws of reality to sit down and shut up; rather, the laws meekly ask the dragon permission before standing up in the first place.

[Urge to add spoiler box to my sig so I can sig more things intensifies]

[Adverb]

For me, it's always been the D&D economy. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html


Werebears turn into Lawful Good bruins that, during the full moon, help sell Cub Scout cookies and help Little Olde Ladies across the street?

This is hilarious.


Vampires. They get a huge list of buffs but the negatives make them so very hard to play for PCs.

A friend of mine played a Crusader who got vamp'd once. It was terrible, because she lost her con mod and her ability to remain standing at -1 hp. Being a vampire made her much wussier.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

A friend of mine played a Crusader who got vamp'd once. It was terrible, because she lost her con mod and her ability to remain standing at -1 hp. Being a vampire made her much wussier.

While the HP loss and no longer able to remain standing a -1 is bad, the DR 10 is insane, and the stat boosts to STR make you a god at combat.

Until a spear hits you and kills you because it's your job to tank everything.:smalltongue:

[kardar233]

Similarly to the OP's example, there's the whole Blood War. Demons and devils have been fighting each other since the dawn of time. And it's no wonder that the war has been raging so long, since neither side can do anything to each other. Both usually have DR that's overcome by Good weapons, but their own weapons count as Evil, so they can't overcome each others' DR. When they have alignment-affecting SLAs, they're usually anti-good ones like Blasphemy or Unholy Blight, not Law or Chaos-affecting ones like Dictum or Chaos Hammer (though a few of the high-end ones have both). And this is even assuming they can ever get to each other: No devil or demon has any ability that would let them travel to other planes, so the forces of Hell can never attack the Abyss, nor vice-versa. They could only ever meet if some third party is stupid enough to summon both.

Furthermore, some devils (Pit Fiend, Horned Devil, all Abishai (FCII), Pleasure Devils (same source)) have Regeneration that can only be overcome by Good or Good+Silver, which means that without some serious shenanigans (Graymantle won't work because Devils are immune to Poison) demons can't actually kill a fair number of the devils they encounter.

[pwykersotz]

And this is even assuming they can ever get to each other: No devil or demon has any ability that would let them travel to other planes, so the forces of Hell can never attack the Abyss, nor vice-versa. They could only ever meet if some third party is stupid enough to summon both.

Natural portals are a thing, and there are a ton of ways for even a commoner to navigate the planes. Plane Shift just trivializes it. I'm also pretty certain (though I don't know exactly how) that after eons of combat, they've gotten pretty good at killing each other, much like the power difference in a character versus its optimized form.

[Rubik]

Don't the natural weapons of creatures with DR automatically overcome that DR? Since both demons and devils have DR/Good, they'd overcome each other's DR with their natural weapons.

Does the same apply to manufactured weapons?

[pwykersotz]

Don't the natural weapons of creatures with DR automatically overcome that DR? Since both demons and devils have DR/Good, they'd overcome each other's DR with their natural weapons.

Does the same apply to manufactured weapons?

That's what I always thought, but the SRD seems to say it's just for creatures vulnerable to magic weapons and I can't find a more specific ruling.

[kardar233]

Don't the natural weapons of creatures with DR automatically overcome that DR? Since both demons and devils have DR/Good, they'd overcome each other's DR with their natural weapons.

Does the same apply to manufactured weapons?


A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

This statement is somewhat ambiguous, and I'm not sure whether to interpret it as: demons (having DR/Good) can overcome DR/Good, or that demons being [Chaotic] and [Evil] can overcome DR/Chaotic and DR/Evil.

And since this only counts for DR, they still have no way of dealing with the Devils' Regeneration.

[Cikomyr]

I know it's straight out of the classic fantasy lore, but damn is it stupid for Dwarves to favor axes and hammers when they usually fight in tight tunnels, where piercing weapons would make more sense.

[Rubik]

I know it's straight out of the classic fantasy lore, but damn is it stupid for Dwarves to favor axes and hammers when they usually fight in tight tunnels, where piercing weapons would make more sense.Well, technically piercing weapons (like picks) can't be used to break through stone and such, given the rules on sundering, so it looks like slashing and bludgeoning weapons are all they'd use anyway.

[Alent]

I know it's straight out of the classic fantasy lore, but damn is it stupid for Dwarves to favor axes and hammers when they usually fight in tight tunnels, where piercing weapons would make more sense.

I've always thought that was a fluke of being metalworkers, who need to fell trees from the side of the mountain for use in crafting and hammers for blacksmithing, and just liking the feel of both as tools.

Although certainly you'd think mining picks would be in there as favored weapons, at the least.

[Cikomyr]

Well, technically piercing weapons (like picks) can't be used to break through stone and such, given the rules on sundering, so it looks like slashing and bludgeoning weapons are all they'd use anyway.

I am more ready to believe Norren's explanation than yours. Actualy, picks ARE used to break through stones.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv31/wowoverachiever/FFXIV/Equipment_1-22_300.jpg

I have a hard time seeing how an axe would help mining.

And still, if we are talking about WARRING dwarves, hammer, picks and axes are all very impractical weapons to use in tunnels. Especially if you use choke points. They should use long and shortspears in phalanx formation.

[Alent]

I am more ready to believe Norren's explanation than yours. Actualy, picks ARE used to break through stones.

As absurd as it sounds, it is actually RAW. Check the sunder rules. You can't sunder a paper wall with a ballista bolt by RAW. Ridiculous, but true!


I have a hard time seeing how an axe would help mining.

Aw, but you just linked to a sideways axe!

[shylocke]

If you look closely at dragons, they suck at flying until they cast fly. SSSHHHHHH! don't tell anyone. Its a closely guarded racial secret.

[ChaoticDitz]

If you look closely at dragons, they suck at flying until they cast fly. SSSHHHHHH! don't tell anyone. Its a closely guarded racial secret.

They have pretty great fly speed, actually. Sure, they're not very skilled at the flying maneuvers, but what do you expect from such a large creature whose anatomy goes almost completely against the notion of flying?

[Erik Vale]

If you look closely at dragons, they suck at flying until they cast fly. SSSHHHHHH! don't tell anyone. Its a closely guarded racial secret.

Wyrmlings and Blues would like to have words with you.

Blue dragons suck at surviving in deserts at young ages, but aren't [if I remember right] raised past hatching, further reducing their survival chances... Hey, that might actually be deliberate.

Warlocks are supposed to make deals with infernal or fey beings [in general], however they get both a infernal based healing and fey based DR...

[ddude987]

As absurd as it sounds, it is actually RAW. Check the sunder rules. You can't sunder a paper wall with a ballista bolt by RAW. Ridiculous, but true!

But instead of making a sunder attack, shooting a ballista bolt at a wall just does damage to the wall like normal - the walls hardness, so you can still break walls with piercing weapons.


Smashing a weapon or shield with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon is accomplished by the sunder special attack. Smashing an object is a lot like sundering a weapon or shield, except that your attack roll is opposed by the object’s AC. Generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon.
Sundering calls out weapon or shield. Ironically enough this means that a person's armor is impervious to sunder attacks.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Here's one for you:

The Celestial and Fiendish templates are actually weaker than the Half-Celestial/Fiend templates.

Celestial/Fiendish creatures can, most likely, mate with mortals to create Half-Celestial/Fiend children.

So, it's possible for a being literally created of raw Good/Evil, to have a child that is stronger than the parent. Through sheer genetics alone.

[ChaoticDitz]

Here's one for you:

The Celestial and Fiendish templates are actually weaker than the Half-Celestial/Fiend templates.

Celestial/Fiendish creatures can, most likely, mate with mortals to create Half-Celestial/Fiend children.

So, it's possible for a being literally created of raw Good/Evil, to have a child that is stronger than the parent. Through sheer genetics alone.

Feels very DBZ. I approve.

[Erik Vale]

Here's one for you:

The Celestial and Fiendish templates are actually weaker than the Half-Celestial/Fiend templates.

Celestial/Fiendish creatures can, most likely, mate with mortals to create Half-Celestial/Fiend children.

So, it's possible for a being literally created of raw Good/Evil, to have a child that is stronger than the parent. Through sheer genetics alone.

This is known as Hybrid Vigor...
OMG, there's biology in my DnD

[ddude987]

Feels very DBZ. I approve.

The true question is are you going to have to wait several sessions before one of your abilities goes off?

[Cikomyr]

Feels very DBZ. I approve.

Nuts. I was going to say that

[ChaoticDitz]

The true question is are you going to have to wait several sessions before one of your abilities goes off?

Well duh, the longer I spend charging the more attacks I get per round, gosh have you even seen that show?

[Qwertystop]

Here's one for you:

The Celestial and Fiendish templates are actually weaker than the Half-Celestial/Fiend templates.

Celestial/Fiendish creatures can, most likely, mate with mortals to create Half-Celestial/Fiend children.

So, it's possible for a being literally created of raw Good/Evil, to have a child that is stronger than the parent. Through sheer genetics alone.

Justification: Making, say, a dog out of Pure Good is going to lead to a very Good dog - but making a dog partly out of Pure Good and partly out of actual dog muscle puts a bit of strength behind that.

Alternately, Pure Good is inherently undilutable, because if you could do that it would mean that Pure Good is capable of creating something that is less Good than itself. By this reading, a Celestial dog would be made of Pure Good plus filler, while a Half-Celestial dog would be made of equally powerful Pure Good plus things that actually make sense as being part of a dog - you keep all the Pure Goodness while gaining all the bits of dogness that aren't burned out by the Pure Good.

Replace "Good" with "Evil" and "dog" with whatever other creature as necessary.

[Prime32]

Celestial creatures aren't made of pure Good, they just live on the Upper Planes. They're not even Outsiders.

A half-celestial requires an angel or something as a parent, not just something with the celestial template.

[Rubik]

I think it's funny that planetars engage in parental production practices so as to produce half-celestial llamas and whatnot.

[Cikomyr]

I thought that Angels were... how I can say..?

Hasbrosexual?

[Jeff the Green]

Celestial creatures aren't made of pure Good, they just live on the Upper Planes. They're not even Outsiders.

A half-celestial requires an angel or something as a parent, not just something with the celestial template.

So basically, if an angel has a dog for a pet, he has a celestial dog. If he has a dog for a wife, they have a half-celestial puppy.

[Rubik]

I thought that Angels were... how I can say..?

Hasbrosexual?I guess that puts a new spin on the term "brony."


So basically, if an angel has a dog for a pet, he has a celestial dog. If he has a dog for a wife, they have a half-celestial puppy.She's a real bitch.

[holywhippet]

Say you have two brothers who decide to go adventuring. One brother has spent a lot of time running and jumping so he has a nice bonus to DEX. The other spent most of his time standing around so he has a DEX penalty.

Both brothers are wearing the exact same equipment but they have a different AC because of the DEX differences. During their adventure the brothers find themselves blinded somehow. The first brother loses his DEX bonus to AC and has to rely on just his armor to protect him.

But the second brother has what happen? If he doesn't lose his DEX penalty to AC it makes no sense. He is easier to hit than his brother even though neither are able to react to incoming blows. They have identical armor and are in the same situation so one should not be easier to hit than the other.

On the other hand, if he loses his DEX penalty it means that he is actually harder to hit while blind and that normally he actually steps into attacks rather than away from them. This makes no sense either as he'd surely learn to just not react to attacks.

[Jeff the Green]

She's a real bitch.

Alternatively, a real dame. :smallamused:

[Sgt. Cookie]

A half-celestial requires an angel or something as a parent, not just something with the celestial template.

...which itself is an amusing fluff-mechanics interaction.

[Cikomyr]

I guess that puts a new spin on the term "brony."


Actually, I was more thinking of G.I. Joe and Barbie dolls..

You know, Hasbrosexual:

http://gospeedracer.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/naked-barbie-and-ken-dolls.jpg

Aren't angels all shaped like that?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Sundering calls out weapon or shield. Ironically enough this means that a person's armor is impervious to sunder attacks.

I think that the idea behind that is that, if you're trying to break through someone's armor, you are in actuality doing the same thing as just trying to hit the person normally, and it's a regular attack.

It would make sense to allow attacking, say, armor straps of Medium or Heavy Armor to disable it, but that would require a pretty specialized technique that's more like an Ambush feat than regular old Sunder. Actually, I think it might be an Ambush feat.

[Rubik]

Aren't angels all shaped like that?Only if they live in California.

[ddude987]

This entire hasbrosexual thing has me baffled... first I just thought bronies but then with the pictures of the dolls... well now I'm not sure what I'm thinking of

[Cikomyr]

This entire hasbrosexual thing has me baffled... first I just thought bronies but then with the pictures of the dolls... well now I'm not sure what I'm thinking of

Please note that I didn't said Hasbrophiliac, mkay?

[Alent]

This entire hasbrosexual thing has me baffled... first I just thought bronies but then with the pictures of the dolls... well now I'm not sure what I'm thinking of

I know what I was thinking of.

http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/thumb/2/2e/Springerarceecmonwoman.jpg/200px-Springerarceecmonwoman.jpg

[Rubik]

Please note that I didn't said Hasbrophiliac, mkay?That should mean that they bleed rainbows or something.

[Cikomyr]

That should mean that they bleed rainbows or something.

Dude, blood-related is hemo, not "phili"

Hemophilie is.. just.. weird. Which probably intersects with Emophilie

[ddude987]

Please note that I didn't said Hasbrophiliac, mkay?

I am completely aware of what you said, have no worries.


That should mean that they bleed rainbows or something.

Now I want to be able to do this...

[Cikomyr]

A classic fluff-mechanic interaction:

a sky-high bluff skill won't help you convince someone that something true is... well, true.

[Rubik]

Dude, blood-related is hemo, not "phili"I'm aware. I said should, if you'll note.

[Bakeru]

Say you have two brothers who decide to go adventuring. One brother has spent a lot of time running and jumping so he has a nice bonus to DEX. The other spent most of his time standing around so he has a DEX penalty.

Both brothers are wearing the exact same equipment but they have a different AC because of the DEX differences. During their adventure the brothers find themselves blinded somehow. The first brother loses his DEX bonus to AC and has to rely on just his armor to protect him.

But the second brother has what happen? If he doesn't lose his DEX penalty to AC it makes no sense. He is easier to hit than his brother even though neither are able to react to incoming blows. They have identical armor and are in the same situation so one should not be easier to hit than the other.

On the other hand, if he loses his DEX penalty it means that he is actually harder to hit while blind and that normally he actually steps into attacks rather than away from them. This makes no sense either as he'd surely learn to just not react to attacks.If someone looses their Dex bonus, Dex penalties still apply, so it's the first case. It's called out often enough.

They probably stand impractical, in a way that doesn't guard vitals and/or leaves the openings and weak points in the armour open to attack instead of covering them.

[Erik Vale]

A classic fluff-mechanic interaction:

a sky-high bluff skill won't help you convince someone that something true is... well, true.

Well, first you deliberately fail your bluff check.
Then you tell the truth, when the sense motive check isn't needed, it proves truth.

[Cikomyr]

Well, first you deliberately fail your bluff check.
Then you tell the truth, when the sense motive check isn't needed, it proves truth.

I... just...
.....

This is.. wrong.

[ddude987]

Multiple times I've had a DM make an npc roll a sense motive check, fail it, and not believe the party and either not help us, or try and kill us. I'm not sure if RAW if you roll sense motive and don't succeed you believe the opposite or what... but even if that is RAW, its annoying.

[Erik Vale]

I... just...
.....

This is.. wrong.

Yes, but it's a work around for the rules.

The rules allow for all sorts of weird things, in some cases they are needed.

Here's another one:
For Spider Climb live spiders are stored in component pouches, for another spell, gallons of blood are also contained.
A spell component pouch is also a survivalist pouch [for vampires and living alike], if your willing to save vs poison and disease [bat guano and spider bites]. It's also used for wizard hazing rituals... The real reason for the lack of wizards at any level is because many die due to low fortitude saves.

[Bakeru]

I'm not sure if RAW if you roll sense motive and don't succeed you believe the opposite or what... but even if that is RAW, its annoying.It's not RAW. In fact, there's no rule at all concerning how to convince someone of the truth. You can convince someone to trust you (but only in the "he's my friend, I want to help him"-sense, not in the "I trust him to speak the truth"-sense), and you can convince someone that your lies are true, but if someone believes in a falsehood, the only way to change that is to convince him of another falsehood.

[weckar]

Could Autohypnosis be used to convince yourself the truth is a lie, so bluff would work?

[Bakeru]

Could Autohypnosis be used to convince yourself the truth is a lie, so bluff would work?Not as written, no. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm)

[weckar]

Boo. Memory modification spells are expensive and generally [evil]...

[MonochromeTiger]

that's why you just summon monsters with memory stealing touch attacks or use poison that makes the character hit extremely susceptible to directions or information for a short period of time ("believe that anything this person says that sounds honest is a lie" "oh that I forgot to stop following it, really").

[Bakeru]

Mindrape, while in the BoVD, isn't actually [evil], Iirc. I know Programmed Amnesia isn't. Both are 9th grade spells, though. Neither really discusses what happens when you use it on yourself... But you could have fun with PA's trigger clause (you can have it activate/deactivate based on pretty much whatever conditions you want).
I vaguely remember a bard spell that could rewrite recent memory and I'm pretty sure it wasn't evil either, but I'm not sure were I saw it...

[Rubik]

Mindrape, while in the BoVD, isn't actually [evil], Iirc. I know Programmed Amnesia isn't. Both are 9th grade spells, though. Neither really discusses what happens when you use it on yourself... But you could have fun with PA's trigger clause (you can have it activate/deactivate based on pretty much whatever conditions you want).
I vaguely remember a bard spell that could rewrite recent memory and I'm pretty sure it wasn't evil either, but I'm not sure were I saw it...Mindrape has the [Evil] tag, but it really isn't inherently bad. It can be used for lots and lots of positive things, from healing the mind to facilitating learning.

[Necroticplague]

Not as written, no. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm)

How about bluffing yourself until you fail your own sense motive roll? "Fortunately for me, I am a much better liar than I am a judge of character."

[weckar]

Honestly, the only BoVD spell I ever used (as a player) was Love's Pain.

Interestingly, the only time this spell is actually referenced (outside the spell description), it is used as a torture device. The spell's range is (at least) 150ft., and requires a ranged touch attack. Why this is a bad combination of purpose and application should be.... painfully obvious.

[lordzya]

The idea is that a one-handed axe or hammer is shorter than a longsword. Axes being good in tunnels is not meant to apply to two-handers.

[Ionbound]

Half-Fiend Aasimar, or Half-Celestial Tiefling. It gets sillier if they take levels in that racial class that lets Aasimar or Tieflings become full Half-Celestial/Fiends.

[MonochromeTiger]

Honestly, the only BoVD spell I ever used (as a player) was Love's Pain.

Interestingly, the only time this spell is actually referenced (outside the spell description), it is used as a torture device. The spell's range is (at least) 150ft., and requires a ranged touch attack. Why this is a bad combination of purpose and application should be.... painfully obvious.

what makes it really funny is that love's pain is a spell that has some pretty limited use in a serious evil campaign. you use it on someone in a fight or even after capturing them? they have no idea what you did unless you explain it to them, and even then they don't have to believe you. as a means of torture it isn't that great since all you'll achieve is enraging the prisoner or send them into a depression (both make getting answers to questions difficult). and really if you're going to go for the torture their family in front of them just to watch their reaction approach to evil the least you can do is show some professional pride and actually capture said family.

[weckar]

I actually managed to put it to good use, but it helped that the main victim was aware of the spell (he taught it to me, after all). Really, it's more the threat of this spell being used than it's actual use that gets you the information you want: Very few non-protected secondary common NPCs will survive 3d6 damage, or more.

[Necroticplague]

I thought the main use of love's pain was to kill the hero by going through his much more vulnerable family.Or use mindrape to force someone into loving a target, who you can then kill through the commoner. Mindrape into new love, repeat.

[weckar]

... Now I feel like starting a thread for 101 uses of Love's Pain....

[MonochromeTiger]

I thought the main use of love's pain was to kill the hero by going through his much more vulnerable family.Or use mindrape to force someone into loving a target, who you can then kill through the commoner. Mindrape into new love, repeat.

well that can be useful but it loses the personal touch of tearing the hero's life to shreds, burning the remains, and throwing the ashes in his face before the kill. honestly evil these days, no one takes pride in their work and they all seem to think that a monologue means you can't kill the only potential threat in the room until you finish when clearly you kill at the beginning or middle of the speech when their defenses are lowered to take advantage of your supposed cliched mistake.

[Cikomyr]

well that can be useful but it loses the personal touch of tearing the hero's life to shreds, burning the remains, and throwing the ashes in his face before the kill. honestly evil these days, no one takes pride in their work and they all seem to think that a monologue means you can't kill the only potential threat in the room until you finish when clearly you kill at the beginning or middle of the speech when their defenses are lowered to take advantage of your supposed cliched mistake.

A villain that doesn't got personal against the Hero is just a megalomaniac among others

[Fax Celestis]

You do understand that a creature with DR is able to bypass the kind of DR it has with it's natural weapons by default, right?

So those two young adult dragons with DR 5/Magic, are both capable of completely bypassing each other's DR.

Note: this is only the case for DR/Magic and DR/Epic, not other DRs.

Bypassing alignment based DR is a function of the relevant alignment subtype: a creature with the (Evil) subtype bypasses DR/Evil, for example.

[shylocke]

They have pretty great fly speed, actually. Sure, they're not very skilled at the flying maneuvers, but what do you expect from such a large creature whose anatomy goes almost completely against the notion of flying?

I'm talking about their clumsy maneuverability and the fact that dragons are vain and prideful. They would rather everyone thought they are naturally graceful in the sky and would try to pass off their ability to cast fly as natural flight skill

[Yomega]

Soo many good ones Ill go with

Kord: Chaotic Good god of Strength, Athletics and Courage, when he confronted Asmodeus regarding intentional corrupting souls after signing the Pact Primeval, backed down when Asmodeus said "Read the fine print".

[Erik Vale]

Soo many good ones Ill go with

Kord: Chaotic Good god of Strength, Athletics and Courage, when he confronted Asmodeus regarding intentional corrupting souls after signing the Pact Primeval, backed down when Asmodeus said "Read the fine print".

Cause he knows he'd be dogpiled by the universe.
His domain is courage, not stupidity... That and he has a contract with Asmodeus on the side, he wanted to double check his fine print. :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[SiuiS]

This thread is *not* about contradictions. Don't post something like "fighters are supposed to be greatest warriors but they suck"; for one thing, done to death so not even amusing any more, but more importantly, it isn't really concrete fluff and it doesn't really even interact with the mechanics.

This is for things that just come out funny when fluff and mechanics interact in ways that may have even been intended but are just wrong in practice.

I'm finding this exceedingly difficult to put in to words, so I'll give an example to illustrate the kinds of interactions I'm looking for.

So, the fluff. Dragons are extremely territorial. They tend to kill adventurers just for approaching, and more importantly to the interaction, they get into life-or-death battles with other dragons (even those of the same alignment) as a response to said other dragons so much as flying in their airspace. This is a fairly well-established fact...

... Except that dragons are utterly inept at fighting one another. Two great beasts embodying the very manifestation of power and creativity... But the fight between them might never get anywhere.

I mean, a less offensive issue at least is that they're extremely unlikely to be effected by each other's magic; the idea that great, powerful dragons can handle draconic spellcasting better than most mortals is okay to me. Then you get to everything else, though.

Dragons of equal age category (especially Young Adults, but the condition continues) get pretty hilariously nerfed by each others' DR to the point where battles consisting of full attacks will be dealing an average of, oh, 6 points per round (again using the Young Adult example) meaning that fight would be tedious, uneventful, and last at least 2 and a half minutes of the equivalent of tiny scratches on each other; that level of damage would be terribly visually unimpressive. And dragons wouldn't normally fight like this, they'd be doing fly-bys.

This isn't even mitigated by breath weapon, because if they live near enough to fight each other they probably have the same type of breath weapon and are thus immune to each other.

So yeah, I find that exceptionally hilarious how dull, drawn-out, and unimpressive a supposedly common battle between creatures treated by fantasy as practical demigods would really be. Their own strengths are basically completely nullified by each other until some sort of spell to make natural attacks magical is used. And these guys don't tend to have the Druid-y options for doing that.

What kind of funny interaction fails have you guys spotted between fluff and the mechanics like this?

1. Isn't there an established rule that monsters natural attacks overcome their own style of damage reduction? I'm fairly certain dragons at least get magical strike.

2. Two great beasts thrashin at each other for hours dramatically and leveling forests, mountains, towns nearby isn't actually a tickles and kitten whispers fight. If you have dragons not maneuvering, thrashing, tripping each other out of the air and suplexing into mountainsides, slamming the desert sand and blasting it into glass knives to throw the other into, or launching ballista bolts that were once trees out of a cloud of smoke from their incindiary blasts while unleashing hellish, smoking pits of devestation, that's not "oh it's only six damage after DR", that's white room simulation silliness.

[nedz]

From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction), only Epic or Aligned DR need apply though.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

[Yomega]

I was implying more law>chaos in the whole D&D universe even Sigil is mildly lawful aligned

[Sith_Happens]

Soo many good ones Ill go with

Kord: Chaotic Good god of Strength, Athletics and Courage, when he confronted Asmodeus regarding intentional corrupting souls after signing the Pact Primeval, backed down when Asmodeus said "Read the fine print".

That wasn't Kord, it was Heironeous, at least when they put that story in Fiendish Codex II.

[Bakeru]

...I vaguely remember that one of the layers of the Abyss is colonised by Chaotic-Good beings... who stay there because they signed a contract... which the demons, Chaotic Evil as they are, broke.

I'm gonna look that up, be right back.

Ah, yes, found it in Fiendish Codex I, page 148. Androlynne, 471st layer of the Abyss, ruled by Pale Night, has a small colony of Eladrin children (as well as many other good creatures, protecting them) lured and bound there by an old pact, which was only agreed upon because Pale Night influenced her negotiation partner with deception and magic.
Obviously, none of of the Eladrin thinks "whatever, we're going home." I seriously hope there is some kind of magic enforcing the pact, because "dem's de rules" isn't a good reason for Eladrin to do anything.

[Qwertystop]

...I vaguely remember that one of the layers of the Abyss is colonised by Chaotic-Good beings... who stay there because they signed a contract... which the demons, Chaotic Evil as they are, broke.

I'm gonna look that up, be right back.

Ah, yes, found it in Fiendish Codex I, page 148. Androlynne, 471st layer of the Abyss, ruled by Pale Night, has a small colony of Eladrin children (as well as many other good creatures, protecting them) lured and bound there by an old pact, which was only agreed upon because Pale Night influenced her negotiation partner with deception and magic.
Obviously, none of of the Eladrin thinks "whatever, we're going home." I seriously hope there is some kind of magic enforcing the pact, because "dem's de rules" isn't a good reason for Eladrin to do anything.

Best guess - being waaaaay down on layer 471 makes it tricky to get out? Not sure how the layers work WRT Plane Shift.

[Bakeru]

Best guess - being waaaaay down on layer 471 makes it tricky to get out? Not sure how the layers work WRT Plane Shift.It explicitly mentions entire groups of celestials fighting their way down there (one of the allegedly hardest to reach layers in the Abyss) to protect the children. In fact, originally, only the eladrin children were there, trapped and alone - the other celestials arrived to help before the demons could attack them. Which means it must have been damn fast. But no-one thinks about going back home.

[Qwertystop]

It explicitly mentions entire groups of celestials fighting their way down there (one of the allegedly hardest to reach layers in the Abyss) to protect the children. In fact, originally, only the eladrin children were there, trapped and alone - the other celestials arrived to help before the demons could attack them. Which means it must have been damn fast. But no-one thinks about going back home.

Ah. So on the one hand, magic apparently can't skip the distance (fighting their way down there as opposed to teleporting in). On the other hand, it's still pretty fast. Maybe the celestials don't think they could fight their way out and protect the children at the same time?

[Bakeru]

It's not like they're just sitting there. They are already fighting, not constantly (sometimes, apparently, the demons retreat a bit to lick their wounds), but again and again, with some celestial actually joining, leaving and returning...

But looking closer, apparently, the children are also kept as children by the pact that binds them to the plane - as such, it probably needs to have a magic component.

Still, these creatures of chaos have, since "the days immediately following the Age before Ages", aka. since very, very closely to the beginning of celestial history, before the Tanar'ri became free (it mentions their "inevitable upraising" against the previous rulers of the Abyss as something that hadn't happened yet), been stuck down there, with members high in the celestial hierarchy (some guy called Faerinaal from BoED page 153 - CR 29), "...spending much of [their] time personally overseeing the defence of the innocent eladrin trapped on Androlynne.", and none found a way to break free? And these guys (chaotic good celestials) are supposed to be paragons of freedom?


Still, I guess this is merely a case of Fluff not making sense.
Chaotic Evil Outsiders (not the best when it comes to "fine print" in contracts, they usually just don't bother and use force instead), somehow binding Chaotic Good Outsiders (who, as Chaotic Outsiders, should be quite good at breaking contracts and pacts), and keeping them since time immemorial due to a pact.
Since it doesn't actually have a RAW aspect (heck, the Pact isn't even explained), it doesn't really contradict RAW.

[Firechanter]

I once posted this in one of the "Dysfunctional Rules" threads, but actually it may fit the theme of this topic better:

Foul Bachelor Warblade Frog

The Maneuver items in ToB - Iron Heart Vest, Setting Sun Slippers etc - can _never be taken off_, since you need to wear them continuously for 24 hours before they grant their effect, and lose it as soon as you take them off. Looks like you're stuck in those things for the rest of your career. No getting comfortable at night, no visits to the bath-house, no dilly-dallying with the ladies (well, possible, but rather rude). Also, your enemies won't need the Scent ability to track you.

[Invader]

I never had a problem with werebears being lawful good, certainly not as much as placing alignment restrictions on races or classes to begin with.

[Chronos]

Werebears are good because Beorn was good. It only really gets weird when a previously-evil person gets infected.

[Rubik]

I once posted this in one of the "Dysfunctional Rules" threads, but actually it may fit the theme of this topic better:

Foul Bachelor Warblade Frog

The Maneuver items in ToB - Iron Heart Vest, Setting Sun Slippers etc - can _never be taken off_, since you need to wear them continuously for 24 hours before they grant their effect, and lose it as soon as you take them off. Looks like you're stuck in those things for the rest of your career. No getting comfortable at night, no visits to the bath-house, no dilly-dallying with the ladies (well, possible, but rather rude). Also, your enemies won't need the Scent ability to track you.I just make sure I have ghost touch on my unarmed strike, combined with sequester cast on everything and a Ghostform spell to have incorporeal and invisible equipment.

[Forrestfire]

Celestial creatures aren't made of pure Good, they just live on the Upper Planes. They're not even Outsiders.

A half-celestial requires an angel or something as a parent, not just something with the celestial template.

Well actually...


Celestial creatures often come in metallic colors (usually silver,
gold, or platinum). They can be mistaken for half-celestials, more
powerful creatures that are created when a celestial mates with a
noncelestial creature.

Strangely, the Fiendish Creature page says that you need actual "fiends" to make half-fiends, instead of just extraplanar things from the lower planes. Oh, and you can't get a half-fiend out of a celestial parent, specifically.


Foul Bachelor Warblade Frog

:smalleek: Good thing prestidigitation is a thing...

[Firechanter]

I just make sure I have ghost touch on my unarmed strike, combined with sequester cast on everything and a Ghostform spell to have incorporeal and invisible equipment.

Really. =D Well we just houseruled it so you can take off the items, and stay attuned to them until you attune to a different item on the same slot.

[Eldest]

I was implying more law>chaos in the whole D&D universe even Sigil is mildly lawful aligned

...no, no it isn't.