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Lord Sidereal
2007-01-28, 11:54 AM
So I'm building a Warlock who, as a contingency plan, has a few scrolls of shapechange so he can become a mad melee monster with eldritch blast etc. As a CL 17 scroll, what chocices are best for what to change into?

Saph
2007-01-28, 12:01 PM
None. Get something else. As soon as your DM figures out how ridiculous Shapechange is, he'll either ban the spell, kill your character, or both. Just summon creatures or teleport away or turn invisible or something, like a normal arcanist.

- Saph

Lord Sidereal
2007-01-28, 12:03 PM
It may be worth noting this is for a tournament so there's o nerfing involved, I can shapechange intot he most ridiculously pwoerful monsters and attack at 8d6 (10d6 if I don't have to move) damage a turn thanks to a combination of eldritch blast invocation and feats. So please, advise away.

NullAshton
2007-01-28, 12:20 PM
A choker would be an obvious good choice as it'll let you use two blasts a round.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-28, 12:33 PM
Before we even get into the different forms, you must understand that there are 2 critical rules not spelled out in the PH spell description that your DM must decide on:
1. Every time you change shape, do you recover hit points as per polymorph?
2. If you return to a shape you've already used with that casting of shapechange (or even that day if the DM decides it), can you reuse powers that are 1/day?

If the DM answers yes to both 1 & 2, the implication is that you find 2 shapes you really like, both perhaps with a nasty 1/day power, and you can just keep switching back and forth each round, not only to reuse that 1/day power but also to heal up damage.

Another less critical ruling that the DM must make is do you get the equipment? For instance, trumpet archons have a trumpet which for them is a supernatural ability. Balors also have a supernatural ability which grants them a vorpal sword.

Okay, onto the shapes up to 17 HD. We'll start with Monster Manual I:
Marut - this is an excellent choice. Defensively, you get damage reduction 15/chaotic, spell resistance 25, and fast healing 10. You probably don't get the full plate armor, which is good because then it won't provide arcane spell failure (not sure if warlocks care). But you do get a +16 natural armor bonus! Then there's the offensive side, with the fists that when they hit require dc31 fortitude saves.

Choker - as the previous poster noted, let's you cast 2 spells/round. Otherwise a weak form though.

12-headed cryohydra - you could do worse than having 12 attacks and fast healing 22. This is another great example of switching back and forth. It says all heads breathe every 1d4 rounds. So that's 12 heads for 3d6 each. Now, when you switch back, can you automatically do it again? You can really drive a DM nuts with this sort of thing.

Stone Golem - infinite spell resistance. Slow as free action.

Dragons, of course.

Leonal guardinal - lay on hands equal to your full normal hit points. You can see how broken this one becomes if you can do something that's ordinarily 1/day every other round (or switch between avoral and leonal and heal every round). Spell resistance 28 isn't bad either, and the holy word roar will use the casting level of 17, making it very effective at wiping out lesser hit dice creatures. The protective aura helps out, not to mention the pounce. Dr 10/evil and silver.

Planetar angel - spell resistance 30, 90 foot fly speed. Dr 10/evil, regeneration 10, continual tongues, same protective aura as the leoanl.

Dread wraith - incorporeal fun!, con drain, create spawn, lifesense. The DM would probably rule that once you shift out of this form the spawn don't love you anymore.

Hellwasp swarm - how about immunity to weapon damage? Use inhabit to travel around in host bodies.

I'll stop here. I think you can see now how shapechange is the most fun and the most broken spell ever, and I didn't even include balors & pit fiends because we capped at 17 hit dice.

Emperor Tippy
2007-01-28, 12:36 PM
Your better off with Polymorph Any Object. You can morph into a Great Wrym Force Dragon for 12 hours. Or an Iron Colossus, that lasts for an hour.

For shapechange just go and find the most powerful monster that falls within the HD range that you can turn into.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-28, 12:53 PM
Your better off with Polymorph Any Object. You can morph into a Great Wrym Force Dragon for 12 hours. Or an Iron Colossus, that lasts for an hour.

For shapechange just go and find the most powerful monster that falls within the HD range that you can turn into.

It doesn't say in polymorph any object that you gain the supernatural abilities of the creature in question.

As for your shapechange note, that's what the original poster was asking us to do for him. It's not as simple as finding the most powerful either, since different foes will require different forms. For instance, the hellwasp swarm will defeat most foes who have no way of fighting back, but against a dragon with a breath weapon it may not be the way to go. Becoming a dread wraith and making spawn is also quite useful, but if you are going up against an enemy cleric you could get rebuked :-)

Emperor Tippy
2007-01-28, 03:07 PM
Look at the Iron Colossus. Magic Immunity as an EX ability, AMF as an Ex ability, 96 HD, and DR 20 Epic and Adamantium.

The only thing that you don't get is its breath attack.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-28, 03:27 PM
Look at the Iron Colossus. Magic Immunity as an EX ability, AMF as an Ex ability, 96 HD, and DR 20 Epic and Adamantium.

The only thing that you don't get is its breath attack.

Sorry Emperor Tippy, but I don't think you can get iron colossus'.



Polymorph any object:
This spell functions like polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm), except that it changes one object or creature into another.

Polymorph:
The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.


I don't see how you could read it any other way. So if you have a 15th level scroll of polymorph any object, you are limited to turning the subject into 15 HD creatures or less.

NullAshton
2007-01-28, 03:40 PM
The shapechanging spell explicitly states that you only get the healing ONCE...

...wait, there is no such restriction. Huh. Apparently the mind creates restrictions to protect you from things that Wizards forgot to put in...

The Great Skenardo
2007-01-28, 04:14 PM
Delvers work well against Stone Golems :smalltongue:

Lord Sidereal
2007-01-28, 04:15 PM
ORLY?

:p yourself, next time I'll trip you up....

The Great Skenardo
2007-01-28, 04:26 PM
*laughs* Yes, I don't doubt it.

As DDMD can attest, I've been doing a bit of research on different kinds of forms with useful attributes.

Some examples and scenarios

Warlocks usually prefer ranged combat, but do you have the invocation Hideous Blow? If so, then you most likely will be able to hold your own in melee combat and still deal your wonderful damage.

Some good tank forms:
Cave Troll: MM3 A good series of attacks for getting in the fries of someone with low-to-decent armor and tearing them to shreds. However, if you only gain special attacks and not special qualities then you'll need to keep a more attentive eye on your HP
Delver: A nice ace to have against Golems and other magic-immune creatures. In addition, it can be useful against tanks and monks, because each strike endangers their weapons and their lives. However, most of them would be likely to make the 22REF save.
If you can turn into incorporeal creatures, this too is a good option against tanks, but not spellcasters. Just beware of the prepared barbarian with Ghost touch.

Against spellcasters (assuming you retain supernatural abilities), the Arcane Ooze can be quite formidible (MM3).

Talya
2007-01-28, 05:37 PM
You're 3 caster levels short of the really neat shapechange creatures. (Titan, Pit Fiend, Baalor)