E6 Wizard Advice

[Scottastic]

Hey guys, new to the forums. I have been reading through some old threads but didn't find exactly the info I needed.

I am playing in an e6 game (3.5, advancement stops at lvl 6 but gain feats each 5000 xp thereafter) and my DM has us roll just about everything randomly, including race, class, stats (in order, switch one) and this is what I ended up with.

Halfling Wizard (Thug background from Black Company)
Str 7, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 11, Cha 11
"Thug" background gives me Appraise, Intimidate and Survival in class. It also allows me to take either Unarmed Strike or Toughness. Can't think of any reason not to take Toughness. I get +1 Fort and +1 initiative too.

Anyway, I am trying to decide what to dip in, as there is little reason to take the 6th level of Wizard. Also, should I wait until lvl 6 to dip or dip earlier?

My thought was Spellthief (because of my crazy high dex) but any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks in advance!

[prufock]

Random everything is a crappy way to make characters, but I think you've made out pretty well here, apart from a few abnormalities. Halfling is a fantastic race for wizards, since they are small and have a dex (which you'll want for saves, skills, and ranged touch attacks) and a penalty to strength (which you'll rarely use).

Unarmed strike would probably be kind of useless. Of course, Toughness is one of the worst feats printed, but at least in an E6 game 3 hit points is still kind of relevant. With your low hit die it's probably the best option of those two, unless you want to make an unarmed attacking, weapon finessing halfling who buffs his own unarmed attacks.

As for dips, you may want to consider a prestige class. There's a thread for that, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204298) including what benefits you'd get from each PrC. It depends on what sort of wizard you'd like to be. Alienist would be good for a summoner, for instance. A dip in binder to get into Anima Mage is good, Mindbender is good if you want to go the Spellthief dip route - it will get you the necessary skills, and the Master Spellthief feat will give you enough CL.

It would probably help to know what kind of wizard you're looking to play. Debuffer? Buffer? Blaster? Battlefield control? Gish?

[Scottastic]

It would probably help to know what kind of wizard you're looking to play. Debuffer? Buffer? Blaster? Battlefield control? Gish?

I guess I haven't really decided yet. The party consists of a Druid, a Fighter and a Ranger so there's not a lot of high level (relative) casting going on.

I probably would be most useful in a support role since everybody else will be doing plenty of damage, but it seems like a waste not to take advantage of that Dex. I was thinking of using crossbow/thrown daggers for sneak attacking if I went with the Spellthief, but I guess I don't have a strong concept yet.

[Machpants]

The problem about getting a prestige class is they often have onerous entry requirements, which may balance out over 20 levels but 6?

Could you ask your DM to start Rogue (extra HP and skills) on the understanding that levels 2~6 you'd go the rolled Wiz?

Never seen a 3E game with rolled class and race before!!!

[The_Werebear]

I would recommend master specialist. You can get in early enough to get a minor esoterica, which can help out. It'll cost you a few mediocre feats to start though, which will slow you down until you get into Post-6 feat progression.

[Scottastic]

Never seen a 3E game with rolled class and race before!!!

My DM loves random. Most of our best stories come from the Deck of Many Things or custom magic items he's created.

Last campaign we found a rod that had 42 different random effects. They ranged from Magic Missile and a foul odor to Wish and experience loss.

[Spore]

If the player is not set on an certain character, rolling a character's class and race is actually fine. Although I prefer rolling up race and attributes (because the race and talents is not a character choice in a very simplified form) and then choosing your own "job" according (or not according) to your talents.

With your stats, Wizard with a singular dip in rogue fits nicely. Take rogue on 1 and have your background being a thug that tried to bully a wizard and got laid off. Then he started to admire using the smart wizard and became his apprentice. Tada, Rogue 1/Wizard 5!

[Scottastic]

If the player is not set on an certain character, rolling a character's class and race is actually fine. Although I prefer rolling up race and attributes (because the race and talents is not a character choice in a very simplified form) and then choosing your own "job" according (or not according) to your talents.

With your stats, Wizard with a singular dip in rogue fits nicely. Take rogue on 1 and have your background being a thug that tried to bully a wizard and got laid off. Then he started to admire using the smart wizard and became his apprentice. Tada, Rogue 1/Wizard 5!

While I like the idea (and it's pretty close to the backstory I was imagining) I'm stuck with wizard at 1. That's why I'm having a harder time deciding, because obviously rogue at 1 (or for that matter, spellthief) is preferable for the skills, that option is not available to me. Would taking a level of rogue later (at say, 2 or 6) diminish too much of the benefits?

[Scottastic]

Additional question, with the party as it is, would it be worth banning evocation for conjuration? It pains me to drop magic missile and fireball but conjuration seems so useful.

[The_Werebear]

It depends on if you have access to the Spell Compendium. Evocation is more useful at lower level when everyone has fewer HP and a single fireball is more likely to be able to smear a random encounter. However, the relatively lower saves and less magic protections mean that Save vs. Lose effects are also more powerful. Also, unless there are ritual rules or higher level scrolls floating around, you don't get Contingency, which is what keeping Evocation from being completely easily banned.

Spell Compendium spells can get you equivalent damage spells in Conjuration (The Orbs, the Fireball-but-a-cone-and-acid spell) to what you'd see in evocation, plus more generally helpful magic. If you have SC, don't worry at all about losing Evoking.

[incarnate236]

If you have access to Dungeonscape and Unearthed Arcana I would suggest a dip in Factotum for the +4 twice an encounter to your saves or ranged touch attacks and taking the Focused Variant for whichever specialization you choose in order to up your spells per day. You could use Dex with Weapon Focus Ray, the Factotum bonus and some other feats to make a pretty nasty ranged touch caster. Consider Ray of Enfeeblement or Ray of Clumsiness with something like a +12 vs touch AC at level 6.

[Spore]

While I like the idea (and it's pretty close to the backstory I was imagining) I'm stuck with wizard at 1. That's why I'm having a harder time deciding, because obviously rogue at 1 (or for that matter, spellthief) is preferable for the skills, that option is not available to me. Would taking a level of rogue later (at say, 2 or 6) diminish too much of the benefits?

Well the main points for being a rogue IS the skill points which get tripled on 1.

[Gemini476]

If the player is not set on an certain character, rolling a character's class and race is actually fine. Although I prefer rolling up race and attributes (because the race and talents is not a character choice in a very simplified form) and then choosing your own "job" according (or not according) to your talents.

There's some (honestly pretty bad) variant in Unearthed Arcana for creating random characters, but it sounds like what the OP had is a bit better than that. Mostly on account of only being for first level.

You know what's pretty cool, though? Drafting. Have a pool of randomized races that player 1 can choose one from, replace the chosen race with another random race and move on to player 2, etc. and then do the same for classes.
I'm not sure what the best number for the pool of available choices is, but yeah.
It's kind of like the Crusader's system for refreshing manuevers, I guess, but I based it on MtG.


As for the OP, take a look at this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204298)

[Scottastic]

So my DM is considering letting me start at level 1 multiclassed with rogue, per 3.0 rules. If he says yes I think I'm going with that.

Just out of curiosity, I am still allowed an attribute swap. If my DM decides not to let me multiclass, would it be worth it to swap dex for con? That would give me a dex of 14 and a con of 18. If it was a regular campaign I probably would have switched the two already, but won't the higher AC/reflex save help more than concentration checks and HP at low level?

[Spore]

True but regular blasts are not as powerful and you will likely live an Fireball or two with Con 18 OR Dex 20. You are more than doubling your effective HP. 1d4 is an average of 2.5, +3 from the extra Con.

Also failed Con saves are far worse than failed Reflex ones. You may just been hit by a trap but if you fail the initial Fort save vs. poison (which is a huge deal in E6) you might as well lay down and die.

[Scottastic]

True but regular blasts are not as powerful and you will likely live an Fireball or two with Con 18 OR Dex 20. You are more than doubling your effective HP. 1d4 is an average of 2.5, +3 from the extra Con.

Also failed Con saves are far worse than failed Reflex ones. You may just been hit by a trap but if you fail the initial Fort save vs. poison (which is a huge deal in E6) you might as well lay down and die.

Sold me.


As for dips, you may want to consider a prestige class. There's a thread for that, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204298) including what benefits you'd get from each PrC. It depends on what sort of wizard you'd like to be. Alienist would be good for a summoner, for instance. A dip in binder to get into Anima Mage is good, Mindbender is good if you want to go the Spellthief dip route - it will get you the necessary skills, and the Master Spellthief feat will give you enough CL.

Not in love with the viable PrCs available to me, except maybe Wild Mage. The idea of losing CLs for spells scares me, though, and my DM will definitely deny the practiced spellcaster trick. Also, wouldn't going Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Mindbender 1 prevent me from getting lvl 3 spells? I thought Mindbender only boosted spell slots and effective CL?

Any other thoughts for lvl 6? Or maybe I just go Wizard 6 and call it a day.:smalltongue:

P.S. How do you quote twice in one reply? Edit: figured it out.

[watchwood]

See if you DM will let you take a level of Martial Artist Monk (Pathfinder)? Int to dodge AC would be pretty handy for a wizard, and depending on how you interpret things being proficient in unarmed melee attacks would mean your melee touch spells won't provoke AoOs.

[gorfnab]

Slightly strange idea...how about Beguiler 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 1. Arcane Preparation and Co-Operative Spell are feat taxes in this case, however you're playing E6 so oh well. This set up nets you a better chassis than Wizard (D6 HD, light armor), a decent skill set (including UMD), the Beguiler spell list (which is fairly decent) and 3 spell levels per day off of the Wizard spell list (so basically 1 third level spell, or 1 second and 1 first level spells, or 3 first level spells).

[Scottastic]

So my DM has approved me to multiclass at level 1 as a Spellthief/Wizard. This gives me 16 more skill points to play with and some additional in-class skills. These leaves me with some questions on what to spend them on.

MIU: Is it even worth it in e6? It would take 14 total skill points to max it out (4 at creation and 10 more to get it to 9 after level 1). That would leave me with a less than 50% chance to activate a divine wand.

Decipher Script: Do I take 0, 1, 4 or max?

I'm going to put 4 into Open Lock, Search and Disable Device since I can, and we don't currently have a skill monkey. Anything else you can think of?

[Eldest]

Look at Unseen Seer, if you go Rogue. It doesn't lose you caster levels, IIRC.

[Scottastic]

Look at Unseen Seer, if you go Rogue. It doesn't lose you caster levels, IIRC.

It doesn't, your right, but the skill points to get to hide 8, search 8 and spot 8 (36 total!) is kinda crippling, don't you think? I wouldnt be able to train anything else after lvl 1.

[Stoneback]

Nothing wrong with a 6th level of wizard. Gandalf was probably a 6th level Wizard. More spells per day, bigger Fireball, more spells per day...

You should ask your DM if there is a capstone feat- a feat you qualify for by virtue of taking all six levels in Wizard.