PF Healing and Stuff

[Man With Dog]

Hi All,

So the past week or perhaps longer I have been going over the Oradin build and wondering how good it is without things such as the Phylactery of Healing (the 2D6 to Bursts)
I can see the fun in the build but at a mid to high level it looks like it would get swallowed up and become overall... not too great.

What I was wondering is - Is there something with the Oradin I am missing or will it run out of steam almost as soon as it starts and also - Is the Cleric still the top dog with heals or can the Oracle step up alongside and show him a few things?

If anyone knows of a good strong healing build for any class that can stand there, be a good healer throughout and maybe do something more exciting than MOVE - BURST - MOVE BURST please let me know.

I would be indebted, truly.

[watchwood]

I think you're missing the point of the Oradin. The drawing feature isn't the bursts, the drawing feature is the passive heals though Lifelink and the swift action self-healing, which saves your main action for beating people or or doing whatever else.

The bursts are a perk for when you need to turn it up to 11. (Also, look at the Mystical Healer feat)

[Man With Dog]

I think you're missing the point of the Oradin. The drawing feature isn't the bursts, the drawing feature is the passive heals though Lifelink and the swift action self-healing, which saves your main action for beating people or or doing whatever else.

The bursts are a perk for when you need to turn it up to 11. (Also, look at the Mystical Healer feat)

Oh no, I really do get that.
Kinda healing without a break and thus killing things quicker so not needing that extra healing so much. And ofc life link used on the front rank or squishy etc etc.
The only issue I see with Mystic Healer is it is 3rd Party isn't it?
Although I do like it

[Bickerstaff]

If you're allowed to use the DSP Psionics material, I would recommend taking a look at Vitalist. It is one of the most fun to play "healer" classes I've seen.

Otherwise, Cleric is usually a pretty good choice, as long as you're fine with mostly out-of-combat healing with the occasional emergency heal in-combat.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Mystical Healer is 3rd party and thus less likely to be used in PF. I really don't understand why, but there's a lot of prejudice against 3rd party content among PF players.

Anyway, IMO an Oradin build works best if you think of it as a Paladin build with an extended dip into Oracle. Plan on taking mostly Paladin levels and you'll do fine over the long run. The Paladin archetypes give you the freedom to really fill multiple combat roles, so you can power attack with a Greatsword, hang in the back and launch arrows or act purely as a healer as you desire.

My preferred build is Oracle 4 / Paladin X using Hospitaler & Warrior of the Holy Light. This build gives me channel energy from two sources and Lay on Hands, though my channels are rather weak. With this build, the Phylactery is pretty much a required item to purchase.

I've also seen a rather nice Divine Hunter build that doesn't worry too much about channeling. This build simply uses Life Link to keep the party stabilized while the Oradin hits targets that melee players are working on to finish them off.

[Spore]

Pure Life Oracle has the greatest output possible imho. You have spare healing capability to support a small village AFTER you're done healing your comrades. If you really LOVE healing then I'd suggest going for that.

Load up on buff spells and use your actions defensively and with buffing.

[grarrrg]

Is the Cleric still the top dog with heals or can the Oracle step up alongside and show him a few things?

If the Oracle is built for it, the Oracle will pretty much always beat a Cleric at [specific thing].
If the Oracle is _not_ built for it, a Cleric will pretty much always beat an Oracle at [specific thing].

Oracle with Life Mystery is easily better at Healing than a Cleric built for Healing.
But if a non-healing situation comes up that same Cleric will be MUCH better at adapting than the Oracle will be.
Likewise, a Cleric NOT built to heal will probably be better at healing than an Oracle NOT built to heal (partially depends on if access to spontaneous Cure/Inflict spells).

This works for most things:
Oracle built for it, is better than
Cleric built for it, is better than
Cleric not built for it, is better than
Oracle not built for it.

[Spore]

Likewise, a Cleric NOT built to heal will probably be better at healing than an Oracle NOT built to heal (partially depends on if access to spontaneous Cure/Inflict spells).

Your post is correct until this point. Sure, channeling is an important thing in healing but face it. Often times you either can't channel because you're in battle and would heal the enemy or one melee is heavily wounded that focussed healing is similarly useful. And the Oracle simply has more spell slots to heal up. I agree that the larger the party is the worse does oracle healing w/o channeling become.

But the possible health amount healed is neglegible. You either play some form of moderate game where your maximum amount healed is never really a concern or you play a Tippyverse game where you are dead by failed saves and not lost HP. Playing two oracles in two rounds with two Barbarians I have come to see that oracles excel in healing them (because they mostly get hit for triple the amount a normal party member gets hit).

[Man With Dog]

Soooo....

Am io led to believe as a pure 1on1 healer its Oracle.
If channelling bursts is my need, its Cleric.

If i want to do more than just healbot (which is ideal) then i need to go Cleric too as they are better at switching roles?
I know some of the spells Clerics get to improve themselves from a combat PoV but was hoping for something more... different.

[Firest Kathon]

If you are worried about in-combat healing, one option would be to use the Words of Power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/words-of-power) variant (from Ultimate Magic). While the Cure-equivalents are not as powerful as the actual spells (d6 instead of d8, can be boosted to d8), they can be cast at closed range instead of touch.

Obviously, you'll lose a lot of flexibility because of the quite limited list of wordspells available, so it's certainly not the best option available. But I think it's not too bad if you go dedicated healer.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Honestly, what kind of healer you pick really depends more on how the party deals with challenges and how much damage they tend to pick.

Pure Life Oracle has strong healing output, but is rather boring IMO.

The Oradin build is highly effective at healing and can stand up in combat as well. It just doesn't fully come online till mid levels and has some highly recommended purchases you should plan for.

Clerics are also effective healers and have a bit more flexibility due to being a prepared caster.

Paladins are boss killers and decent damage dealers which can also be effective healers with the right archetypes.

If you can play with the ACG playtest, the Shaman can also be a very effective healer with some blasting or debuffing capabilities.

Witch (Hedgewitch archetype) is a pretty good healer as well, with tons of battlefield control.

[Segev]

Forgive my ignorance, but I can't find it on the PFSRD (which doesn't mean it isn't there, just that I am failing to find it). Where and what is this "Lifelink" ability?

[Man With Dog]

I cant say i am honestly aware of the Hedgewitch but having battlefield control and good healing is definitely tempting.
The issue i ahve is not wanting to become a move, heal, move, heal, burst etc.
If all my rounds are doing this then ergh!

The Oradin sounded like an ideal heal and beat class but (i may be wrong) without certain items (namely that phylactery) it doesnt seem (correct me if wrong) it doesnt seem to have strong heals.
The burst pools (although 2 by going hospitaleer and WOtHL) are weak so not much use cept for out of combat which is fine as LoH is the focus.

Hedgewitch is interesting - Can anyone provide some basic info on this without linking as i am at work and have no access to PFSRD and such from here.

[grarrrg]

Am io led to believe as a pure 1on1 healer its Oracle.
If channelling bursts is my need, its Cleric.

Life Mystery Oracles are the only ones with access to Channeling*, whereas every Cleric ever has Channeling.

*Channeling that heals/hurts, two mysteries have Negative, but only for the purposes of controlling Undead.


Forgive my ignorance, but I can't find it on the PFSRD (which doesn't mean it isn't there, just that I am failing to find it). Where and what is this "Lifelink" ability?

Life Link is a Life Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/life) Revelation.
You establish 'links' with allies (no duration). At the start of your turn, if your ally is injured, they heal 5 HP, and you are damaged for 5 HP.
Basically, you give everyone else "Fast Healing 5", at the expense that you take all the damage.
This may seem like a bad deal, because you still have the same _total_ amount of damage, but it's kind of handy, as now all the damage is in one place. You ever notice how pretty much EVERY Cure spell EVER has a range of "touch"? That's one part of why "in combat healing" is bad, because not only do you spend a Standard to cast, but you usually need a Move to get to them as well.
Life Link dumps all the damage on you, so you just need to "touch yourself", and not run around the whole battlefield like a crazy chicken.

The Oradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257365) build combines Life Linking with a Paladin's Lay on Hands ability. Lay on Hands can be used on Self as a Swift action. Dropping the action cost from "Standard + Move" to "Swift" is what makes the Oradin decent/good at in combat healing.


The Oradin sounded like an ideal heal and beat class but without certain items it doesnt seem to have strong heals.
The burst pools are weak so not much use cept for out of combat which is fine as LoH is the focus.

The Oradin is both a primary Healer, and not a primary Healer.
Obviously it will never match a dedicated Full Casting Healer, but those get boring, so, why not?
Then again, if you have a more evil DM who likes to half-kill the party every encounter, you may 'need' to play a Full Caster heal-bot, if for not other reason than to pick up the pieces....

Once you get to Mid-levels, the self-healing does catch up quite nicely.
Fey Foundling is a _must have_ feat (if at all possible), as it basically 'Empowers' your Lay on Hands ability. Throw on the Greater Mercy feat for another +1d6 and you're good for a while.
And depending on Race, you can get as much as another +1 HP per Lay on Hands per Paladin level.
So a Tiefling with 4 levels of Paladin, with the 2 mentioned feats, can Lay on Hands self for 3d6+10 (6 from Fey, 4 from Tiefling), 4+ times per day.


Hedgewitch is interesting - Can anyone provide some basic info on this without linking as i am at work and have no access to PFSRD and such from here.

You lose your 4th and 8th level Hexes.
You get the ability to Spontaneously convert spells into Cure Spells (like a Cleric).
You also get some "transfer disease/poison to yourself" ability that isn't as useful as it could be.

[Man With Dog]

So is the general view similar to the following:

Pick either Oracle or Cleric for pure heals.
Cleric if i hope to do something inbetween dedicated heals.
Oradin if i wanna hit and reduce incoming damage?

With the levels i lose from going Oracle (if i go Pally) Would i notice a BIG drop in my LoH power? Am i righ tin thinknigi the bursts arent really useful other than topping up inbetween combats and IF i get that Phylactery?

And witch didnt deem as powerful a healer as the others but obviosuly, had other uses with their battlefield control hexes - but i didnt look in depth into it.

[watchwood]

There'll be a bit of a drop, but not a huge one. It'll still be a useful ability.

[grarrrg]

Pick either Oracle or Cleric for pure heals.
Cleric if i hope to do something inbetween dedicated heals.
Oradin if i wanna hit and reduce incoming damage?
...
And witch didnt deem as powerful a healer as the others but obviosuly, had other uses with their battlefield control hexes - but i didnt look in depth into it.

You got it.


With the levels i lose from going Oracle (if i go Pally) Would i notice a BIG drop in my LoH power? Am i righ tin thinknigi the bursts arent really useful other than topping up inbetween combats and IF i get that Phylactery?

It partially depends on just how many levels of Oracle you plan to take.
But there is a handful of equipment that gives +1/day Lay on Hands, and there are always Archetypes to help make up the difference.
A good number of Races get "+HP to Lay on Hands" (Tiefling is the best as it gets a Full HP when the others only get 1/2).

Greater Mercy Feat is nice for the extra +1d6.

You'll be fine.

[Man With Dog]

Tiefling wont be allowed in this group.
I will be allowed the standard races only as far as i am aware.
Thats the usual.

Could just take human and put that feat into a greater mercy or extra LoH.

I think at first maybe 2 levels of Pally - get LoH and then look to Oracle.
Get life link and at least 2 (possibly 4) into Oracle and then pump Pally.

That way, i got a good BAB and can hurt stuff. Not a terrible HP.
Can life link 2 (half the party) and LoH myself as soon as i start linking people.
If i take 4 in Oracle i will get the Channel too and then look to the Pally archetypes that boost LoH.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Witch is great specifically due to the Hexes. Healing Hex is a ranged Cure spell that you can use on each party member once/day as a Standard Action. Add in the CC Hexes to lock down enemies before they deal damage and you wind up with a nice combo.

Another fun alternative is the Gravewalker Witch, who can deliver touch spells at range (to targets within your Aura of Desecration) by poking a voodoo doll made of human flesh. And if an ally dies you can raise them as an undead servant. :smallbiggrin:

I'm usually not allowed to be the healer...

[grarrrg]

Tiefling wont be allowed in this group.
I will be allowed the standard races only as far as i am aware.

Half-Elf is probably the best 'base race' choice, but Human is right up there too.
Half-Elves can take the Elf/Paladin favored bonus for +1/2 to Lay on hands.
Half-Elf can also 'favor' 2 classes, so you could get a variety of bonuses from Human/Half-Elf/Elf.

Take a look at the Oradin Guide, Sample Build at the bottom of the first post to get more Half-Elf ideas.