How many people are thinking what I'm saying here?

[Lheticus]

I'm not sure how radical this is, really, the purpose of those post is to determine how obvious the conclusion I've drawn is. Just in case, I'm putting it in spoiler tags:

Holy crap. And unholy crap. And neither unholy nor unholy crap. Eugene KILLED ROY'S LITTLE BROTHER ERIC. HE KILLED HIS OWN SON IN AN ACCIDENT. What...is this I don't even. O_o

[Porthos]

I'm not sure how radical this is, really, the purpose of those post is to determine how obvious the conclusion I've drawn is. Just in case, I'm putting it in spoiler tags:

Holy crap. And unholy crap. And neither unholy nor unholy crap. Eugene KILLED ROY'S LITTLE BROTHER ERIC. HE KILLED HIS OWN SON IN AN ACCIDENT. What...is this I don't even. O_o

This isn't exactly new information. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html)

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure how radical this is, really, the purpose of those post is to determine how obvious the conclusion I've drawn is.

496 led me to the same conclusion - even at the time:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html

EDIT: Swordsaged.

[LogicalOxymoron]

I didn't realize it either when I read 496, but looking back it seems obvious... This one definitely got me to notice, though.

[NerdyKris]

I'm kind of surprised people didn't realize that before. What did you think Roy was talking about in 496?

[Porthos]

I'm kind of surprised people didn't realize that before. What did you think Roy was talking about in 496?

Well, tbf, that comic was posted six and a half years ago. People might have forgotten the finer details of it.

[SavageWombat]

I'm sorry, are you saying posters here don't reread the entire series every six months or so? I'm pretty sure that was the standard.

[veti]

Children dying in accidents is, unfortunately, something that happens.

In this case it was a magical accident. I don't really see how that makes it different from the tragically-common "reversing the car while thinking that the kid is still indoors", or "leaving the kid alone in the bath for 1 minute while you go find a clean towel", both of which claim an uncomfortable number of victims every year.

Bottom line, being a parent is hard, and people, even good people, slip up sometimes.

[zimmerwald1915]

496 led me to the same conclusion - even at the time:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html

EDIT: Swordsaged.
Were there people at the time who read that strip any other way?

[ChristianSt]

While I wouldn't say that 496 is ironclad proof, it is so heavily implied that I would have placed a bet on it.


Though I'm not sure if I would have placed real money on it, but at least REAL Monopoly money (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html)!

[ORione]

I'm kind of surprised people didn't realize that before. What did you think Roy was talking about in 496?

I thought that Eric had wandered into something dangerous, as undersupervised toddlers are wont to do. And that Roy noticed, but Eugene didn't.

Or that Eugene had accidentally killed Eric with his magic. One of the two.

[Keltest]

I thought that Eric had wandered into something dangerous, as undersupervised toddlers are wont to do. And that Roy noticed, but Eugene didn't.

Or that Eugene had accidentally killed Eric with his magic. One of the two.

Context has led me to believe a combination of both. Something along the lines of "Eugene is doing alchemy, goes to the bathroom, Eric wanders in, bad things happen."

[eilandesq]

I'm not sure how radical this is, really, the purpose of those post is to determine how obvious the conclusion I've drawn is. Just in case, I'm putting it in spoiler tags:

Holy crap. And unholy crap. And neither unholy nor unholy crap. Eugene KILLED ROY'S LITTLE BROTHER ERIC. HE KILLED HIS OWN SON IN AN ACCIDENT. What...is this I don't even. O_o

As others have pointed out, that part of it is old news ever since Roy's tearful, backstory-filled reunion with Eric in his mother's home in the LG afterlife. The *new* part is that Roy seems to be struggling with something specific about that incident before he dismisses the thought in favor of trying to come up with something useful he can tell V. Is he still unsettled that his father apparently was in denial over the responsibility for his younger son's permanent death (in fairness, it was only permanent because Eric was apparently enjoying his afterlife and didn't feel like coming back)? Or is it that in spite of his earlier, obviously perfectly reasonable observation that a pre-teenaged boy--even a bright one--isn't responsible for protecting his baby brother against the hazards presented by a high level wizard doing experiments without adequate precautions. . .and nonetheless he still blames himself for Eric's death? There's obvious ambiguity there, and that's as it should be--even in a world where the afterlife is a known quantity and that furthermore the child in question is *literally* in a better place, losing a sibling that way would be a hurt that never completely went away, and that would make trying to think it through a less than easy process.

[blunk]

Children dying in accidents is, unfortunately, something that happens.And it can even turn a good father into a bitter, cynical man.

[Kish]

And it can even turn a good father into a bitter, cynical man.
Of course, the only father involved in the situation in question was a self-centered man with no time for his first son even before his second son was born, in the absolute most positive interpretation* of a certain scene in Start of Darkness.

*As in, I didn't say anything about him forgetting Eric's existence or forgetting that his wife was pregnant...even though I think the idea that the point of that phrase was Sara choosing a very strange way to tell him she was pregnant is somewhere between goofy and absurd.

[Porthos]

... even though I think the idea that the point of that phrase was Sara choosing a very strange way to tell him she was pregnant is somewhere between goofy and absurd.

Which just goes to show you how different people read things differently as I thought that was the obvious reading of it.

But perhaps I watched too many American Sitcoms as a kid. :smalltongue: :smallwink:

[The Guardian]

As others have pointed out, that part of it is old news ever since Roy's tearful, backstory-filled reunion with Eric in his mother's home in the LG afterlife. The *new* part is that Roy seems to be struggling with something specific about that incident before he dismisses the thought in favor of trying to come up with something useful he can tell V. Is he still unsettled that his father apparently was in denial over the responsibility for his younger son's permanent death (in fairness, it was only permanent because Eric was apparently enjoying his afterlife and didn't feel like coming back)? Or is it that in spite of his earlier, obviously perfectly reasonable observation that a pre-teenaged boy--even a bright one--isn't responsible for protecting his baby brother against the hazards presented by a high level wizard doing experiments without adequate precautions. . .and nonetheless he still blames himself for Eric's death? There's obvious ambiguity there, and that's as it should be--even in a world where the afterlife is a known quantity and that furthermore the child in question is *literally* in a better place, losing a sibling that way would be a hurt that never completely went away, and that would make trying to think it through a less than easy process.

The pause could be something as simple as Roy having an afterlife flashback. Like, he starts feeling guilty but subconsciously knows that Eric is happy and with their mom, so he stops and.... moves on.

[blunk]

Of course, the only father involved in the situation in question was a self-centered man with no time for his first son even before his second son was born, in the absolute most positive interpretation* of a certain scene in Start of Darkness.

*As in, I didn't say anything about him forgetting Eric's existence or forgetting that his wife was pregnant...even though I think the idea that the point of that phrase was Sara choosing a very strange way to tell him she was pregnant is somewhere between goofy and absurd.I haven't read SoD, so thanks for the education!

And yes, I did word my post to give myself plausible deniability. :smallbiggrin:


Which just goes to show you how different people read things differently as I thought that was the obvious reading of it.Nope, I just figured I'd get a better response by asserting than by asking.

[Loreweaver15]

Of course, the only father involved in the situation in question was a self-centered man with no time for his first son even before his second son was born, in the absolute most positive interpretation* of a certain scene in Start of Darkness.

*As in, I didn't say anything about him forgetting Eric's existence or forgetting that his wife was pregnant...even though I think the idea that the point of that phrase was Sara choosing a very strange way to tell him she was pregnant is somewhere between goofy and absurd.

That is a very, very, very common execution of the "Surprise, I'm pregnant!" revelation. I'm surprised you read it as Eugene forgetting; he's a crappy dad, to be sure, but...the exchange is so common in fiction, especially comedies, that I don't think it can really be read any other way except as familiar shorthand.

[Gift Jeraff]

I, too, read it as a comedic way of revealing that Sara is pregnant.

[Goosefarble]

I'm sorry, are you saying posters here don't reread the entire series every six months or so? I'm pretty sure that was the standard.

This is what I feel about these sorts of things. I reread the comic like once a year at most, and even when I don't I scroll back through and occasionally pick a random page and start reading for a while.


That is a very, very, very common execution of the "Surprise, I'm pregnant!" revelation. I'm surprised you read it as Eugene forgetting; he's a crappy dad, to be sure, but...the exchange is so common in fiction, especially comedies, that I don't think it can really be read any other way except as familiar shorthand.

Also, how does it happen in SoD? I haven't read it, what's the execution?

[Kish]

Also, how does it happen in SoD? I haven't read it, what's the execution?
The ending of the "Eugene is clueless and insensitive to Roy" scene is Sara telling him he needs to pay more attention to his children, to which he responds, "Children?"

[Loreweaver15]

The ending of the "Eugene is clueless and insensitive to Roy" scene is Sara telling him he needs to pay more attention to his children, to which he responds, "Children?"

The whole quote is:
Sara: "I just wish that once--one time--you would put your children ahead of your work."

Eugene: "Sara, that's not fair! Do you know where I was--"

beat

"Did you say, 'children'?"

"As in, plural?"

"Honey?"

[Grey Watcher]

As others have pointed out, that part of it is old news ever since Roy's tearful, backstory-filled reunion with Eric in his mother's home in the LG afterlife. The *new* part is that Roy seems to be struggling with something specific about that incident before he dismisses the thought in favor of trying to come up with something useful he can tell V. Is he still unsettled that his father apparently was in denial over the responsibility for his younger son's permanent death (in fairness, it was only permanent because Eric was apparently enjoying his afterlife and didn't feel like coming back)? Or is it that in spite of his earlier, obviously perfectly reasonable observation that a pre-teenaged boy--even a bright one--isn't responsible for protecting his baby brother against the hazards presented by a high level wizard doing experiments without adequate precautions. . .and nonetheless he still blames himself for Eric's death? There's obvious ambiguity there, and that's as it should be--even in a world where the afterlife is a known quantity and that furthermore the child in question is *literally* in a better place, losing a sibling that way would be a hurt that never completely went away, and that would make trying to think it through a less than easy process.

I think even in 496, it seems that Roy's big hangup is that he feels he should have been able to convince his father of the danger. Looking at it objectively, it seems absurd to blame a child for being unable to dissuade his father, but it's the kind of thing that can stick with someone, especially someone like Roy. I imagine that, on some level, he feels like it's his own fault for not being quite persuasive or forceful enough to make his father pay attention.

[Finagle]

Honestly, in 944 when Roy says "and honestly, it could have been..." prevented is the next word I would choose.

That goes beyond an accident and into negligence. I don't want to get into the technicalities of tort law but "The core idea of negligence is that people should exercise reasonable care when they act by taking account of the potential harm that they might foreseeably cause harm to other people." There are other levels, like carelessness, recklessness, and criminal negligence. It could be as bad as depraved heart murder, which would mean that Eugene caused Eric's death:

1) while engaged in a grossly reckless act;

2) unintentionally;

3) and in causing the death did so with extreme indifference for the value of human life and the safety of others.

And the "for years" part seems to imply that at some point Eugene acknowledged his fault. However I don't think we'll ever get the whole story.

[CRtwenty]

Yeah, I figured Eugene was involved in Eric's death somehow based on Roy's comments in 496. This really doesn't explain a whole lot more about the incident in question, though it sheds some more light on Roy's thoughts about it.

My guess is Eugene was doing some sort of dangerous experiment, and Eric either wandered into it while Eugene was distracted, or Eugene made a mistake and Eric got killed in some sort of magical explosion. Roy seems to have been present as well, which would explain why he feels so much guilt over it. He probably feels that he could have stopped it somehow.

[Fishies]

The pause could be something as simple as Roy having an afterlife flashback. Like, he starts feeling guilty but subconsciously knows that Eric is happy and with their mom, so he stops and.... moves on.

But Roy doesn't remember what happened in the afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html).

okay. subconsciously, sure. nevermind then

[Math_Mage]

Y'know, it never occurred to me before now that people might not already know this. I thought it was as obvious as Eugene's Wizzy awards.

...Wait, maybe that wasn't the best example.

[factotum]

I thought that Eric had wandered into something dangerous, as undersupervised toddlers are wont to do. And that Roy noticed, but Eugene didn't.

That wouldn't really fit what Roy said about "not being his job to watch the grown-up". If it had just been an accident caused by Eric wandering into danger, Roy wouldn't have needed to be watching the grown-up to prevent it, would he?

[RMS Oceanic]

Honestly, in 944 when Roy says "and honestly, it could have been..." prevented is the next word I would choose.

I don't think so, I think Roy was on the verge of saying "...his fault." This fits with how he shifts the discussion back to Vaarsuvius' problem, by talking about how they care and admit their part in it all. And I think it fits with Eugene's character that he wouldn't speak openly about what happened to Roy, so even if he felt responsible, this was never communicated to Roy, which as Rich says in DSTP commentary is the moment Roy is estranged from magic.

[Lorin]

I, for one, think it went something like this.

"Ok, son. You want to see some REAL magic? Come to my lab. Watch it. Maybe YOU'll want to go by your father steps, unlike my other son?"

[DeliaP]

The ending of the "Eugene is clueless and insensitive to Roy" scene is Sara telling him he needs to pay more attention to his children, to which he responds, "Children?"


The whole quote is:
Sara: "I just wish that once--one time--you would put your children ahead of your work."

Eugene: "Sara, that's not fair! Do you know where I was--"

beat

"Did you say, 'children'?"

"As in, plural?"

"Honey?"

I'm away from my books, so I can't check Roy's age in that page of SoD, but it does suddenly occur to me: is it absolutely clear Sara is actually referring to Eric, and not Julia?

I believe the Giant's commentary implies Eugene spoils Julia in part as an over-compensation for what happened to Eric (which does seem to imply that, at least internally, Eugene does feel guilt and responsibility).

If Sara is referring to Julia, then it would be pretty implausible that Eugene wasn't aware of Julia's existence unless it really is Sara's way of announcing she was pregnant. OTOH, given what would have happened to Eric, Sara's sentence would then be a pretty crushing thing to say.

BTW: I took the exchange to mean that Eric was already born, but was further indication as to just how self-absorbed Eugene was. As a foreshadowing of what was going to happen to Eric, however, the exchange actually is pretty chilling.

A point that occurs to me in Eugene's favour: even after what happened with Eric, Sara stayed with him and had another child by him. That would suggest to me that, even if he didn't open up emotionally to Roy, he must have done better by Sara. And clearly he did then become much more involved with Julia's upbringing, than he had with Roy and Eric.

[Kish]

I have no opinion on whether the other child in question was actually born yet or not; I just don't believe that whole scene of "Eugene can't be bothered to remember anything about his son" was topped off with a random sitcom joke rather than another indication of Eugene having forgotten something about his child(ren)--whether what Eugene forgot was the existence of a child who was too small yet to demand his attention, or the fact that Sara had already told him she was pregnant.

Clearly Sara did not blame him for Eric's death nearly as much as Roy did (and probably not at all), however Eric died.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm away from my books, so I can't check Roy's age in that page of SoD, but it does suddenly occur to me: is it absolutely clear Sara is actually referring to Eric, and not Julia?

I believe the Giant's commentary implies Eugene spoils Julia in part as an over-compensation for what happened to Eric (which does seem to imply that, at least internally, Eugene does feel guilt and responsibility).

If Sara is referring to Julia, then it would be pretty implausible that Eugene wasn't aware of Julia's existence unless it really is Sara's way of announcing she was pregnant. OTOH, given what would have happened to Eric, Sara's sentence would then be a pretty crushing thing to say.

BTW: I took the exchange to mean that Eric was already born, but was further indication as to just how self-absorbed Eugene was. As a foreshadowing of what was going to happen to Eric, however, the exchange actually is pretty chilling.
The scene in question takes place 21 years before strip #001, and Julia says she's 16 when Nale kidnaps her. Eric dies 2 years before her birth. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html)

[DeliaP]

The scene in question takes place 21 years before strip #001, and Julia says she's 16 when Nale kidnaps her. Eric dies 2 years before her birth. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html)

Thanks!

Hmmm, looking at Eric's age in #496, (somewhere between 18 months and 3 years, I'd say), it would be consistent if Sara was pregnant with Eric in the scene in question.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

The *new* part is that Roy seems to be struggling with something specific about that incident before he dismisses the thought in favor of trying to come up with something useful he can tell V. Is he still unsettled that his father apparently was in denial over the responsibility for his younger son's permanent death (in fairness, it was only permanent because Eric was apparently enjoying his afterlife and didn't feel like coming back)? Or is it that in spite of his earlier, obviously perfectly reasonable observation that a pre-teenaged boy--even a bright one--isn't responsible for protecting his baby brother against the hazards presented by a high level wizard doing experiments without adequate precautions. . .and nonetheless he still blames himself for Eric's death?
As I said on another thread, IMO, Roy's guilt is down to essentially his inaction - he knew what Eugene was doing was potentially dangerous, and that even if he said something, Eugene would just ignore him, or ride roughshod over his concerns with "pah, my magic is perfectly safe and foolproof, nothing can go wrong, you're just a kid, what do you know about it?...". But he could have still spoken up, on the basis that Eugene might just have listened that one time, or tried to get himself and Eric out of the way.

[Warren Dew]

Honestly, in 944 when Roy says "and honestly, it could have been..." prevented is the next word I would choose.

That goes beyond an accident and into negligence.
Hardly. Everything can be prevented. "Reasonable" care does not mean "all possible care"; accidents can still happen, and Roy himself has no trouble characterizing this as an accident.

In the next panel, I think Roy is thinking about how he himself could have prevented it. That doesn't mean Roy is negligent, either.

[blunk]

Everything can be prevented.Increasing entropy? :smallyuk:

[SavageWombat]

Increasing entropy? :smallyuk:

I'm pretty sure you can decrease local entropy if you increase it somewhere outside the local area. So all we need to do is access another universe and dump our personal entropy there.

[Porthos]

I just don't believe that whole scene of "Eugene can't be bothered to remember anything about his son" was topped off with a random sitcom joke rather than another indication of Eugene having forgotten something about his child(ren)--whether what Eugene forgot was the existence of a child who was too small yet to demand his attention, or the fact that Sara had already told him she was pregnant.

Putting behind spoiler bars for detailed discussion:
No matter how many times you say this, I still can't understand it. I mean, Eugene forgetting the number of children he has or that Sara is pregnant is far more ludicrous in my eyes than the rather standard Sitcom Plot/Drama Plot of "Show that the father doesn't connect well with his kids [and is then told another is on the way]." (which is all I took from that particular scene, as you probably know)

What was shown in SoD (father missing soccer practice and getting the rules mixed up with other sports) could be a scene from hundreds of TV shows and films over the decades. Both in comedic and dramatic light.

Now I believe you disagree with the following, and fair enough ahead of time, but what I took from that whole scene was an ironic juxtaposition: Eugene cares about what happens to his kids/family in totality (Bar Scene) but blows it on specifics (soccer pitch scene).

That it is capped off by a comedic line? Well this is The Order of the Stick. :smallwink: That's practically a hallmark of this comic. Moreover, if you think it was too goofy for OotS (let that sink in for a moment), there's always the possibility that Sara was so pissed at Eugene missing another activity with Roy that she decided to drop the bombshell that way and storm off. Perhaps even both.

===

To put this another way, how is Eugene forgetting the number of kids he has or that Sara is preggers MORE likely than him finding out there and then? I mean, did Sara or Eric look in a Rift or sumthin'? :smalltongue:

I joke about the Rift only because of the recently controversy, of course. But still, really, which is more likely? Eugene for all his faults hasn't been shown to be that clueless. It's one thing to forget the rules of a sport. It's another thing to forget the existence of your own flesh and blood.

Mind, as I have said, there is plenty to beat up Eugene about. More than plenty enough as the comic has progressed. But this? Just not seeing it.

[Amphiox]

Keep in mind that we only have Roy's side of that story. I mean, we don't even have Sara's.

We can't really judge Eugene entirely on only Roy's recollections, which may be incomplete, and potentially biased as well.

All that we can say is that there was an accident, it involved magic, Roy blames both Eugene and himself for it (but more Eugene), and Eugene never acknowledged to Roy that he had responsibility.

It is quite possible that the truth is no one was at fault, and that it isn't fair to blame anybody for it. It could have simply been one of those bad things that just happen in life.

It is also quite possible that Eugene DID acknowledge responsibility for it, but just did not do it in front of Roy. He might have done it in front of Sara, or even privately, such that the deva who judged him upon his death knew about it and factored it into the judgment.

After all, Eugene passed the judgment. The deva told Roy that if he had not gone back for Elan, he would have failed and been "demoted". If Eugene had truly done something culpable that resulted in his own son's death, and never acknowledged or tried to make up for it, he should have also failed the judgment. So either 1) Eugene actually wasn't culpable for Eric's death, and it is just Roy who thinks he is, 2) Eugene was culpable but actually did something to make amends satisfactory to a being of Pure Law and Good, only that Roy does not know about it, or 3) Different devas judge by different standards of Pure Law and Good, and Eugene lucked out with a lenient deva!

[Liliet]

Putting behind spoiler bars for detailed discussion:
No matter how many times you say this, I still can't understand it. I mean, Eugene forgetting the number of children he has or that Sara is pregnant is far more ludicrous in my eyes than the rather standard Sitcom Plot/Drama Plot of "Show that the father doesn't connect well with his kids [and is then told another is on the way]." (which is all I took from that particular scene, as you probably know)

What was shown in SoD (father missing soccer practice and getting the rules mixed up with other sports) could be a scene from hundreds of TV shows and films over the decades. Both in comedic and dramatic light.

Now I believe you disagree with the following, and fair enough ahead of time, but what I took from that whole scene was an ironic juxtaposition: Eugene cares about what happens to his kids/family in totality (Bar Scene) but blows it on specifics (soccer pitch scene).

That it is capped off by a comedic line? Well this is The Order of the Stick. :smallwink: That's practically a hallmark of this comic. Moreover, if you think it was too goofy for OotS (let that sink in for a moment), there's always the possibility that Sara was so pissed at Eugene missing another activity with Roy that she decided to drop the bombshell that way and storm off. Perhaps even both.

===

To put this another way, how is Eugene forgetting the number of kids he has or that Sara is preggers MORE likely than him finding out there and then? I mean, did Sara or Eric look in a Rift or sumthin'? :smalltongue:

I joke about the Rift only because of the recently controversy, of course. But still, really, which is more likely? Eugene for all his faults hasn't been shown to be that clueless. It's one thing to forget the rules of a sport. It's another thing to forget the existence of your own flesh and blood.

Mind, as I have said, there is plenty to beat up Eugene about. More than plenty enough as the comic has progressed. But this? Just not seeing it.
I don't want to write a long post here, I just fully agree with the quoted poster.

[blunk]

I'm pretty sure you can decrease local entropy if you increase it somewhere outside the local area. So all we need to do is access another universe and dump our personal entropy there.I leave mine in Akron. And don't get all "Akron is in your system too", because IT'S NOT.

[halfeye]

I'm pretty sure you can decrease local entropy if you increase it somewhere outside the local area. So all we need to do is access another universe and dump our personal entropy there.
Locally yes, universally, no (the other universe idea is neat, if you find one let us know, we'd all like to dump our garbage in it, presuming there are no residents dumping it back out again).

[Warren Dew]

Putting behind spoiler bars for detailed discussion:
No matter how many times you say this, I still can't understand it. I mean, Eugene forgetting the number of children he has or that Sara is pregnant is far more ludicrous in my eyes than the rather standard Sitcom Plot/Drama Plot of "Show that the father doesn't connect well with his kids [and is then told another is on the way]." (which is all I took from that particular scene, as you probably know)

What was shown in SoD (father missing soccer practice and getting the rules mixed up with other sports) could be a scene from hundreds of TV shows and films over the decades. Both in comedic and dramatic light.

Now I believe you disagree with the following, and fair enough ahead of time, but what I took from that whole scene was an ironic juxtaposition: Eugene cares about what happens to his kids/family in totality (Bar Scene) but blows it on specifics (soccer pitch scene).

That it is capped off by a comedic line? Well this is The Order of the Stick. :smallwink: That's practically a hallmark of this comic. Moreover, if you think it was too goofy for OotS (let that sink in for a moment), there's always the possibility that Sara was so pissed at Eugene missing another activity with Roy that she decided to drop the bombshell that way and storm off. Perhaps even both.

===

To put this another way, how is Eugene forgetting the number of kids he has or that Sara is preggers MORE likely than him finding out there and then? I mean, did Sara or Eric look in a Rift or sumthin'? :smalltongue:

I joke about the Rift only because of the recently controversy, of course. But still, really, which is more likely? Eugene for all his faults hasn't been shown to be that clueless. It's one thing to forget the rules of a sport. It's another thing to forget the existence of your own flesh and blood.

Mind, as I have said, there is plenty to beat up Eugene about. More than plenty enough as the comic has progressed. But this? Just not seeing it.

I think it makes more sense to ask yourself, "which interpretation is funnier", rather than "which interpretation is more likely".

[Kish]

Putting behind spoiler bars for detailed discussion:
No matter how many times you say this, I still can't understand it.

I know, Porthos. And no matter how many times you say the contrary, I still can't understand it. We're supposed to take his words to Redcloak's brother as character-defining and the disregard with which he actually treats his son as less so? I'm a big believer in actions speaking louder than words.

I would add that you're simultaneously dismissing Eugene forgetting Sara was pregnant as "too ludicrous" and being preemptively dismissive of the idea that your sitcom thing could be "too goofy." Yes, there was a joke there. It was one more joke about forgetfulness and disregard from the character who had spent the whole scene showing forgetfulness and disregard, as much of a joke as the whole "home runs in soccer" line was a joke. The "rift" reference actually points to a good parallel; most of the Order forgot Blackwing because he was never important to them, Eugene forgot and ignored his children because they were only important to him for the wizards they would one day be. I don't object to your interpretation as "too goofy"; I object to it as a non-sequitur that takes the place of something that actually fits into the scene. Now, maybe Rich will post, "Kish, you're completely overreading the scene." I can't prove he won't, but obviously I no more believe he will than you believe he'll post, "No, Porthos, that actually was meant to be statements about Eugene."

[Keltest]

I know, Porthos. And no matter how many times you say the contrary, I still can't understand it. We're supposed to take his words to Redcloak's brother as character-defining and the disregard with which he actually treats his son as less so? I'm a big believer in actions speaking louder than words.

I would add that you're simultaneously dismissing Eugene forgetting Sara was pregnant as "too ludicrous" and being preemptively dismissive of the idea that your sitcom thing could be "too goofy." Yes, there was a joke there. It was one more joke about forgetfulness and disregard from the character who had spent the whole scene showing forgetfulness and disregard, as much of a joke as the whole "home runs in soccer" line was a joke. The "rift" reference actually points to a good parallel; most of the Order forgot Blackwing because he was never important to them, Eugene forgot and ignored his children because they were only important to him for the wizards they would one day be. I don't object to your interpretation as "too goofy"; I object to it as a non-sequitur that takes the place of something that actually fits into the scene. Now, maybe Rich will post, "Kish, you're completely overreading the scene." I can't prove he won't, but obviously I no more believe he will than you believe he'll post, "No, Porthos, that actually was meant to be statements about Eugene."
[/spoiler]

I don't own SoD or Origin, so I cant speak for whats in them, but in the main comics I have never seen anything that would suggest that Eugene is outright forgetful of his kids, even if he did not empathize with them at all. Its my understanding that even him missing Roy's game/play/whatever it was was due to a completely legitimate issue that came up, rather than simple negligence of Roy.

besides which, hes a mage, and an illusionist. You don't get good at either of those things by forgetting things or missing details.

[Porthos]

I know, Porthos. And no matter how many times you say the contrary, I still can't understand it. We're supposed to take his words to Redcloak's brother as character-defining and the disregard with which he actually treats his son as less so? I'm a big believer in actions speaking louder than words.

I would add that you're simultaneously dismissing Eugene forgetting Sara was pregnant as "too ludicrous" and being preemptively dismissive of the idea that your sitcom thing could be "too goofy." Yes, there was a joke there. It was one more joke about forgetfulness and disregard from the character who had spent the whole scene showing forgetfulness and disregard, as much of a joke as the whole "home runs in soccer" line was a joke. The "rift" reference actually points to a good parallel; most of the Order forgot Blackwing because he was never important to them, Eugene forgot and ignored his children because they were only important to him for the wizards they would one day be. I don't object to your interpretation as "too goofy"; I object to it as a non-sequitur that takes the place of something that actually fits into the scene. Now, maybe Rich will post, "Kish, you're completely overreading the scene." I can't prove he won't, but obviously I no more believe he will than you believe he'll post, "No, Porthos, that actually was meant to be statements about Eugene."


Hopefully the last bit on this scene from SoD from me (on this thread at least). :smallsmile:

For me, it's just a whole 'nudder level mixing up the rules of a sport and actually forgetting how many kids you have. To extend the Rift analogy even further, it's one thing to forget Blackwing exists because you never cared about the bird. It's a whole another thing to forget you're even in a group called The Order of the Stick.

If Eugene had been portrayed as an absent-minded professor type, it might just barely fit inside the mental box I could put it in (we could even bring in the comparisons to Elan and Belkar and their 'attention spans of goldfish').

But this? Especially when we have direct comments from Sara that he wasn't THAT bad of a father?

Just too much for me. :smallsmile:

As for Rich commenting in this thread? Well, I kinda doubt it as well. Only because there haven't been nearly enough flames here for it to attract his attention. Such is the curse of reasonable discourse. :smalltongue:

....

This is NOT an invitation to others to start flaming to attract his attention, BTW. :smallannoyed: :smallwink:

[Loreweaver15]

I know, Porthos. And no matter how many times you say the contrary, I still can't understand it. We're supposed to take his words to Redcloak's brother as character-defining and the disregard with which he actually treats his son as less so? I'm a big believer in actions speaking louder than words.

I would add that you're simultaneously dismissing Eugene forgetting Sara was pregnant as "too ludicrous" and being preemptively dismissive of the idea that your sitcom thing could be "too goofy." Yes, there was a joke there. It was one more joke about forgetfulness and disregard from the character who had spent the whole scene showing forgetfulness and disregard, as much of a joke as the whole "home runs in soccer" line was a joke. The "rift" reference actually points to a good parallel; most of the Order forgot Blackwing because he was never important to them, Eugene forgot and ignored his children because they were only important to him for the wizards they would one day be. I don't object to your interpretation as "too goofy"; I object to it as a non-sequitur that takes the place of something that actually fits into the scene. Now, maybe Rich will post, "Kish, you're completely overreading the scene." I can't prove he won't, but obviously I no more believe he will than you believe he'll post, "No, Porthos, that actually was meant to be statements about Eugene."
[/spoiler]

Kish, this is very directly a sitcom situation with a sitcom setup for a sitcom punchline.

[Nephrahim]

I didn't connect the dots until someone pointed it out in the forums, honestly. I knew he died in an accident, but I didn't think... I don't know, I figured it was just something like he snuck out and was attacked by a monster, not anything like that.

[Kish]

Kish, this is very directly a sitcom situation with a sitcom setup for a sitcom punchline.
Oh well. If you say so, there must be nothing more to the scene.

[Loreweaver15]

Oh well. If you say so, there must be nothing more to the scene.

No, I just...I don't know how else to explain it to you! There's a language comedians speak, a quantifiable undercurrent to jokes. This is a specific payoff to a specific setup that's happened hundreds of times. Assuming something else is just...strange.

[Keltest]

No, I just...I don't know how else to explain it to you! There's a language comedians speak, a quantifiable undercurrent to jokes. This is a specific payoff to a specific setup that's happened hundreds of times. Assuming something else is just...strange.

how about, "Its an inside joke almost everyone is party to."?

[Kish]

No, I just...I don't know how else to explain it to you!

You could try accepting that my disagreement with you is not based on my not understanding the concept of a joke or something, and that repeating, "This is what's actually there, you're wrong," when you're not the author, serves no purpose but to be rude.

[blunk]

No, I just...I don't know how else to explain it to you! There's a language comedians speak, a quantifiable undercurrent to jokes. This is a specific payoff to a specific setup that's happened hundreds of times. Assuming something else is just...strange.Does your sitcom interpretation actually conflict with Kish's interpretation, or do you just find the sitcom interpretation so complete that further interpretations are highly unlikely?

I don't know the source material but I like disagreements :smallsmile:

[Loreweaver15]

Does your sitcom interpretation actually conflict with Kish's interpretation, or do you just find the sitcom interpretation so complete that further interpretations are highly unlikely?

I don't know the source material but I like disagreements :smallsmile:

Very directly, actually. Kish is asserting that Eric has already been born and that Eugene has forgotten that he even exists; I'm asserting that this is Sara informing Eugene that she is pregnant, and this is a very, very common joke about how he doesn't realize it until a couple sentences later--mark for mark, reaction for reaction.

[Kish]

Does your sitcom interpretation actually conflict with Kish's interpretation, or do you just find the sitcom interpretation so complete that further interpretations are highly unlikely?

I don't know the source material but I like disagreements :smallsmile:
They conflict directly.

My interpretation is that the point of the joke is that Eugene has forgotten that Sara is pregnant, since the whole point of the scene is Eugene not paying attention to his child(ren) or to anything outside his magical studies, which Eugene justifies by saying that nothing Roy cares about now will matter once Roy starts wizard school. Loreweaver's interpretation is that Eugene had never been told that, because Sara's line at the end is obviously a silly sitcom joke rather than anything that could actually mean anything. 1 or 0; Eugene had been told before or Eugene had not been told before; the final line is Sara being unreasonable or it's Eugene forgetting something else he shouldn't have forgotten.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm willing to admit that Eugene not knowing/forgetting that Sara just recently became pregnant can fit the scene--even if I don't personally interpret it that way.

However, "Eugene missed/forgot Sara's entire pregnancy and Eric's birth" (something I've argued against several years back) is just plain absurd to me. It would make me think Eugene magically brainwashed Sara in order to get her to say the positive things she said about him in Celestia.

[blunk]

Interesting, thanks. I went back and read most of the relevant posts.

So there's a sitcom precedent on Kish's side:


Homer: I don't like your attitude, you water-cooler dictator. What do you have in that secret government file anyway? I have a right to read it.

Bureaucrat: [spinning monitor around] You sure do.

Homer: [reading] "Wife: Marjorie. Children: Bartholomew, Lisa" -- aha! See? This thing is all screwed up! Who the heck is Margaret Simpson?

Bureaucrat: Uh, your youngest daughter.... but here it's played a lot more obviously.

I'd tend to agree with the "you're pregnant?!" interpretation in SoD (as I've read it described here) but it *could* be read otherwise.

[jere7my]

Kish, this is very directly a sitcom situation with a sitcom setup for a sitcom punchline.

Uh, yes. I'm only a little surprised anyone would miss it, but very surprised anyone would cling to their first impression after having it pointed out to them. "Wait—did you say children?" is Comedy 101 for "clueless husband finally twigs to the significance of his wife throwing up in the mornings."

Note that that doesn't change the point of the scene as Kish interprets it. The point is still that Eugene is clueless, when a more involved husband would already have noticed something was up—morning sickness or his wife's emotional state or her big tummy or something. But to say he's so clueless that she told him previously and he forgot takes it from comedy to farce.

[factotum]

But to say he's so clueless that she told him previously and he forgot takes it from comedy to farce.

Or, perhaps, takes Eugene from being a basically good person with some bad traits to an out-and-out swine, which I suppose is one possible interpretation of his character--however, I think the scenes in SoD


(particularly the one where he refuses to get Xykon on Right-Eye's behalf, because of his family)


actually show Eugene in a somewhat better light than the crabby old man we see in the main strip.

[ChristianSt]

Honestly I am surprised about the turn this thread have taken. I personally can't read the scene in SoD other than a "pregnancy reveal".

I honestly don't think that Eugene did know anything beforehand. It might have been possible for him to connect some dots earlier - but we don't know how long Sarah is pregnant.

And from SoD it is pretty clear that the pregnancy in question must be Eric. Eugine says he has an almost 8 year old son (Roy) in his dialog with Right-Eye.

So either way he is more than horribly dumb/forgetting* (which isn't a trait I would connect with a high(?) lvl illusionist) or it is the first time he heard about having a second child.

[And yes he doesn't know Football rules, but that is not because he doesn't remember them, but because as Sarah pointed out he simple doesn't care. But from all we know - like the scene before - he somewhat cares about his family.]


*Someone brought up a comparison with a situation involving Homer Simpson. That is a character that realistically can forget anything you want him to forget. But sometimes I have the feeling that Homer's mental stats cant be much above the ability scores Thog has.


To the general Eugene-bashing:

Yes, from Roy's POV he seems like a really bad person. But I think that is a highly biased POV.
No other Greenhilt member (besides Horace) has said even bad words about Eugene. Sarah (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) defend Eugene against Roy's accusation. Julia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0364.html) even asked Roy to greet Eugene (sure, that could be played for the laughs only to get the "warded against that sort of thing").
Also he qualifies for a LG afterlife. I don't think they would make such an error if Roy's POV is correct on Eugene.

In short: I think we only get a clip-show of Eugene's worst moments.
He had only 29 appearances in the main comic (+33 pages of print only content). I think it should be rather easy to pick a similar amount of strips and taking only those into account claim that even Roy isn't LG.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

I don't own SoD or Origin, so I cant speak for whats in them, but in the main comics I have never seen anything that would suggest that Eugene is outright forgetful of his kids, even if he did not empathize with them at all. Its my understanding that even him missing Roy's game/play/whatever it was was due to a completely legitimate issue that came up, rather than simple negligence of Roy.

besides which, hes a mage, and an illusionist. You don't get good at either of those things by forgetting things or missing details.

I look at it as Eugene is a career wizard. It's all he's ever wanted to be, and anything else just gets in the way of that - including family. Also, IMO anyway, Charisma was almost certainly Eugene's dump stat. He's rude, abrasive and doesn't really tend to consider others over himself.

Remember that flash-back scene when V gets the divorce papers, of Inky having cooked a meal for V and sent their kids off somewhere so they could have a romantic dinner together, and V basically blows Inky off, taking the meal into the study and only acknowledging that the kids being elsewhere would reduce the noise and make it easier to work? That's Eugene as well.

In SoD, Sara is the one that makes the move on Eugene (well, if you count "Yeah, you'll do." as the move :smallwink: ), not the other way round - chances are, had he not gone into that bar on that night at that time and stood in that exact location, he'd have never been involved in any kind of a relationship, ever. And maybe they stayed together initially after what Sara probably thought would just be a drunken one night stand, because Eugene could produce some illusions to help with the mood... :smallwink:

He's aware he has children. He's aware that they have needs. But how many, and what they need? No, that's almost irrelevant information compared to the next spell he's working on, or being the great mage that he is, after all, Eugene thinks that there's plenty of time to make it up to them later, once they become a mage too and he can pass on what he knows to them and they can see and understand why he did what he did. And to an extent, his children are only there to continue his magical legacy - that not only is Eugene a great mage, despite being the son of a fighter, but Eugene's children are too, because of who Eugene is and what Eugene taught them while they were growing up - essentially, it's the same base drive as Tarquin has with Elan when he says that Elan will be the one to beat him and help Tarquin tell the greatest story ever - that the child's actions reflect even more favourably on the parent and elevate them beyond their own abilities.

He's probably also borderline OCD - he's very focused on the current project to the exclusion of almost everything else. After Fyron's death, revenge on Xykon was that project. Then when they originally met, Sara became that project. But his interest in projects wanes, and if it takes too much time to achieve a result, he eventually gets bored and drifts onto something else that he thinks is more deserving of his time - likely some great new spell that he's dreamed up, or the next Wizzy awards are coming round and he wants to win it again and prove he's the best illusionist.

[halfeye]

In my opinion Eugene didn't know about the pregnancy before that moment.

I don't like Eugene, and I think he's not on a trajectory to eventually get into the good afterlife he wants, but I don't believe he forgot about the pregnancy.

[blunk]

In my opinion Eugene didn't know about the pregnancy before that moment.

I don't like Eugene, and I think he's not on a trajectory to eventually get into the good afterlife he wants, but I don't believe he forgot about the pregnancy.My take on this:

* "person so absorbed in what he's saying that he momentarily misses some critical information obliquely presented": very common in real life. Comedic presentation can and should be subtle.

* "parent so irresponsible and/or unobservant that he doesn't notice a pregnant partner or know how many children he/she has": very uncommon in real life. Comedic presentation should be overt. See Simpsons example above.

It seems like real-life commonality and comedic subtlety correlate positively and probably strongly. It makes sense; a common situation needs only be alluded to, whereas in an uncommon situation, the audience needs to be reassured that yes, this really is an uncommon situation.

As such, it seems pretty obvious that the subtle presentation connotes the "person missing critical information" interpretation.

Hooray for dissecting comedy!

[Tombo]

To the general Eugene-bashing:

Also he qualifies for a LG afterlife. I don't think they would make such an error if Roy's POV is correct on Eugene.


Ah, but has he?
In the scene at the end of SoD where he's undergoing evaluation the angel(?) doing the evaluating doesn't give an answer because Eugene hasn't got a Certificate of Blood Oath Validation (CBOV), we don't know if he qualified for entry.

In fact re-reading that page it seems to me that the evaluation had only just started and the angel hadn't even started looking closely at Eugene's file

[ChristianSt]

To the general Eugene-bashing:

Also he qualifies for a LG afterlife. I don't think they would make such an error if Roy's POV is correct on Eugene.
Ah, but has he?
In the scene at the end of SoD where he's undergoing evaluation the angel(?) doing the evaluating doesn't give an answer because Eugene hasn't got a Certificate of Blood Oath Validation (CBOV), we don't know if he qualified for entry.

In fact re-reading that page it seems to me that the evaluation had only just started and the angel hadn't even started looking closely at Eugene's file

Ok, technically no one has said that I believe. But all indications we have point that he will be able to enter the the LG afterlife.

Roy expects it (otherwise his "don't visit the family" would make no sense).
Roy's Archon says that he is beyond the point where it would be realistically possible that Eugene would go to Hell (whatever that exactly should mean).
I read the scene there that Eugene would qualify for LG if it weren't for the Blood Oath
It would make sense to me that they evaluate him as much as possible, to speed it up once this Blood Oath is cleared. So if he wouldn't qualify for LG it would make more sense to send him somewhere else.

[Kish]

If Eugene ultimately simply breezes into Celestia after Xykon is destroyed, I hope, before then, that Rich shows something more to indicate actual goodness than "he had decades of an off-panel adventuring career." (Start of Darkness aside.)

[DeliaP]

I don't own SoD or Origin, so I cant speak for whats in them, but in the main comics I have never seen anything that would suggest that Eugene is outright forgetful of his kids, even if he did not empathize with them at all. Its my understanding that even him missing Roy's game/play/whatever it was was due to a completely legitimate issue that came up, rather than simple negligence of Roy.

besides which, hes a mage, and an illusionist. You don't get good at either of those things by forgetting things or missing details.

Actually, Eugene was just hanging out at a bar having a drink.

It was Right-Eye who tracked him down and made the event significant. Eugene didn't know that was going to happen.

Before this thread, I had taken the scene to imply Eugene had genuinely forgotten he had another child. Now I've come around to the "Guess what? I'm pregnant!" joke....

[hamishspence]

Actually, Eugene was just hanging out at a bar having a drink.

It was Right-Eye who tracked him down and made the event significant. Eugene didn't know that was going to happen.

There's a bit more to it than that:

Right-Eye had made arrangements with Eugene to meet up - hence he gives a password "The chimaera has three sets of teeth" and Eugene was supposed to give the countersign "Then its bite is thrice as deadly".

Eugene knew he was going to be offered some kind of Xykon-related info when he agreed to the meeting, I think.

[Porthos]

Ah, but has he?
In the scene at the end of SoD where he's undergoing evaluation the angel(?) doing the evaluating doesn't give an answer because Eugene hasn't got a Certificate of Blood Oath Validation (CBOV), we don't know if he qualified for entry.

In fact re-reading that page it seems to me that the evaluation had only just started and the angel hadn't even started looking closely at Eugene's file

Actually, the way I read that scene...

Eugene was about to waltz into Celestia, but then the Deva noticed the outstanding Blood Oath and said not so fast.

Mind, I would only put even odds at best for Eugene getting into Celestia after some of the things he did after he died (and, personally I would probably bet the under there). To paraphrase a different Deva, they don't exactly scream "Lawful Good behavior".

The most common objection here is the statement from Roy's Archon. Well who died and put him in charge? :smallwink: He may very well not know all of the ins and outs of Celestial Bureaucracy.

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually, the way I read that scene...

Eugene was about to waltz into Celestia, but then the Deva noticed the outstanding Blood Oath and said not so fast.
You might want to rethink that; I read that scene the same way :smalltongue:

[Porthos]

You might want to rethink that; I read that scene the same way :smalltongue:

Nah, this has nothing to do with Vaarsuvius, so I'm in the clear. :smalltongue:

[zimmerwald1915]

Nah, this has nothing to do with Vaarsuvius, so I'm in the clear. :smalltongue:
Touche :smallbiggrin:

[happyman]

I actually view this slightly differently than others in this thread.

Oh, don't get me wrong: I think that the end of the Bar/Soccer scene in SoD was when Eugene learned Sara was pregnant. My worst opinion of Eugene doesn't include "not knowing his wife is pregnant once told." Seriously, just no. If nothing else, the look on Eugene's face when the penny drops just screams "World changed." So, yeah. That's where I am on that issue.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that's not how Sara intended to tell him. She was *mad* at Eugene for both missing the game and not caring about it. I saw her sentence with children as either a Freudian slip caused by anger and the subject (children) or a bit of minor revenge because he was being a bit of a jerk. Either way, I don't see it as indicative of their long-term relationship having a problem *or* Eugene being that wildly out of it.

[Tombo]

I've just noticed something. After checking the scene at the end of Sod with Eugene in the afterlife I decided to re-read On the Origins... again. I got to the part where Roy and Durkon first meet and (spoilered for those who haven't read that book)... When Roy's standing in front of Eugene's grave and tells him/it he's graduated from Bash U. the last set of dates on the grave are 1168-1180. Roy died in 1183 and Eric eighteen years earlier (i.e. 1165/7) so Eugene died and came back more than a year after Eric's death (and a year or so before Julia was born). Why and how did he die?

Did he die of injuries sustained in the accident? Did he keep on experimenting after Eric's death? Did he kill himself out of grief?

Talking of the accident. A man willing to carry out dangerous magical experiments in his own home, to me at least, should not be able to use the "If I fail to kill Xykon he might go after my family" excuse

[Copperdragon]

Did he die of injuries sustained in the accident? Did he keep on experimenting after Eric's death? Did he kill himself out of grief?

A) Unlikely. In D&D you have a world with very advanced healing. So you either die quickly (minutes, hours at maximum, maybe days in exceptional circumstances) or not at all.

B) Yes. Of course. He did not seem very remorseful or changed from what we saw.

C) Very unlikely. Eugene is a self absorbed jerk, he'd never do that. And if he did, he would not have come back.


Talking of the accident. A man willing to carry out dangerous magical experiments in his own home, to me at least, should not be able to use the "If I fail to kill Xykon he might go after my family" excuse

Yes, it is very established Eugene is a liar who lied on a regular basis to his family and hypocrit when it comes to his duty and how he presents himself to Roy.

[Kish]

Talking of the accident. A man willing to carry out dangerous magical experiments in his own home, to me at least, should not be able to use the "If I fail to kill Xykon he might go after my family" excuse
Yeah, another disagreement point between myself and Porthos, though one that didn't come up this time, was that I consider Eugene's line about Roy's ball game being "equally pointless" to show Eugene's true feelings, and his words to Redcloak's brother to be strictly about finding a reason to decline more socially acceptable than, "I'm not interested in picking up a quest I abandoned a long time ago."

[Gift Jeraff]

But why would he care about appearing socially acceptable to a goblin? He makes it pretty clear the page earlier that he just thinks of them as evil monsters.

[Kish]

But why would he care about appearing socially acceptable to a goblin? He makes it pretty clear the page earlier that he just thinks of them as evil monsters.
That logic would lead to "Why doesn't he just teleport out, in the middle of one of Redcloak's brother's sentences, once he realizes Redcloak's brother wants him to do something he doesn't want to do?"

For whatever reason, he treats Redcloak's brother like a person then and there.

[Rift_Wolf]

There seems to be a tendency towards extremes here; isn't it possible that he makes mistakes rather than being completely self-centred?

I don't recall SoD with crystal clarity, but from the description, he tried, and got things wrong with Roy. With the accident that killed his brother, it's as possible that Eugene had taken every precaution but, magic being magic, things still went wrong. The question of his LG status seems irrelevant; you can be a good person, even if you're distant with your family, just as you can love your children but still be evil.
As for how Roy's brother died, chances are we'll never get the full story, if only bcause a drastic shift in tone to portray (as SoD, as I recall, was; there were some goofy jokes, but the second half of the story got serious fast)

[Copperdragon]

I think he made this particular mistake because he was self-centered. He went on experimenting, neglecting he had children in the house which in the past he never had.
While I also think that mistakes do can happen, how you then react to them can be driven by being more or less self-centered.

But this got me thinking: The Eugene we see is a pretty self-centered, rough person. What if he became that way due to the accident and Roy's constant accusations? Yes, Roy did have a point but repeating it over and over to a guilty (and feeling guilty) Eugene did not make it better.
While Eugene always did have those tendencies (as seen in how he treated his oath, what his wife said ("he is a very determined man and I had a good time when his aim was to make me happy"), as seen how he treated Roy (football) I think that the extreme we have been witnessing during the run of the comic only came in later.
In that case Eugene's way to deal with the guilt was to not think too much about it (he cannot change it anyway) while Roy's way was to rub it in his father's face (directly or indirectly) and whatever trenches were there got deeper and more fortified due to that. This also explains how Eugene to be LG in the first place but it also explains why he now changes as his past catches up with him. It also explains why he comes over as the jerk he seems to be: We only see him interacting through Roy, which admittedly aren't his best days.

As Roy's Mother put it: He always was a grumpy old man, he just had a young man's body most of the time. But the grumpyness just became a really dominating trait after the accident.

[Tombo]

I've been thinking about Eugene's death(s) today (what can I say, slow day at work). Spoilered, because you know... things...

Eugene died six times before old age finished him off for good, on at least one of those occasions he MUST have had a review before been raised/resurrected and been told about the outstanding Blood Oath. Maybe the celestial powers removed those memories when he was brought back, but what if he subconsciously remembered bits of info and realised that it would take (at least in his mind) a powerful magic user to defeat Xykon rather than just a big guy with a pointy metal stick (enchanted or not).

Maybe that's why he lost interest in Roy - as soon as his son (and possibly only hope of eternal bliss) started rebelling against arcane schooling and started picking up the family sword, Eugene realised (again subconsciously and probably selfishly) that it was up to him to try and find a way to defeat Xykon. That's why he started experimenting with dangerous magic in his own home. Eugene's ribbing of fighters wasn't just his own sense of the superiority of magic but also his unrealised fears. Eugene's been described as driven and focused but maybe some of that drive was out of fear?

Just my own theories anyway.

edited to add: Copperdragon's thoughts about the split are also very valid.

[busterswd]

I think he made this particular mistake because he was self-centered. He went on experimenting, neglecting he had children in the house which in the past he never had.
While I also think that mistakes do can happen, how you then react to them can be driven by being more or less self-centered.

But this got me thinking: The Eugene we see is a pretty self-centered, rough person. What if he became that way due to the accident and Roy's constant accusations? Yes, Roy did have a point but repeating it over and over to a guilty (and feeling guilty) Eugene did not make it better.
While Eugene always did have those tendencies (as seen in how he treated his oath, what his wife said ("he is a very determined man and I had a good time when his aim was to make me happy"), as seen how he treated Roy (football) I think that the extreme we have been witnessing during the run of the comic only came in later.
In that case Eugene's way to deal with the guilt was to not think too much about it (he cannot change it anyway) while Roy's way was to rub it in his father's face (directly or indirectly) and whatever trenches were there got deeper and more fortified due to that. This also explains how Eugene to be LG in the first place but it also explains why he now changes as his past catches up with him. It also explains why he comes over as the jerk he seems to be: We only see him interacting through Roy, which admittedly aren't his best days.

As Roy's Mother put it: He always was a grumpy old man, he just had a young man's body most of the time. But the grumpyness just became a really dominating trait after the accident.

There's a certain amount of validity to this; most of the jokes about Roy being a neglectful father are from Roy was a kid, and kids don't tend to have the most unbiased point of view. And trauma tends to reinforce old wounds pretty hard.

Bear in mind though, the trauma event is that he blew up his own kid through... well, you can't even say it was from unawareness, as according to Roy, he attempted to warn his dad that he was doing something dangerous. He took a deliberate risk with his own son. It's sort of on the level of dangling a baby out of a window; even if MJ's baby is fine, you don't put an infant in a situation like that if you're a remotely responsible parent.

SOD

There's also a 3rd interpretation of the child(ren) comment which kind of combines the two proposed already. Imagine Roy's mother showing ALL the signs of pregnancy; morning sickness, weird cravings, being late, maybe even excitedly talking about their new arrival. She mentions these and assumes it would be obvious that Eugene has been informed of her pregnancy.

The message falls flat because Eugene is completely self absorbed. When she offhandedly uses the plural form for child after a minor spat, THEN it finally clicks to Eugene what is happening.

In short, it's definitely not the first time she's told him, but it may have been the first time he's heard it.

It's got all the trappings of a sitcom joke mixed in with that tasty neglectful core we all know and love from Eugene.

[Porthos]

Personally I call Eugene a bad father for the way he arranged a job interview between Roy and Shojo.

There at least we more or less have the full picture. :smallwink:

[zimmerwald1915]

Personally I call Eugene a bad father for the way he arranged a job interview between Roy and Shojo.

There at least we more or less have the full picture. :smallwink:
Well, that's not really something he did in his capacity as Roy's father. More like Roy's talent agent. And if an agent goes around making deals without consulting the client? Yeah, that's bad agenting. :smalltongue:

[Ramien]

Well, that's not really something he did in his capacity as Roy's father. More like Roy's talent agent. And if an agent goes around making deals without consulting the client? Yeah, that's bad agenting. :smalltongue:

Be fair, though, the agent wasn't exactly able to contact the client through no fault of his own. And it's not like he even tried to raise his fee for the extra actions he took in making the deal. Offhand, I'd say he makes a better talent agent than a father... not that that's saying much.

[Porthos]

Well, that's not really something he did in his capacity as Roy's father. More like Roy's talent agent. And if an agent goes around making deals without consulting the client? Yeah, that's bad agenting. :smalltongue:

I think it's more the 'hiring goons to beat you up as cover for negoitations'.

...

Or did Eugene have enough faith in his son that he could survive a beat down from a Paladin? Meatshields being meatshields and all that.

Gosh, I take it all back. Eugene showed incredible faith in the abilities of his son there. :smalltongue:

Proving once again that blue text is for amateurs. :p

[lord_khaine]

Bear in mind though, the trauma event is that he blew up his own kid through... well, you can't even say it was from unawareness, as according to Roy, he attempted to warn his dad that he was doing something dangerous. He took a deliberate risk with his own son. It's sort of on the level of dangling a baby out of a window; even if MJ's baby is fine, you don't put an infant in a situation like that if you're a remotely responsible parent.

No..? :smallconfused:

We still only have Roy's side of the event, we need Eugene's side before we can claim that he took a deliberate act.

And as for Roy trying to warn him, we dont know anything whatsoever about the situation, so we cant know if Eugene should have listened to Roy there.
Dont forget that Euguene is the expert there, he would have been the one most suited for estimating risks in general.

[Ridureyu]

Well, we know that Roy is evil and a liar. So likely, he was trying to kill his brother, and Eugene attempted to stop him.

[snikrept]

I read it that Roy in 944 speaks haltingly not because there is more to reveal, but because he doesn't have closure yet. He doesn't remember 496 or anything else from the Mountain.

[hamishspence]

He says it's a "big happy fulfilling blur"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html

I could see him now having "closure" even if he doesn't remember why.

Like him recalling the "idea for a cool sword move" even if not who gave him it.

And he does remember everything from the clouds outside the mountain, at least.

[RMS Oceanic]

I read it that Roy in 944 speaks haltingly not because there is more to reveal, but because he doesn't have closure yet. He doesn't remember 496 or anything else from the Mountain.

Well 496 doesn't provide closure in this case: What's unfulfilled for Roy in this case is his Father's role in it. He'd have to hash it out with Eugene to really move on.

[busterswd]

No..? :smallconfused:

We still only have Roy's side of the event, we need Eugene's side before we can claim that he took a deliberate act.

And as for Roy trying to warn him, we dont know anything whatsoever about the situation, so we cant know if Eugene should have listened to Roy there.
Dont forget that Euguene is the expert there, he would have been the one most suited for estimating risks in general.

I'm not saying Eugene killed Eric on purpose, but I am saying that if you're bringing a newborn into a potentially explosive situation, or you create an environment where a newborn can be exposed to it, AND on top of that, someone tried to notify you of a potential problem, there is a level of negligence associated with that, regardless of the outcome. It's pretty strongly implied that Eugene took a knowing risk with a baby around. That is the difference between an accident and negligence. Negligence involves a degree of willing disregard to take reasonable precautions.

[ChristianSt]

It's pretty strongly implied that Eugene took a knowing risk with a baby around.

I wouldn't say that. We know that


Eric died
Eugene was involved
Roy thinks he could have prevented it
Roy thinks Eugene is responsible for it


Beyond that we simple don't know. Maybe Eugene was a bit careless. Maybe someone else didn't fulfill his job at babysitting Eric. Considering only one viewpoint doesn't tell the whole story (especially if we only get more or less cryptic hints about what happened).

[FLHerne]

I wouldn't say that. We know that

Eric died
Eugene was involved
Roy thinks he could have prevented it
Roy thinks Eugene is responsible for it

Beyond that we simple don't know.You're missing some bits. We also know from 496 that

Roy [believed he] knew whatever Eugene was doing was dangerous
Eugene actively dismissed those concerns and continued with Eric around

Continuing with something dangerous (presumably obviously so, if young Roy could tell that) in the presence of small children, while dismissing others' concerns, is clearly negligent.

[Rodin]

While I see the desite to be fair to Eugene....I'm not exactly inclined to be.

Even if he was exercising perfect safety precautions for himself, it is entirely in keeping with what we know of him for Eugene to have simply been wrapped up in his work and ignoring his children when Eric smudged the protective rune or tipped over a beaker or whatever caused the accident.

Eugene was supposed to be minding the kids. Instead he was doing a potentially dangerous experiment, and Eric got somewhere he shouldn't. There's not a whole lot of wiggle room on who's fault that is.

[ChristianSt]

You're missing some bits. We also know from 496 that

Roy [believed he] knew whatever Eugene was doing was dangerous
Eugene actively dismissed those concerns and continued with Eric around

Continuing with something dangerous (presumably obviously so, if young Roy could tell that) in the presence of small children, while dismissing others' concerns, is clearly negligent.

We don't even know for sure whether Eugene knew Eric was there. Maybe Sarah did say she him them to his aunt, but returned early? Or Eugene was in his secret research lab (maybe even outside of town) and Eric managed to run away from playing outside?

Also there is no indication about when Roy did 'talk' to Eugene about it. And we don't know whether Eugene did something in response to it or not. Maybe he did even react to Roy without showing? (Maybe Roy even disrupted him in his research?)

I'm not into D&D, so I don't know if there is a analogous concept in D&D, but at least from my experience most magic system in RPGs have the possibility to result in horribly accidents, so casting any spell in the near of any infant/kid should be forbidden, because it is just inherently dangerous.


We simply have too few information about what happened (and on top of it, it seems to me that this few tidbits are biased, too).


I really don't want to defend Eugene (because from all we see from him on camera he sure seems not like someone I would call nice/caring/good). But just chastising him because of a few rather nebulous sentences from Roy is really judgemental.

[busterswd]

I'm not into D&D, so I don't know if there is a analogous concept in D&D, but at least from my experience most magic system in RPGs have the possibility to result in horribly accidents, so casting any spell in the near of any infant/kid should be forbidden, because it is just inherently dangerous.

This is exactly my point, actually. It's putting his kid into a situation where there is potential to be blown up that shows he's a negligent father. The other tidbit is that I don't believe magical research in DnD is that inherently dangerous, it just takes time. Meaning that using a SAFE magic system, he still somehow managed to blow up his kid. In other words, he was consciously using magic with the potential to explode.

This is going to come out wrong, but it's not the fact that his actions lead to his kid's death that make Eugene a bad father. It's the fact that Eugene put him in a situation like that in the first place. You don't make bombs when your wife is out and you're supposed to be babysitting, even if you're an expert bomb maker.

[Lheticus]

Jessica Z. Louise, what kind of worm can have I opened here?! And then I go and open ANOTHER one?!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=331664

(hint, hint) XD

[factotum]

Continuing with something dangerous (presumably obviously so, if young Roy could tell that)

Maybe whatever it was *wasn't* normally dangerous? Maybe the accident that occurred was a one-in-a-million event that no reasonable person could have foreseen happening? Obviously Roy thinks the event was dangerous *now*, because he knows it killed his little brother--there's no indication that he knew it was dangerous beforehand.

[Rodin]

Maybe whatever it was *wasn't* normally dangerous? Maybe the accident that occurred was a one-in-a-million event that no reasonable person could have foreseen happening? Obviously Roy thinks the event was dangerous *now*, because he knows it killed his little brother--there's no indication that he knew it was dangerous beforehand.

Regardless, the line about how it was the adult's responsiblity to look after Eric, not Roy's, makes it clear that Eric got somewhere where a supervised child shouldn't have been able to get.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Regardless, the line about how it was the adult's responsiblity to look after Eric, not Roy's, makes it clear that Eric got somewhere where a supervised child shouldn't have been able to get.
Really? To me, it says that Eugene should have been making sure both Eric and Roy were as protected as possible from whatever he was doing - for example, casting hold portal or wizard lock on the doors so they couldn't get into Eugene's lab, or walls of force to contain any explosions - not that Eric did something he shouldn't have.

[Loreweaver15]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall reading something that said that any magical research, mechanically, no matter how small, has an infinitesimal chance of literally blowing up in your face?

Just trying to get a handle on the situation, mind.

[Hopeless]

Hmm what if the research he was doing involved scrying Xykon and the lich had defences that caused the explosion that killed Eric?

From Roy's point of view it was his father to blame and his father had problems of his own trying to figure out what had happened!

[Keltest]

Hmm what if the research he was doing involved scrying Xykon and the lich had defences that caused the explosion that killed Eric?

From Roy's point of view it was his father to blame and his father had problems of his own trying to figure out what had happened!

Ive never heard of any sort of anti-scrying measures that do more than give mental feedback. I suppose its possible, but given how Redcloak had to fight to get the anti-magic runes installed, it seems rather unlikely.

[DeliaP]

Hmm what if the research he was doing involved scrying Xykon and the lich had defences that caused the explosion that killed Eric?

From Roy's point of view it was his father to blame and his father had problems of his own trying to figure out what had happened!

Timescale doesn't seem to add up: in SoD

Right-Eye arranges to meet Eugene in a bar, prepared to hand over a better package of detailed information on how to get to Xykon that Eugene had even had a sniff of during his entire adventuring days. Eugene flat turned Right-Eye down, and told him he'd given up on vengeance.

That scene was probably when Sara was pregnant with Eric, or not long after, and Eugene turned his back on the best chance he ever got at Xykon then. Why would he be scrying on Xykon only a couple of years later?

Mind you, there is a potential different light on Eugene's character, if we get a reveal that after the conversation with Right-Eye, Eugene reconsidered things and started to think about how he needed to track down Xykon after all.... maybe even thinking about how the Blood Oath would get handed down on to his kids if he didn't, and he didn't want them to be burdened with it... and then something blows up and Eric gets killed. At that point he really decides to give up the Blood Oath for the sake of his family (while preparing to hand the fulfillment to the next generation).

But it's not really consistent with what Roy's Deva said to Eugene, nor with what indications we have of Eugene's character (even including the charitable reading of what Sara said).

(So I'm going to stop now before this shrub beside me starts shaking without any wind!!!!)

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Timescale doesn't seem to add up: in SoD

Right-Eye arranges to meet Eugene in a bar, prepared to hand over a better package of detailed information on how to get to Xykon that Eugene had even had a sniff of during his entire adventuring days. Eugene flat turned Right-Eye down, and told him he'd given up on vengeance.

That scene was probably when Sara was pregnant with Eric, or not long after, and Eugene turned his back on the best chance he ever got at Xykon then. Why would he be scrying on Xykon only a couple of years later?

Well, if Sara was pregnant with Eric (I'm not sure on their timescales myself at the moment, but why would Sara be at Roy's football match without Eric in a pram or buggy if he had already been born?), Eugene didn't know it at the time he met with Right-Eye. He turned Right-Eye down based on Roy and Sara alone (the most charitable interpretation of his actions :smallwink: ).

If I had to guess at the actual event that killed Eric, Eugene was probably working on his next Wizzy award entry when something went badly wrong.

For scrying on Xykon, don't forget that Cloister, an Epic-level anti-divination spell and presumably the most powerful thing Xykon's got available along those lines (and something he doesn't use until Azure City), simply caused V's spells to throw up a 404 error, it didn't fry V's brain or blow up Hinjo's ship with feedback. Ditto for the effects of whatever spell Girard's group had that blocked Durkon's attempt to cast Find The Path.

Although I could potentially see aggressive counter-spells, similar to William Gibson's descriptions of ICE, that could track back along the scry spell and potentially injure or kill the scryer. Even a scry-trace that allows you to know roughly where someone scrying on you is located would be useful.



Mind you, there is a potential different light on Eugene's character, if we get a reveal that after the conversation with Right-Eye, Eugene reconsidered things and started to think about how he needed to track down Xykon after all.... maybe even thinking about how the Blood Oath would get handed down on to his kids if he didn't, and he didn't want them to be burdened with it... and then something blows up and Eric gets killed. At that point he really decides to give up the Blood Oath for the sake of his family (while preparing to hand the fulfillment to the next generation).

But it's not really consistent with what Roy's Deva said to Eugene, nor with what indications we have of Eugene's character (even including the charitable reading of what Sara said).

To be honest, I don't really think that Eugene gave any further thought to it until he found out that he didn't have long left to live, started to put his affairs in order, realised that he still had the Blood Oath hanging over him, and ... (OotPC/SoD)

decided to tell Roy so that he could pass it onto Julia. Then after he died, he tried to bluff his way past his Deva as though it had been dealt with and the Deva didn't need to be worried about it.