[3.5] What prohibitions are there for what counts as a valid sneak attack?

[Kraken]

Sneak Attack:If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Basically, the rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. (See Table 8–5: Attack Roll Modifiers and Table 8–6: Armor Class Modifiers, page 151, for combat situations in which the rogue flanks an opponent or the opponent loses his Dexterity bonus to AC.)

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. A rogue can’t strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty, because she must make optimal use of her weapon in order to execute a sneak attack. (See Nonlethal Damage, page 146.)

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment (see page 152) or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.


attack: Any of numerous actions intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent. The outcome of an attack is determined by an attack roll.

I read the sneak attack entry as saying that anything that's an attack within 30' can have sneak attack damage applied, and the PHB then defines attack in its glossary. Based on this information, am I correct in assuming that anything for which there is an attack roll can have sneak attack damage applied, or that anything specifically labelled an attack (thus overriding the definition general of attack) can have sneak attack damage applied, regardless of whether it features an a attack roll?

[HunterOfJello]

Sneak Attack is later defined as a type of Precision Damage which is extrapolated on in the Rules Compendium.

The use of Sneak Attack through methods other than weapons is expanded upon and defined in Complete Arcane's weapon-like spells section. The Rules Compendium also covers this pretty well (as does one or two of the online expanded articles too).

~~

The gist of what you'll end up reading in those books is that if something has an attack roll, then it can be a sneak attack. Sneak attacks that are done with spells or SLAs do the same type of damage as the spell does, unless that happens to be ability damage.

The Rules Compendium defines several other things about precision damage such as the fact that a critical hit with a sneak attack does not multiply "extra damage dice". It also says that if you are using a Standard Action, then you can only apply precision damage a single time through that standard action. However, if you are using a Full-Round Action, then you can apply precision damage as much as you like. Therefore, if you are a rogue/sorcerer who is going to cast Scorching Ray you should be sure to add a metamagic of some sort to the spell to turn it into a Full-Round Action that will then allow you to do a sneak attack on each of the rays instead of just one.

[Kraken]

The bigger confusion comes with area attacks, I suppose. Is there language prohibiting an area effect that's labeled an attack from being a sneak attack?

[Turion]

The bigger confusion comes with area attacks, I suppose. Is there language prohibiting an area effect that's labeled an attack from being a sneak attack?

If it requires an attack roll (i.e. 1d20 + BAB + modifiers), it counts for sneak attack. I'm kinda curious what area effects require attack rolls, though; typically those force reflex saves instead of targeting AC.

[Kraken]

I'm not curious about things that require an attack roll, I'm curious about things that don't require an attack roll, but are labeled as attacks, such as some breath weapons.

[Douglas]

Sneak Attack requires an attack roll. If it doesn't have an attack roll, it doesn't get sneak attack unless something explicitly overrides that, such as the 10th level ability of Pathfinder's version of Arcane Trickster.

[TuggyNE]

I'm not curious about things that require an attack roll, I'm curious about things that don't require an attack roll, but are labeled as attacks, such as some breath weapons.

Those are attacks for purposes of spells like sanctuary or invisibility or charm monster: they're offensive actions. They are not attacks for purposes of the action economy or making attack rolls or most special abilities.

It's not really your fault that the terminology is confusing, though.

[Phelix-Mu]

Strict adherence to their own defined language is a decided weak point of 3e (and, actually, almost every edition), but, as a mathematician and a writer, I know that it's asking a great deal that exactitude and internal consistency be present in a project as big as D&D.

But I still like to rant about how badly it was handled in some places *cough* gate *cough*.

[gorfnab]

This may be of use to you:
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Two) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Four) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a)

[Artillery]

Hmm, I just realized that alchemist fire is amazing with sneak attack.

Attacking with alchemist fire requires a ranged touch attack to hit. Sneak attack requires they be denied their dex to ac. So when ever you can sneak attack with it you only need to hit 10+size mod+deflection bonus.

Would all the damage be considered fire or just the d6 originally from the flask?

[Just to Browse]

The bonus damage from sneak attack is untyped, so you deal the d6 of fire and the Xd6 of sneak attack separately. That strategy is so good, that it's the foundation of the flask rogue, who tosses acid flasks (they're cheaper) from range with as many attacks as possible.

[shylocke]

I read the sneak attack entry as saying that anything that's an attack within 30' can have sneak attack damage applied, and the PHB then defines attack in its glossary. Based on this information, am I correct in assuming that anything for which there is an attack roll can have sneak attack damage applied, or that anything specifically labelled an attack (thus overriding the definition general of attack) can have sneak attack damage applied, regardless of whether it features an a attack roll?

Any targeted attack works. No AoE or status effect spells. Sneak.attack ray of.frost is awesome

[TuggyNE]

The bonus damage from sneak attack is untyped, so you deal the d6 of fire and the Xd6 of sneak attack separately. That strategy is so good, that it's the foundation of the flask rogue, who tosses acid flasks (they're cheaper) from range with as many attacks as possible.

Actually, the sneak attack damage is the same type as whatever enables it, per RC, so you get (X+1)d6 acid damage per flask. Generally TWF, because the penalties are almost irrelevant.

[nedz]

The spell has to do lethal damage too, not necessarily HP damage.
E.g. Enervation would do 1d4 negative levels + xd6 (sneak) (negative energy) damage (HP)

[Chronos]

It doesn't have to be lethal damage: You can sneak attack with a sap, for instance (which would cause the sneak attack damage to also be nonlethal).

[nedz]

Hmm, maybe I'm wrong on that point. CArc p 85-86 does seem to support the ability to do non-lethal sneak damage with weapon-like spells; but I'm sure I came across a contradictory ruling somewhere recently :smallconfused:

[shylocke]

The spell has to do lethal damage too, not necessarily HP damage.
E.g. Enervation would do 1d4 negative levels + xd6 (sneak) (negative energy) damage (HP)

I'm not sure you can sneak atk enervation. Pretty sure it needs to be a weapon like spell and deal actual lethal or nonlethal dmg

[nedz]

I'm not sure you can sneak atk enervation. Pretty sure it needs to be a weapon like spell and deal actual lethal or nonlethal dmg

CArc p86 — the paragraph on using sneak attacks with weapon-like spells — specifically cites Enervation as it's example.

[Kraken]

No AoE or status effect spells.

I'm aware that this is the conventional wisdom, what I'm seeking is the language that backs it up. A dragon's crush attack, for instance, has no attack roll, but is called an attack.

For what it's worth, I didn't have anything particular in mind as a result of this, it's all just academic. My curiosity was aroused by someone who was playing for the first time. They're a rogue with a wand of fireball, and at the table nobody was able to prove to them conclusively that fireballs aren't attacks. I didn't think to look in the back of the PHB to see whether attack was defined (which astonished me, frankly) until after the session, and while it removes doubt about fireball, it doesn't about other things.

[icefractal]

AFAIK, the relevant part is that it needs an attack roll. So Meteor Swarm, you actually could sneak attack with (increasing the impact damage, not the explosion damage).

[Kraken]

Again, where do it say that? Sneak attack itself requires that something only be considered an attack, not that it have an attack roll. While the PHB does give a definition of an attack, anything explicitly called an attack, such as a dragon's crush ability, should qualify, unless there's language elsewhere prohibiting such. Gaze attacks are another curiosity.

[shylocke]

Sneak attack is a precision strike

[nedz]

I'm aware that this is the conventional wisdom, what I'm seeking is the language that backs it up. A dragon's crush attack, for instance, has no attack roll, but is called an attack.

For what it's worth, I didn't have anything particular in mind as a result of this, it's all just academic. My curiosity was aroused by someone who was playing for the first time. They're a rogue with a wand of fireball, and at the table nobody was able to prove to them conclusively that fireballs aren't attacks. I didn't think to look in the back of the PHB to see whether attack was defined (which astonished me, frankly) until after the session, and while it removes doubt about fireball, it doesn't about other things.

See Complete Arcane p85-p86
It's not in the SRD so I can't really quote it.

[Kraken]

Sneak attack is a precision strike

Pointing that out is of no use. I'm looking for the language that says gaze attacks, crush attacks, and so forth are not eligible.


See Complete Arcane p85-p86
It's not in the SRD so I can't really quote it.

Those passages seem to talk about what weaponlike spells do, and have no bearing on other spells. It certainly has no bearing on area effects that aren't spells.

[HaikenEdge]

If I recall correctly, the D&D ruleset is a permissive rule set; that is to say, the rules tell you what you can do, and if it's not mentioned, you generally can't.

[Kraken]

If I recall correctly, the D&D ruleset is a permissive rule set; that is to say, the rules tell you what you can do, and if it's not mentioned, you generally can't.

That doesn't really make sense in this context, due to how incredibly vague sneak attack is, in that any "attack" within 30' qualifies.

[nedz]

Sneak Attack

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
This talks about attacks and ranged attacks, at no point does it mention Area of Effects. Ranged attacks are quite well defined.

[Kraken]

This talks about attacks and ranged attacks, at no point does it mention Area of Effects. Ranged attacks are quite well defined.

The problem with that statement is that it assumes AoEs are never referred to as attacks, which they are in some instances. The language of sneak attack itself does not exclude area attacks, so language elsewhere is needed that says area attacks (and other things that don't use attack rolls) can never be sneak attacks. Is this called out somewhere? While attack is defined, because specific trumps general, any ability called an attack in its description would override the general definition. A dragon's crush ability is referred to as an attack within its description (MM and SRD look the same at a glance).

[TuggyNE]

A dragon's crush ability is referred to as an attack within its description (MM and SRD look the same at a glance).

That is imprecise. It is referred to as a "crush attack" (i.e., the name is "crush attack", not merely "crush") and labeled a "special attack". It is not called an "attack" all by itself, and special attacks only allow sneak attacks if the attack rolls within them do damage of some sort; thus, "Mounted Combat" does not itself do sneak attack damage, though attacks made while mounted may allow sneak attacking.

[Skevvix]

It seems pretty clear to me that it is only any attack the requires a roll to deal damage can have SA applied.


If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.



Attack
Making an attack is a standard action. ...
Melee Attacks
With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet...
Ranged Attacks
With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s maximum range and in line of sight....
Attack Rolls
An attack roll represents your attempts to strike your opponent.

Your attack roll is 1d20 + your attack bonus with the weapon you’re using. If the result is at least as high as the target’s AC, you hit and deal damage.