PHB II classes as a party.

[Particle_Man]

I have been thinking of a setting with only Bahamat and Tiamat as gods and using only the PHB II classes (knight, duskblade, beguiler and dragon shaman) as pc classes. Some prestige classes would be allowed (vassal of Bahamat springs to mind) but not many of them.

Any pitfalls I should watch out for?

[Snowbluff]

Yeah. Duskblade is way better than Knight and Dragon Shaman, and Beguiler is even better than that. :smalltongue:

[ArcanistSupreme]

Yeah. Duskblade is way better than Knight and Dragon Shaman, and Beguiler is even better than that. :smalltongue:

Quoted for truthiness.

[Urpriest]

Yeah. Duskblade is way better than Knight and Dragon Shaman, and Beguiler is even better than that. :smalltongue:

Eh, yes and no. Anyone wanting to play a "Dragon Shaman" would just be dipping one level and then going for one of the other options, after all.

[Der_DWSage]

Aside from that, there's the fact that you'd only have 'up to 50%' type healing without anyone else to help out. Unless you're allowing other spell lists to come into play, you might actually have reason to look up those rules for the heal skill.

And yeah, the fact that Beguiler is a marvelous skillmonkey and arcane class.

[Grod_The_Giant]

No healing. Not much magic item crafting. No good ranged options (I guess you could do a duskblade with Knowledge Devotion?). Imbalance (Beguiler is very good except when he's almost useless; Duskblade is incredibly good at killing things; Knight is OK at a mediocre role and Dragon Shaman isn't really good at anything;).

[Thurbane]

You'd be relying heavily on the Dragon Shaman for healing - although the Beguiler could reliably UMD Wands of Vigor beyond lower levels.

FWIW, I think Knight is one of the worst full BAB classes alongside CW Samurai and Soulborn.

[Snowbluff]

Eh, yes and no. Anyone wanting to play a "Dragon Shaman" would just be dipping one level and then going for one of the other options, after all. I would assume someone playing a Dragon Shaman in a game where they have to play a Dragon Shaman, they have more than 1 level.


No healing. Not much magic item crafting. No good ranged options (I guess you could do a duskblade with Knowledge Devotion?). Imbalance (Beguiler is very good except when he's almost useless; Duskblade is incredibly good at killing things; Knight is OK at a mediocre role and Dragon Shaman isn't really good at anything;).
No problem. Ignored in most games. Might be an issue.

The last part is true, except for Beguiler. Beguiler has a resilient spell list. People keep forgetting it doesn't only consist of [Mind Affecting]. Slow and Haste are good examples.

[Nerd-o-rama]

You'd be relying heavily on the Dragon Shaman for healing - although the Beguiler could reliably UMD Wands of Vigor beyond lower levels.

FWIW, I think Knight is one of the worst full BAB classes alongside CW Samurai and Soulborn.

It helps that it forces you into Shield+Lance+Mount, which is one of the better melee battlefield control options, but it's definitely low-op only. The main problem is that the class features have extremely arbitrary restrictions and synergize poorly.

You might keep your party Duskblade and Beguiler alive for an extra round or two if you find a battlefield that's large enough for a Large mount but small enough to blockade people, though.

[NotScaryBats]

You could throw in Miniatures Handbook for Marshal and Healer?

[chaos_redefined]

An important question to ask is... Why the PHB2 classes only? As opposed to some other small selection of classes?

[maniacalmojo]

The knight is great at what he does. Playing a group that has a knight and a duskblade (and a beguiler actually) the knight is one of the only classess that has agro as a class feature and has d12 hit points while also wearing full plate. Duskblade does not have nearly enough hit points or versatility to last on the front lines by himself, more of a dps assist which pairs really great with the knight. The beguiler does not have any abilities outside of illusion and enchantment (conjuration?) while it makes him versitile and helpful he will not exactly be outshining a group with his epicness, also fills the role in a party. The dragon shaman is great at a buffer who will make the duskblade and knight enjoy your company.

problems i see is a limited spell list, no real healing and no dedicated thief type.

[Phelix-Mu]

You could throw in Miniatures Handbook for Marshal and Healer?

I'd go with this and call it a day. Also, this ends up with the right number so that everyone has a choice. Otherwise, the last to chose is going to end up *gasp* a dragon shaman.

If you were going to go this route, I'd seriously look at homebrew tweaks/fixes for dragon shaman, and maybe for knight, too. Keeping everyone relevant at all levels is always worth the effort, in my experience.

[Nihilarian]

You could gestalt the Knight with the marshal class and use the dragonfire adept instead of the dragon shaman.

[Phelix-Mu]

You could gestalt the Knight with the marshal class and use the dragonfire adept instead of the dragon shaman.

I personally favor the opposite, actually. My personal tweak for dragon shaman involves a bunch of stuff, but namely creating a breakdown between chromatic dragon shamans and metallic dragon shamans. Chromatic ones get the Hexblades hex feature, metallic ones get the marshal's auras. There is still quite a bit wrong with the class, but I don't favor just scrapping it in favor of DFA (though I am a fan of DFA).

[Cikomyr]

Beguiler is the most awesome thing ever.


You can play as Magical James Bond, in the Service of Her Elven Majesty

[Phelix-Mu]

You can play as Magical James Bond, in the Service of Her Elven Majesty

*rubbing temples*

Wait, is that a selling point?:smalltongue:

[Cikomyr]

*rubbing temples*

Wait, is that a selling point?:smalltongue:

Actually is.

One of the coolest concept character I ever had. How can you justify a Lawful Good beguiler?

I was more elegant than James Bond, actually. But still.

[Phelix-Mu]

Actually is.

One of the coolest concept character I ever had. How can you justify a Lawful Good beguiler?

I was more elegant than James Bond, actually. But still.

Wait, I must know. Which Bond were you picturing with this concept?

[Cikomyr]

Wait, I must know. Which Bond were you picturing with this concept?

Probably a mix of Lazenby and Dalton

Not a natural seducer, but man was I a master of disguise. I impersonated a lord's teenage daughter, and I actually specced my character to justify quickly reading someone's demeanor, tone of voice and choice of vocabulary.

That, and stealth casting of "Detect Tought" would allow me to Cold Read anyone I was trying to bluff. People asking "What's the password?" would obviously think of the password.

[Grayson01]

I like the idea DS is one of my favorite classes to play so that wouldn't be a problem for me. But I agree adding in the Mintures handbook would only help or add in the Complete Adventure classes. It will have to be a low-op game for the most part but it could be a fun time. Let me know how it turns out.

[Big Fau]

The last part is true, except for Beguiler. Beguiler has a resilient spell list. People keep forgetting it doesn't only consist of [Mind Affecting]. Slow and Haste are good examples.

And Legion of Sentinels. Hard to beat the best Fireball variant ever.

[Urpriest]

I would assume someone playing a Dragon Shaman in a game where they have to play a Dragon Shaman, they have more than 1 level.


Eh, Dragon Shaman 1/Knight X or Dragon Shaman 1/Duskblade X makes a fine Dragon Shaman.

[Particle_Man]

I was thinking of removing spells from monsters to help keep the game more low op. That way, for example, the knight might have more of a chance when fighting a spell-less dragon.

There would be less variety in magic items as some spells simply would not exist in this game world (I might just go with commoners, aristrocrats, experts and warriors for the npc classes), and thus some items would not be craftable.

I guess I want a chance for "lesser" classes to shine, and while beguiler is powerful, the stuff he does usually doesn't so much crowd out the others' schticks as either enhance them or operate ooc.

I guess I am thinking loosely of a sorta King Arthurish campaign, except that Arthur is Bahamut. The knights are the main servants, duskblades are the "pagan knight" variant, dragon shamans are the priests of Bahamut (or the evil priests of Tiamat for NPC bad guys) and the beguiler would be the Merlin.

I might also limit multi-classing to one class and one prestige class. Not sure on that yet.

[DarkSonic1337]

Any chance of substituting Dragonfire Adept in for the Dragon Shaman?

[Thurbane]

You know, I played a (copper) Dragon Shaman through Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, and I don't think it is as bad as many people say it is - admittedly, this was in a mid-low op group.

3.5 Dragon Shaman Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214007) has some great tips for getting the most out of the class.

[Gwendol]

Sounds like a fun game! Will you run it here on GitP?

[Particle_Man]

Sounds like a fun game! Will you run it here on GitP?

I've never tried running a game online, to be honest. I played in one but it kinda died out.

[mikeejimbo]

Can the party just all be beguilers?

[Urpriest]

Can the party just all be beguilers?

Depends if they can use Shining South.

[Drachasor]

Eh, Dragon Shaman 1/Knight X or Dragon Shaman 1/Duskblade X makes a fine Dragon Shaman.

I don't really think that's a Dragon Shaman anymore. It's just a dip.