[PF] Gift of Life + Breath of Life?

[Frosty]

The Resurrection subdomain power Gift of Life (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/healing-domain/resurrection) allows you to revive temporarily a target who has been dead for less than a minute. At the end of the duration (assuming the target didn't take enough damage to die again on its own), it dies.

The question is...how many HP is it at when it dies the second time? It matters because I want to cast Breath of Life (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/breath-of-life) on the target the round it dies the second time, and in order for the spell to make any sense, we need an HP total.

Normally I'd just cast Breath of Life on the target and be done with it, but sometimes you can't get to the target with one Move action, so you gotta use GoL and make sure you're standing next to the target when it dies again so you can immediately cast BoL.

[grarrrg]

Hmm...I see 3 ways to argue this:

The same (negative) amount it had before Gift of Life.

Just enough to qualify as dead (i.e. assuming a CON score of 10, it would have -11 HP).

The last (least favorable) option is that Gift of Life counts as a "Death Effect" which prevents Breath of Life from working.

[Frosty]

Hmm...I see 3 ways to argue this:

The same (negative) amount it had before Gift of Life.

Just enough to qualify as dead (i.e. assuming a CON score of 10, it would have -11 HP).

The last (least favorable) option is that Gift of Life counts as a "Death Effect" which prevents Breath of Life from working.Yeah, there are many ways to look at this, although I have not considered the last option. The rules are unclear, which is why I'm asking for opinions.

[Eldest]

I would say it would be the HP total from before you cast Gift of Life.
And Gift of Life is not a death effect, otherwise it would say so, so it's not blocking Breath of Life. The only logic that would imply that also implies that something like disintegrate is a death effect, which it is not.

[Drachasor]

Technically, by RAW Breath of Life does not work. Once you are dead you do not have a negative hit point total. You in fact have no hit points at all. Your corpse has hit points and this is a positive number as it is an object -- anything else means you can't destroy corpses.

I'd houserule the spell to bring someone back to life assuming the current hit points are either 0 or -Con Score. I'd lean towards 0 (it's a 5th level spell and you only have ONE action in which to use it).

[Spore]

The last (least favorable) option is that Gift of Life counts as a "Death Effect" which prevents Breath of Life from working.

Unlikely. Why? It's a healing domain ability it says "dies again" not "is killed".


I would say it would be the HP total from before you cast Gift of Life.

I agree. No amount of HP is given in the description and a severely mutilated body wouldn't spontaneously heal from a pimped up "Speak with dead".

I would allow breath of life to affect the target. After all you play a Ressurection domain cleric to fix those kinds of things. I feel this ability to be used as an improved Speak with Dead would not fit the RAI and flavor of this domain.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Presuming the Gift of Life wore off as opposed to being critically hit by a scythe or something, I'd rule that he's at negative his con score, the power did after all revive him so there's no reason he should return to negative whatever his hit points were before he died the first time.

But strictly speaking by RAW I think he'd be at whatever hit point total he was when he died the second time.

Technically, by RAW Breath of Life does not work. Once you are dead you do not have a negative hit point total. You in fact have no hit points at all
Nothing in the rules states you no longer have negative hit points after you've died your just no longer subject to normal cure spells. So by RAW the spell works perfectly fine because your logical assumption that when you die you no longer have hit points isn't an actual rule.

[Frosty]

Unlikely. Why? It's a healing domain ability it says "dies again" not "is killed".



I agree. No amount of HP is given in the description and a severely mutilated body wouldn't spontaneously heal from a pimped up "Speak with dead".

I would allow breath of life to affect the target. After all you play a Ressurection domain cleric to fix those kinds of things. I feel this ability to be used as an improved Speak with Dead would not fit the RAI and flavor of this domain.
Yeah, and the Res domain is pretty ****ty as it is. I mean, the other subdomain is SOOO much better on most fronts. You get to remove conditions by trading away your worthless 1st level power, and you have better domain spells.

[Drachasor]

Works because nothing in the rules states you no longer have negative hit points after you've died your just no longer subject to normal cure spells being dead and all.

Hmm, they did seem to remove the statement that dead people are objects. So I guess you really can't destroy a corpse in PF very easily. You just take it to lower and lower negative hit points. Weird.

[Spore]

Hmm, they did seem to remove the statement that dead people are objects. So I guess you really can't destroy a corpse in PF very easily. You just take it to lower and lower negative hit points. Weird.

By RAW the corpse then could make Fort saves for all the items it is wearing. So if you wanted to Disintegrate a held artifact you have to take it first (as the corpse is just a very very unconscious creature and thus helpless: failing reflex and will saves automatically but not fort saves). Or does the status "dead" overwrite the status "unconscious"?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Hmm, they did seem to remove the statement that dead people are objects. So I guess you really can't destroy a corpse in PF very easily. You just take it to lower and lower negative hit points. Weird.
Even if they are objects that doesn't mean they no longer have negative hit points. Just because your dead and your body has become an object doesn't mean you don't still have a hit point total separate from your object-body that remains negative.

[Malcador]

Gift of Life just says that the creature dies. How does one become dead? From the dead condition in the Pathfinder SRD:

The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect.

The death from Gift of Life fits the third possibility. Gift of Life doesn't say that it changes the creature's hit points. Therefore, I would say that, for the purposes of Breath of Life, the creature has the same number of hit points after dying from the end of Gift of Life as it had before it died - typically, half your cleric level, minus any damage it has taken since it was resurrected by Gift of Life.

This might result in a creature that is dead but has positive hit points. This is okay, because losing hit points is just one of the ways in which a creature can die.

Now, the other difficulty: Is Gift of Life a death effect? I can't find an actual definition for "death effect" anywhere. However, Gift of Life is not a spell with the death descriptor, it's not a death attack, and it doesn't say "This is a death effect." So I'd say that it's not a death effect.

So when you cast Breath of Life on a creature that died from Gift of Life, that creature is healed and resurrected.

This relies on a fairly literal reading of the rules, and even I would rather that it didn't work this way. In terms of what "should" happen, I prefer grarrrg's second option.
Even further into "should" territory, I might define a death effect as "an effect that causes death other than by reducing a creature's hit points below -1 times its Constitution score, or by reducing its Constitution score to 0." By that definition, the death from Gift of Life is a death effect, so it stops Breath of Life from working.

[Drachasor]

Even if they are objects that doesn't mean they no longer have negative hit points. Just because your dead and your body has become an object doesn't mean you don't still have a hit point total separate from your object-body that remains negative.

That's an incoherent concept. Your body is made of molecules that were other people. Are you saying you're carrying around their negative hit point totals with you all the time? And if you get cut into two pieces or your body otherwise destroyed how does that affect your negative total? Do you choose what part to do damage to when you attack? How? Where are the rules for that?

Further, a creature is almost never an object. By default they are defined to be different things (intelligent magical items are an exception and explicitly stated). So the body is either a creature or an object, not both.

If it's a creature, then it can't be destroyed normally. Breath of Life would then work.

So are you saying the negative hit points are attached to the soul or move around with it or something? That way the body could get destroyed? Ahh, but that won't work since it leave the body as an object. BoL targets a creature.

And trying to keep it as both just makes everything fall apart when you actually try to work through the implications.

[Spore]

That's an incoherent concept. Your body is made of molecules that were other people.

Yes, please bring particle physics into D&D. Science and D&D has always worked out so great in explaining magic.

[Drachasor]

Yes, please bring particle physics into D&D. Science and D&D has always worked out so great in explaining magic.

Do you prefer the example of a Flesh Golem or any number of undead creatures? Heck, undead creatures themselves would have 3 sets of hit points (object, undead, and whatever it was when alive).

The rules don't indicate any of this, and in fact indicate something is either an object or a creature, not both. Intelligent Magical items are a rather explicit exception.

And you skipped over the more critical points I was making. Actually applying the duality idea to the game leads to confusion and problems because the rules don't cover that sort of thing.

Edit: And the fact is most characters do eat other creatures. At what point under the duality theory do what they eat cease to also be creatures? And do they keep taking damage while being digested?

I am honest when I say that I don't think Breath of Life works by RAW. It is clear what it is intended to do, but the rules don't really work that way. And I don't think you can really make them work that way without a house rule either for what being "dead" means or to BoL. I think doing it to BoL makes the most sense.

[Frosty]

So, what house rules would you use?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Actually applying the duality idea to the game leads to confusion and problems because the rules don't cover that sort of thing.

What problems? what confusion? all other forms of resurrection specify exactly how many hit points the restored character gets. If your brought to negative one hundred and fifty resurrection still restores you to full health and vigor. Raise dead restores you to one hp per hit die.(but most would assume that at negative one hundred and fifty you are no longer a mostly intact corpse)


And if you get cut into two pieces or your body otherwise destroyed how does that affect your negative total? Do you choose what part to do damage to when you attack? How? Where are the rules for that?
If your hit for thirty-five damage when you have ten hit points your at negative twenty-five.[and likely dead unless your con is very high] Why shouldn't another thirty-five damage to your corpse bring you to negative sixty? Nothing says the dead can't take further damage.

3.5 actually lacked key rules for attacking inanimate bodies. How many hit points does a corpse have? does it make a difference how many racial HD it had in life? At what point is the body no longer considered a corpse for the purposes of raise dead? How much damage does it take to sever a limb? None of those complication can even happen without house rules because how much punishment a corpse can take before its torn apart or destroyed was never written up.

The only issue with duality is it allows Breath of Life to function. Because that is the ONLY situation where keeping track your negative hit points after you've died is going to matter.

You don't need house rules to make Breath of Life function its intention is quite clear. You need house rules for how much damage a corpse can take before it can no longer be considered a corpse or how much damage it takes to sever a limb because that is never listed.

[TuggyNE]

Technically, by RAW Breath of Life does not work. Once you are dead you do not have a negative hit point total. You in fact have no hit points at all.

No. "In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score." That's under death attacks in special abilities.

[Fax Celestis]

FYI, for anyone wondering what a death effect is, its anything that states it's a death effect or has the death descriptor (like finger of death (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/finger-of-death))

[Lord Vukodlak]

No. "In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score." That's under death attacks in special abilities.

Oh wow there is an actual rule that covers this! I suppose that's

—thread.

[Frosty]

Equal to or LESS than, right. So the question is HOW much less than by RAW.

If, during the Gift of Life duration, the target was dropped to -1000 or something, then at the end of Gift of Life, should it still be at what hp it was at originally before Gift of Life?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Equal to or LESS than, right. So the question is HOW much less than by RAW.

If, during the Gift of Life duration, the target was dropped to -1000 or something, then at the end of Gift of Life, should it still be at what hp it was at originally before Gift of Life?

No where in gift of life does it say your hit points revert to there previous state before the power was used. So they'd have whatever hit point totals they had when they died the second time or negative their con whichever is lower.