[PF] Echoing Spell Channel the Gift: Legal?

[papr_weezl8472]

The Pathfinder spell Channel the Gift (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/channel-the-gift) is probably, all by its lonesome, too broken and poorly worded a spell to be a good idea to introduce into a game. It comes from a 2008 supplement (so its legality is debatable in a strict PF-only game) written by none other than SKR.

Well, let's say this spell has been allowed for our use, whatever that may be. We first note its rather iffy wording: it allows the target to cast a single spell of third level or lower without expending a spell slot. Huh, so what about metamagic? We all know metamagic feats (with the exceptions of Heighten and Sanctum Spell) don't actually change a spell's level, so we should be able to apply any metamagic feats we want to our chosen third level (or lower) spell without cost. This alone makes Channel the Gift horribly, horribly broken.

But wait! Speaking of metamagic feats, Pathfinder has a one called Echoing Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/echoing-spell-metamagic). For a +3 slot adjustment, you retain an additional casting of your spell for later use. Normally an iffy tradeoff, because three levels higher usually means more than twice the utility. But now we're getting it for free. So, nifty.

So, how do these interact? Let's say we've got, oh, a level 6 sorcerer with Echoing Spell and Channel the Gift. She casts Channel the Gift on herself to make her next level 3 or under spell not expend a spell slot. She spends her next full round casting an echoing Channel the Gift, making her next spell of level 3rd or under not cast a slot, and giving her a floating daily casting of Channel the Gift. She then spends her next full round casting another echoing Channel the Gift, and so on, and so on...

(Echoing Spell states that "No effect that allows you to reprepare or recast a spell can affect the echoed spell." But we're not repreparing or recasting the echoed spell; we're only affecting the first casting of the spell rather than the echo, and we're not repreparing it or recasting it anyway.)

Maybe our hypothetical sorcerer adventures with a wizard. That stodgy wizard spends a full hour in the morning preparing his spells, so our sorceress decided she may as well do something productive during that hour: she chain-casts Echoing Channel the Gift for the full period. She's now got about 600 floating uses, each of which is a free third level spell slot. For the cost of one feat, one spell known, and an hour prep per day.

It can, of course, get worse. Let's say our sorceress is a half-elf, with good ol' Paragon Surge and maybe Quicken Spell to boot. She now spends thirty minutes casting Echoing Channel the Gift and Quickened Echoing Channel the Gift, then spends the next half hour using her non-quickened Echoing CtGs to power Quickened Echoing Paragon Surges, and maybe some quickened CtGs to power some non-quickened Paragon Surges.

So we've now got a level 6 sorcerer sitting on literally hundreds of swift-action Paragon Surges and Channel the Gifts. With a round of prep time (a quickened Paragon Surge and a full-action Channel the Gift, or vice versa), she can cast any third level or lower sorcerer/wizard spell in existence, and she can do this pretty much as often per day as she wants.

This is obviously horribly, horribly broken. My questions are: is it broken in any new or interesting fashion? Is it even RAW-legal, or have I perhaps misread something? Is Channel the Gift just not considered a valid spell choice? Or is this possibly in the Pun-Pun range of TO, well known to be possible but ignored in discussion because it goes too far?

[Nibbens]

After reading it, and re-reading it and re-re-reading it - my head hurts trying to math this out. lol.
It looks legal but the DM in me just wants to say "ha-ha-no." lol.
Sorry, i'm no help. :/

[TuggyNE]

This is obviously horribly, horribly broken. My questions are: is it broken in any new or interesting fashion? Is it even RAW-legal, or have I perhaps misread something? Is Channel the Gift just not considered a valid spell choice? Or is this possibly in the Pun-Pun range of TO, well known to be possible but ignored in discussion because it goes too far?

I'm not sure if there's any RAW problem with it, but it seems legit. (In both sense of the phrase. :smallamused:) It's certainly TO; it's not really Pun-Pun level, but it's not suitable for any actual game because it's an infinite loop, even if "all" it does it give NI 3rd-level spells/day.

[deuxhero]

I noticed the metamagic thing a while ago, but couldn't figure out how to really abuse it. Didn't even think about echoing spell. Nice...

[Fax Celestis]

Don't know if it works: if it reads "the next x you cast", then they don't queue. They would simultaneously trigger, rendering the same next spell that fulfills the requirements free to cast.

[Drachasor]

Pathfinder taught me that the whole "metamagic spells aren't spells of the slot they use" is a horrible idea. It just leads to confusion and messiness. 3.5 or PF should have gotten rid of Heighten and just said a spell's level is the same as whatever slot it uses -- metamagic would increase spell level and DCs accordingly, and so would preparing something in a higher level slot.

PF has FAQratta on this (yes, they love to not issue errata and just have a FAQ that changes the rules). They said whatever slot (adjusted or non-adjusted) is worse for whatever you are doing is the one you use.

[Roog]

Doesn't that FAQratta (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r9w) mean that Heighten does not raise the spell DC, as using the actual spell level to set the DC would be more of a disadvantage?

[Drachasor]

Doesn't that FAQratta (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r9w) mean that Heighten does not raise the spell DC, as using the actual spell level to set the DC would be more of a disadvantage?

They do explicitly mention heighten. But stuff like this is why I think the current system is a mess and overly confusing. Also paizo sucks at how they handle rule issues.

[Roog]

They do explicitly mention heighten. But stuff like this is why I think the current system is a mess and overly confusing. Also paizo sucks at how they handle rule issues.

They single out heighten and say "Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage."

But as they say "use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster."

If you count using a higher-level spell-slot as an advantage, then by that rule, you can't do it. So you can't use heighten cast or prepare a spell in a higher-level slot.

[Segev]

I'm not too familiar with Echoing Spell, but I will say that it sounds like it'd be great to stack on to the Chaingun Wizard for some of his higher level spell slots.

(The Chaingun Wizard is the guy who took Arcane Thesis for Launch Bolt, then proceeds to prepare Chain Reach Launch Bolts in his third+ level spell slots, adding Split Ray or Quicken or the like to make the higher-level spell slots "pay" with it. Adding Echoing Spell is a not-bad 5th level spell slot use for it, as it's now two castings of Chain Reach Launch Bolt!)

[NamelessNPC]

the spell specifically states that it doesnt work on yourself if you are a spontaneous caster

[Segev]

the spell specifically states that it doesnt work on yourself if you are a spontaneous caster

That just means you need two sorcerers trading them back and forth for an hour, then.

[papr_weezl8472]

Don't know if it works: if it reads "the next x you cast", then they don't queue. They would simultaneously trigger, rendering the same next spell that fulfills the requirements free to cast.

Echoing Spell creates an 'echo' of the metamagicked spell that can be cast later in the day without expending a spell slot or prepared spell, rather than casting the spell twice at once or almost-at-once, the way 3.5's Twin Spell and Repeat Spell do. The primary, non-echoed copies are chained, letting the echoes accumulate to be cast without cost later in the day.


the spell specifically states that it doesnt work on yourself if you are a spontaneous caster

...Huh. Now, I'd thought this wasn't relevant, because it applies to the spell's second function (spontaneously casting a prepared spell without expending it), and the first part of the spell works just fine on the caster. But then I noticed this in the first aspect of the spell:
They must start casting this spell before your next turn...
You can still manage unlimited castings of Channel the Gift, if you've got Quicken Spell, but they don't accumulate:
Turn 1: CtG, Quickened Echoing CtG
Turn 2: Cast the echo Quickened CtG, cast Echoing CtG
Turn 3: Cast the echo CtG, cast echoing Quickened CtG [...]
If you've got another spellcaster with Channel the Gift to bounce off of, or if you're a wizard, it'll still work.

Edit: Drat, that FAQErrata. That means you'd need to be able to mitigate three levels of metamagic adjustment to work the trick and be a prepared caster/have a friend to bounce off of. The only [PF] way I know to mitigate the full three level slot adjustment would be Spell Perfection, which doesn't come online until 15th level, at which point unlimited 3rd-level spells are less of a deal.