Help with Warblade/Swordsage Spear and Shield (3.5)

[albeaver89]

So I am going to be DMing and one of my players wants to play a spear and shield type dude. He is new to 3.5 but has played 2nd and 4th. I told him to look into Tomb of Battle: Book of Nine Swords because the warblade/swordsage are really good martial classes. I am not all too familiar with them, I know the basic mechanics and what-not. I was hoping if someone could help me point him in the right direction with Stances and Maneuvers for Spear and Shield.

Thanks in advanced!

(oh yeah it's not a high-op game starting at level 1. He is thinking of being an Elf for theme reasons [why an Elf I dunno, I don't like Elves]) If you need more info. just ask! :)

[Defiled Cross]

I'm not too familiar with the aforementioned, unfortunately.

The embedded link..

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a

..may help, though.

Good luck!

[Vhaidara]

What kind of spear and shield is he going for? The only major spear/shield warrior I can think of historically would be Spartans and their contemporaries.

Also, he has to use a shortspear, since both normal and longspear are 2 handed weapons. However, since the spears are generally some of the worst weapons in the game, you may want to cut him a break and let him use a spear one handed (it's a 2-handed weapon that's worse than a longsword).

Spear goes with the Desert Wind maneuver set, but that is probably the most magical discipline, and it has a mobility focus that doesn't mesh with a shield in my mind (mechanically your fine, the imagery is just clashing to me).

Shortspear works with Diamond Mind, which is a very tactical discipline. It has a lot of Counters, and a large focus on Concentration checks enabling you to do things you normally couldn't. I'd equate it to the classic Samurai approach: Absolutely deadly focus and calm. again, I don't particularly see
this as someone who uses a shield, but that's my opinion and how I view the discipline.

[albeaver89]

I think he is going for the Achilles type warrior (from the movie Troy with Brad Pitt). Throwing spears and jumping around with spear and shield.

Thanks for the advice :)

Edit: Do you think that SwordSage vs Warblade would matter all that much? If so what would you pick?

[lunar2]

What kind of spear and shield is he going for? The only major spear/shield warrior I can think of historically would be Spartans and their contemporaries.

Also, he has to use a shortspear, since both normal and longspear are 2 handed weapons. However, since the spears are generally some of the worst weapons in the game, you may want to cut him a break and let him use a spear one handed (it's a 2-handed weapon that's worse than a longsword).

Spear goes with the Desert Wind maneuver set, but that is probably the most magical discipline, and it has a mobility focus that doesn't mesh with a shield in my mind (mechanically your fine, the imagery is just clashing to me).

Shortspear works with Diamond Mind, which is a very tactical discipline. It has a lot of Counters, and a large focus on Concentration checks enabling you to do things you normally couldn't. I'd equate it to the classic Samurai approach: Absolutely deadly focus and calm. again, I don't particularly see
this as someone who uses a shield, but that's my opinion and how I view the discipline.

actually a spear is better than a longsword. same damage, x3 crit (which, unmodified, averages the same extra damage as a 19-20 crit, except when damage reduction comes into play, when it is better), and can be thrown w/ a 20 ft. range increment (which isn't great, but it's better than a longsword's no throwing at all), and can be set against a charge for double damage (situational, but useful).

now, i don't know about achilles, but diamond mind/ white raven would probably be good for a spartan style character.

[Vhaidara]

Well, I feel like that would be best covered by a Warblade focusing on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart, then going into Bloodstorm Blade (Iron Heart throwing focused PrC)

[Adverb]

It sounds like this guy wants Warblade flavor more than he wants Swordsage flavor. Warblades also have less to keep track of once they're built, which might be nice.

Agreed with other posters that spears are fairly weak weapons in 3.5 (if nothing else, piercing is usually the worst damage type), but if I were DMing for such a player I would probably be happy to houserule a "bastard spear" or something.

[Eldaran]

What kind of spear and shield is he going for? The only major spear/shield warrior I can think of historically would be Spartans and their contemporaries.

Uh what? I'm no expert on weaponry, but the spear is historically the most commonly used weapon of all time. And shields in combat are the best form of defense, definitely superior to many forms of armor.

[Sam K]

Uh what? I'm no expert on weaponry, but the spear is historically the most commonly used weapon of all time. And shields in combat are the best form of defense, definitely superior to many forms of armor.

Irl yes. In d&d not so much :)

Warblade (medium armor, most martial tob class). Iron heart and tiger claw disciplines. Tigers claw is usually dual wield focused, but has the leaping attacks going for it and you dont have to use two weapons with it.

Bloodstorm blade prc for throwing.

[Vhaidara]

Uh what? I'm no expert on weaponry, but the spear is historically the most commonly used weapon of all time. And shields in combat are the best form of defense, definitely superior to many forms of armor.

Yes, historically spears and shields are common, but most iconic warriors are sword and shield, or sword, or axe, or bow. Maybe a spear as a backup weapon, but not nearly as much as a primary.

I disagree with the Tiger Claw recommendation. Tiger Claw is probably the most savage discipline, focusing on TWF and very close range combat (claws and unarmed strikes are on their weapon list). A spear meshes better with Diamond Mind, and anything works with Iron Heart :P

[Feint's End]

Yes, historically spears and shields are common, but most iconic warriors are sword and shield, or sword, or axe, or bow. Maybe a spear as a backup weapon, but not nearly as much as a primary.

I disagree with the Tiger Claw recommendation. Tiger Claw is probably the most savage discipline, focusing on TWF and very close range combat (claws and unarmed strikes are on their weapon list). A spear meshes better with Diamond Mind, and anything works with Iron Heart :P

You are correct about sword and axe being the most iconic weapons. The reason is simple. Spears are no weapons for 1on1 fighting or a good weapon for a solo fighter against many. Spears work best when used as a group to use the superior reach against a bigger group of enemies. Spears are inferior to swords when it comes to 1on1 or 1vsmany scenarios. Even Spartans used it as a group and switched to sword when confronted with an enemy they couldn't fight in phalanx.

I think tiger claw has some sweet maneuvers for the style he wants and I'd suggest using them ... you can always focus on the more pouncey aspect of the Tiger instead of the savage one and making it reality through the right maneuvers (like jumping attacks and sudden leap for example).

[MargaretDeloach]

Hay you can embed, But i don't want to get embed, but i want to make my original...

[HammeredWharf]

I think he is going for the Achilles type warrior (from the movie Troy with Brad Pitt). Throwing spears and jumping around with spear and shield.

Thanks for the advice :)

Edit: Do you think that SwordSage vs Warblade would matter all that much? If so what would you pick?

I'd pick a Warblade/Crusader/Eternal Blade:

1) Swordsage is a magical/stealthy class. It doesn't fit.
2) Warblade takes care of the "jumping around with a spear" part.
3) Too bad Warblade doesn't have access to Devoted Spirit, which is the defensive shield discipline.
4) Crusader does!
5) ToB classes multiclass quite well. Basically, when determining your Initiator Level, you can add half of your other levels to the level of your Initiator class. For example, a Warblade 4/Crusader 2 would have a Warblade Initiator level of 5 (4 from Warblade levels + 1/2 of the two Crusader levels) and a Crusader Initiator level of 4 (2 from Crusader levels and 1/2 of the four Warblade levels)
6) Eternal Blade is a solid PRC that has access to both Devoted Spirit and some of Warblade's in-your-face disciplines, but it requires 10 BAB, so you can only get in later on.

[Gwendol]

I second the warblade/crusader combo. Also, you can refluff the trident to be a hoplite spear; just use the statistics straight off.

[genericwit]

Spear and Shield would be better if you can get the Shield and Pike Style Feat from Dragon Magazine (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Shield_and_Pike_Style someone just brought it up a while ago)--then you can use a polearm with reach (like a longspear, guisarme, etc) two handed. Then go Crusader for lots of good Phalanx/group style fighting (White Raven gives you lots of good boosts to your allies and charge abilities, Devoted Spirit is kind of the same--defensive abilities, shield abilities). Pick up Thicket of Blades, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Knockdown, Hold the Line and defend your friends, wreck your enemies' (melee, anyway) day!

[Vaz]

At low levels, while magic items are still a rarity, you can cope as a Spear and Shield, but when you start advancing, you might want to consider uberchager flying builds with an animated shield.

There are two races which recieve "Dive" attack bonuses with piercing weapons; Raptorans, and Dragonborn. Basically, provided you make a charge while flying and are 10ft higher than the target, you gain a multiplier to attack.

Monk 2 (Decisive Strike, Invisible Fist, Overwhelming Attack)/Fighter 9 (Zhentarim Fighter, Dungeoncrasher Fighter) is a decent base, with Serpent Strike feat. Not optimal, but then again, you're playing a Spear and Shield fighter.

Alternatively, a Sohei from Oriental Adventures is capable.

At later levels; Wu Jen 10/Incantatrix 3/Warblade 7 can get Giant Size and Divine Power (and then persist it), and use Body Outside Body to clone themselves, giving you more tricks to do with it, as well as an Initiator level of 13 for 7th level maneuvres.

[OverdrivePrime]

Thirding Warblade/Crusader. Iron Heart (SURGE!) like woah, plenty of Diamond Mind, Some Devoted Spirit, sprinkle a little Tiger Claw for some sick mobility (the jump up and stab giants in the face maneuvers are delightful) or White Raven if he's going for a Leonidas/Battle Leader schtick.

You can help this by, as the others have said, allowing a martial spear that can be one-handed (because seriously, spears.), or just adding a homebrew feat that enables the style. Hoplite Spear Fighting. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?191277-New-Feat-Hoplite-Spear-Fighting)

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bad Mofo Spear) would probably suffice as well.

[VoxRationis]

Isn't the spear a two-handed weapon? How are you getting to use a shield with that from level 1?

Also, on an unrelated note, is "Tomb of Battle" a common nickname or something?

[OverdrivePrime]

Isn't the spear a two-handed weapon? How are you getting to use a shield with that from level 1?

And that's the problem. In real life, a spear is not exclusively a two handed weapon. A number of fighting styles incorporate spear and shield use. Spears of up to 6 feet in length were commonly used with a shield in antiquity.

You could just give the guy a shortspear and call it a day, but as mentioned earlier, the shortspear's lower damage and, more importantly, lower crit range make it an inferior choice to other one-handed weapons.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think a tower shield / short spear combo ALA Zulu warriors would be cool. Go for diamond mind strikes and save replacement stuff, with a backup of iron heart and stone dragon for dealing with multiple targets and high DR respectively. Get a vest of steady spellcasting. It makes those "replace damage with cocentration check x X" strikes really horridly overpowered.

Go with a shortspear and upgrade to a longspear once you can afford an animated shield.

Enchant it with flying as well, and you can switch between 1 and 2 handed combat while wielding it (loosing it to fight as an animated object once you want to fight 2 handed), and use it to carry you with it's 30ft fly speed. Make it Riverine and it is an unkillable combat flanking buddy.

[VoxRationis]

And that's the problem. In real life, a spear is not exclusively a two handed weapon. A number of fighting styles incorporate spear and shield use. Spears of up to 6 feet in length were commonly used with a shield in antiquity.

You could just give the guy a shortspear and call it a day, but as mentioned earlier, the shortspear's lower damage and, more importantly, lower crit range make it an inferior choice to other one-handed weapons.

Actually, spears used with shields went into double-digit lengths (the Macedonian sarissa springs to mind). I was going from a rules standpoint.

[Azoth]

If you are okay allowing him a feat from Dragon Magazine he can use a light shield and long spear. The feat is Shield and Pike style. It allows him to use any two handed polearm with reach that does piercing damage and a light shield at the same time. He keeps the shields AC bonus and suffers no attack penalty. The only prereq for the feat is proficiency in the weapon and shield you use so he can take it at level 1.

This lets him still function in some regards as a lockdown build, just not the greatest of one.

[OverdrivePrime]

If you are okay allowing him a feat from Dragon Magazine he can use a light shield and long spear. The feat is Shield and Pike style. It allows him to use any two handed polearm with reach that does piercing damage and a light shield at the same time. He keeps the shields AC bonus and suffers no attack penalty. The only prereq for the feat is proficiency in the weapon and shield you use so he can take it at level 1.

This lets him still function in some regards as a lockdown build, just not the greatest of one.
Nice! And I think that still works well with Short Half (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/short-haft--2616/). Short Haft works great with a warblade, thanks to the warblade's ability to change out what their weapon focus is in, thanks to the Warblade's weapon aptitude ability.

So you could go Human Warblade and pick up Shield & Pike, Weapon Focus: Longspear, and Short Haft by level 3. Then pick up Power Attack at level five, when you're probably also getting your first Crusader level.

Once you get those essentials, it's up to you if you want to focus on shield-bashing, attacks of opportunity, or something else.

[Fouredged Sword]

You have full martial melee weapon prof. The lance is a longspear+. Also, note, having armor spikes means not having to take weapon focus or short haft, and not losing your reach when attacking up close.

Then, once you buy an animated heavy shield you can psy reform away shield and pike.

[OverdrivePrime]

You have full martial melee weapon prof. The lance is a longspear+. Also, note, having armor spikes means not having to take weapon focus or short haft, and not losing your reach when attacking up close.

Then, once you buy an animated heavy shield you can psy reform away shield and pike.

Very true. But this one sounds like it's more about emulating a style than effectiveness.

As a DM and player I firmly believe that melee needs nice things, but I have so much trouble not throwing up a little in my mouth when I imagine some bad mofo Spartan warblade laying waste to the battlefield, with a shield floating around in front of him like some sort of obnoxious flying Pokemon.

[Theomniadept]

If he wants to use a spear one-handed its fine, but make sure that spear is actually a Ranseur of Glaive or Guisarme or if he's a dwarf trade that useless Urgrosh proficiency for a Warpike.

At level 1 spear + shield is crap. Don't bother with a shield. Yes, I know, spartans and their ilk but this is 3.5 and shield based stuff just sucks overall for no reason other than the creators didn't understand AC =/= damage.

Once he can afford an animated shield then it's all gravy because he can have a shield and a two-handed weapon and proceed to be awesome.

[Azoth]

I can see thing being great fun with Leap Attack+Leap of the Heavens+Battle jumper. Turn him into a bit of a Dragoon.

Maybe something like...

Snow Elf (+2Dex -2Cha)
32PB after racial mods: Str:14 Dex:14 Con:14 Int:14 Wis:13 Cha:11

Barbarian1(pounce+rage variant of your choice)/fighter1/Warblade1 to start up.

Flaw: Shield and Pike Style
Flaw: Battle Jumper
1: Hidden Talent (dimension hop)
Ftr: Power Attack
3: Up The Walls

Skills: Max out Jump/Tumble/Concentration (still leaves 12 points unspent)

Descent start up. He runs around stabbing people with his spear. Dimension hop gives him a 2/day 10ft teleport as a swift action. Wis 13 needed for Up the Walls which lets him play Prince of Persia with the environment and helps him set up for Battle Jumper triggering Pounce.