Blinding Spittle spell

[Asteron]

One of my players is a druid and is fond of the spell Blinding Spittle (Spell Compendium). Looking at this spell, it just feels wrong for it to be a touch attack rather than a reflex save. I get that the caster is trying to hit the target, but if someone spits at my face, I'm going to try to avoid it. If it doesn't hit my eyes, why would I be blinded? I get that the -4 penalty is for trying hit a small area and the touch attack sort of covers some one dodging it, but what if they shield their eyes? It still technically touches them, but not in the eyes.

Would it be a huge deal for me to change it from a Touch attack to Reflex: negates?

[Snowbluff]

but what if they shield their eyes? It still technically touches them, but not in the eyes.


Dex to AC accounts for stuff like this.

Either way, it will still wreck everyone it wrecks normally.

[Asteron]

Dex to AC accounts for stuff like this.

Either way, it will still wreck everyone it wrecks normally.

That's true, and I covered that in my first post... It's mostly about the flavor to me. It seems to make more sense as a reflex save.

It's not a terrible nerf to the spell this way, is it? That's what I am trying to avoid.

[nedz]

Blinding Spittle is often regarded as a tad broken. Blindness no save for a ranged touch attack is very powerful. Limiting the Blindness to a 1 round duration would be more in line with the expectations of a level 1 spell.

[Venger]

Blinding Spittle is often regarded as a tad broken. Blindness no save for a ranged touch attack is very powerful. Limiting the Blindness to a 1 round duration would be more in line with the expectations of a level 1 spell.

blinding spittle is a level 2 spell, which is where some of the more popular no save effects come online (glitterdust, web, etc)

its duration is also pretty much up to the enemy, since you can just unblind yourself with a standard action, and not permanent like another 2nd lvl spell, blindness/deafness

[Defiled Cross]

Leave as is.

[limejuicepowder]

Funny how these things work out...I was just thinking about this spell while driving to work, and thinking what a kick in the nuts it is to mundanes.

Know where this "spell" first appeared? Complete Warrior. It's an ability Eye of Groomsh' get at level 2 or 3. Except their version gives a ref save, on top of needing to make a touch attack (at -4, as the spell).

Yup, even when mundanes get an ability that isn't "+X to Y," casters get a strictly better version of it that's available at lower levels.

So to address your question, I would change to spell to match the EoG ability since it's the original Blinding Spittle. Plus, that spell is kind of insane anyways.

[eggynack]

It's definitely one of the better second level druid spells, as an efficient debuff that is usually going to hit, and is usually going to represent an overwhelming advantage against the enemy in question. Still, you're stuck at close range, and the penalty to the ranged touch attack makes a hit less guaranteed than it would ordinarily be on a ranged touch attack. I'd probably not nerf it, cause I think that blinding spittle is nifty, and if you do this, it'd probably just mean a shift to kelpstrand, and maybe mass snake's swiftness if he's not tied to debuffs.

[Asteron]

It's always been my understanding that a touch attack is the result of something that hurts you regardless of how it hits you. Take the inflict wounds line of spells for example. It doesn't matter if the caster touches your finger, the magic is going to be transferred into your body... It doesn't matter if you turn your back or attempt to shield yourself.

Blinding Spittle, however, needs to hit you in the eyes. It doesn't have any effect on someone who turns their back, uses their arm to block the spittle, or ducks behind some cover. That's why a reflex save makes sense over a touch attack to me.

This is purely a flavor thing for me. I don't mind my PCs having powerful option at their disposal to ruin their enemies plans. I expect it. This has just been gnawing at me since the PC first used it.

[Rebel7284]

It's a nice spell, but I don't think it's good enough to nerf... as mentioned, Dex applying to AC already accounts for dodging. Glitterdust can blind multiple enemies at this level while also countering invisibility.

[nedz]

Blinding SpittleSpC: Absolutely broken. Blindness with no save, with a ranged touch attack at:4. Why do they keep reprinting this spell?

Well this handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940) reckons that the spell is Absolutely broken FWIW

[Dimers]

Compare to Ray of Light ... ranged touch attack, no save, SR Yes, blinds for only d4 rounds, level 6 spell.

I don't think either one is at the right level, really. They should both be around level 3 for what they do.

Maybe I'm overestimating the actual value, though, since there are plenty of creatures partially or wholly immune to the penalties that blindness causes.

[Asteron]

Dex applying to AC already accounts for dodging. Glitterdust can blind multiple enemies at this level while also countering invisibility.

I don't buy the first part, as I've already explained.

Glitterdust is also a Will: negates for the blindness save. That's fairly important when comparing them.

[Fax Celestis]

mass snake's swiftness

That spell is waaaaay better than people give it credit for.

[ddude987]

That spell is waaaaay better than people give it credit for.

agreed. and its a lot more fun for everybody to actually take actions that are meaningful. It isn't very meaningful to attack an enemy who can't hurt you because Mr. Wizard blinded him for NI rounds.

[Snowbluff]

Maybe I'm overestimating the actual value, though, since there are plenty of creatures partially or wholly immune to the penalties that blindness causes.

Everyone is.

Compare to Invisibility. 50% miss chance if they can find you.

Compare to Glitterdust, which only has 1 practical defense a will save (Not counting SR, which is rare early on). If you count, you would realize that creatures get 1 defense, their touch AC.

Obscuring Snow + Snowsight. Hour per level total concealment fog.

Obscuring sight is a common effect for that level. It's not that big of a deal. The primary difference is that spittle is reliant on your roll, where as glitterdust relies on their roll.

[Ernir]

Compare to Ray of Light ... ranged touch attack, no save, SR Yes, blinds for only d4 rounds, level 6 spell.

I don't think either one is at the right level, really. They should both be around level 3 for what they do.

Maybe I'm overestimating the actual value, though, since there are plenty of creatures partially or wholly immune to the penalties that blindness causes.

Nah, sounds 'bout right. Blinding Spittle is too good, Ray of Light is very very bad.

[Kraken]

I agree that blinding spittle is overpowered, but it shouldn't be a reflex save any more than any other ranged attack.

[Venger]

agreed. and its a lot more fun for everybody to actually take actions that are meaningful. It isn't very meaningful to attack an enemy who can't hurt you because Mr. Wizard blinded him for NI rounds.

again, blinding spittle's duration is up to the enemy. as soon as they take a standard, they can unblind themselves. pretty in keeping with what a 2nd lvevl spell should be able to do. it even allows SR, so will invalidate itself at mid-high lvls

[Seerow]

Blinding Spittle is nice because it maintains its effectiveness at high levels.

At the level it actually comes online? A touch attack with -4 to hit is probably worse than a reflex save.

Consider a Druid with dex 12 (he knows he gets wildshape, why boost dex too high?), and Wis 18 at level 3.

Scenario 1: Targeting an enemy with bad reflex and dex 10:
Touch Attack: +0 to hit against 10, 50% success rate
Reflex Save: +0 saving throw roll against DC16, 75% success rate.

Scenario 2: Targetting an enemy with good reflex and dex 10:
Touch Attack: Unchanged, 50% success rate.
Reflex Save: +3 saving throw against DC16, 60% success rate.

Scenario 3: Targetting an enemy with bad reflex and dex 18:
Touch Attack: +0 to hit against AC 14. 30% success rate
Reflex Save: +4 saving throw roll against DC16, 55% success rate.

Scenario 4: Targetting an enemy with good reflex and dex 18:
Touch Attack: Unchanged. 30% success rate
Reflex Save: +7 saving throw roll against DC16, 40% success rate.


Basically across any likely scenario at level 3, that touch attack is going to be worse than a saving throw. You could optimize for the touch attack (go for a halfling and pump up dex), but that's basically throwing points away when in 2 more levels you'll be wildshaped into something else.

What makes Blinding Spittle so strong is that at high levels, while your attack bonus has scaled a fair amount, touch ACs have stayed the same, or in some cases even gone down (generally for very large creatures), so it's by far the most effective use of a 2nd level slot at level 10 or so, at level 3 it's very underwhelming.

[ddude987]

I don't think it is overpowered. You blind one single creature. If blinding one creature is really that big of a problem, throw more creatures at the players. Glitterdust, an equal spell level, can blind 19 hexes worth of creatures, it targets will save, and isn't subject to SR.

[Eldaran]

It's also very likely the druid is taking an additional -4 to hit for shooting into melee past the first round of combat, since I doubt they have precise shot, so the spell is quite likely to fail.

[Asteron]

Ok. I'll leave it as is.

[nedz]

again, blinding spittle's duration is up to the enemy. as soon as they take a standard, they can unblind themselves. pretty in keeping with what a 2nd lvevl spell should be able to do. it even allows SR, so will invalidate itself at mid-high lvls

Well they're probably in combat, it will likely have to take a move action as well to retrieve it's water flask, and these actions provoke.


Blinding Spittle is nice because it maintains its effectiveness at high levels.

At the level it actually comes online? A touch attack with -4 to hit is probably worse than a reflex save.

Consider a Druid with dex 12 (he knows he gets wildshape, why boost dex too high?), and Wis 18 at level 3.

Scenario 1: Targeting an enemy with bad reflex and dex 10:
Touch Attack: +0 to hit against 10, 50% success rate
Reflex Save: +0 saving throw roll against DC16, 75% success rate.

Scenario 2: Targetting an enemy with good reflex and dex 10:
Touch Attack: Unchanged, 50% success rate.
Reflex Save: +3 saving throw against DC16, 60% success rate.

Scenario 3: Targetting an enemy with bad reflex and dex 18:
Touch Attack: +0 to hit against AC 14. 30% success rate
Reflex Save: +4 saving throw roll against DC16, 55% success rate.

Scenario 4: Targetting an enemy with good reflex and dex 18:
Touch Attack: Unchanged. 30% success rate
Reflex Save: +7 saving throw roll against DC16, 40% success rate.


Basically across any likely scenario at level 3, that touch attack is going to be worse than a saving throw. You could optimize for the touch attack (go for a halfling and pump up dex), but that's basically throwing points away when in 2 more levels you'll be wildshaped into something else.

What makes Blinding Spittle so strong is that at high levels, while your attack bonus has scaled a fair amount, touch ACs have stayed the same, or in some cases even gone down (generally for very large creatures), so it's by far the most effective use of a 2nd level slot at level 10 or so, at level 3 it's very underwhelming.

I looked at Blinding Spittle for a Ray Druid build
Halfling Rogue 1 / Druid 5 / Spellwarp Sniper 5 / Druid ++
Using Zen Archery Dex is irrelevant.

The competitor 2nd level spell is Saltray, which does damage + Stun for 1 round Fort neg.

I also found Sandblast which is poor unless Warped, when it becomes a ray: 1d6 non-lethal, auto-stun for 1 round 10' range. Not too bad for a level 1 spell.

[Seerow]

I looked at Blinding Spittle for a Ray Druid build
Halfling Rogue 1 / Druid 5 / Spellwarp Sniper 5 / Druid ++
Using Zen Archery Dex is irrelevant.

The competitor 2nd level spell is Saltray, which does damage + Stun for 1 round Fort neg.

I also found Sandblast which is poor unless Warped, when it becomes a ray: 1d6 non-lethal, auto-stun for 1 round 10' range. Not too bad for a level 1 spell.

Like I said, you can build for ranged attacks and be much better, just like you automatically get much better as you level up.

But ultimately for 99% of druids, it's below par at the level it comes online, and at higher levels merely stands out for being a low level spell that almost always succeeds. Great if you need somebody blinded RIGHT NOW, but by level 8-10 you generally have better uses of a standard action. It's nice to have as a backup, but there are better spells available in most cases.

[nedz]

It's actually very reminiscent of a standard trick with the light spell in AD&D: where you roll to hit at -4 to blind someone for the duration of the light spell. I seem to recall that being of average utility.