[PF] Magus vs battle oracle comparison

[Bacchus]

Not to familiar with Pathfinder, but getting a chance to play it soon. I have done a little bit of research on the Oracle and am liking the Battle mystery Oracle then somebody showed me the Magus class.

They both are right up my alley as melee casters but has anybody played one or the other. I know the battle Oracle will be mostly heals and buffs and the Magus will probably be debuffs and damage but beyond that I have no idea the real pros and cons or which is more fun to play.

[NightbringerGGZ]

How a Magus performs varies with your build, but they're basically martial attackers that throw out consistently good damage and can periodically provide huge bursts of damage. You can do some debuffing with them, but most people play them as an Evoker with a Sword.

A Battle Oracle is also a nice martial fighter, but with the cleric spell list you're either self-buffing, party buffing or providing emergency healing.

I've played both and they're both fun. The question you should ask yourself is, "Do I want to be dealing a ton of damage each fight, or do I want to be buffing me and my allies?"

[Kudaku]

Overall I think you'll find the magus is somewhat more powerful offensively and the battle oracle is somewhat more durable.

That said, I think the main difference between the two is that the Battle Oracle mostly plays like a traditional fighter cleric in that it has to choose between spells and martial attacks each round while the magus uses both in the same round because of Spell Combat.
In my experience when playing similar classes to the Battle Oracle I found that the action economy was frustrating because you typically really want to get a few buff spells in before wading into combat - sometimes you wind up having to delay your full attacks because of that.

If you like the way the Magus handles the action economy but want to play something with a more divine concept you could take a look at the Warpriest? It's not been published yet but the Pathfinder revised play test (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/advancedClassGuide) is free, available, legal for PFS and it could be a very viable alternative.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Kudaku makes a vary good point about the action economy aspect of things. I'm currently playing a Strength-build Magus and a Dexterity-build Warpriest and both have been a blast. Getting to cast a spell and attack in the same round has proven very useful in either game.

With my Oracle character I mostly planned on using one buffing spell per combat, unless I was able to pre-buff prior to the fight. This character wound up involving a bit more paperwork, as keeping track of the duration of buffs was fairly important to making sure I could full attack as often as possible. On the other hand, I paid much more attention to the GM. On my Magus I've been known to suddenly perk up at the start of combat after letting my mind wander during the previous exposition.

[watchwood]

A Magus will tend to be squishy, but they've got good damage output that can spike into ridiculously excessive levels when you need it to.

As an example, here's what my magus did at level 10 in a fight:

Round 1: Haste, manuevre into place, arcana enchant weapon
Round 2: Frostbite, attack
Round 3: intensified shocking grasp +10d6 electrical (critable), +3 to hit
4 attacks, 4d6+7 damage each (flaming/frost/shocking properties on scimitar)
Frostbite, +d6+10 damage per hit (critable)
song of arcane triump +10d6 (critable)
~143 damage per round. much more after crits

[Drelua]

I haven't played either class, but I'm in a group right now with both. The Magus has the Bladebound and Myrmidarch archetypes and does ridiculous damage, but tends to lose a lot of HP as soon as he obliterates someone and then everyone left wants to kill him. The battle oracle does pretty good damage too, and tends to take punishment a lot better, mostly thanks to healing spells. Just last session, the Magus had to run away with the wizard and the Battle Oracle just stood there casting heal on himself while we were being bombarded with fireballs, and my Monk didn't take a single point of damage.

The scary part is that the Magus is about to start dealing a lot more damage, so he'll basically be one-shotting anything, and then trying very hard not to die as everything swarms him. The Battle is almost as hard to kill as my monk and does decent damage while contributing a lot to the party in the form of buffs and heals. They're both effective characters, so which is more fun really comes down to personal playstyle.

[Kudaku]

Kudaku makes a vary good point about the action economy aspect of things. I'm currently playing a Strength-build Magus and a Dexterity-build Warpriest and both have been a blast. Getting to cast a spell and attack in the same round has proven very useful in either game.

At the risk of completely sidetracking the thread (sorry in advance), how are you finding the Warpriest? I was one of the posters who heavily participated in that play test but unfortunately I haven't been able to play one long-term yet - just low level one-off's and the like. I'd love to get into the guts and the meaty bits of the class :)

[Raimun]

Magus is a great class.

You get the versatility of an Int-based prepared caster and you get to beat people in melee... meaning you won't look like a back rank caster wuss. :smallamused:

I would advice you to invest to a good defense. Your offense will be plenty good with 15-20 critting Intensified Shocking Grasp, etc. If anything survives your initial onslaught, they will target you. At that point you want high AC, saves and such. Remember, you will be in melee over 90% of the time or you are doing something wrong.

You only really need two high stats if you choose wisely. Consider Kensai, a Magus Archetype. You'll lose spells but if you have a high Int, static modifiers granted by Kensai (all tied to Int) more than make up for it since boosting your Intelligence boosts your spells and melee ability. Dexterity complements Int well but you must take Weapon Finesse or Dervish Dance to tie your offense to your Dex. ... Still, better keep Str around 10 and Con at 12-14.

Combine Kensai with Bladebound and suddenly you're free to use all of your money to Wonderous Items, since you don't need Magic Armor or Weapons. :smallcool:

Oracles I have not played but Battle Oracle seems to fight like a melee cleric, only that they are better at melee but aren't quite as good spell casters, what with their slower spell level progression and limited number of spells known.

Still, both Magus and Battle Oracle are great gishes.

[Kudaku]

It should be noted that the magus can use Spell Combat for defensive as well as offensive spells - many people neglect using Spell Combat to cast defensive spells since they want those lethal spellstrikes, but things like Mirror Image or Displacement will really, really help a magus stay in the fight.

A magus "tank" is an entirely valid build and can be exceedingly hard to ignore, though it will most likely rely on short adventuring days since it heavily relies on 2nd and 3rd level spells - in contrast the offensive magus tends to stack Shocking Grasps, which are relatively cheap to replenish via Pearls of Power.

[Spore]

A Magus will tend to be squishy, but they've got good damage output that can spike into ridiculously excessive levels when you need it to.

Not entirely true. With the Shield spell, Deflection bonus via Ring of Prot, an armor and decent Dex you can get nice AC. Saves are almost identical.

The Oracle ist NOT more durable but the class sustains its power for a lot longer. The few spells and the arcana is used up quite quickly while the Oracle can last longer.

It's your Olympian Sprinter vs. the Marathon Runner.

[Bigbeefie]

I love the magus. As far as oracle I would rather play a cleric.

The magus is not as squishy as these folks make him out to be. In early levels yes he is but once you learn mirror image, stone skin you will be just fine. The magus list is rather good.

Might I also suggest making your weapon spellstoring first. You can store vampiric touch and be a spike tank with temporary hit points. That also helps cover his squishiness.

[Passer-by]

I've got no experience with magi, but battle oracles can make interesting comboes as well, if you get Power attack, a few Extra revelations, etc. Buffs pre-fight are useful and may seem boring, but check this out:

Forceful strike is a fourth level spell (which means by level 12 you'll be able to use it at least 6 times a day), swift action, deals 1d4 per level (up to 10d4) force damage and gets you a free bull rush attempt. Battle Oracles can use their level as Combat Maneuver Bonus, and get free maneuver feats, so you will end up making free bull rushes with each critial hit as well. Eagle soul can also be triggered as a swift action, but it doesn't last for long. Righteous might is another sweet buff.

You might make a Battle Oracle the best warrior in the party by using certain buffs, but remember: An Oracle always gets to the end of the day with unused spell slots.

Battle mystery is such a solid choice.

[NightbringerGGZ]

At the risk of completely sidetracking the thread (sorry in advance), how are you finding the Warpriest? I was one of the posters who heavily participated in that play test but unfortunately I haven't been able to play one long-term yet - just low level one-off's and the like. I'd love to get into the guts and the meaty bits of the class :)


So I was stuck with a 15 point buy, which was really rough to use. Like many of the other new classes, I found the Warpriest to be needlessly MAD. I opted for a Dervish Dance build so I could at the least dump my Str score (knowing that my GM ignores encumbrance rules). Really my biggest problem with the class was trying to figure out a build, until at some point I just realized I wasn't going to have an attribute over 16 at first level.

That being said, the class has worked out rather well in combat. I'm not hitting very hard right now, but my attack modifier is quite high thanks to all the bonuses the class gives you. When I start to take damage, I can use a swift action to cast a Cure Spell on myself which is great, and the ability to buff via swift action is amazing too.

I'll see how things work once I get to higher levels. I expect I'll be picking up Weapon Specialization to increase my damage some, which is an option most Dervish builds don't get. Combined with the cleric spell list to buff myself I think the class does rather well.

[Arc_knight25]

The magus spell list is great. Alot of utility in their spell list. Not as good as a straight Wizard, but enough that you can still by pass barriers and such with just a spell.

In our campaign I play a lvl 14 Magus Dex build(weapon finesse), my dmg is decent when I want to lay the smack down, but for the most part I help buff the party fighter and let him swing his greataxe around. I have slots for utility spells (Levitate, dim door, teleport...etc) debuffs (glitterdust, web, ray of Enfeeblement) and buffs (Stoneskin, Haste, Mirror image, etc)

The great thing about being a prepared caster is that you can always change the spells you ready to be more fitting for what you think your encounters will be.

And if you do make it to lvl 19(high hopes) you get 2 spells of your choice from 0-6 from the Wizard spell list.

As for the Battle Oracle depends on what your party consists of. If your the only "healer" class then more then likely in my experience everyone will look to you for healing when that are near death in combat. Which my not jive with the spells that you know or your character concept.

[watchwood]

The magus is not as squishy as these folks make him out to be. In early levels yes he is but once you learn mirror image, stone skin you will be just fine. The magus list is rather good.

If you've got the rounds to spend on buffing, He can be quite durable. But that's the case for pretty much every spellcaster, and actions you spend on buffing are actions you're not spending on murdering things.

Leave most of the buff spells to the support casters.

[Bigbeefie]

If you've got the rounds to spend on buffing, He can be quite durable. But that's the case for pretty much every spellcaster, and actions you spend on buffing are actions you're not spending on murdering things.

Leave most of the buff spells to the support casters.

Mirror image and Stone skin are a magus responsibility...Mirror image last minute per level so it becomes a pre fight buff. Stone skin lasts 10 minutes per level so that is a buff you cast as you get to the place you expect to have fighting. Not all fights are surprise fights and you will have plenty of time to buff up.

[watchwood]

Mirror image and Stone skin are a magus responsibility...Mirror image last minute per level so it becomes a pre fight buff. Stone skin lasts 10 minutes per level so that is a buff you cast as you get to the place you expect to have fighting. Not all fights are surprise fights and you will have plenty of time to buff up.

Stoneskin's got a rather sizable material cost. You won't always be able to afford to pop it any time you might see some fighting.

[Bacchus]

I took a look at the kensai magus and it looks fun but seems like it would be almost necessary to have a primary arcane caster in the party.

The straight magus looks more powerful with the expanded. Spell list at high level....but the kensai does have the melee flavor in spades

[NightbringerGGZ]

I took a look at the kensai magus and it looks fun but seems like it would be almost necessary to have a primary arcane caster in the party.

The straight magus looks more powerful with the expanded. Spell list at high level....but the kensai does have the melee flavor in spades

My magus is a Bladebound Kensai and there is a Wizard in my party to provide the utility magic.

I play the character as a lightly-armored Fighter who can perform a few neat tricks each day. It does not approach the versatility or spell casting potential of a standard Magus. Personally, I'm fine with this as I deal a ton of damage with just pure physical damage and can burn down really tough opponents with a spell when required. I'm also making use of Pearls of Power to refresh my 1st level and 2nd level spells between combats, which I can more than afford to do since I'm not buying weapon or armor upgrades.

Really though, the character is just FUN. And that's all that matters =)

[Bigbeefie]

Stoneskin's got a rather sizable material cost. You won't always be able to afford to pop it any time you might see some fighting.

It is costly But Resurrection is more expensive and 250g worth of Materials isn't that expensive at level 10 when you have a good Wealth pool to fund a few castings. But in typical games you know when your entering the BBEGs liar and I don't mind spending 250g to have DR 10 for 100 Minutes. That is well worth it compared to either A- Taking damage and Blowing through Heals and consumables, wand of cure light or B- dying and having to pay Resurrection cost and then cost to remove the Negative levels that come with it.

an Ounce of Prevention is worth a Pound of Cure.

Its really up to the player but a Stone skin from time to time will not break the bank when at level 10 your estimated character wealth is 62,000 Gold.

[Kudaku]

So I was stuck with a 15 point buy, which was really rough to use. Like many of the other new classes, I found the Warpriest to be needlessly MAD. I opted for a Dervish Dance build so I could at the least dump my Str score (knowing that my GM ignores encumbrance rules). Really my biggest problem with the class was trying to figure out a build, until at some point I just realized I wasn't going to have an attribute over 16 at first level.

That being said, the class has worked out rather well in combat. I'm not hitting very hard right now, but my attack modifier is quite high thanks to all the bonuses the class gives you. When I start to take damage, I can use a swift action to cast a Cure Spell on myself which is great, and the ability to buff via swift action is amazing too.

I'll see how things work once I get to higher levels. I expect I'll be picking up Weapon Specialization to increase my damage some, which is an option most Dervish builds don't get. Combined with the cleric spell list to buff myself I think the class does rather well.


That's interesting - during the playtest I played (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qg0w?Level-4-Warpriest-playtest#1) an aasimar DD warpriest of Sarenrae. One of my main complaints about the class (and one of the main complaints about the class in general if I remember the play test thread correctly) was that it is indeed needlessly MAD - making Fervor work off of Wisdom instead of Charisma would put it on equal footing with the paladin.

If you get a chance you should also take a look at the Bladebound Magus - it adds a lot to the class and the downside isn't quite as painful as the Kensai drawbacks.

[Bigbeefie]

That's interesting - during the playtest I played (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qg0w?Level-4-Warpriest-playtest#1) an aasimar DD warpriest of Sarenrae. One of my main complaints about the class (and one of the main complaints about the class in general if I remember the play test thread correctly) was that it is indeed needlessly MAD - making Fervor work off of Wisdom instead of Charisma would put it on equal footing with the paladin.

If you get a chance you should also take a look at the Bladebound Magus - it adds a lot to the class and the downside isn't quite as painful as the Kensai drawbacks.

More on the War Oracle....I recommend 2 levels of Paladin for Divine Grace + cha to Saves, +2 BAB, d10 HD, Martial weapon proficiency, Heavy armor, and Smite 1/day, and Lay on hands 1+cha a day. Really adds to the Battle Oracle's package. You will be down 2 Spell levels but You will hit more consistently and against 1 target a day you will Hit Very hard. Not to mention Battle clerics Hardly need Higher then 6th level spells. You also take the Trait Magical Knack Oracle so your spells Duration's are at your full level and last longer.

If you get Silver Smite Bracelets then you can smite 2/day as a 6th Level Paladin. Don't fall for the Bracers of the Avenging Knight as it only adds to the damage and wont give you the Extra smite per day.

[Raimun]

I took a look at the kensai magus and it looks fun but seems like it would be almost necessary to have a primary arcane caster in the party.

No Magus can be the primary arcane caster of the party. Don't try to be one. You're limited to 6 spell levels, you gain them slow and Magus spell list lacks basically every spell which doesn't have obvious combat uses. The spells you get are powerful but you're not a full caster.

Try to blend martial and arcane to something new. That's the whole point of Magus.



The straight magus looks more powerful with the expanded. Spell list at high level....but the kensai does have the melee flavor in spades

Kensai is very fun. You'll have one spell/day less per spell level but I've found out that Kensai don't need to buff themselves so much since they are so much better fighters than vanilla magi. This kind of evens things out together with high Int (Kensai benefit more from high Int) and Pearls of Power.

And believe me, Critical Perfection+Critical Focus is so much worth it. I've confirmed all of my critical threats starting from level 9... and there have been many.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I found many of the classes difficult if not impossible to stat out at 15pb. I'm just lucky that only one of my friends uses it when he GMs.

Making Fervor work solely on Wisdom is frankly mandatory for the class, and is the first (of many) house rules I have planned "just in case" for when this book comes out. The fact that it also scales with 1/2 your level isn't so bad though.

My biggest gripe is actually the way Channel Energy works. I'm seriously thinking about making Channel Energy work entirely off of your classes Casting Stat. So Wisdom for Druids, Clerics, Shaman Warpriests and Charisma for Oracles and Paladins. Shaman are really the only class on the list that it might make sense to use Charisma instead of the primary casting stat for, since they seem to be designed to care about 2 casting stats more.

I'm also quite a bit less excited about the Blessings now that I'm actually using them. Some of them I misread, and some I just didn't pay too much attention to, but on the whole I find many of them to just be underwhelming. I still think the mechanic and bonuses wind up being better than the Cleric Domains, but my opinion of those is so low that that isn't really saying much.

Overall though, I think the class is pretty solid. I think it's actually a Paladin/Cleric combo more than it is a Fighter/Cleric combo, but I'm not going to complain about qualifying for Fighter feats. The changes that the beta version needs are relatively minor and I'm looking forward to how my character will play out at mid to high levels.


Back to the OP. I really can't stress enough how fun my Bladebound Kensai has been. I had 4 confirmed crits in my last play session (we were level 4) and one was a Shocking Grasp Spellstrike delivered on an temporarily exposed boss that finished it off when it was still at over half health. You just have to find ways to deal with how fragile your character is.

[Raimun]

Back to the OP. I really can't stress enough how fun my Bladebound Kensai has been. I had 4 confirmed crits in my last play session (we were level 4) and one was a Shocking Grasp Spellstrike delivered on an temporarily exposed boss that finished it off when it was still at over half health. You just have to find ways to deal with how fragile your character is.

I'm a Bladebound Kensai too and my fighting AC has been from level 10 onward over 30, depending on if I have Combat Expertise, Haste, Shield etc. on. My personal record has been 40. One Mirror Image later enemy melee attacks are the least of my worries.

Pre-errata Crane Wing was a fantastic Feat for a high AC Magus. If you use rules as printed on an actual book, take it by all means.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I'm a Bladebound Kensai too and my fighting AC has been from level 10 onward over 30, depending on if I have Combat Expertise, Haste, Shield etc. on. My personal record has been 40. One Mirror Image later enemy melee attacks are the least of my worries.

Pre-errata Crane Wing was a fantastic Feat for a high AC Magus. If you use rules as printed on an actual book, take it by all means.

Good point. Low AC is really only a significant problem during early levels. I've been dealing with the issue with a Wand of Mage Armor that was well worth the expended gold. I've got a 22 AC at level 4, which isn't bad. With Spell Blending at level 6 allowing me to add Mage Armor to my spell list and better defensive spells coming online, I don't see any future problems.

[Kudaku]

I found many of the classes difficult if not impossible to stat out at 15pb. I'm just lucky that only one of my friends uses it when he GMs.

Making Fervor work solely on Wisdom is frankly mandatory for the class, and is the first (of many) house rules I have planned "just in case" for when this book comes out. The fact that it also scales with 1/2 your level isn't so bad though.

My biggest gripe is actually the way Channel Energy works. I'm seriously thinking about making Channel Energy work entirely off of your classes Casting Stat. So Wisdom for Druids, Clerics, Shaman Warpriests and Charisma for Oracles and Paladins. Shaman are really the only class on the list that it might make sense to use Charisma instead of the primary casting stat for, since they seem to be designed to care about 2 casting stats more.

I'm also quite a bit less excited about the Blessings now that I'm actually using them. Some of them I misread, and some I just didn't pay too much attention to, but on the whole I find many of them to just be underwhelming. I still think the mechanic and bonuses wind up being better than the Cleric Domains, but my opinion of those is so low that that isn't really saying much.

Overall though, I think the class is pretty solid. I think it's actually a Paladin/Cleric combo more than it is a Fighter/Cleric combo, but I'm not going to complain about qualifying for Fighter feats. The changes that the beta version needs are relatively minor and I'm looking forward to how my character will play out at mid to high levels.


Absolutely agree on Channel Energy, I suspect the main reason why they kept it in is so that Warpriests qualify for cleric prestige classes. Both the Channel Energy and the LoH progression is so slow that Warpriests will most likely rarely use it. Blessings were iffy from the start but Bulmahn seemed attached to them. I kind of hope they get cut to be honest - just give Warpriests a domain/inquisition. How often do you use the Sacred Weapon imbue power? I found the 1 round/level is a bit too strict personally.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Absolutely agree on Channel Energy, I suspect the main reason why they kept it in is so that Warpriests qualify for cleric prestige classes. Both the Channel Energy and the LoH progression is so slow that Warpriests will most likely rarely use it. Blessings were iffy from the start but Bulmahn seemed attached to them. I kind of hope they get cut to be honest - just give Warpriests a domain/inquisition. How often do you use the Sacred Weapon imbue power? I found the 1 round/level is a bit too strict personally.

I rarely use the Sacred Weapon ability, basically saving it for "boss" fights. I look at the ability and think the designers realized too late that they'd give the Warpriest yet another Paladin ability and then tried (poorly) to make it different.

[Kudaku]

I rarely use the Sacred Weapon ability, basically saving it for "boss" fights. I look at the ability and think the designers realized too late that they'd give the Warpriest yet another Paladin ability and then tried (poorly) to make it different.

I never noticed that (all the paladins I've played with take the mount) but it really does seem to be "divine bond: Weapon" only that it sucks - extremely short duration, underwhelming list of enhancement options, and once you pick you're locked into those options till the next day. I used to compare it to the Inquisitor's Bane but it falls short in that comparison as well - Bane gives you significantly more boom for your buck than anything the Sacred Weapon can offer.

Bladebound Kensai is very powerful in melee, but you sacrifice quite a lot of magical offense - it kind of shifts the balance from "spellcaster who fights" to "martial guy who also casts spells".

Actually, another option - have you considered the Inquisitor? It's a sixth level progression class like the magus but it's fairly martial in its own right.