I want to use a well known trick but i need some guidance..

[Kerilstrasz]

The old trick with a perma shrinked led cone on your head that expands to full size when in an AMF.

Now..
i know the basics and how the trick works, but i need a bit info on some details.

1st.. in regards to size.
How big should the cone be before i shrink it & and how small will the shrank cone will be? (dimensions plz, not "large,small or tiny")

2nd.. about the "cloth-like" choice
lets assume i shrink the cone into a piece of cloth that i sew into a hood on my cloak. A AMF triggers it.
a) Will my cloak be teared into pieces?
b) Will the "hood" (after i leave AMF) will still be stitched on my cloak?

3rd.. about creating the cone
i am, and will be, in a dungeon for a long time. That means i can't have someone craft the cone for me.
My thoughts are (provided i find led bars or items made of led) using either shape metal or fabricate. Will any of these do the job?

4th.. regarding Line of Effect
if i read SRD correctly, an effect needs an opening at least 1 foot wide to penetrate a barrier.
So... if i have small holes on the cone (about 1 inch wide) so i can take a look outside or even for breathing air if needed to stay in the cone for extended periods of time,
will the AMF (or any other not-air based spell) still affect me?

Thnx for your time & help :smallsmile:

[TuggyNE]

1st.. in regards to size.
How big should the cone be before i shrink it & and how small will the shrank cone will be? (dimensions plz, not "large,small or tiny")

8-10' high, 5-6' diameter at the base. If you like you can round the top off instead of leaving it pointy.


2nd.. about the "cloth-like" choice
lets assume i shrink the cone into a piece of cloth that i sew into a hood on my cloak. A AMF triggers it.
a) Will my cloak be teared into pieces?
b) Will the "hood" (after i leave AMF) will still be stitched on my cloak?

Yes and no respectively.


3rd.. about creating the cone
i am, and will be, in a dungeon for a long time. That means i can't have someone craft the cone for me.
My thoughts are (provided i find led bars or items made of led) using either shape metal or fabricate. Will any of these do the job?

Yeah.

It doesn't have to be lead, either; any relatively rigid material will do the job.


4th.. regarding Line of Effect
if i read SRD correctly, an effect needs an opening at least 1 foot wide to penetrate a barrier.
So... if i have small holes on the cone (about 1 inch wide) so i can take a look outside or even for breathing air if needed to stay in the cone for extended periods of time,
will the AMF (or any other not-air based spell) still affect me?

It's one square foot, not one foot. So a single slice out of it that's 4' by 3" would count as allowing LoE, but a set of 1" holes would not.

That said, it's not generally a good idea to sit in the cone for any length of time, since you're basically helpless. Turtling wins very few battles.

[AdamantlyD20]

Are you trying to wear a piece of clothing with a lead cone stitched into a type of mesh inside your hood so that when it grows to full size its on your head like a hat? What purpose does this serve, a little more details please?

[eggynack]

Are you trying to wear a piece of clothing with a lead cone stitched into a type of mesh inside your hood so that when it grows to full size its on your head like a hat? What purpose does this serve, a little more details please?
As per the cone hat trick, the object is a hat in its shrunken form, and a cone in its un-shrunken form. Thus, in an AMF, the hat expands into a cone, breaking line of effect, and thus blocking the AMF. In this fashion, you are relatively protected from AMF's.

[Eldest]

Are you trying to wear a piece of clothing with a lead cone stitched into a type of mesh inside your hood so that when it grows to full size its on your head like a hat? What purpose does this serve, a little more details please?

The idea is that you take a cone you can fit into. Cast Shrink Item on it. Now wear it like a hat. If you ever go into an antimagic field, it unshrinks, cutting you off from the AMF and then letting you still cast.

[Kerilstrasz]

1st of all thank you very much.

Second..

It doesn't have to be lead, either; any relatively rigid material will do the job.

I'm thinking led so it can block all these spells that "a fine sheet of led" is enough to block it. Well.. it may not be the ideal use of led but since i ll be in that process , why not? :smallsmile:

And again thnx a lot :smallsmile:

[Kelb_Panthera]

The old trick with a perma shrinked led cone on your head that expands to full size when in an AMF.

Now..
i know the basics and how the trick works, but i need a bit info on some details.

TuggyNE did a fair breakdown but I think Imma do one too, just for funsies.


1st.. in regards to size.
How big should the cone be before i shrink it & and how small will the shrank cone will be? (dimensions plz, not "large,small or tiny")

The cone should be no more than 5ft in diameter at its base and not much taller than your character, maybe even a tad shorter. It's imperative that it be made of something solid and heavy so that when it unshrinks it will crush any minor obstacles and land fairly flush to the ground. I'm fond of solid lead an inch thick.

When shrunk it is reduced to 1/16th of its normal dimensions, 1/4000th of its volume, and a commensurate weight; again, roughly 1/4000th.


2nd.. about the "cloth-like" choice
lets assume i shrink the cone into a piece of cloth that i sew into a hood on my cloak. A AMF triggers it.
a) Will my cloak be teared into pieces?
b) Will the "hood" (after i leave AMF) will still be stitched on my cloak?

A) yes, very much so.

B) maybe some of the remaining scrap might.

This is a -really- bad idea. Absent any text to the contrary, one assumes that the shrunken object unshrinks in its current orientation. If its center of gravity isn't over its base, the cone will not stand upright upon landing but will, instead, tip over onto its side, accomplishing nothing useful.

There's nothing in the spell's description to suggest that the cloth-like form doesn't retain the object's basic shape. You take the cloth cone and put it on your head as a hat, just like so many artistically depicted wizards.

Technically, the geometry of a hemisphere would also work for this trick. Since I prefer a skull-cap to a pointy hat, I tend to go with that.


3rd.. about creating the cone
i am, and will be, in a dungeon for a long time. That means i can't have someone craft the cone for me.
My thoughts are (provided i find led bars or items made of led) using either shape metal or fabricate. Will any of these do the job?

I don't think shape metal will work. Not unless you can weld the scrap into one piece first. Fabricate, on the other hand, should work just fine once you have enough raw material. Do be aware, however, that the sheer weight of that much metal is pretty impressive.


4th.. regarding Line of Effect
if i read SRD correctly, an effect needs an opening at least 1 foot wide to penetrate a barrier.
So... if i have small holes on the cone (about 1 inch wide) so i can take a look outside or even for breathing air if needed to stay in the cone for extended periods of time,
will the AMF (or any other not-air based spell) still affect me?

It's 1 square foot, not 1 foot wide. The shape of the opening is irrelevant so long as it is of sufficient area. That's why you want the thing to be heavy, so it will land flush with the ground; crushing any minor obstacles if necessary. This does have a rather unfortunate side-effect if you're in a less than sturdy structure but them's the breaks.

You don't want to spend -any- time under the cone at all, if you can help it, and you want to get out of it and into a tactically superior position ASAP. Openings in the cone aren't particularly helpful and create a vulnerability to gasses that you wouldn't otherwise have. If you can cast permanency then you should also be able to cast D-door unless you've done something so silly as to ban conjuration.


Thnx for your time & help :smallsmile:

That's half the point of a forum, so no prob. :smallsmile:

[TuggyNE]

That's half the point of a forum, so no prob. :smallsmile:

The other half is to waste time on unhelpful arguments about nothing. Caveat lector, or whatever. :smallwink:

[eggynack]

The other half is to waste time on unhelpful arguments about nothing. Caveat lector, or whatever. :smallwink:
Sounds about right. I think I prefer this half, though both halves are less fun when they get mired in past stuff. The best thing is when you have a double feature: a helping folks thread which suddenly devolves into pointless arguments, or a pointless argument that turns up some new optimization stuff, particularly if I use the new optimization stuff in a later helping folks thread.

[Eldest]

The other half is to waste time on unhelpful arguments about nothing. Caveat lector, or whatever. :smallwink:

You're wrong and a horrible person for saying that!

[ericgrau]

1) 8 feet tall by 3 feet wide. 6 inches tall by 2.25 inches wide.

2) It might make a single long tear and then still be attached on one side but not the other. If you attach it loosely such as with a few 18 inch pieces of string it should be fine without any tears. It may tip over, but it should right itself when it expands from the strings pulling.

3) Lead is soft. All you really need is a hammer or large rock or something and a lot of time. Fabricate does work too.

4) Usually. But fireball and a good attack roll is a notable exception.

Agreed that hiding in your cone also stops your spells from hitting enemies. Effectively putting you in a mundane AMF. Which is exactly what you were trying to avoid in the first place. Oh snap! At least you can cast defensive things like dimension door. But you shouldn't just sit in there doing nothing and watching the enemy behind your easily penetrable shield.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't know about 8ft X 3ft. That seems like it would be prone to tipping. I'd aim for something more like 6ft tall by 5ft wide; a much more stable cone. It'll be a little rough on your neck when an AMF sets it off but a lot less rough than the guy producing the AMF. That's just me though.

[Kerilstrasz]

thank you all for the input..
one last thing. If there is someone out there good in maths, how much led will i need (in cubic feet), to craft a 2,5 feet radius , 6 feet high led cone with 1 inch thickness?

[Kelb_Panthera]

thank you all for the input..
one last thing. If there is someone out there good in maths, how much led will i need (in cubic feet), to craft a 2,5 feet radius , 6 feet high led cone with 1 inch thickness?

I did the math on this once, I'm certain it's well within shrink item's limit at the level you can make it permanent.

Gimme a minute for exact figures.

Edit: If I've done this right, it's slightly over 51 cubic feet. I suppose I must've used a somewhat smaller or thinner design last time.

[Skevvix]

I did the math on this once, I'm certain it's well within shrink item's limit at the level you can make it permanent.

Gimme a minute for exact figures.

Edit: If I've done this right, it's slightly over 51 cubic feet. I suppose I must've used a somewhat smaller or thinner design last time.

I must have done something WAYYY wrong, I came up with only slightly over 2 cubic feet of led needed. surface area was 24.06 sq ft, and only 1" thick...

[weckar]

I hope you have considered the weight of such an item on your head?

And that it would look completely silly?

[eggynack]

I hope you have considered the weight of such an item on your head?

And that it would look completely silly?
Not really, because it's a hat made of clothlike material, and not really, because it's a hat made of clothlike material. So, there ya go.

[Skevvix]

I hope you have considered the weight of such an item on your head?

And that it would look completely silly?

the weight of a cubic foot of lead is 708 lbs. So if Kelb's figure is accurate the shrunken cone would weigh 9 lbs, if mine are accurate it would weigh .354 lbs.

[weckar]

I'm not entirely up to date with my magical size-changing rules, so I'll take your word for it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I hope you have considered the weight of such an item on your head?

And that it would look completely silly?

My results came out much larger than I remembered. If I -have- made a mistake and Skavvix's figure is correct, the weight is negligible. A third of a pound isn't that heavy.


the weight of a cubic foot of lead is 708 lbs. So if Kelb's figure is accurate the shrunken cone would weigh 9 lbs, if mine are accurate it would weigh .354 lbs.

Let's see.

The surface area of a cone is Pi times the radius times the the length of the slant plus Pi times the radius squared, if I'm not mistaken. We don't need the surface of the base so we can discard Pi*R^2.

6ft by 2.5ft becomes 72in by 30in. We solve for the hypotenuse with pythagoras: 72^2 + 30^2 = X^2; X=78in by my calculator.

This gives us Pi*78*30=7351.33in sq for the surface area. At an inch thick that becomes 7351.33in cubed or, at 144in cubed per cubic foot, 51.05 cubic feet.

.... which is actually slightly larger than I got a moment ago. I guess I should've written it down earlier.

Edit: no wait, I see an error. 6ft is 72 inches.

edit2: corrected.

Wait.... how did you get almost a 30th of the weight from half the mass?

Let's see here; 11.3g/cc for lead.

7351.33in divided by .061 makes 120513.61cc times 11.3 makes 1,361,803.75 grams or 1,361.8kg times 2.2 makes 2995.97lbs or about a ton and a half.

Shrunken that's 2995.97 divided by 4000 becomes about 3/4 of a pound.

[weckar]

Lead is much too soft to support it's own weight with an edge that thin....

[Kelb_Panthera]

Lead is much too soft to support it's own weight with an edge that thin....

Is it?

No matter. It's nothing a bit of rebar can't fix.

[weckar]

Very true. You just passed the first year of Engineering, by the way.

[zionpopsickle]

Lead is much too soft to support it's own weight with an edge that thin....

Technically this is probably true but materials in D&D tend to follow their own rather silly set of physics. Which makes some sense given that D&D does not use an atomistic system but a system in which matter is composed of platonic elements instead.

Hell, one only needs to look at the rules for how light works to quickly understand that electromagnetism is utterly borked and thus anything based off of inter-molecular or inter-atomic forces is basically impossible to conjecture about within the realm of D&D physics.

Edit: Minor typo

[Kelb_Panthera]

Very true. You just passed the first year of Engineering, by the way.

Eh?

I don't suppose you're in a position to make that an official accreditation? :smalltongue:

[Teh_das]

The limit to the amount of lead isn't the problem.


Shrink Item
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level

By the time you can cast level 5 spells for permanency, you should be able to use 18 lbs. of lead. That comes about to 216 square feet of the stuff at 1" thick, and make a hemisphere of about 11.75' in diameter, with a shrunken diameter of about 8.8" (I'm imagining a viking helmet).

That much lead brings with it a whopping 5616 Kg, so 1/4000th of that is about 1.4 Kg, or about 3.1 pounds.

By the time you can cast permanency, you have a big enough dome to shield you and a buddy. You should be fine for how much space you need.


Edit: So very, VERY ninja'd

[weckar]

One issue I do want to bring up. According to the spell description, Object Spell Resistance should be applied. Now, excuse my reading, but in general it looks like lead in particular is the D&D equivalent of 100% Solid Form Spell Resistance. How are we overcoming that?

[Aegis013]

One issue I do want to bring up. ...but in general it looks like... 100% Solid Form Spell Resistance. How are we overcoming that?

Do you have a rules citation for this?

[Flickerdart]

One issue I do want to bring up. According to the spell description, Object Spell Resistance should be applied. Now, excuse my reading, but in general it looks like lead in particular is the D&D equivalent of 100% Solid Form Spell Resistance. How are we overcoming that?
How do you figure? Lead blocks some divination spells, and that's it. That in no way extends to "perfect SR". It's not a golem. Lightning bolt and fireball, spells of SR:Yes, explicitly melt right through the stuff.

[weckar]

The fact that it can block antimagic, as per this topic, seems to indicate as much. As do indeed limitations on divination spells, spells such as stonewalk.... Just a point to be considered, you know. If anything, it is the best example of non-magical object SR I know of.

[Khedrac]

This gives us Pi*78*30=7351.33in sq for the surface area. At an inch thick that becomes 7351.33in cubed or, at 144in cubed per cubic foot, 51.05 cubic feet.
12 inches to a foot
144 square inches to a square foot
1728 cubic inches to a cubit foot.

so 4.25 cubic feet.

[Chen]

The fact that it can block antimagic, as per this topic, seems to indicate as much. As do indeed limitations on divination spells, spells such as stonewalk.... Just a point to be considered, you know. If anything, it is the best example of non-magical object SR I know of.

It doesn't mystically block antimagic. It's a solid object so it blocks line of effect which prevents the AMF from affecting you. For that purpose, as mentioned earlier, it doesn't even need to be lead. By the rules lead blocks various divinations and that's about it barring other specific exceptions I don't recall.

[Osiris]

1st.. in regards to size.
How big should the cone be before i shrink it & and how small will the shrank cone will be? (dimensions plz, not "large,small or tiny")

I believe Shrink Item can shrink up to 1/16th size, so make a hat 16 times normal specifications. I hope this helps, I have no hats to measure myself.

[Segev]

Don't forget to carve stars and moons into the cone before you Shrink it.

[Kerilstrasz]

So.. to sum this up.

I need
4.25 cubic feet. of led,by means of fabricate or shape metal, i make it into a cone with the specifications i provided before.

4,25cf of led weights approximately =< 1.5 metric tone
the clothlike hat would weight about < 0,5 kilo

About this..

Don't forget to carve stars and moons into the cone before you Shrink it.
Why? just for the likes of it or it serves a purpose?

Thank you all very very much

[nedz]

Well now we have the real reason Wizards wear pointy hats.

[Segev]

Why? just for the likes of it or it serves a purpose?


What self-respecting wizard's pointy hat doesn't have stars and moons on it?

(Just for fun, really.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

The fact that it can block antimagic, as per this topic, seems to indicate as much. As do indeed limitations on divination spells, spells such as stonewalk.... Just a point to be considered, you know. If anything, it is the best example of non-magical object SR I know of.

As was mentioned, it's not the lead blocking the AMF. Its the hat breaking LoE. If it was made of paper reinforced with wicker it would -still- block the AMF. Lead is chosen because of its immense weight, its relative sturdiness, and because it -does- block (scrying) spells and a few other divinations.


12 inches to a foot
144 square inches to a square foot
1728 cubic inches to a cubit foot.

so 4.25 cubic feet.

So it is. I knew that figure didn't match up with what I got the last time I ran these calculations.

I have noticed one small issue with the tinfoil hat. The 6ft X 5ft hat shrinks down to 4.5in X 3.75in; a rather tiny hat. Good fashion sense may demand a slightly larger hat. :smalltongue: