Front lining cleric/barbarian? Role of the Cleric.

[MonkeySage]

In a recent conversation with my former stepfather, I mentioned the the cleric of our group is a beast on the front line, and he took issue with this. He believes that this is poor teamwork, and that the cleric should stay in the back and focus on healing the rest of the group. It's his opinion that if the cleric continues on his current path, he should be penalized for it.

Now, I agree that they could work on their teamwork, but I disagree with his opinion regarding the role of the cleric.
I really like this player's character concept, and some of the most exciting parts of our encounters involve this character wading into combat.

The former stepfather, as I've mentioned in another recent post, is coming from 20 years of 2e experience, so I don't know if his opinion on the topic is shaped by differences between 2e and 3e clerics...

Additionally, if clerics are supposed to stick to healing, i have to wonder what that says about evil clerics...

[SPoilaaja]

Clerics are not supposed to be healing sticks. That is why they have spells like Divine power and Divine favor. They also have heavy armor proficiency and can get a WAR domain. With alternative class features they can swap law domain for law devotion which gives up to +7 to hit. How is that a healing stick?

[weckar]

A Cleric's duty is as much in protection and prevention of damage as it is in healing it afterwards. If by being on the front lines the Cleric can end the battle one round faster, that's one less round of damage to be patched later.
In-battle healing is simply an inefficient use of actions in all but the most dire circumstances. Exceptions are of course secondary effects or HOT.

[Arc_knight25]

I can understand your Stepfather's thinking. I'm guessing he came from a 1st ed or 2nd ed upbringing in DnD, which didn't have all the options for Clerics as they do now. When you needed a dedicated healer.

I personally kind of agree with your Stepfather, but it also depends on what the party make up is. If the party thought that this player was going cleric, they probably have an expectation that he will be doing in combat healing as opposed to just going to the frontline and not being able to get to a player when they need healing.

If they knew he was going to go with a more combat oriented frontline approach then thats fine, hopefully another character can help with healing or decided to be a more dedicated healer then the frontline cleric.

[Agincourt]

Forcing Clerics into the role of healing leads to players refusing to play a Cleric. The party is worse off as it ends up with less effective character classes doing a patchwork job of all the things a Cleric can do.

Now you concede the player in question could work on teamwork. It might be worthwhile to have a discussion about that, but telling him he has to be the healer and healer only is going to lead to negativity.

[jjcrpntr]

In my 3.5 group our front line was a fighter, barbarian and my cleric. Our front line was awesome. My cleric has the holy and Sun domains (which I plan to change he was my first character) but I did most of my healing out of combat. In combat it was buff, cast spiritual weapon, run in and beat on things with my glaive.

The barbarian in our group constantly thought I was a healbot and would scream for healing during fights. We finally convinced him otherwise and had him get enchants, items and potions to use in combat. Now things are a lot more efficient and we can really rip things apart.

[Theomniadept]

Your stepfather is outright wrong and you need to show him this topic. Clerics can basically do whatever they want and healing is one of the least optimal uses of magic, far less useful than just throwing attack rolls. It's an aftermath use of magic, not for combat use other than emergency stabilization. Also, why would a heavy-armored mace-wielding cleric stay in the back?

[Arc_knight25]

In my opinion, potions in combat are a last resort. Come around level 2 or 3, they begin to fall behind. Sure you could spend your turn drinking a potion and possible getting hit while drinking it and then again on the creatures turn and then its just a wasted turn if they did more dmg then the potion healed. Come late levels only if you can get potions of healing would it be of any use.

But as stated with our party we normally have a designated healer, and other characters will off heal if able.

[jjcrpntr]

have him buy a wand, give it to the cleric, then the cleric can do whatever he wants and heal him out of combat to his hearts content.

[MonkeySage]

Our party: human cleric/barbarian(uses greatsword), drow ranger(duel wields shortswords), half elf ranger(composite longbow), dwarven druid(took martial weapon prof. and uses dwarven waraxe), half elf bard(quarterstaff), gray elf diviner(shortbow when out of spells).

The drow and cleric are the front liners, while the bard and druid contribute to in combat healing.

The drow(ingame) lost his abilities and has no LA.

[weckar]

"When thou art human, thou shalt be defined by thy class. Otherwise, by thy race."

Anyway, seems like a decent balance to me. Druid could probably share a bit of the combat burden, but that's really just as the situation demands.

[Red Fel]

First off, healing in combat is bad. Generally speaking, it's a waste of the action economy, and you're better off killing things before they can hurt you than trying to patch up while they continue to hurt you.

Second, there isn't much need for a dedicated healer, when wands and scrolls with a little UMD can do the job out of combat for a really efficient price.

Third, the 3.X Cleric chassis, as others have mentioned, is extremely well-suited to melee combat; between buff spells, BAB and armor proficiencies, it's a fine place for it.

Fourth, evil Clerics can heal too, just not spontaneously. So nyah.

Fifth, anyone who says what a Tier 1 class' "role" is doesn't grasp the concept of a Tier 1 class. A Tier 1 class has the versatility to assume multiple roles, and the power to be brutally effective in any of them. There is a reason that Clerics and Druids, together, are referred to as CoDzillas. Heck, a Wizard with the right spells (and optimized Wizards always have the right spells) can Fighter better than Fighter and Monk better than Monk. That's why they're Tier 1.

[weckar]

Let's not forget it's a game played for fun. We're not playing tournaments here. There's no reason calling a style of play 'bad'. Just 'sub-optimal'.

[Arc_knight25]

I agree that healing in combat can be bad sub-optimal, but it is better to cast a spell normally then to drink a potion. You can cast a spell defensively to not get an AoO.

Also (depends on build and concept of the "healer") it would be more benifital to keep your dmg dealer up as opposed to letting them flounder and have them find a way to heal themselves with something that may not have a better outcome then just having your "healer" do it.

The more people up and swinging, the more dmg that should be going out.

All in all in my eyes when a player says they are going Cleric/Favoured Soul I anticipate that they are going to be healing the party, and will have spells selected to do so. If they say they are going in that class but have other asperations, thats fine to. So long as they can "off heal" and there is another character in party that could also heal as much or more then the "off healer"

(All of this is barring cure wands. This is all more oriented to in combat healing/poisons/diseases/curses and all the other nasty debuffs that can occur during combat)

I personally when starting a campaign sit back to see what the other players decide to make and then i would make a character that could fill any holes in the party make up.

[eggynack]

A character's role is based on what they do, and on what they can do. It has absolutely nothing to do with what flavor you think should be attached to a class. If you build your fighter to be a face (not implausible with zhentarim soldier), or if you want your cleric to lock down the battlefield with BFC's and summons (very much not implausible, cause they can do that), that's your prerogative. The only role that a class plays in what role you have is the extent to which the class' abilities allow you to fill that role. So, if you can build your wizard to be a healer, more power to you, and you're the guy that uses arcane power to heal folks (even if I'd probably just run an archivist). Clerics don't have a role. Characters do, even if the former informs the latter. Also, clerics are total beat sticks.

[Amphetryon]

Stolen Reposted from a guide at MinMaxBoards (Credit to Libertad and OneWinged4ngel):

How to Heal Effectively
(Author's note: I have excluded a few very potent and efficient means of healing because things like the infinite-healing-for-cheap trap and other such things are just plain abusive, and few sane DMs will allow them)


Blessed Bandages (10gp, MiC page 152): 10gp to automatically succeed to stabilize an ally. Can definitely save a friend at very low levels.

Wands of Cure Light Wounds (750gp, Core): The hallmark of efficiency. These wands will dish out an average of 5.5hp a pop, and with 50 charges that will add up to 275 total healing. This wand gains an advantage over Lesser Vigor in two respects: Speed of use, and the fact that Lesser Vigor is a Cleric and Druid only spell, and thus is only available to those classes and UMD users, while Paladins and Rangers and the like will stick to Cure Light Wounds.

Wands of Lesser Vigor (750gp, Spell Compendium Page 229): These are the most efficient healing wands around! You get 11 hp per pop (though it takes a full minute to gain that 11 hp), and you get a total of 550hp of healing for your 750gp.

Healing Belts (750gp, MiC page 110): For 750gp, *anyone* can heal 6d8 hp a day, and even burst heal for 4d8hp as a Standard action with a Touch range, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity like spells and scrolls. Also, with the MiC rules for adding common effects, you don't even need to worry about "keeping the slot free" anymore. You can actually just say, give one of these to everyone in a party of 5 for 30d8 healing per day, and just subsidize your healing costs. This is a great way to keep everyone alive at low levels. As if this weren't good enough, you get feel-good +2 bonus to Heal checks as a bonus.

Artificers can heal very effectively with Greater Healing Armor (MiC page 12), dishing out 3d8+15 healing *twice* usable as a swift action, and even automatically healing a character should they fall unconscious. Best of all, this only costs you 50gp for a total of 6d8+30hp healing, and is available at a very low level.

Wand of Faith Healing (Spell Compendium): It's kinda cheesy, but it's worth mentioning if your DM allows it. It's exactly the same as Cure Light Wounds, except maximized and only usable on people who share your faith (which can easily just be everyone in your party). I personally don't allow this spell as a DM.

Touch of Healing (Reserve Feat, Complete Champion pg 62): This one is for the actual "healers." As long as you have a healing spell of second level or higher ready to cast, you can heal anyone up to half their total hp (but no higher, meaning you have to use more abilities to fully heal them) for free. Basically, for the cost of a feat, you get a lot of free healing.

Summon Nature's Ally IV (Core): Summoning a Unicorn nets you a free set of 3 CLWs, 1 CMW, and a Neutralize Poison. It has a caster level of 5th, so that'll total 5d8+20 points of healing (and a neutralize poison). It's even something a druid can cast spontaneously. Not bad.

Revivify (Cleric 5, Spell Compendium page 176): Revive your dead buddy for 1000gp as a standard action instead of for 5000gp as a much longer action, and best of all *no level loss.* A no brainer really. You just need to be quick about it, acting within 1 round of the victim's death!

Revenance (Cleric 4, Paladin 4, Bard 6): This spell can target any character that died within 1 round / caster level of casting. The subject comes back to life (as if by Raise Dead except with no penalties) and is able to fight (with a +1 morale bonus on attack, damage, and saves against the person who killer her) for 1 minute per level, at the end of which the character dies again. The real seller here is that it has a wider window to cast than Revivify (1 round / level), and moreover the ally will die at the end of the spell (or after being killed again), often allowing you to use Revivify when it would otherwise be impossible (window passed) or too dangerous (in the middle of combat).

Delay Death (Cleric 4, Spell Compendium page 63): As an *Immediate Action*, the ally becomes unable to die from hit point damage (they'll still fall unconscious, they just won't die.) This means that you can instantaneously cast this spell when a buddy takes their final hit, and they won't die for 1 round/level (during which time you can finish the encounter, then heal them up.) Can definitely be a lifesaver.

Tomb Tainted Soul (Feat, Libris Mortis): This handy feat allows you to be healed by negative energy. This means that a living Dread Necromancer can heal you to full as much as she likes with Charnel Touch, and that you can heal yourself with things like Uttercold metamagiced spells and the like.

Amulet of Retributive Healing (2000gp, MiC Page 69): This handy little doodad lets you double up on your healing 3 times per day. When activated (as a swift action) this amulet allows you to cure yourself of an amount of damage equal to however much you cured your buddy of. So, if you cast Heal on your ally, you can activate this item to use a free quickened Heal on yourself. Works with scrolls and everything, too.

Collar of Healing (5000gp, MiC page 90): As an *Immediate action* once per day, heal your animal companion of 50hp and cures the Fatigued or Exhausted conditions. Keep your little buddy going. As an added bonus, it works at any range (as long as you're on the same plane), and lets you know your companion's exact hit point total at all times.

Heal (Core): Heal is a great spell. It really is. It's the healing spell you actually might want to use in fights fairly often. It heals a ton of damage, and it takes away ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned. A laundry list of status effects, some of which are quite deadly in their own right! However, Heal is not a necessary party role in and of itself! Again, you don't actually need *any* in-combat healing to have a highly effective party. Still, when you *do* have a Cleric or Druid around, there's no reason they shouldn't have this ready. If you don't have a Cleric or Druid around, you may want to consider a scroll or two of this for those few situations where you really do want a Heal (i.e., your buddy just got blasted for 100 damage and got stunned to boot).

Divine Ward (Feat, PHB II): This feat will help out the "true healers," allowing them to use Close Range instead of Touch Range for their healing spells on one ally by spending your Turning attempts. You can get a similar results with Divine Metamagic (Reach Spell) (Which happens to be doubly useful for, say, a ranged Slay Living).

Augment Healing (Feat, Complete Divine): Add +2 healing per level of the healing spell cast. Simple and effective for a dedicated healer, should you choose to get one.

False Life (Sor/Wiz 2, Core):
Instead of taking up an action to heal during combat, take an action to heal up to 1 hour / level before combat ever happens! See also, Aid (Cleric 2, PHB)

Empathic Transfer (Egoist 2, Psychic Warrior 2, XPH): This useful power is the standy of healing as a Psionic character. The method is a little unique as opposed to standard methods of healing, but it works just as well. You eliminate anywhere from 2d10 to 10d10 (depending on augment) hp of damage from an ally, and transfer half of that damage onto yourself. Combined with Vigor (Psion 1, Psychic Warrior 1, XPH), and Share Pain (Psion 2, XPH) both shared to your psicrystal through Share Powers, the temporary hit points will absorb all of the damage.

Vigor (Psion 1, Psychic Warrior 1, XPH): This power giives you 5 temporary hit points per power point spent, lasting for a minute per level. It's like healing *before* you ever take damage, and lets you buff beforehand in order to avoid the need to heal in combat.

Amulet of Tears (2300gp, MiC page 70): Another source of temporary hit points, this handy item stores 3 charges per day and grants temporary hit points lasting for 10 minutes based on the number of charges spent. For 1 charge, you gain 12 tmporary hit points, and for 3 charges grants 24 temporary hit points.

Share Pain (Psion 2, XPH): This power transfers half of the damage dealt to you to a willing subject, and thus helps a good deal with damage mitigation. It lasts for an hour per level, so can last for a full day's worth of encounters, and a popular use is to combine it with a Vigor (Psion 1, Psychic Warrior 1, XPH) power shared with your psicrystal and make your psicrystal the subject, effectively doubling the effect of vigor and transferring a good deal of hp damage onto a target that is often a noncombatant.

Shield Other (Cleric 2, Paladin 2, Core): This is much like Share Pain, except it deals half of an ally's damage to you, helping you to protect them. It also adds a +1 resistance bonus to saves and a +1 deflection bonus to AC for the target, as an added plus.

Vampiric Touch (Sor/Wiz 3, Duskblade 3, Core): 1d6 damage per two levels, and gain temporary hp equal to the damage dealt. This spell is notable for combining offensive abilities and effective in-combat "healing" into the same attack. This spell is useful in spell storing weapons, or channeled through a Duskblade's "Arcane Channelling" ability. It is generally *not* a good idea for the average mage to run up into melee and try to touch an enemy with it, because the damage will be low and the temporary hp probably won't save you from a world of pain (unless you have other protective spells and such up). Also note that if you're an Unseen Seer or Arcane Trickster, you can increase the amount healed with sneak attacks!

Bloodstone weapon enhancement (+1, page 29 MiC): Stores and casts Vampiric Touch just like a spell storing weapon, except that it's automatically empowered. Basically, this will deal extra damage on attacks equal to (1d6 per two caster levels)*1.5, *and* give the wielder of the weapon temporary hp equal to the damage dealt. Thus, you're adding to damage and to healing at the same time! See also: Vampiric Touch.

Bodyfeeder weapon enhancement (+3 bonus, XPH): This handy enhancement will grant its wielder temporary hit points equal to the damage dealt by any critical hit he dishes out. With an expanded critical hit range, you can expect this to give a steady stream of temporary hp. This enhancement can be granted by an artificer spending a 3rd level infusion and a small amount of gp. (Note: Though "Wrathful Healing" is almost certainly more effective, it's much less likely to be allowed)


The above list, by its own admission, is not exhaustive, but demonstrates reasonably that one need not play a combat medic in 3.X.

[Siosilvar]

Even in 2e, when 3d8 healing for a spell slot was actually a decent portion of your hit points, clerics were better off in melee than sitting in the back. No point in wasting full armor proficiency, 2/3 THAC0, and decent weapon proficiencies to plink away with a 1d4 sling in between cure spells, after all.

[Devils_Advocate]

Part of the issue is that healing in combat instead of attacking the enemy causes the fight to drag on longer and thus consume more party resources. But even were that not a concern, it's not clear that in-combat healing would be a good idea.

Actually, let me attempt to formalize some of the math a bit. The following is a gross oversimplification, as e.g. hit points are an individual rather than a group resource (which means, come to think, that while individuals are protected from death spirals by the lack of realistic injury, groups are not), but nevertheless...

You want the enemy to run out of hp first so

enemy_hp - rest_of_party_dmg_per_round*rounds - cleric_dmg_per_round*rounds = 0

while

party_hp - enemy_dmg_per_round*rounds + dmg_healed_per_round*rounds > 0

thus

party_hp - enemy_dmg_per_round*rounds + dmg_healed_per_round*rounds > enemy_hp - rest_of_party_dmg_per_round*rounds - cleric_dmg_per_round*rounds

so

party_hp - enemy_hp > enemy_dmg_per_round*rounds - rest_of_party_dmg_per_round*rounds - cleric_dmg_per_round*rounds - dmg_healed_per_round*rounds

so

(party_hp - enemy_hp)/rounds > enemy_dmg_per_round - rest_of_party_dmg_per_round - cleric_dmg_per_round - dmg_healed_per_round

so

cleric_dmg_per_round + dmg_healed_per_round > enemy_dmg_per_round - rest_of_party_dmg_per_round - (party_hp - enemy_hp)/rounds.

So you want to maximize the damage to the enemy you do plus the damage to your teammates that you undo. Thus, so long as you can DEAL more damage with an action than you can HEAL, attacking is better.

And in AD&D, isn't shielding the party Wizard from the enemy a recommended means of increasing party damage output, especially for a character with good AC and HP? So unless there are plenty of other front-liners, that seems like a good idea.

[Firechanter]

Well, I can only support what many others here have already said: the 3.X Cleric is _totally_ a frontline melee class, and in-combat healing should always be only a last resort.

Your ex-stepdad is wrong even in an AD&D environment, and apparently in no place to teach anyone about the game. The 2e Cleric doesn't have his heavy armour just for show. Sure, they don't get bonus attacks and can only use blunt weapons, but their THAC0 isn't half bad (they fight better than Rogues, actually) and there's nothing wrong with a Footman's Flail in the first place.

I play AD&D2 and there our Dwarven Specialty-Priest has the best AC and 2nd-best HP of the entire party. He's definitely our best tank. And last session he really shone when we were beset by a bunch of skeletons and he was the only one with a blunt weapon handy. Not to mention his absurd Earth Elemental summon that hits as an 8th-level Warrior for 4d8 damage.